Author Topic: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'  (Read 6928 times)

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Offline Prinz Eugen

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"But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« on: October 18, 2008, 08:29:39 AM »
This is the place we can discuss whether show 'X' or "Y' or 'Z' is anime or not, as a precursor to the final decisions made by the AMV judges panel. Although I coordinate the contest, from developing new categories to determining contest length, and playlists for other AMV events during the con (pre-show, the show aka non-competion exhibition, and Off-hours* selections,) I'd like to repeat that personally I do not vote on the judges panel.
Often if an AMV is likely to raise questions, I pass along to the judges' panel any research notes or links and other special notes provided by the AMV creator.

*Off-hours designates a mix of explicit content AMVs and a general-fare overflow slot.

One member here who has done quite well recently is asking about 'Transformers' - is it anime or not, and if he creates and submits a work, I will point the judges to this thread if they have reservations about Transformers. Once again though:

a) the panel to convene next year may not have any significant questions about 'Transformers,' and
b) if they do make a discussion about it, their collective decision will be final, and
c) I myself do not vote on that panel.

If they have trouble deciding, I may have a few other tools to use as impartial mechanical randomizers: gaming dice, playing cards, suppressed machine pistols, ammonium nitrate, or a few bottles of sherry older than any of them.

Other than that, this is an information exchange, discussion and FUN thread.
Let's not make it a flame war. Offense taken from what I write is purely accidental and is most likely due to my limited skills as a writer. The mantra to hold in mind is: "No matter what happens here, let's make sure the 2009 AMV contest is gonna ROCK."

Alright - off to our first question: 'Transformers.' Evidently there were both TV series and feature-length films, and even a recent live-action movie.
My initial opinion is that this may likely be in the same right-on-the-razor-edge situation as 'Kingdom Hearts' - yes it's Japanese made but "polluted" by Disney characters. That kind of thing.

Wikipedia (that mighty, fact-looking opinion generator) says Transformers has some significant gai-jin origins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers

" Hasbro, fresh from the success of the G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero toyline, which utilised the Microman technology to great success, bought the Diaclone toys, and partnered with Takara.[2] Jim Shooter and Dennis O'Neil were hired by Hasbro to create the backstory, the latter of whom christened Optimus Prime.[3] