Author Topic: Future locations for the convention?  (Read 22283 times)

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Offline Kahlan4

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2009, 09:02:14 am »
i agree with dancing tofu, slash5150, and allykat. i'm not on staff or anything, but as a con-goer that has attended since 2006, this year had a lot of downs for me. i'm not saying the entire con was bad, but the lack of space made it hard to get around and to get to any events i wanted to attend, in turn making the con much less fun because i felt like all i could do was stand around in the lobby or outside, or just sit in my hotel room, and there are only so many times you can visit the vendor hall. it's killing me that i don't want to go next year based on lack of space. i hope the suggestion to move to a bigger venue like the convention center is seriously considered for future years of kumoricon. i have heard a lot of veterans and loyal kumoricon goers say they don't want to attend next year based off their experience this year, and it's really sad that patrons and avid fans don't want to attend one of the only conventions around. yes, there is sakuracon, but a lot of us just can't make the trip up to seattle, and i, for one, want to support a convention in oregon. i agree that kumoricon shouldn't limit it's attendees just because some people want it to stay small, that isn't fair at all. kumoricon should be a place where everyone who loves anime and video games can gather and have a great weekend doing what they love with people they can relate to. i know this has all been said, but i just feel the need to back it up. i sincerely hope no one plans to keep the con small and limit people from attending, because like i said, it isn't fair, and gives off this elitist attitude that shouldn't be associated with a convention like this. (there's much more i could ramble on about, but i think i've gone long enough, lol)


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Offline Hoshikage

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2009, 10:21:26 am »
I honestly can't believe I'm reading some of the things I've seen in here. Okay Kumoricon, let's get this straight: You have two drastic choices. These are your only options. 1) Attendance cap. Try and shrink the con so it still fits into a hotel. 2) Make the jump to a convention center. Obviously, I advocate the latter. The only valid reason I'm seeing not to do this is money - and there are ways to get around that, even if it may be difficult. Obviously, other conventions have managed. And every time I've seen an attendance cap go into effect, people have been furious, and the convention has suffered drastically as a result. The only convention I know of that's managed to make it work for a number of years is Otakon - and that's only because there is literally no place else for them to go and everyone knows it. They outgrew every single venue including the Baltimore Convention Center.

Walking to hotels? You really think this is a problem? If you ask any attendee I'm pretty sure that walking back a block or two to one's hotel would be far preferable to trying to wait in line for 20 minutes for an elevator. Again, other conventions do this and it works out. Anime Expo has hotels so far away that people need to take shuttles to get there, and yet people still go to the con and enjoy it. Cosplayers having to go outside is a problem? We already have to! Lines go outside, panels are in a separate building, and you have to go outside and around the building to get the dealer's hall. Bringing in "industry" is a problem? Then why have vendors, or industry guests like voice actors? (Also, for the record - growing into a convention center and turning into "an industry con" is absolutely not the same thing, and trying to automatically equate them is ridiculous. Fanime is big enough to take over a very large chunk (if not all, I haven't checked) of the San Jose convention center, and yet their programming is absolutely crammed with fan panels, contests, and even a dedicated stage that runs all day for fan demonstrations and games.)

The OCC is in fact probably too big for us right now. But you know, there's a solution to that too - don't rent all the space right away! Every time I've seen a con shift over to a convention center, they rent a smaller area first, then expand into more of the space as needed in following years. This way you can also save some money on that crucial first year's move, because it is going to be hard from a financial standpoint.

Lastly, I'm with everyone else who's expressed anger over this concept - if you wanted to keep the con small, it's already too late. Cons are popular. People want to go to them. The only way a con naturally stays small by itself is by an outside forced limit (attendance cap) or if your con sucks and isn't worth going to. You're running Kumori-related events at other times of the year, you're promoting your con in various places, and you've been showing people a pretty good time thus far - that means that people will want to go. Congratulations, people like your con. So you're going to throw that away and tell them that they can't come? Gee, that's brilliant.

I suppose I should apologize for being abrasive, but this just makes me furious. I've been attending anime conventions for 15 years now, and I've seen dozens of events make this same jump successfully that Kumoricon is balking at. It can be done, it has been done by events very similar to Kumoricon, and there is no reason why it can't eventually work here too. I'm not going to waste my time going to a con that's trying to stuff its genie back into its bottle, either - there are plenty of other events that I can go to on a Labor Day weekend that don't try and force attendees to squish into a venue that's far too small and inconvenient for them.

