I'm curious to know the logistics of a convention at the Convention Centre itself...
I've heard people arbitrarily throw the number 8,000 around as a base for how many
attendees we'd need before we can book the convention centre and still be fiscally
responsible. I'm curious as to the comparison in price, seeing as the requirements of
security, and rule abiding, contract issues and creating exclusive deals (non-compete
contracts and the like) for con-hotel room discounts seems to me to be relatively high,
I would wonder that, with the amount of hotels located so close by on the fareless
square max line... what kind of increase would be required to have the con at the
Convention centre? A bump in Reg prices? 40 to start? Going to 60? for full reign of
the Convention Centre (or at least a good chunk of space in it?) and the ability to
choose our favorite hotels... that may be the way to go... looking at the occ's website
the options are:
Inn @ the convention centre - 97 rooms
La Quinta @ convention centre - 79 rooms
Red Lion Convention Centre - 174 rooms
Shillo Inn @ the Convention Centre - 40 rooms
Marriot Residence Inn - 168 rooms
Courtyard by Marriot - 256 rooms
And clearly the choice everyone wants.....
The Double Tree @ Llyod Centre - 480 rooms
Thats a grand total of 1295 rooms available in the area of the
Convention center, all within 5 blocks of the convention centre,
almost ALL of which are on that max line that shoots right by the
Convention centre itself!
With almost double the room availability in the area, and maybe
just a bit more walking around time, it's clear that this is the option
for the future, the question is, just how feasible for our con is it.
Clearly we are at that in-between stage where we just aren't quite
large enough to justify the OCC but we are far to big to really work
within a Hotel... these next few years will really determine us and it's
time to start planning conventions right way, if only behind the scenes
so as to keep things from becoming too much too late.
(This post took me way to long to write... but finding the room ammounts
and making sure they were all within relatively peaceful walking/max distance
of the convention space made it a bit of a hunt! ^_^ )
~Allykat
as I kept hearing, they had to actually refuse a lot of people (pre redges mostly) because we had already reached our max by 12 on Saturday... So the way I'm seeing it is, if they had to refuse entry to people who have pre redged, that means that we are far to big already for a hotel.I'm fairly certain we weren't turning away prereg folks, because we it'd seem like we couldn't turn them away, as they have already paid for their registration. I know we stopped at con reg on Saturday because of this, though.
as I kept hearing, they had to actually refuse a lot of people (pre reges mostly) because we had already reached our max by 12 on Saturday... So the way I'm seeing it is, if they had to refuse entry to people who have pre reged, that means that we are far to big already for a hotel.I'm fairly certain we weren't turning away prereg folks, because we it'd seem like we couldn't turn them away, as they have already paid for their registration. I know we stopped at con reg on Saturday because of this, though.
The biggest thing with the convention center I can see is we don't get the discounts on the event rooms plus the hotel rooms. Which also means it will be harder to get discounts on the hotel room rates because we aren't using the hotel event rooms. But that is just my speculation with a lack of knowledge on how the convention center stuff is done.That changes from convention center to convention center. Some have attached hotels which offer discounts with center bookings, others have attached hotels that don't. Some have standing deals with nearby hotels, others don't.
One of the complaints with the Oregon Convention Center is that the distance between it and the hotels is too far for late night con-goers to have a reasonable blanket of safety (walking).
I was thinking about it, most hotels have shuttle services for airports; figuring the volumes of guests showing up for the convention they should be able to accommodate a shuttle to run between the two. Even if they have to hire on an extra body to run it. So the issue of safety isn't there should such a thing become reality.
I know it's out of the question, but I still would love for Kumoricon to return to the Vancouver Hilton. That was the best year of Kumoricon in my opinion, in every way. The hotel was large, it was directly across the street from an enormous and spacious park, it was not in the heart of a consistently-crowded urban district. That location had everything going for it, and I think even the increased numbers would function better there than at the Downtown Portland Hilton.
