2008 January 12th GM Minutes

[staze]

Altonimbus Entertainment General Meeting
January 12th, 2008

Presiding: Michael Andrews, President
Minutes Taker: Ryan Stasel, Secretary
Board in attendance:
Michael Andrews, President
Dawn Hewitt, Vice President
Ryan Stasel, Secretary
Eric Teitzel, Treasurer
Rian Mueller, Facilities Liaison
Jaki Hunt, Programming
Jess Shelton, Operations
Jeff Tyrrill, Publicity
Nate Clampitt, Relations Assistant

Meeting called to order.

In the future, when we have internet access, we’ll be openning skype sessions so that people that are geographically challenged can take part in the meeting via skype. This will be happening for the February meeting.

Programming:
We have panelist forms up on the website. Anyone who wants to do a panel, please see Jaki.
Still need staff, needs cosplay staff. Please see her.
Manga library, we still need donations. The more the better.
Other events, but those will be covered later.
Questions: none.

Operations:
Not that much new.
Small change in managers. Former registration manager has stepped down. New manager is Andrew Dill.
Operations Budget was approved. Nice new equipment coming in.
Manager trainings starting this month, and general staff trainings will be happening starting in march.

Facilities:
Hotel code can now be released: JPA. Rates will be available online. Put that code into the special accounts.
Code is valid for reservations for Thursday through Monday nights. Fewer rooms available those nights, so it may be more difficult to get rooms for those nights. If you have problems, please contact Rian Mueller so he can expand the block.
If you’ve already reserved your room, and got a cheaper rate, please contact the hotel and have them add you to our block, so we can best fulfill our room night agreement.
Parking at the hotel for the convention will be $5 per night, or $3 per day. Rian will look up the difference between what hours qualify for each.
If you did park at the hotel today, please come pick up coupon.
Hotel is working on an addendum for the hotel contact that was signed, hopefully working out all our issues.
Any costs might have an additional 20% service charge, but he’s not sure what that’ll be charged on.
Rian has appointed Meg Uhde as his assistant. She’s working on park reservations. Please contact her if you have any park related events that you’d like to put on.
Rian is working on getting information from several hotels for 09. They’ve been working on fixing our issues we had in 07.
Questions regarding this:
Can we get the hotel do provide security for the exhibit space at night? Rian will check.
Can we hire private security for night security? That would fall more under Dawn or Jess.
Will we have awnings for the park? Not sure.
Is wireless access something Rian is looking into for this years con? Rian will look into it for next year, but the double tree this year is changing their vendor between now and the con, so they are unable to give any pricing until that vendor is secured.
Are we sharing this hotel with anyone else? As far as we know, we have everything. No sharing except rooms.

Toured the Red Lion at the Quay. If we return to the Hilton, we would probably use the Quay for an overflow as well as some smaller events.
Red Lion has airport shuttle.
Reminder that none of these things may actually come to fruition, but we shall see when they come back with an proposal.

Treasurer:
Budget, we have approved the budget. Ryan Stasel and Erik Teitzel have begun purchasing equipment.
We will be posting a list of equipment for the Directors in the near future.

Vice-President:
We’re doing a program down in Eugene called the Oregon Asian Celebration (Feb 16-17) (Lane County event center, at the Lane County Fairgrounds), and will be sharing space with Copic. We’re going to be working on a few Cosplay mini-events, and some crafty events, like cat ears, and such.
Not going to have a lot of tech, so please discuss any specifics with Dawn if you’d like something specific.
Working on staff retreat centers for the April Staff Retreat. Please give her any recommendations that you might have.

Publicity:
Next upcoming event: Mochitsuki this month. Will be taking registrations for the con there. Some crafty type events, but we’re still working on that. Any suggestions, please post them to the forum thread about this.
We were able to get a table at a very low price, in exchange for us selling tickets to their programmed events at this meeting. Tickets are will-call.
Masq ball flyers are available now. More about the Masq ball will be talked about shortly.
Publicity staff positions, Jeff will be finishing up on PDs within the next week or two. Most of those positions will be within Promotional events. Street team should be starting too.
We’ll be having a contest like last year, that will be for who will write the Info page on the website.
There’s also will be a big festival in Japan that will be promoted by the Japanese consolate, that we will have info on our site about.