Offline AllyKat

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2009, 10:40:23 am »
While I agree with all the comments and have made many myself lets all remember;

The people who put this convention together, who abide the by-laws and sign the
contracts and delegate the chores and operations to the masses; the ones who make
this run, are just human beings who volunteer, who CHOOSE to do this, who were
elected because they do it well and who continue to provide their services to K-con
because they love it and they want it to be a great convention.

We owe them a lot for years of ingenious manuevering and cooperation with venue's
dealers and guest to make the con what it is today. I could never repay all the hard
work every member of the board has put in to contribute to the success of this Con.

Please remember we are all just concerned and just emphasizing eachothers worries
fears and admonitions of the problems we see the con facing in the future. We do not
dislike the job you are doing, we only want to encourage the job you do in the future
to be one that reflects the needs of all of the Kumori-con attendees. It may not be
the year to take risks on bigger venues, but that year is coming, and we need to
have all the facts to make that change as smooth as possible! Why put off being prepared
for the inevitable jump when we are all so excited to make the survival plan now!?

^_^

~Allykat
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Offline Hidamari

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2009, 11:50:36 am »
After reading all these comments, I think it's neccesar yto make some sort of big change. I feel like the only one who likes the small comfortable atmosphere at Kcon. You feel really safe and know a  percentage of the attendees. It's one of the things I personally really like about KCon.
Sakuracon~

Offline AllyKat

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2009, 12:02:17 pm »
It's a hard balance to make.... I'd love the idea of a smaller con too... and many conventions are popping up (rumors of a Salem con, whaaat??) to fill that niche, but K-con just has too big a following to provide that for us anymore... you want to see the best dressed and the most faces and the coolest parties...Kumori-con is the best that oregon has to offer! But it still has that heartfelt hometown feel to it's panels and staff. I'm sure if we all hopped down to Cali and went to Anime Expo, none of us would consider Kumori-con anymore than a mini-convention in comparison, be we are the big fish in the columbia river now and we gotta recognize that.

We just can't forget that Portland is not a "big city". While it is the biggest city in oregon as far as consumer market options and buildings and traffic and schools and everything else, it still has a community feel to it. We can keep Kumo the same way... keep it feeling small while playing the big boys game. It's all in the how and the prep!

Don't stress over this right now guys.... as we are not the ones making the decisions... and the ones making the decisions are currently passed out in there homes (hopefully) or on the way to do so (probably) this is just one of those things that will take time to become a reality and will not change con life as drastically as you might imagine.

~Allykat
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Offline Hoshikage

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2009, 12:16:39 pm »
After having a chance to cool off a little, I apologize for posting in the heat of anger and for sounding antagonistic to the staff. I don't want to sound like I do not appreciate all the hard work the staff put into the con, nor that I don't understand that it is impossible to please everyone all the time. I just feel very strongly that Kumoricon must move to a larger venue - 4,000+ people is already simply not a small con anymore. And I had such incredible difficulties with the hotel this year (not the staff, I should note, just the layout and how impossible it was to get around) that the idea of trying to force the con to stay in such circumstances makes me feel extremely unwelcome. However, I do sincerely apologize for taking my frustrations out on the staff.

Offline Rathany

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2009, 12:20:48 pm »
I am not saying that I want to keep it small.  Keep in mind that those of us who are highers up have to work all year long on this.  A larger con is an order of magnitude more work.  If you want to get Kumoricon as big as Sakuracon, then you need to start working on that.  

We had hoped to grow by another 50% this year.  This didn't happen.  

I am not trying to make this 'my personal con', I am just stating facts.  We have a hard enough time finding people who want to coordiante, manage and direct a con at our current size.  If you want Kumoricon to be able to handle growth, you need to find people who will step up and take on these jobs.  These are not jobs that start at con, these are jobs that require work all year long.

Also, yes cons will grow, but don't make this your personal con either.  Whether we stay fan and workshop focused or change to industry focused is a big change.  It's going to take much more tha a few people on forums for us to make that change.  It would take a huge call to action from both our attendees and staff.  And, also, with the industry hurting like it is, this is a bad time to go industry focused.  Remember Central Park Media?  Remember Geneon?  Gone.
Remember ADV?  Heard what happened with them last week?
Some of the surviving companies I had to work with had laid off up to 2/3rds of thier employees.

