Author Topic: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?  (Read 46966 times)

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Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« on: April 06, 2009, 06:47:52 pm »
Hello everyone! I have never been to an aime convention so I need a little help.
I am going as Rip Van Winkle, from Hellsing and probably most of us know, she is a Nazi and wears a necklace showing that. But she has no arm band. Will I be kicked out or talked to by the security?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:04:19 pm by Lieutenant Rip Van Winkle »

Offline Telomere

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 07:15:35 pm »
I am only speculating but if you plan on including the swastika part of the costume, I would be surprised if someone didn't freak out on you.  Even if they somehow ok it, I think you would likely run into problems at the convention with this particular costume. 

Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 07:20:32 pm »
I am only speculating but if you plan on including the swastika part of the costume, I would be surprised if someone didn't freak out on you.  Even if they somehow ok it, I think you would likely run into problems at the convention with this particular costume. 
ok but what if i get my necklace peaced? :D i know its a rather dumb idea but it might work ^^

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 07:51:03 pm »
Honestly it sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I suggest doing the character sans Nazi paraphenilia.

Or you could even cosplay someone else! There are so many choices out there!

Offline Man of the Public

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 07:58:30 pm »
I see no problem with it, but I'd take it off if you leave the con for any reason.

Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 08:03:46 pm »
I see no problem with it, but I'd take it off if you leave the con for any reason.
Oh most definatly! I would never walk around on the streets with that around my neck. I would simply wear it for the purpose of cosplaying! ^^

Offline Mister_manji

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2009, 08:52:34 am »
Amber, is that you?

regardless, I really wouldn't do the necklace. Its a recognizable enough character, especially if you have the flintlock. That kind of stuff would fly in Japan, but not here. This is one of the primary reasons I will never do a cosplay of Manji from Blade of the Immortal.
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Offline EveofAbyss

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 08:54:52 am »
Someone did a costume like that last year, wore the symbol walking around in Portland, didn't encounter any problems to my knowledge.

But the general consensus here would be that it would probably be problematic, so......judgment call, most likely.


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Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 10:01:02 am »
Be weary that K-con is trying to be really kid friendly (hunt around for the threads on similar costume discussions) - so your measure of acceptance is how family friendly it looks. The further away it looks, the more likely you'll hit a problem.

Offline AnimeMatrix

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 11:28:15 pm »
Be weary that K-con is trying to be really kid friendly (hunt around for the threads on similar costume discussions) - so your measure of acceptance is how family friendly it looks. The further away it looks, the more likely you'll hit a problem.

Kumori Con is not trying to be kid friendly nor is Kumori Con trying to be family friendly. Yes, it's true we have programming aimed for children and we want to make it a con where families can feel welcome, but it's not in our "mission statement" that Kumori Con is a family friendly convention. We have lots of 18+ adult programming (cause' the adults have to have something to do after the kiddies go to bed ^_~).

Going back to the question, umm, I'd have my reservations about it. I haven't seen Hellsing so I don't know which character that is so personally, if I saw you, I'd just think you were a Nazi (though probably a cosplay Nazi from some series).

Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 10:53:51 am »
Be weary that K-con is trying to be really kid friendly (hunt around for the threads on similar costume discussions) - so your measure of acceptance is how family friendly it looks. The further away it looks, the more likely you'll hit a problem.

Kumori Con is not trying to be kid friendly nor is Kumori Con trying to be family friendly. Yes, it's true we have programming aimed for children and we want to make it a con where families can feel welcome, but it's not in our "mission statement" that Kumori Con is a family friendly convention. We have lots of 18+ adult programming (cause' the adults have to have something to do after the kiddies go to bed ^_~).

Going back to the question, umm, I'd have my reservations about it. I haven't seen Hellsing so I don't know which character that is so personally, if I saw you, I'd just think you were a Nazi (though probably a cosplay Nazi from some series).

You might not have felt obligated to find similar threads to this discussion, so let's start with the EASY one: http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=7885.0
A lot of people specifiy kumoricon to be a family friendly convention, and much of the sentiment in that thread supports it. Coincidentally, around late page 2 and page 3 of that thread, it gets to a discussion about Nazi costumes. There, it was basically said "don't do it." So that answers it pretty easily.