But, I know this is useless talking, I just wanted to express how much I loved that location. I'd marry it if I were a building (because only a building can marry another building, lol). ;D
I agree with this, being that I live in that area. (By the way, it actually is just in the outskirt of the city's "consistently-crowded urban district.)
The Esther Short Park was perfect for photoshoots and the ever-fun Glomp Circle.
The area has enough small fast-food places to eat.
C-Tran and Trimet have easy access to the Hilton.
Vancouver is far-less populated than that of Portland, yet it is just across the river.
Alternate hotels are nearby.
And that Hilton is very spacious!
Though I'd prefer the DoubleTree, I cannot and would not turn down Vancouver Hilton. (Also, it was my first Kumoricon. <3)
If the Convention Center is used, the staff should look into how Sakuracon gets their surrounding hotels to offer room discounts for those attending their convention.
If the Convention Center is used, the staff should look into how Sakuracon gets their surrounding hotels to offer room discounts for those attending their convention.
I agree, I also want to point out that the argument of late night travel is moot to a point.
This convention utilized 2 different hotel towers aproximately 1 block away from eachother (well
caddycorner to be specific but, across the street at the least) And while people said there were
leering bums and creepy downtown portlanders, from what I gather of previous cons at the doubletree
this was limited in that area. I have been to several concerts/events at the convention centre
and the rose garden, many of which have gotten out in the late hours. With the massive amount of
con-goers heading back from events to there rooms, plus Yojimbo staff itself, I don't see why this
would be different from any other con that occurs at a convention centre.
Basically we are arguing symantics. Some people prefer the small-venue hotel convention for
the convenience of centralization and security of location. That is valid and understandable.
Unfortunately Kumori-con is too big to cater to that brand of con-goer any longer. We are a convention
of great stature in the Oregon-State area and as such we have to provide for that fan base.
Concessions, such as having events directly occuring where you are sleeping may have to be made.
However in the long run you are looking at a convention that has more space, more control and
a better chance to grow and attract the kind of acts and exhibits as well as guests that we want
for K-con.
We really honestly don't have a choice in this. It's either stifle the growth of the con (which is truly
a maddeningly ridiculous concept) or move to a larger, though less compact venue.
People who are afraid of walking from convention centre to the MAXIMUM 5 block/2 stop max ride
hotels can simply make absolutely sure they are first to pre-book a room at the convention centre's
own hotel or one of the other hotels literally RIGHT ACCROSS THE STREET from the centre.
I really don't know where any one got the idea that it is such a long walk from hotel to convention hall
but it is simply not true. It wouldn't make sense for them to build a convention centre so far from
the hotels so why would this be an issue? Minors shouldn't be walking around so late at night without
a parent to accompany them anyway... Sakura-con requires under 18ers to have a gaurdian at all times..
this may be why.
While I'm not suggesting K-con become a mirror of Sakura-con, (I personally feel Portland is a much
friendlier and safer town then seattle) I think we need to all calm down and look at this logically, you
cannot have your cake (which is a lie) and defeat gladis too. We have to solve the issues at hand and
hope that through extensive planning and preparation the Convention Centre in Portland will provide us
the tools we need to pull this off. It seems just by being a normal civilian I can go on their website and
surf some basic information about hosting an event there, they seem very well informed on what people
need and are VERY willing to help you in planning any specific type of convention. Perhaps in the comming
months or year we could send delegations of the Kumo-con staff to do walkthroughs and meetings
with OCC staff and show them pictures of previous cons, videos or informationals on previous pannels,
exhibits, dealers halls and the like and see what they say is our best option. They may try to pitch you
a big sale, but in so doing they'll also prove to us whether or not they understand the concept of
an anime convention enough to help us make ours extremely fortuitous.
By the way, I appreciate the praise of my research, when I get into something, I tend to go overboard...
you'll find that if an issue arises, even if it isn't my place to figure out the answer, I enjoy the thrill of trying.