Before anyone goes into 'nerd rage' please be aware of all the aspects of the situation.  
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Offline Rathany

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2009, 12:30:45 pm »
After having a chance to cool off a little, I apologize for posting in the heat of anger and for sounding antagonistic to the staff. I don't want to sound like I do not appreciate all the hard work the staff put into the con, nor that I don't understand that it is impossible to please everyone all the time. I just feel very strongly that Kumoricon must move to a larger venue - 4,000+ people is already simply not a small con anymore. And I had such incredible difficulties with the hotel this year (not the staff, I should note, just the layout and how impossible it was to get around) that the idea of trying to force the con to stay in such circumstances makes me feel extremely unwelcome. However, I do sincerely apologize for taking my frustrations out on the staff.

We all need to vent from time to time.  Some people have very good reasons for wanting answers.  I am sorry if anything I said last night was unclear or lead people to the wrong impression.  Keep in mind I was working on loading our equip out of the hotel, into the locker and driving the truck drivers home until after midnight.  But, I felt that I needed to get on at least a little bit and start the process of trying to get certain bits of info out there and responding to concerns :)
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Offline AllyKat

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2009, 12:57:30 pm »
@ Rathany:

I too am sorry for jumping to conclusions on your statement, I mis-interpreted your words to mean you and the rest of the staff really just want Kumori-con to stay a small little convention, which I personally feel (though others may not) is a unrealistic desire.

I actually am really appreciative of you for taking the time after (and during) all of the breakdown and meetings and travel home to discuss this with us as it gives us the ACTUAL information we are so desperately looking for, in such as logistics and capacity to do what many of us believe will need to be done in the coming years.

I'm glad we have people on staff who take this seriously enough, and who take Convention-goers themsevles seriously enough to discuss this rationally with us and allow for our two cents to matter when setting up the convention. I for one fully intend on joining the staff as soon as possible and getting my hands dirty full tilt in response to the clear need at this convention. You can't run a con on pocky and ramune alone (it takes some mana and skittles to make it through a few parts of the days!) so I think it's high time I got active in my anime fan community and helped make this convention what people want it to be! (whatever that is)

GO TEAM K-CON!!!

~Allykat
2009 - Attendee
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2011 - Director of Publicity
2012 - Director of Publicity
2013 - Facilities Liaison
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Offline Rathany

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2009, 01:09:10 pm »
@ Rathany:

I too am sorry for jumping to conclusions on your statement, I mis-interpreted your words to mean you and the rest of the staff really just want Kumori-con to stay a small little convention, which I personally feel (though others may not) is a unrealistic desire.

I actually am really appreciative of you for taking the time after (and during) all of the breakdown and meetings and travel home to discuss this with us as it gives us the ACTUAL information we are so desperately looking for, in such as logistics and capacity to do what many of us believe will need to be done in the coming years.

I'm glad we have people on staff who take this seriously enough, and who take Convention-goers themsevles seriously enough to discuss this rationally with us and allow for our two cents to matter when setting up the convention. I for one fully intend on joining the staff as soon as possible and getting my hands dirty full tilt in response to the clear need at this convention. You can't run a con on pocky and ramune alone (it takes some mana and skittles to make it through a few parts of the days!) so I think it's high time I got active in my anime fan community and helped make this convention what people want it to be! (whatever that is)

GO TEAM K-CON!!!

~Allykat

Awesome :)  I am part of the group that joined Kcon after the problems of '06 for those sorts of reasons.  I love being staff.  I really do. 
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Offline Hoshikage

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2009, 01:09:35 pm »
Also, yes cons will grow, but don't make this your personal con either.  Whether we stay fan and workshop focused or change to industry focused is a big change.  It's going to take much more tha a few people on forums for us to make that change.  It would take a huge call to action from both our attendees and staff.  And, also, with the industry hurting like it is, this is a bad time to go industry focused.