A simple tagline should be, "If it wouldn't fly at Disneyland, it won't fly here." If the security people had that to work from, the costume filtration would finally be uniform and no longer be subject to the individual security person's feeling of moral superiority (which results in that costume is okay, this costume is not). In thinking about it, that's not too far from it. There are quite a few anime shows which have Nazis, or Nazi wear. So putting those shows into a "no" bucket with other shows which make people uncomfortable does permit sanitiation of content to encourage attendee count of a broader audience.

It would make me sad to see a really good Osaki Nana cosplayer get the boot because her costume, but better one of her than 5 DN/Naruto/FMA fans. :(
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 11:05:01 am by XFD »

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2009, 12:57:30 pm »
Admittedly, the very prospect of you cosplaying Rip Van Winkle (seeing how she is indeed a Nazi), Lieutenant Rip Van Winkle, will definitely cause some unrest amongst people.  However, so do a number of cosplays out there.  I did some google image searches, and the necklace she wears is an Iron Cross, not a swastika.  As such, based on my past judgements as last year's Yojimbo Assistant Manager, I would say it should be fine.  I cannot confirm that decision as it's up to this year's Yojimbo Managers though.  As others have suggested, I would not wear the necklace itself either way outside of the hotel.  To clarify why I make the distinction between the Iron Cross and the swastika, here is a link to an image of the Iron Cross itself.
http://ironcross.forumsland.com/images/logos/ironcross.2.1224611211.jpg
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Offline Squeek

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2009, 01:22:38 pm »
Yojimbo one here, personally i think no matter what anyone cos-plays your going to make someone feel uneasy, it happens there isn't much you can do about it, but here is a difference between just being there making someone uneasy and going out of your way to do so, i think as long as your not walking around spouting out nazi propaganda, and "sig heil"ing everyone things should be fine. Though the idea of the iron cross in favor of the swastika may make things go easier :P

on another note good choice on a character to cos, the really cool bit characters don't get enough attention

Offline Trumby

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2009, 02:20:39 pm »
Admittedly, the very prospect of you cosplaying Rip Van Winkle (seeing how she is indeed a Nazi), Lieutenant Rip Van Winkle, will definitely cause some unrest amongst people.  However, so do a number of cosplays out there.  I did some google image searches, and the necklace she wears is an Iron Cross, not a swastika.  As such, based on my past judgements as last year's Yojimbo Assistant Manager, I would say it should be fine.  I cannot confirm that decision as it's up to this year's Yojimbo Managers though.  As others have suggested, I would not wear the necklace itself either way outside of the hotel.  To clarify why I make the distinction between the Iron Cross and the swastika, here is a link to an image of the Iron Cross itself.
http://ironcross.forumsland.com/images/logos/ironcross.2.1224611211.jpg
It actually depends on which version it is. The one we see in Hellsing Ultimate, she wears a swastika. Which is probably the version she's doing.

In the military uniform (manga only, at least so far), she wears an Iron Cross. Which has no direct connection with Nazi's other than the fact that it is a German symbol and the Nazi party just so happened to rule Germany for many years.
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Offline Telomere

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2009, 08:48:54 pm »
Could just swap swastika for iron cross to be on the safer side. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:36:00 pm by Telomere »

Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2009, 10:46:36 am »
Could just swap swastika for iron cross to be on the safer side. 

Safe from what? Someone who is so overly sensitive that they're afraid of their own shadow?

...and live from sakuracon's gaming room we're seeing someone take a picture of cosaplay jesus and pedobear. Quick we need to give them the boot! Someone might get offended!

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 01:26:55 pm »
Could just swap swastika for iron cross to be on the safer side. 

Safe from what? Someone who is so overly sensitive that they're afraid of their own shadow?

...and live from sakuracon's gaming room we're seeing someone take a picture of cosaplay jesus and pedobear. Quick we need to give them the boot! Someone might get offended!

I think you're taking it a little out of hand here.  The reason swastikas and Pedobear are problems are because it touches on extremely serious issues, with the Holocaust and pedophilia.  I would remind people not to let this discussion get out of hand and lose sight of what this thread is about.
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Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2009, 05:04:08 pm »
Well the nice thing is that the OPs question has been answered by another thread (which was linked earlier).

the hyperbole drives home the point that the staff have demonstrated inconsistent choices on what is and isn't ok. bringing this up doesn't make it uncivil nor does it deviate from subject as it pertains to the question about acceptance easpecially when no mod has come forth and taken responsibility for a solid yes or no answer.