Relations: Nate Clampitt, Assistant Director.
We need exhibits hall staff, and Guest Liaisons. We have an Exhibition manager.
We are part of Harmony Gold’s 2008 tour. At present, we are their only NW stop.
Two guests to announce: Tommy Young. Also Richard Epcar, voice of Bato in GiTS, SAC.

Secretary: Needs an assistant.

Masq Ball: Jaki Hunt.
February 2nd, at the Milwakee Community Center.
All registration information is available on the website.
After the meeting, we’ll be having mask making, as well as some dance instruction.
Still looking for staff. Don’t necessarily have to be K-con staff for the Masq… so keep that in mind.
Suggestion: If you have an anime club at your school, hand those out there.
Question: Cosplaying is okay.
Can Yojimbo wear masks? Jaki will talk to Jess and see what they can work out, because in the past, Yojimbo can’t wear any face coverings.

General announcement:
We are now completely self-reliant for our main events, and no longer require the generosity of another con.
Sorry we didn’t have a christmas party… it just wasn’t doable. But, we’re going to work on having some Staff parties in the coming year. Also some outreach programs with local college anime clubs. We’re really like to help make sure local anime clubs have great parties.
Please start out by talking to Mike first, and from there, we’ll distribute the works on a need basis.
We’d be very interested in hitting any interested Anime clubs within reason. Just talk to Mike and we’ll go from there. Anything, even eastern washington, just let us know. We’ll work it out.
RadCon is February 14-18th, in TriCities. Guy and Andrea will be going out there this year, so any promotional material, please give to them.
As an example for funding outreach costs, the SCA has monies set aside for leadership position.
Promotional stuff will be available within the next few weeks.
Jeff will be creating a sticky forum thread for outreach suggestions.
We’re working on who’s going to be in charge of what AV.
General announcements:
Equipment loan policy has been decided: There will be no loans of equipment for personal uses. This doesn’t mean we won’t be using it throughout the year. We will be taking all the TVs up to Sakuracon, and will be taking various things around to Staff events, or smaller outreach events.

Check for Quorum: 21 voting staff present. 29 total registered

Motions:
-Motion to ratify minutes for August, October, and November GM minutes as they stand. Second. Motion to ratify passed by acclimation. Minutes ratified.
-Motion for consideration by the board: Assumed consent for an official recording to be made of General meetings either in audio or video format. Any speaker may at any given time be allowed to ask for off the record remarks, and such a request will create a break in the official record, until such time as they are done speaking. The board will need to address this issue, and will have it available for general vote at the next meeting.
-Motion for the General staff to recommend that the bylaws committee release all working drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.
-Motion to adjourn: Passes.

Breakouts.

[Rathany]

One correction on "Next upcoming event: Moctsituki this month."

It's Mochitsuki. 

More details here: http://www.mochitsuki.org/

[TomtheFanboy]

Secretary: Need an assistant.
.
.
.
As an example. the SCA has monies set aside for leadership position. Maybe this would be an example.
Promotional stuff will be available within the next few weeks.
Jeff will be creating a sticky forum thread for outreach suggestions.
We’re working on who’s going to be in charge of what AV.
General announcements:
Equipment loan policy has been deciding: There will be none for personal uses. That doesn’t mean we won’t be using it throughout the year. We will be taking all the TVs up to Sakuracon, and will be taking various things around to Staff events, or smaller outreach events.
Check for Quorum: 21 voting staff present. 29 total registered
Motions:
Motion to ratify minutes for August, October, and November GM minutes as the stand. Second. Motion to ratify accepted. Minutes ratified.
Motion for consideration by the board: Assumed consent for an official recording to be made of General meetings either in audio or video format. Any speaker may at any given time be allowed to ask for off the record remarks, and such a request will create a break in the official record, until such time as they are done speaking. The board will need to address this issue, and will have it available for general vote at the next meeting.
General staff recommends that the bylaws committee release all working drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.
Motion to adjourn: Passes.

Breakouts.

I just have grammatical suggestions, nothing content related. It's an official document so I'll nitpick.

The Secretary "Needs" an Assistant.

The "As an example." line should end in a semicolon or be re-worded to create a different sentence.

The rest of the items should be spaced for each category (like General Announcements, Motions, and Check for Quorum).

The Equipment loan policy has been "decided". I think the second sentence needs to be re-written  as well, perhaps "There will be no equipment available for personal use."