Heck, if I had permission I'd prolly go down to the OCC this weekend and see if I couldn't get a meeting
with someone who could walk me through there process for convention hall expos and meetings.
These people do this all day, for a job that they get money for, I imagine they have to be good at it or
they wouldn't last very long, and showing us that they know how to take care of us convinces us to
book with them... so they have to be real about it or people would start to talk about how bad the OCC is
at hosting events. I simply think it would be interesting to take a day trip out and see what is what on the
convention centre.
However, this is all assuming that K-con staff members haven't already done this, found things to be not
what we need at this time and moved on. They don't really have to tell us every little detail of every
little scavanger hunt they go on for the con. Alot of what they do is behind the scenes, the end result is
all we really see....
Food for thought at least!
~Allykat
Marriott's capacity is rather small. we were there a few years back and using half the space our cap was 1000. (it really sucked having to be the one turning people away)There is a new marriott down the street from the old one. Not sure what the space would be if we used both, friend stayed at the new one for wedding and the rooms there are WAY nice.
I would agree about the convention center, because this years con was huge, and as I heard, on Saturday, they couldn't accept anyone else in, including people who Pre-Redged, and they had to refund the pre redged people.
I did some research, and it turns out that the OCC really is the only way to go bigger, and it's a lot bigger. You're maybe wondering how big?
1. 25% more event space than Sakuracon.
2. it's all on two floors, meaning less escalators, and the hallways are beautifully wide and spacious.
It is cited as the LARGEST EVENT SPACE IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. It is BIG. The expo center is about half as big. Again, it's bigger than the biggest venue in Washington; the one that hosts PAX, and I'll leave it to you to check out their ridiculous numbers.
Now, I think one thing people are neglecting to consider is that we will experience a huge burst when we make that jump (I say when because we will either cut ourselves off where we stand, or we will move there. There is no middle ground within 100 miles unless you count the expo center, which we couldn't work with because it's made for expositions. The next best space is in bend, with a 35k grand ballroom and 10k more total square footage of event space than our current hotel, but 200 less rooms.)
I did some research, and it turns out that the OCC really is the only way to go bigger, and it's a lot bigger. You're maybe wondering how big?
1. 25% more event space than Sakuracon.
2. it's all on two floors, meaning less escalators, and the hallways are beautifully wide and spacious.
It is cited as the LARGEST EVENT SPACE IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. It is BIG. The expo center is about half as big. Again, it's bigger than the biggest venue in Washington; the one that hosts PAX, and I'll leave it to you to check out their ridiculous numbers.
Now, I think one thing people are neglecting to consider is that we will experience a huge burst when we make that jump (I say when because we will either cut ourselves off where we stand, or we will move there. There is no middle ground within 100 miles unless you count the expo center, which we couldn't work with because it's made for expositions. The next best space is in bend, with a 35k grand ballroom and 10k more total square footage of event space than our current hotel, but 200 less rooms.). And by huge burst, I mean huge. Can I throw out an accurate figure? Not really, but I can honestly say I'd personally expect the con to double in size.
I did some research, and it turns out that the OCC really is the only way to go bigger, and it's a lot bigger. You're maybe wondering how big?
1. 25% more event space than Sakuracon.
2. it's all on two floors, meaning less escalators, and the hallways are beautifully wide and spacious.
It is cited as the LARGEST EVENT SPACE IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. It is BIG. The expo center is about half as big. Again, it's bigger than the biggest venue in Washington; the one that hosts PAX, and I'll leave it to you to check out their ridiculous numbers.
Now, I think one thing people are neglecting to consider is that we will experience a huge burst when we make that jump (I say when because we will either cut ourselves off where we stand, or we will move there. There is no middle ground within 100 miles unless you count the expo center, which we couldn't work with because it's made for expositions. The next best space is in bend, with a 35k grand ballroom and 10k more total square footage of event space than our current hotel, but 200 less rooms.). And by huge burst, I mean huge. Can I throw out an accurate figure? Not really, but I can honestly say I'd personally expect the con to double in size.