Yes the actual holocaust was awful and Nazis were one of the worst parts of human history, but does that give one group of people the right over everyone else about what can be parodied of such a group? If you think so, thats fine for your convention but you need to be upfront with your customers that such politics are employed. There isn't any shame in defining a clean and easy standard which all staff and yojimbo have to obide by. "If it wouldn't fly at Disneyland, it won't fly here," works wonderfully for it's simplicity. If that's too close to "g-rated" give a nice easy to reference indicator, but as you open the door for more mature themes (even if you exclude the themes that would upset Puritian types) you're going to introduce conflict because you'll have someone who is offended by something. It's human conflict as the basic level, differences bother someone.

Trying to address each person on a case by case basis is futile. if you try to pass/fail  every person who comes up with something that bothers someone, you'll get mixed messages (see: this thread) and then the person of subject well get judged differently by each reviewer/staff/etc. Maybe a censorship board should be formed for the con? Their sole purpose is to give a yes/no answer to such costume then mark their badge as a costume ok. Done. Now you've removed power from some who try to use their organizaional leverage for personal moral or political reasons.

Consistent, repeatable results are the mark of a good process.

As for a cartoon internet meme being something to worry about, remember that for a time Anime fans were grouped with people who watched Urutsukidoji. I would be more worried about being linked or associated with its modern ilk than some nerd's joke.

Offline kylite

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2009, 07:28:22 pm »
ok, you want a solid answer. then here is the answer.

DIRECTLY as you requested.

Pedobear: BANNED! and this is the end of this argument

Swastikas: Allowed for now, though if we receive complaints we may have to change our ruling.

your right, we could adopt such a train of thought such as the Disney land quote but that's going to far. we try to be fair, and every year someone comes along and tries as hard as they can to push or break the rules just to get a moment in the spotlight. I am not saying the OP is doing this. but I know pedobear was.

anyway, the official answer has been stated. if you have further questions please ask
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Offline pieisexactlythree

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 08:38:12 pm »
Pedobear: BANNED! and this is the end of this argument

Swastikas: Allowed for now, though if we receive complaints we may have to change our ruling.

Wow! Just wow!  That has got to be one of the most blisteringly stupid policies for an anime con I've ever heard of!  Kyle, I'm sorry you have to spout this garbage on behalf of your organization.  I'll just point out a couple of salient facts:

1) Pedobear is not real, and consequently has never actually molested anyone; it is an internet joke.

2) Nazis are real, are not a joke and murdered millions of people.  Some of those people may be relatives of Kumoricon attendees or members of the community who might get a negative view of your event as a result. 

I rest my case.

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2009, 06:17:07 am »
Pie, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. but lets face facts, about 30% or more of anime has German symbolism in it. the swastika has been in many different anime's and as such is a piece of cosplay. will it upset people, most likely, thus why I suggested the iron cross.

Pedobear represents pedophiles. joke or not, no force in this world accepts that lot. As a parent of 2, I have strong views on this. I would think any parent would. Perhaps those who don't yet have children can balk at this and say its just a joke but I stand firm on this.

if you truly believe that I am in the wrong, come to a general meeting and speak out.
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2009, 07:20:04 am »
Weve had this argument with eachother already and I would very much prefir we didnt go there again.

As far as Nazi costumes are involved I myself dont recomend cosplaying it outside of the con area (Which it apears you dont plan on doing ^^) Know that some people could be possibley offended, this comes from the general fact that we all have our own opinions and do not think as one large mass. If some one is offended then it is up to you on what to do, I find it unlikley that the costume alone will offend some one longas you dont have an armband.

Swastikas I am not so knowladgable about. As far as I see it i personly wouldnt wear it and would switch it out for the cross, sacrfice a bit of acruacy but it would make myself more comfertable knowing Im not wearing the symbol, and highly downplay the chances some one is goig to get angry.

Swastikas compared to pedo bear, swastikas themselfs are not pictured to be hurting anyone, though they are still of controvirsial issue it is not something that is going to cause physical harm and though it represents a very bad thing it is not equal to pedo bear. Weve had the discussion on pedo bear and it should remain closed, though yes it may be a joke cryculating the internet pedo bear seems to be an active part in the internet society, the Swastika like i said does not actualy cause harm, though it represents something that does, it in no shape or form is used to do things of actions considered unapropriet for children eyes (the swastika did not kill jewish the nazi's did) Pedo bear himself does suposedly do all his actions himself however.