That's it, good minutes!

[MichaelEvans]

I know that it wasn't $5 per day or $3 per day for hotel parking... I think I remember him quoting a day and a night rate, and that he agreed there was some confusion about exactly what would happen under different circumstances.

Did anyone take notes on the exact details, or could anyone coroberate a statement by our former Facilities Liaison if he makes one?

Rian is working on getting information from several hotels for 09. They’ve been working on fixing our issues we had in 07.

This is a great example of where a good pre-written and submitted report would be awesome.  I know he covered it in far more detail, even including the near by hotel, garage, and the fact that if we use the garage under the Hilton for the dealer's room again, they would have agreed to carpeting, better environmental conditioning.  Use of the other hotel's event space would be required so that we could get room rates through them as well (and parking garage rates too?  He was looking in to that...)

You're asked right that I asked about security guards to relieve yojimbo from night shift, I can't remember if I noted that one more reason for doing was was to place any such liability on a group of professionals for such security tasks.  (Not that the Yojimbo are bad, but really they're more of in house crowd control and designed to prevent descent in to chaos.  Night security guards may even be allowed to carry real weapons or have special hand to hand combat training... (Yeah, in my dreams...))

One other thing Rian mentioned was that there was some kind of amphitheater in the area, though I don't remember the precise details.

This was my motion as well... and I don't believe this is what we ended up agreeing upon.  Mike expressed that the bylaws committee wasn't operating under the assumption that their draft versions would be public (WTF?  How exactly is the membership supposed to express their suggestions and fears and things they think the bylaws aren't saying, or are operating against the best interests of the convention and those supporting it?), so instead of all current and future drafts...

or what you have...

General staff recommends that the bylaws committee release all working drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.

It should probably read:
General staff recommends that the bylaws committee release all future drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.

Unless I am mistaken in the exact details that were worked out (Tom I think, was also very vocal, maybe he can correct me if I'm wrong on this point.)

[TomtheFanboy]

I know that it wasn't $5 per day or $3 per day for hotel parking... I think I remember him quoting a day and a night rate, and that he agreed there was some confusion about exactly what would happen under different circumstances.

Yeah, I missed this one. I'll edit this post if I have to (when I check my notes at home) but I'm pretty sure the numbers he had were $3 per day and $5 per night. The clarification I asked for was whether or not paying for parking overnight included the daytime fee in it (perhaps from check in to check out?). The alternate would basically be both for each full day you spent at the con.

Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday, Sunday night, Monday, Monday night, Tuesday...
32 dollars total versus just $20.
I doubt it will be that much for those of us who are already staying at the hotel with a discount but it's best to be thorough.

As far as the minutes for this question though, it should read "Parking at the hotel for the convention will be $5 per night, or $3 per day. Rian will look up the difference between what hours qualify for each."

[rictheron]

You're asked right that I asked about security guards to relieve yojimbo from night shift, I can't remember if I noted that one more reason for doing was was to place any such liability on a group of professionals for such security tasks.  (Not that the Yojimbo are bad, but really they're more of in house crowd control and designed to prevent descent in to chaos.  Night security guards may even be allowed to carry real weapons or have special hand to hand combat training... (Yeah, in my dreams...))

A quick note on this one which I feel is in my pervue as Operations Director and prior head of Security/Yojimbo for the past three years.  For the purposes of security of these areas this is a subject best not discussed in public as details can undermine the value of any security placed there.  As this then can affect the well being and liability of any person thus assigned these will be staff only information.

  Rest assured all considerations have been and are being considered, I have been a licensed Private Security Guard for 5 years now as well as the duties with the convention and intend to see that things remain at their best.  Major details on this will be released in General Meetings as they are solidified.  If there are any general questions on this subject then feel free to private message me and I will answer them as best as I am able.

[MichaelEvans]

I didn't think what I was asking was any more then a broad-stroke for any of that.

[rictheron]

 It was a pre-emptive, broad notice before any more conversation continued on the subject and anything was stated as followup, not a direct response.

[guspasho]

I actually had submitted a written report to the secretary, and requested that it be included in the minutes, but it appears he has chosen to ignore it.