Let's hope you can do that soon, cuz unless something positive comes out of this probable location move, we're gonna lose maybe more than half our regular attendees for next year if we decide to use the Portland Hilton for next year's con...... :-\
So we're not Oregons Biggest Anime Convention?
We're Portland/Salems/Eugenes Anime convention?
I didn't know Kumoricon didn't want people to come, just to keep it a smaller convention. The con doesn't have to pitch to people across the U.S just to get thousdands of more people. Either Kumoricon is going to get bigger and we're going to have to move to a bigger venue, or staff can keep turning people away, and keep it a small crowded con which will turn people off like and have them not want to come back, like I've read about so many times in the thread about people not coming back for 2010 because of the hilton.
I did some research, and it turns out that the OCC really is the only way to go bigger, and it's a lot bigger. You're maybe wondering how big?
1. 25% more event space than Sakuracon.
2. it's all on two floors, meaning less escalators, and the hallways are beautifully wide and spacious.
It is cited as the LARGEST EVENT SPACE IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. It is BIG. The expo center is about half as big. Again, it's bigger than the biggest venue in Washington; the one that hosts PAX, and I'll leave it to you to check out their ridiculous numbers.
Now, I think one thing people are neglecting to consider is that we will experience a huge burst when we make that jump (I say when because we will either cut ourselves off where we stand, or we will move there. There is no middle ground within 100 miles unless you count the expo center, which we couldn't work with because it's made for expositions. The next best space is in bend, with a 35k grand ballroom and 10k more total square footage of event space than our current hotel, but 200 less rooms.)
I am just not confident on this attendance jump. We'd have cosplayers with no option but to have to wear outfits outside.
And, quite frankly, from what I hear most of our staff don't want to staff a huge convention. We already have Sak. We <3 Sak, but we don't want to be them. Having the two major anime cons in the Pac. NW of the US be different benefits everyone. If any of our staff want to work on a giant convention at a convention center, they go up and work on Sak as well as Kcon.
Based on the fact that hotel contract info must remain private, I don't know whether or not we can disclose what quotes we have from the convention center, but I can tell you that they are very, very high. I am not kidding about gutting out budget.
Also, we cannot count on an attendence leap. We can't spend money betting on making it back.
We have gotten some data that shows that we might already be hitting saturation on our target audience. We don't really draw people from more than 3 hours away. We're not Sak or Otakon who draw from all over the country, and then some.
To have that kind of draw we'd have to start becoming a more heavily industry-focused con, and heck, if I want to work industry con I'll become a formal staffer down at Comic Con in San Diego instead of just pitching in here or there ;)
Marriott's capacity is rather small. we were there a few years back and using half the space our cap was 1000. (it really sucked having to be the one turning people away)
I am just not confident on this attendance jump. We'd have cosplayers with no option but to have to wear outfits outside.
And, quite frankly, from what I hear most of our staff don't want to staff a huge convention. We already have Sak. We <3 Sak, but we don't want to be them. Having the two major anime cons in the Pac. NW of the US be different benefits everyone. If any of our staff want to work on a giant convention at a convention center, they go up and work on Sak as well as Kcon.
Based on the fact that hotel contract info must remain private, I don't know whether or not we can disclose what quotes we have from the convention center, but I can tell you that they are very, very high. I am not kidding about gutting out budget.
Also, we cannot count on an attendence leap. We can't spend money betting on making it back.
We have gotten some data that shows that we might already be hitting saturation on our target audience. We don't really draw people from more than 3 hours away. We're not Sak or Otakon who draw from all over the country, and then some.