Sometimes you have to take things case by case. It doesnt matter what cosplay your doing if you step out of line you will be talked to or kicked off the premise, Costumes all have diffrent reasons for being contriversial, some may fly and some may not. Im not saying look at every cosplayer individualy and give them and all clear for their costume, but some things are taking into special acount and there are some instances where you can and canot wear a costume. THe convention does catar to some minors during the day, and by law anyone under 18 is not aloud to be subject to sexual content (like porn) rule 34 of the internet is that if it exists theres something x rated of it. that doesnt ban all cosplays but Pedo bear is diffrent, he is ONLY subject to sexual content, he has no other background.

either way the dicision is not up to the attendies it lys in the hands of those who organize the convention, it is their final say.

so in summery (long post i know im sorry) I would say its up to you but I would personly replace it with the cross, just dont go out of your way to offend which i don't think you will.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 07:22:28 am by xxxchihiroxxx »
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Offline JeffT

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2009, 08:50:08 pm »
Wow! Just wow!  That has got to be one of the most blisteringly stupid policies for an anime con I've ever heard of!  Kyle, I'm sorry you have to spout this garbage on behalf of your organization.  I'll just point out a couple of salient facts:

1) Pedobear is not real, and consequently has never actually molested anyone; it is an internet joke.

2) Nazis are real, are not a joke and murdered millions of people.  Some of those people may be relatives of Kumoricon attendees or members of the community who might get a negative view of your event as a result. 

I rest my case.

Really, you think this is one of the "most blisteringly stupid policies for an anime con"? I can understand disagreement over the policy itself, but banning humorous allusions to pedophilia is on a scale that dwarfs the rest of the scope of ostensibly bad decisions that may be made by anime cons?

Pedophiles and child molestation are real. So let's be clear, we are talking about two situations that both reference real-life evils.

The franchise of Pedobear exists for the singular purpose of making fun of child molestation. On the contrary, anime Nazi characters exist within an entire storyline, and a costume of such a character is largely a reference to the entire story of that anime. In such stories, the Nazi may be portrayed as the villain, so the anime as a whole does not glorify Nazism. People regularly cosplay as anime villains without any implication that they endorse the evil acts of those characters in the real world. Although the fact that the Holocaust occurred in real life does lend real possibility for offense with these villains, it is not the case that the anime Nazi characters came into existence in order to make lighthearted, humorous fun of the Holocaust.
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2009, 09:45:21 pm »


The franchise of Pedobear exists for the singular purpose of making fun of child molestation. On the contrary, anime Nazi characters exist within an entire storyline, and a costume of such a character is largely a reference to the entire story of that anime. In such stories, the Nazi may be portrayed as the villain, so the anime as a whole does not glorify Nazism. People regularly cosplay as anime villains without any implication that they endorse the evil acts of those characters in the real world. Although the fact that the Holocaust occurred in real life does lend real possibility for offense with these villains, it is not the case that the anime Nazi characters came into existence in order to make lighthearted, humorous fun of the Holocaust.

>_> You always say what I want to say but better! Darn you with your words that actualy make sense : P

but I second, Jeff said basically what I was trying to say.
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Offline pieisexactlythree

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2009, 07:15:36 pm »
Not so fast, Chihiro,  I'm pretty sure that the pedobear character was created and is posted as a dig at a certain element of the anime industry and of anime fandom, namely the tendancy to sexualize underage girls.  I've seen a lot of anime and manga, and this tendency is pretty prevalent.  Pedobear is a spoof of all the otaku who produce and consume material from this sizable portion of the anime/manga world. 

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2009, 07:19:27 pm »
Point taken,

I did mean really as he is always pretty much asociated with pedophilia and does pretty much nothing else (at least ntohing else that ive seen) I do see the joke in it I also however agree with jeff that it is not an apropriate costume for this con during non curfew hours.

but yes I do know what you mean : ) Sorry my mistake with poor wording.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2009, 08:29:46 pm »
Not so fast, Chihiro,  I'm pretty sure that the pedobear character was created and is posted as a dig at a certain element of the anime industry and of anime fandom, namely the tendancy to sexualize underage girls.  I've seen a lot of anime and manga, and this tendency is pretty prevalent.  Pedobear is a spoof of all the otaku who produce and consume material from this sizable portion of the anime/manga world. 
Pie, this may be true, but as Jeff said, when a fair bit of anime portrays Nazis in a villainous light, it's more easily tolerated than the perception of pedophilia.  Which is why Yojimbo 1 made the decision to allow the cosplay mentioned in this thread, and has explicitly banned Pedobear.  Hence why Kumoricon, unlike other conventions, chooses to ban the Pedobear cosplay and reserves the right to ban other characters that can make people think we permit such attitudes.  That said, this thread is not the place to continue discussing this, so from here on out I suggest that it get moved elsewhere if people want to continue.
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Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 10:48:52 am »
Other people have said what needed to be said about the logic so I'll be constructive with this: I figured out a nice easy standard that I think would work for Kumoricon.