Okay, I still don't understand this part. I am truly not trying to start a fight here, I just don't understand why the issue of size somehow keeps turning into an industry-con vs. fan-con thing. Size and industry focus are really not the same thing at all. Anime Expo isn't an industry show because it's big, it's an industry show because that's what they've chosen to focus their programming on. The con can get a whole lot bigger and still keep its focus on the fans. Kumoricon already has an excellent handle on fan-oriented programming - things like the Creation Station aren't things I see at other cons. The number of attendees going up won't automatically mean that the con turns industry-focused. To hold up Fanime as an example again, they literally had so many fan panels this year that they were debating on their forums methods like adding another entire room for panels, or extending the panel hours later into the night. And they're a lot bigger than Kumoricon. If they can do it, we should be able to, too.

Offline Radien

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2009, 01:33:27 pm »
I'm not going to comment on potential new options for future venues, but as a staffer since 2003 and a convention-goer since 2000, I wanted to put a few things into perspective.


1. The Marriott

Anyone who attended Kumori Con the year it was at the Marriott should be cringing in terror at the idea of returning there at our size. Yes, we were double-booked the last time we were there, but the attendance problems run pretty deep. You know the elevator clogging from this year? Expect something even worse at the Marriott. Worse yet, their stairs aren't designed for two-way traffic; we're only allowed to use them to exit the building.


2. Threatening not to come

Plenty of people are saying they won't be back next year due to issues X, Y, and Z. This is certainly your right, but make sure your response is targeted at the right party.

First of all, remember that we are not a business. Our end goal is to have a better convention and to make the fans happy. Getting bigger and having more funds are both means to that end.  Additionally, rapid attendance growth is very difficult for the staff to handle, despite how cool it is to be able to recite big numbers.  If people are upset, our growth may slow, but it's unlikely attendance will actually shrink.  So, if you don't come next year, we will miss YOU far more than we miss your money or your contribution to the attendance number.

Secondly, remember where the money is going. We have a contract for next year and the convention directors say that breaking it would destroy the con. Not coming to Kumori Con 2010 solely because of the venue would hurt Kumori Con just as much as it would hurt the Hilton.  I have an alternate suggestion: try staying at a different hotel.  You'd be voting with your feet, but you'd also be enjoying the con without having to take an extra 15-30 minutes every time you go back to your room.


3. "Bigger = Better"

There's really no reason to go into "nerd rage" over this. Kumori Con is going to continue to grow. The question is simply how quickly it will be allowed to expand.  Slow growth is frustrating, yes, but fast growth can be destructive. Let me name a few reasons why.

* Money. Every year has to be funded with money earned from the last con year (plus a little bit that flows in from pre-reg).  If we grow too fast, we won't have enough funds for a good con.

* Staff. We're currently understaffed. When we grow a lot in one year, we get a lot of first-year attendees. This is great, but first-years rarely volunteer for staff. The smaller our staff, the more chaotic the con becomes... and the more often you have to deal with hotel security instead of fellow fans.

* Equipment. Particularly sound equipment. Even if we have the money, figuring out equipment is hard. We have to find staffers who know how to run it, or the equipment is wasted. The faster a con grows, the less likely we'll be able to keep up with the needs of main events.





Here are my views in a nutshell: if Kumori Con can be big AND a good con, then let's go ahead and become big. If becoming big will HURT the quality of the con, we should slow (not stop, slow) our growth until we are capable of handling larger numbers.

Yes, moving to the convention center is an inevitable eventuality, but that doesn't mean that doing so in 2011 will make sense. Choosing a hotel is a lot like buying a pair of shoes for a growing kid: you choose according to what will fit best for the next year or so.


Edit: This is my 1000th post. Interesting.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:40:57 pm by Radien »
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Offline BigGuy

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2009, 04:12:59 pm »
I would agree about the convention center, because this years con was huge, and as I heard, on Saturday, they couldn't accept anyone else in, including people who Pre-Redged, and they had to refund the pre redged people.
I was telling people that we had to accept all the pre registration people and we had capped the at con registration. If that was not the case I needed to know about it.
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Offline AllyKat

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2009, 04:19:01 pm »
Hey, since I've got you here in this discussion... what were the actual end numbers... total attendance at the con...
I know it was said at the closing ceremonies but amidst the cheers and yells... I think I got the wrong number... I
heard 4,480something.... which sounds... inccorrect....

~Allykat
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Offline ~boogiepop~

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2009, 04:32:25 pm »
Secondly, remember where the money is going. We have a contract for next year and the convention directors say that breaking it would destroy the con. Not coming to Kumori Con 2010 solely because of the venue would hurt Kumori Con just as much as it would hurt the Hilton.  I have an alternate suggestion: try staying at a different hotel.  You'd be voting with your feet, but you'd also be enjoying the con without having to take an extra 15-30 minutes every time you go back to your room.