The minutes should be corrected to include my written report as quoted:

Facilities report for general meeting, January 12th, 2008

The hotel code is JPA. Rates are available online and when selecting your reservation. Be sure to insert "JPA" into the Group/Convention Code field, under Special Accounts. Rates are by room type, not number of people reserving a room. The smallest room type, the 1 queen bed option, is $114/night, and the other larger room types are $124/night.

The code is valid for reservations made for Thursday night through Monday night. Thursday night and Monday night is only good for the first few reservations so it may fill up quickly. If you attempt to book a reservation using our code and you don't get the options to select $114 or $124, let me know, and I'll ask the hotel to expand our block.

If you have already reserved your room, even if you have gotten a cheaper rate, please contact the hotel and ask to have your room added to our block. You will not lose the cheaper reservation rate, and it helps us to to fill our block and fulfill our obligation to the hotel. If you reserved with a more expensive rate, ask to have the hotel code rate applied to your reservation.

Parking at the hotel for Kcon will only cost $5/night and $3/day, significantly less than what is posted outside right now, probably.

The Doubletree is now working on an addendum that addresses our major concerns with the existing contract as it was signed, and it should mean we are finally beyond the negotiation phase of this contract and can now look toward executing it.

There are going to be some complications that we must accept, most of which are difficult to explain and not relevant to the attendee. The Doubletree may be looking to apply a 20% service charge to everything, from room service, to room rental, to our rental of the event space in our contract. The Doubletree is still trying to determine if they are going to charge 20% on all that, so I'll let you know as I know more.

I've appointed Meg as my assistant and I've tasked her with looking into the feasibility of booking the park across the street for possible outdoor events. If you have an interest in pursuing an outdoor event or making a currently indoor event, talk to Meg. If we are going to book the park, we need to know that we can put enough events in the park to make it worthwhile. If you want to hold an event that serves food, such as the tea party or Ouran Host Club, talk to Meg, because if we can get it, it will be much easier to hold those events in the park rather than in the hotel, where we will have to pay hotel rates for hotel food and beverages.

Last week I met with a sales representative at the Hilton and discussed some basics, and I will receive an initial proposal from the Hilton in a couple weeks. I plan to meet with the Marriott next week and the Doubletree the following week regarding proposals for 2009, and hopefully I can report back from those meetings at the next general meeting.

Nothing is set in stone, but these are what we talked about with the Hilton sales manager, which Meg took notes for.

We can expect the room rates to only increase by 8% over 2007 rates. We can probably get the whole event space for $2500/day and the parking lot for an additional $1500/day.

The Hilton works with the Red Lion at the Quay next door regularly and the Hilton can help us coordinate with them as well as help us get our foot in the door with the Red Lion in terms of vouching for us. If we return to the Hilton it will probably require using the Red Lion at the Quay for some events as well.

From a quick tour, the space at the Red Lion at the Quay is small, so it may be best suited for panels, but there is a large hall that might fit our exhibitors, but might not, and there is a really cool outdoor ampitheater that faces the river which I'm sure we could find a use for.

We learned the Red Lion has an airport shuttle, which we may be able to use to shuttle attendees to and from the MAX stop across the river too.

We told the Hilton that the lack of carpeting in the garage, poor lighting and poor airflow were issues last year, and they are willing to fix those problems for us. The Hilton took pictures of our exhibitors hall and was able to use them to sell that parking lot for other exhibition shows, so I think they're very interested now in providing this stuff for us now, because it's an investment that will work for them for many other events.

We told them the surprising catering costs were an issue for us and they are willing to help us nail down prices in a more predictable manner, such as charging per head.

They said they we could use Grays for the VIP dinner, since it's much larger, much nicer, and we wouldn't need to be charged for the full bar. Grays can seat about 200 so we could potentially sell over a hundred dinner tickets to the VIP dinner.

I asked them about expanding their concession sales and using the revenues off that to offset the cost of events like Host Club and the Lolita Tea party. I said we would be willing to help them with advertising their concession stand in order to maximize their sales, and minimize or potentially eliminate our cost for those events.

I've asked the Hilton to include free options for all of our general meetings in the contract up front, and the option for a Mini-con event.

The Hilton's sales manager was very receptive to all of these requests and is working on developing for us a proposal that includes all of these things.

The Hilton also said they really wanted us to sign a contract for 2009 and 2010 and was willing to offer us a discount for signing for two years. I don't know yet what kind of discount yet, though.