To have that kind of draw we'd have to start becoming a more heavily industry-focused con, and heck, if I want to work industry con I'll become a formal staffer down at Comic Con in San Diego instead of just pitching in here or there ;)
After having a chance to cool off a little, I apologize for posting in the heat of anger and for sounding antagonistic to the staff. I don't want to sound like I do not appreciate all the hard work the staff put into the con, nor that I don't understand that it is impossible to please everyone all the time. I just feel very strongly that Kumoricon must move to a larger venue - 4,000+ people is already simply not a small con anymore. And I had such incredible difficulties with the hotel this year (not the staff, I should note, just the layout and how impossible it was to get around) that the idea of trying to force the con to stay in such circumstances makes me feel extremely unwelcome. However, I do sincerely apologize for taking my frustrations out on the staff.
@ Rathany:
I too am sorry for jumping to conclusions on your statement, I mis-interpreted your words to mean you and the rest of the staff really just want Kumori-con to stay a small little convention, which I personally feel (though others may not) is a unrealistic desire.
I actually am really appreciative of you for taking the time after (and during) all of the breakdown and meetings and travel home to discuss this with us as it gives us the ACTUAL information we are so desperately looking for, in such as logistics and capacity to do what many of us believe will need to be done in the coming years.
I'm glad we have people on staff who take this seriously enough, and who take Convention-goers themsevles seriously enough to discuss this rationally with us and allow for our two cents to matter when setting up the convention. I for one fully intend on joining the staff as soon as possible and getting my hands dirty full tilt in response to the clear need at this convention. You can't run a con on pocky and ramune alone (it takes some mana and skittles to make it through a few parts of the days!) so I think it's high time I got active in my anime fan community and helped make this convention what people want it to be! (whatever that is)
GO TEAM K-CON!!!
~Allykat
Also, yes cons will grow, but don't make this your personal con either. Whether we stay fan and workshop focused or change to industry focused is a big change. It's going to take much more tha a few people on forums for us to make that change. It would take a huge call to action from both our attendees and staff. And, also, with the industry hurting like it is, this is a bad time to go industry focused.
I would agree about the convention center, because this years con was huge, and as I heard, on Saturday, they couldn't accept anyone else in, including people who Pre-Redged, and they had to refund the pre redged people.I was telling people that we had to accept all the pre registration people and we had capped the at con registration. If that was not the case I needed to know about it.
Secondly, remember where the money is going. We have a contract for next year and the convention directors say that breaking it would destroy the con. Not coming to Kumori Con 2010 solely because of the venue would hurt Kumori Con just as much as it would hurt the Hilton. I have an alternate suggestion: try staying at a different hotel. You'd be voting with your feet, but you'd also be enjoying the con without having to take an extra 15-30 minutes every time you go back to your room.
I've just been reading what people had to say and not contributing at all but staying at a different hotel wouldn't really fix the problems a lot of people had. I trucked on home every night after the convention but still had to deal with hotel staff being jerks, over crowding, and the lack of organization at the con.
As much as I would love to throw my money at Kumoricon to help it out, I don't have the type of income to do that. Looking at the other threads, I know I'm not the only one who is disappointed that they could have had the same fun playing around the blocks outside of the convention and saved some money.
I want to attend Kumoricon next year, but I just can't do it if it's at the Hilton. But hey, theres another thread going around that it might shut down, so I can just hope for that.
I find that with most of the Kumori Con board of directors posting very regularly on the forums, there is no reason to listen to rumors. Their reliability is generally very, very low. People very frequently misread posts and then start passing it around as fact. That's what happens when a thread gets 5+ pages of replies in one day.
Word to the wise: when you read a breaking rumor, check the poster's staff position. If they're not at least a director or manager, check their sources. If they have no sources, don't believe it until further notice.
They are referring to how the Hilton is shutting down for around 4 weeks over an amount of time over the next few months due to lack of money, is likely what's up. Surely you must have heard of that?
Very good points. That is why I am trying to address as much as I can as fast as I can ;)
I was mistaken. I was thinking it was going to shut down forever, but that's what I get for reading threads in the middle of the night in a NyQuil induced haze.
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11163.0 (http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11163.0) There's the thread if you were still curious about it still though.