I've just been reading what people had to say and not contributing at all but staying at a different hotel wouldn't really fix the problems a lot of people had. I trucked on home every night after the convention but still had to deal with hotel staff being jerks, over crowding, and the lack of organization at the con.

As much as I would love to throw my money at Kumoricon to help it out, I don't have the type of income to do that. Looking at the other threads, I know I'm not the only one who is disappointed that they could have had the same fun playing around the blocks outside of the convention and saved some money.

I want to attend Kumoricon next year, but I just can't do it if it's at the Hilton. But hey, theres another thread going around that it might shut down, so I can just hope for that.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 04:33:09 pm by ~boogiepop~ »
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Offline Radien

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2009, 06:59:50 pm »
I've just been reading what people had to say and not contributing at all but staying at a different hotel wouldn't really fix the problems a lot of people had. I trucked on home every night after the convention but still had to deal with hotel staff being jerks, over crowding, and the lack of organization at the con.

As much as I would love to throw my money at Kumoricon to help it out, I don't have the type of income to do that. Looking at the other threads, I know I'm not the only one who is disappointed that they could have had the same fun playing around the blocks outside of the convention and saved some money.

Staying at another hotel won't immediately solve all of your problems, no, but if you happen to be someone who doesn't want to skip Kumori Con but wants to make a statement against the Hilton, it's the best way to go. Personally, in ten years I've never been accosted at any northwest con in a way that would offend me enough to skip the next year. Of course, your mileage may vary.

If you just can't afford the con, I certainly don't hold it against you. It's amazing how much people scrimp together to come to con even during these hard economic times. We're grateful for whomever we do get.

I want to attend Kumoricon next year, but I just can't do it if it's at the Hilton. But hey, theres another thread going around that it might shut down, so I can just hope for that.

Could you please link me to that thread?

I find that with most of the Kumori Con board of directors posting very regularly on the forums, there is no reason to rely on rumors. Without staff confirmation, a rumor's reliability is generally very, very low. People very frequently misread posts and then start passing it around as fact. That's what happens when a thread gets 5+ pages of replies in one day.

Word to the wise: when you read unconfirmed news, check the original poster's staff position. If they're not at least a director or manager, check their sources. If they have no sources, don't believe it until further notice.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 07:02:46 pm by Radien »
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Offline Darknight2433

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2009, 07:03:03 pm »
They are referring to how the Hilton is shutting down for around 4 weeks over an amount of time over the next few months due to lack of money, is likely what's up. Surely you must have heard of that?

Offline Rathany

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2009, 07:04:42 pm »

I find that with most of the Kumori Con board of directors posting very regularly on the forums, there is no reason to listen to rumors. Their reliability is generally very, very low. People very frequently misread posts and then start passing it around as fact. That's what happens when a thread gets 5+ pages of replies in one day.

Word to the wise: when you read a breaking rumor, check the poster's staff position. If they're not at least a director or manager, check their sources. If they have no sources, don't believe it until further notice.

Very good points.  That is why I am trying to address as much as I can as fast as I can ;)
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Offline ~boogiepop~

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2009, 07:15:30 pm »
I was mistaken. I was thinking it was going to shut down forever, but that's what I get for reading threads in the middle of the night in a NyQuil induced haze.
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11163.0 There's the thread if you were still curious about it still though.
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Offline Radien

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Re: Future locations for the convention?
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2009, 07:37:19 pm »
They are referring to how the Hilton is shutting down for around 4 weeks over an amount of time over the next few months due to lack of money, is likely what's up. Surely you must have heard of that?

Yeah, I did hear about that. :) I just didn't make the connection between that and the rumor in question. And right now I'm attempting to stick to the most important threads.


Very good points.  That is why I am trying to address as much as I can as fast as I can ;)

Yeah, thanks. Phew.


I was mistaken. I was thinking it was going to shut down forever, but that's what I get for reading threads in the middle of the night in a NyQuil induced haze.
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11163.0 There's the thread if you were still curious about it still though.

No worries. No harm no foul. :) You didn't state it as fact, which is where the damage occurs.
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Kumori Con 2010 Cosplays:

Link (The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess)
Apollo Justice