Just to be clear, none of this may actually materialize, but I wanted you to know that I took these things to the Hilton for our contract proposal from them.

Are there any other items I should ask the Hilton about or keep in mind to ask the Marriott or Doubletree for 2009?

I plan to meet with the Marriott next week and the Doubletree regarding 2009 in a few weeks, and I hope to have similar reports from those meetings at the next general meeting.

Obviously I am now unable to follow up on what the Doubletree's parking rates mean, or on anything else, since the board has seen fit to remove me.

[Evaldas]

20% on all services? That sounds like a whole lot of bull. And there is still question whether you will have the whole building for the convention. Hope that gets cleared up soon. 

Hilton: I would not mind retuning to the Hilton since they are will to improve upon problems from last year and even retrofit the parking garage and offer a discount for contracting for 2 years. They apparently liked having us there and people did not mind hotel once they got there. It would interesting to see what comes to fruition over the next couple of months.

Guspasho, good footwork on that.

Thank you for sharing the meeting notes.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see anything in the minutes about the mentioning of the February meeting's date & location.

As anyone can see from the main webpage, the meeting is on the 10th.  It's location will be at Clark Community College.  I think this was mentioned by Mike during the general announcements.

I'm not sure why it hasn't been posted on the main site yet; my only assumption is that Jeff has been rather busy.

Oh yeah, here's the address to Clark: 1933 Ft. Vancouver Way Vancouver, WA 98663

[MichaelEvans]

Google Map
The map is fine for getting me within a few blocks... but this looks like a fairly large area.  Where exactly in there are we going, and what would the best option for parking be?

[Evaldas]

That would be a good question. I know somewhere someone mentioned about setting up some sort of prearranged parking or something. As a artist vender, it would be nice if something could be set up for the vendors who are not staying overnight at the Doubletree (especially those who have to drive in...no max in Lake Oswego) so that is one less thing to be concerned with. But I am sure this will be address more closely in the near future.

I loved the parking last year and not because it was free in the overflow, it was right next to the exhibitor's hall and I did not have to go far from where I parked (on the most part). ^^

[MichaelEvans]

Well, as for overflow parking at the convention... I'm not sure on the precise hours the maxline will run then, however currently on weekend and holidays...

http://trimet.org/max/index.htm

Digging in I find...

http://trimet.org/schedules/maps/maxsystem.htm

The map which shows all maxline stops and which lines service them.  You want to look for Transit Centers (TC) and Park and Rides (P) (The little lettering inside each stop's symbol).  Pick one that's close or convenient for you.

Clicking on "Hollywood/NE 42nd Ave Transit Center" (one stop to the right of the Lloyd Center exit which is right across the street from the hotel and right next to the park), we see that :

Amenities
    * The nearest Park & Ride is located at the Gateway Transit Center

Oops, this TC doesn't have any parking (Park and Rides always do, but a TC + P will only show up as a TC).

Gateway Transit Center happens to be one more zone away, in Zone 3 instead of zone 2 or 1.  This unfortunately means you'll need an Adult All Zone pass, If you plan to make more then one trip in and one trip out an All Day pass is more economical.

Gateway/NE 99th Ave TC Park & Ride
1321 NE 99th Ave., Portland, 97220

This Park & Ride tends to fill up around 7:30 a.m. on weekdays. Enter from NE Pacific west of 99th.

    * Parking - 444 spaces including:
          o 16accessible/disabled spaces
          o 4 Quick Drop spaces - 10-minute parking for passenger loading/unloading only. One space is van-accessible.
          o 10 short-term parking spaces - metered at $0.50 an hour, with a 5-hour limit. Metering is enforced from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday, except TriMet holidays.
    * Bike lockers available
    * Open all days
    * 24-hour limit

Hum... Metered spaces?  I'm not sure if the normal spots are metered as well.  This might be worth checking out.  It sounds like the metered spaces are limited for the short term ones, probably more as an enforcement on that...

I am also unsure of the restrictions for transporting things on the maxline.  I imagine that you're probably discouraged from doing it during the week, a few small items under direct supervision on the weekend might be overlooked for a short stint as long as you're constantly by them, not looking suspicious, and have plenty of help for unloading them on time.