The line, "If it wouldn't fly at Disney Land, it won't fly here," as agreed is too g-rated. The idea is right, because it's a uniform standard that the majority of people could grasp at a moments notice.

I thought, then, "Family Guy." It's much more lewd, but Quagmire is essentially on the same level as Pedobear. It's too much in line with the other direction, opposite to the Disney idea.

I think, the most uniform standard is, "If it wouldn't be on the Simpsons, it won't fly here."

Unless they're getting killed in an Indiana Jones spoof, Nazis would still be banned (so anything in close relation would have to go too, including anything Hellsing).
It permits some of the more sketchy costumes we get once in a while. It still permits some of the more goofy teen kind of humor, etc. It's about the right balance.

Offline JeffT

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 02:17:27 pm »
It's not good to simply cite another organization's standards as our own, because:

(1) They have different needs than us,
(2) The rules of those standards are not public, so Kumoricon staff have nothing to go on to decide borderline cases, nor can they defend any decisions,
(3) Some people have not been exposed to those standards because they don't watch those shows or they have a different cultural background.

I hope our Operations staff will consider the issues they're facing regarding costumes and content (not just the ones in this thread, but others they have faced) and create a more exact set of standards that can be incorporated into the Kumoricon policies, and I see no reason that that isn't possible.
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Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 04:16:59 pm »
I think, while we're both in agreement for improved standardization, we have a miscommunication in the ideas.

For costumes and behaviors, Kumoricon needs to have clear and simple standards for operation. The message about Disney Land, Family Guy and The Simpsons was to demonstrate a consistent and repeatable set of standards. Such standards are not just for fair and equal treatment to all who are involved, but makes the job easier for those who have to enforce them. It is precisely because of the fact that we do not know the written standards that I suggest those sources; each operates on a certain level of maturity, and with those levels of maturity comes social standards.

You wouldn't show up to Disneyland naked, it's obvious for many reasons and the first reason is that it's socially unacceptable. The whole of the attendees would be offended and there is no valid reason to do so. The show "Family guy," would probably try to display nude characters (and has come very close a few times) as it is part of the humor of the show geared to more mature audiences. (The humor being in the socially awkward or unacceptable part, not unlike making fun of something socially or culturally sensitive).

You would be much less likely to see attempts at blatant nudity in the Simpsons. It's a middle-ground for maturity.

The abstract is applying censorship on a level of maturity and then providing a set of well defined expectations per that standard. If those standards could be summarized to a single catch-phrase, filtration would be very easy for the approved/rejected costumes. If you have only ever seen Naruto, you would have a very clear reaction to seeing something based on guro like Higurashi naku no koro ni (very violent). Because you're familiar with the norms in Naruto, your mind can easily separate the visual and graphic images of Higurashi. It isn't a long check list of banned cosplays, it isn't keeping an ear out for one particular bad word, it's an immediate identifier. Being able to make that distinction does not come from generating a long list of banned cosplays, and is immune to exploitation by internet geeks who play the system by changing from one bad cosplay into another that happens not to be on the list.

An example: Pedobear cosplay is now banned; so someone brings in a pedobear plushie. But the plushie is still pedobear, but is not a cosplay; the subject is what you're banning not a cosplayer. So now you add the rule, "all things pedobear are banned." Then you have someone who cosplays GuroDragon. You're perpetually playing catch up and not dealing with the root problem; subject matter that is too mature for the level the staff want to establish.

Most of the Yojimbo are already swamped with their standard duty. Asking them to perform their primary function while remembering a long list of banned costumes, mannerisms, etc will only lead to burn out and missed "illegal" costumes at best, and accidental misinterpretation of the rules at worst (so someone innocent gets punished for doing no wrong). So it's another reason why chasing the matter will only exhaust good people who want to help out.

I  think that having a small standards panel of 3-5 people would be best. They define the standards that give limits to what "PG-13" maturity means and deal with the the real issue: the subject matter. Things that would get sketchy internet memes banned (due to innuendo) may very well catch things such as Nazi cosplays, bondage-fairy cosplays and probably exclude many swimsuit style cosplays. That's fine though if everyone can find such an explicit standard, not just the simple "no nudity, no weapons, no..." then we all get treated absolutely equally. There will still be some people who are bummed because of it, but it's a standard that applies to everyone. We don't get caught in the hole of white-versus-colored segregation where one group gets preferential treatment over another.

At con time, the same standards panel serves as a small judicial group to evaluate "grey" or questionable cosplays. A Yojimbo thinks something is questionable (not explicitly bad, but that grey zone) they direct the possible violator to the group. Then, the small group performs their one function well can pick through any compiled list of do and do-nots that has been built. If it's acceptable, green stamp on badge. If not, red-stamp to indicate a rejected cosplay and they go change. For a Yojimbo who sees the questionable costume, it then becomes a simple manner of looking at the badge. Green stamp/sticker/whatever, okay it's been approved. Red and they're still questionable? Nope! No stamp/sticker at all? To the standards board!

Edited for clarity and info!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 11:06:45 pm by XFD »

Offline nikkiolie

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 04:30:19 pm »
I think one of the issues with this is that banning something can, and here I want to stress CAN, lead to a slippery slope. Things get banned because people take offense to them, and if everyone who was ever offended by a costume wanted to ban it there wouldn't be anyone wearing costumes.

A lot of people take offense to naruto characters, and I personally take offense to obese people wearing skimpy clothing. Yeah you are probably saying that these examples aren't near as bad as a Nazi costume but this could be the way some people respond. Like "well they banned Nazi costumes because it offends people, well anything with a cross offends me" then next year it could get worse and worse.

In my opinion if you don't agree with what someone is wearing....don't be in the same area as them. If they are in an event that you want to be then go on the opposite side of the room as them. No matter where you go in this world you will find something that offends you. There are still Nazi's all over the place and do you expect us to ban them? I like to see people TRY to ban Nazism from the world.

There is a difference because dressing up as a character and shearing the same beliefs as the character, maybe some people should learn this. I figured it was common knowledge.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2009, 03:16:55 am »
I still think the comparasion with Pedobear is absurd. The average person will look at that and see "someone in a bear costume". Wheras the average person will look at a Nazi or someone with anything that looks like a swastika (no matter if it is or isn't or even if it's the Indian usage, which is a POSITIVE symbol) and see only Nazis. Everyone knows that. Not everyone knows Pedobear.

What if someone was to dress as Sexual Harassment Panda? Or on a less serious but still with harmful surface connotations note, original color Jynx? Sure it's a pokémon, but it was the subject of a hell of a lot of controversy because it looks like a short woman, and in the original coloring it had jet black skin (it's since been changed to purple). Or hell, Mr Popo while we're on that subject. The average person isn't going to know he's a genie.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 03:17:49 am by BlackjackGabbiani »

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2009, 02:51:44 pm »
I am only going to suggest this once more before I go to the moderators and/or admins.  If you want to discuss what should/shouldn't be banned, please move it to another thread.  We do not need another flame war like we had just after Kumoricon last year.
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Offline XFD

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2009, 04:55:39 pm »
I am only going to suggest this once more before I go to the moderators and/or admins.  If you want to discuss what should/shouldn't be banned, please move it to another thread.  We do not need another flame war like we had just after Kumoricon last year.

How would having the same discussion, not flame war btw, in a different thread be any different than this thread? All it would do is create thread-spam. We've already had mods and admins comment in the thread. If people are ernestly discussing it, there is no valid reason to try and impede it because it makes someone uncomfortable reading it; they can skip the thread or do something else more constructive.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 05:21:58 pm by XFD »

Offline kylite

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2009, 07:33:55 pm »
Topic restored. I removed this for a few hours because I saw a potential flame war building and wanted everyone to cool down a bit.

Please keep on topic and professional/civil
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Offline Seraph

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2009, 09:07:10 pm »
Pedobear is like wearing a sign in a foreign language(like say, Japanese) that reads something very offensive.  Just because most people don't understand the language, doesn't mean its should be allowed imho.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Swastikas (and other emotionally explosive symbols) on costumes
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2009, 09:42:05 pm »
I'm not much of a costume creator (now - but I used to be and *might* get back into it) but, my opinion / $0.02 is that things might depend on the context of the costume or the cosplayer, and perhaps even the historical context of the article which includes the swastika itself. Thing is, costumers are making scale models, or representations of figures we have seen.