A better option may be to unload at the hotel, and drive to one of the TC + Ps / or Ps. However that's only really economically viable for those who already have monthly maxline passes, or who plan to have a single day pass used for fetching the car...



- edit -

Timing update:  It looks like on Sunday schedule (which should cover both Sunday and the holiday after), the maxlines have VERY sparse service between 10pm and 6am, depending on the redline or blueline and direction.  Check in advance.  (There's a nice gap of 4-8 hours of no service at a glance... with sparse service before that/during the other off hours.)

[JeffT]

Motion for consideration by the board: Assumed consent for an official recording to be made of General meetings either in audio or video format. Any speaker may at any given time be allowed to ask for off the record remarks, and such a request will create a break in the official record, until such time as they are done speaking. The board will need to address this issue, and will have it available for general vote at the next meeting.

I don't recall anyone committing at that time to have the issue put for a general vote at the next meeting.

[MichaelEvans]

Jeff may be right... I think we all assumed that the Board would do this on it's own and present proper wording at the next meeting.

I should note that my unofficial bylaws draft actually has some language in there that could work well... I'll quote it.

All observers and participants at any meeting open to the public or Membership do so only under the implicit agreement to recording of presence and actions in any format. With the right to speak off record, off transmission, or both, for the duration of that discussion period or shorter if they state they are done with that secret discussion. A request for a secret discussion, or secret discussion in nominal procedure may be made on behalf of the discussion, or as a proxy to hide the true speaker.

[Washougal_Otaku]

Hmm... a very good point has been made by Michael Evans.

The specific building will be Foster Auditorium.

(I sure hope this works).  http://www.clark.edu/maps/parkingMap.pdf

^ This should show you a map of the campus that has each parking lot labeled.  Along the major left (West) road, known as Fort Vancouver Way, you'll see some red circles with numbers in them;  you'll want to park in the 3.  Immediately to its right, you can see a deformed H on its side; that's three different halls, one of them is Foster.  In order to get there, you'll need to go in between the two halls (Hanna & Hawkins) & enter the glass doors; Foster will be through the green doors on the right.

Now, if you'll be taking the bus systems,  as far as I know, Tri-Met has no service to Clark County on Sundays.  However, C-Tran does have one route into Portland.  You can go to either the Janzten Beach stop (which I know the #6 use to stop at) or go to the Delta Park/Vanport stop (which as far as I know is only accessible from the MAX Yellow Line).  The C-Tran bus is known as #4 Fourth Plain.  Once it gets to Vancouver, ride it through downtown (where the KCon '07 was YAY!) and let it take a right onto Fourth Plain.  After a few minutes of riding, you'll see a McDonald's to your left, sitting at Fort Vancouver Way.  You can kinda see on the map the Clark College Foundation & the Brown House just before the same intersection.  The next busstop is just after the street (which is just as the road ends on the map).  You'll also see a Burgerville on the other side of the stop.  Now, simply walk up the little hill & you'll soon see Clark College on your left.  I'll provide a link so you can see route info & times.  http://www.c-tran.com/  (Hmm, I thought this was gonna go straight to the #4, oh well).

Just as a note, I'm planning on making some signs to help point the way to Foster, just in case.  They won't be as nice as the ones we had around the hotel @ the last meeting, but they'll be a decent size.

[COMaestro]

Motion for consideration by the board: Assumed consent for an official recording to be made of General meetings either in audio or video format. Any speaker may at any given time be allowed to ask for off the record remarks, and such a request will create a break in the official record, until such time as they are done speaking. The board will need to address this issue, and will have it available for general vote at the next meeting.

I don't recall anyone committing at that time to have the issue put for a general vote at the next meeting.

Actually I remember Rian and Michael Evans both wanting to put the motion to a vote immediately. I'm still not sure why this motion had to go to the board first, as it's pretty much common sense, and won't take effect at all until meetings are recorded in some format anyway.

[JeffT]

Actually I remember Rian and Michael Evans both wanting to put the motion to a vote immediately. I'm still not sure why this motion had to go to the board first, as it's pretty much common sense, and won't take effect at all until meetings are recorded in some format anyway.

This would be a major change in the way we do meetings, and the proposal had just been made. There are downsides to it (for example, potential privacy concerns) and a period to discuss it and think it over is standard for any such major change, rather than putting it to a vote immediately. What if there are legal implications one way or the other? People need time to consider the options.

[staze]

None of this really has to do with the minutes people. I will try to get Tom's comments addressed in the next day or so, and any others that actually apply to the minutes taken for the general meeting on 1/12/2008.

And to clarify on including reports: those aren't for inclusion in the minutes. The minutes are to be concise, and be easily readable to see what transpired at a meeting... not include full reports. If people want to file reports, they can do that themselves. It's, honestly, not my bag.... unless it's my report on my "department".

[staze]

Let me clarify:

I fully agree with (and plan to continue to) including a "Minute-ized" version of a report. A basic summary of what was presented, what questions were asked, etc. That way, people know what happened at the meeting, etc... and if they have questions, they can contact that department head.

But, including (often) multi-page reports in the minutes will result in minutes that are far beyond readable by the average interested person (I've had some minutes that were pushing 7-8 pages without reports... including those would push them to 15-20 easily), and would ultimately result in people asking for clarification on reports (because they're in the minutes) from the secretary, or worse, pointing out corrections.

If directors/departments want to post reports, I'd highly recommend they do so in their own department area of the forums, or in separate threads in the public forums, so long as none of the info is "for staff eyes only". =/

Okay, so: summaries = good, copy/paste reports into minutes = not so good.

But, that's just my take. I'm certainly open for discussion on this... but I ask that it be taken either to email, or in person... not on this thread, or in the forums in general (for now).

[MichaelEvans]

My understanding of how minutes work is that they record what happens at the meeting.  So if the meeting is when the report from a given department is officially submitted (which it should be), then the report should be included as an additional document filed with the minutes.  The minutes themselves citing the filing of the documents and containing whatever official copy was presented or discussed at that time.

If there are inaccuracies in whatever report, that isn't an issue as long as the report is the exact version submitted for inclusion.  Corrections to prior reports being filed at the next meeting (and therefore included in that set of minutes).

This would complete the Minutes being a log of what occurred over time and provide for a basis of official document filing.

[Pezzer]

Treasurer:
Budget, we have approved the budget. Ryan Stasel and Erik Teitzel have begun purchasing equipment.
We will be posting a list of equipment for the Directors in the near future.

its Eric with a C!!!!

[staze]

My understanding of how minutes work is that they record what happens at the meeting.  So if the meeting is when the report from a given department is officially submitted (which it should be), then the report should be included as an additional document filed with the minutes.  The minutes themselves citing the filing of the documents and containing whatever official copy was presented or discussed at that time.

If there are inaccuracies in whatever report, that isn't an issue as long as the report is the exact version submitted for inclusion.  Corrections to prior reports being filed at the next meeting (and therefore included in that set of minutes).

This would complete the Minutes being a log of what occurred over time and provide for a basis of official document filing.

This may be your interpretation of minutes, but certainly not mine, or the states, or Roberts. Minutes are actions. In fact, the minutes I submit for review are FAR more than legally or Roberts would require because they contain discussion, non-action points, etc.

However, I agree that if a report is submitted, it can be referenced in the minutes. But, the report that all this discussion came from was submitted after the meeting, and I was not informed at the meeting that it existed in any form. But ultimately, I'm not going to be the one that posts said report, because it's not "my" report. If I know about a report, I'll say "See the report by Department Director for further information, etc" but I'm not going to post that because it's ultimately not part of my job to keep those records. If we change that in bylaws, or the board (or just Mike) feels it's something I should be doing, that's great, I'll do it. But at this point... I'd have to echo Tom. If the state, or a bank, asked for minutes from a meeting, and I handed them my minutes, plus reports from each department, they'd honestly look at me cross eyed.

If departments want to post reports, great. They can do it every day, every week, every month, whatever. And if people want to see those, they can contact the director... but I don't want to be the gatekeeper of department information. They're good at their jobs, they can disseminate information themselves. =)

[MichaelEvans]

E. Duties of the Secretary

The duties of the Secretary shall be to:
1. Keep a record of the minutes of each Director and Membership meeting and;
2. Handle all organization correspondence.
3. Give notices for Membership and Board meetings.
4. Maintain records of member names and addresses.
5. Authenticate records of the corporation

So you are saying that you do not believe a department report is a record of the corporation?

As far as any reports delivered after the meeting, you are correct, they should not be included in that meeting's log, but in the interval log or in a section of the next meeting's log recording what would be in the interval's log.