Now, if I went to a maritime museum that had an exhibit of model warships through the ages, that's an example of a context where I think the fact that some model ships would have swastikas on them wouldn't upset many people at all. The political, genocidal, and racist message of the swastika really isn't the main focus of the exhibit. Rather, the model makers would paint the WW2 Kreigsmarine vessels with swastikas in places (fo'c's'le, naval ensigns, etc) in the same context as painting rising sun emblems on the Nihon Kaigun vessels. Message: "This is what these ships looked like in the era when they were in action." Same goes for captured rifle or maybe a soldier's mess kit on display that has a swastika or the Japanese Emperor's crysthanthemum on them. It's an authentic specimen - a piece of history with a story. The museum isn't promoting the politics denoted by the symbols on their specimens.

One cosplay question is, WHY does the character (in the story) wear the swastika? If you have a time travel story, where some beam or event nabs someone from a certain place and moment in time when that person was wearing a Waffen SS uniform, well, you're going to have this guy who shows up with a bunch of swastikas, much red black and silver colors, and a knife that says "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" on it. Now what? Depends on the story, to me. If the guy goes off vamp-killing with the rest of the Hellsing characters, then I'd think the racisim/genocide symbolism would be at least somewhat dissipated.

Also, as was previously posted, if the story character *does* act like an authentic racist berserker AND this is seen as a Bad Thing, and the story is 'how do we take this guy OUT,' then it's also not glorifying or condoning racism/genocide, it's presenting the 'good guy gang' with an opportunity to unite against evil, which is also cool.

Next, if the cosplayer appears as one of a SET of people who are like, 'all the bad guys of Hellsing,' or 'all the characters of Hellsing,' or a set like 'Uniforms of socialist tyrants of the 20th Century' (say, including a Khmer Rouge soldier, Jane Fonda a Viet Cong soldier,  Cuban soldier, a Soviet soldier, a Red Chinese soldier, etc) - not really an anime topic, but again a SET - then it's kinda like the ships exhibit; a slice of history rather than a political statement. But that only works in the SET. If they move together as a group in the hallway, (such as on the way to/from a cosplay event) you get the SET. Once they disperse and the one swastika character is in an elevator apart from the SET - and the doors open on the 8th floor and some non-con people step in - you could REALLY hurt some people's feelings.

Last question: What are the odds that a real, living Holocaust survivor might be visiting the Hilton, outside the context of the con? He or she might be pushing eighty years old now, but would have been a teenager then, thrown into a box car headed for a place like Dachau, or Auschwitz, or Ravensburg ... Now how would you feel?

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Pre-1933 German symbols should be OK.
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2009, 06:58:47 am »
Admittedly, the very prospect of you cosplaying Rip Van Winkle (seeing how she is indeed a Nazi), Lieutenant Rip Van Winkle, will definitely cause some unrest amongst people.  However, so do a number of cosplays out there.  I did some google image searches, and the necklace she wears is an Iron Cross, not a swastika.
It actually depends on which version it is. [...] In the military uniform (manga only, at least so far), she wears an Iron Cross. Which has no direct connection with Nazis ...
Quite true. The decoration goes back to - what - 1813 or something. Same goes for images like the Maltese Cross, the Iron Eagle, or the German WW1 naval ensign (which includes both) and all of these pre-date Nazi politics and policy.

Makes me wonder: what if a Japanese studio creates a character who wears rebel images like the Stars and Bars or the Stainless Steel Banner? That could create quite a frakas, too. Especially if the studio says. "Oh we just used it 'cuz we think it looks cool."

PS: One of my late uncles landed in D-Day (Sword beach) and picked an Iron Cross off a fallen German on the beach. Later in life he also had two former German submariners living in his apt building - but by the 1960s they were all rather friendly. Bygones, etc.

Offline kit2kit

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2009, 10:18:29 am »
My cousins friend when as them last year and I heard people treated her rudely.
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Offline Mister_manji

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Re: Will Millenium Characters From Hellsing Be Banned?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2009, 02:29:26 pm »
My cousins friend when as them last year and I heard people treated her rudely.
By "people" do you mean attendees, K-Con staff, or hotel staff, or other guests/outsiders?
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