[staze]

lol, no... I'm saying that if they want to give me a copy, I'll keep it for records, but I'm not going to be the one to post it on the site. The forums are NOT a repository of official records of the corporation, nor should they be. If they want it on the site, great. It's their department, not mine. I'm not their boss. I don't mandate how they run their department, nor should they mandate how I run mine. That's what the board is for, as a whole... so we don't have directors telling each other how to do their jobs.

If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to do so in person at the meeting. Otherwise, the purpose of this thread is to point out corrections, or errors in the minutes for the January 12th GM... 

[staze]

Minutes have been corrected to address issues presented with their original form (report was NOT inserted into minutes as per the ongoing discussion in this thread).

Thank you.

[staze]

General staff recommends that the bylaws committee release all working drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.

It should probably read:
General staff recommends that the bylaws committee release all future drafts of the bylaws. Motion passes by acclimation.
[/quote]

So, now that I actually read this a couple times, I'd actually like to comment on this.

It was always has been, and to my knowledge still is, the intent to release the draft of the bylaws to the general staff for review and comment. But, what I'm not sure you are aware of is: no draft was ever prepared by the committee. Not for board review, or general staff review. Heck, the committee never even had something it voted on releasing to the board/general staff. Heck, the committee was largely in name only, but that's not the issue here.

So this motion is kind of like having an 11th commandment that says "Thou shalt read these commandments". Of course you read them, but you didn't read them until Moses (or whomever) finished writing/transcribing/recording them.

Sorry to be defensive... but this is yet again another instance where the Board is being accused of being some type of secret club. Something I take very personally being a founder of this organization.

Thank you.

[MichaelEvans]

Wait... The Bylaws committee had all that was left over from last year, and at least three months (there were other members while you and Rian were suspended), and there's still been no even internal drafts?

How often have you updated the board on these matters, and why haven't they demanded a status report or three within that interval (Or was that secret?)?

[staze]

Wait... The Bylaws committee had all that was left over from last year, and at least three months (there were other members while you and Rian were suspended), and there's still been no even internal drafts?

How often have you updated the board on these matters, and why haven't they demanded a status report or three within that interval (Or was that secret?)?

Last year is what I'm talking about. There never was a "draft". At least, not in my definition of the word. There were works in progress... but those were controlled by the head of the committee, who to my recollection never moved to have anything officially released.

[MichaelEvans]

Under my view, all versions that are distributed to the committee members as whole versions should also be archived and released to the public.  Which as soon as I was ready to share my version of my own un-official one, I began doing, right in the Bylaws! thread.  Since then all revisions have been published the same way.

[Mr_Phelps]

Let's not forget also that we have day jobs...   while it would be great to have a job where I do nothing but work on con stuff, that just isn't the case.  At work I must be focused on the task at hand and generally hit the end of the day wondering how it got to be that late already.  I loved the job, but it was a harsh taskmaster.

The other part of this is that there were "no other members" during the stand down period and that everyone else was working on what was already on thier plate.  There is no "can't miss" deadline for these bylaws, the important thing is to get it right!  If that takes more time, so be it.  We want bylaws that don't need to be amended constantly.

It would also seem that the three months in question the directors were supposed to suspend all commitments to family/friends during the holidays to satisfy your demands.  Life first, then school/work, THEN con!  

[staze]

Under my view, all versions that are distributed to the committee members as whole versions should also be archived and released to the public.  Which as soon as I was ready to share my version of my own un-official one, I began doing, right in the Bylaws! thread.  Since then all revisions have been published the same way.

That may be your view... but the committee was formed under the impression that it would craft a bylaws "draft" that would then be submitted to the board for review and comment, once that happened, the committee would address those issues, then submit to the general staff for review and comment, take those notes back, address those, then bring it for a board/general staff vote.

working copies are not drafts. drafts contain at least something in all sections, and are ready for comment. You don't give out something that just has section headings and ask for comment, because then you get "this heading should be this" or "this section should contain this" even when there's NOTHING in said sections. Drafts are something that commentary on, from a non-committee body, would be useful rather than a hinderance. This is a lot like Open Source, in that you open the source up when you actually have something that "works" on an alpha level. We never really had that, to my recollection. But, that's just me... and the committee never feeling we had something ready for release. Sorry.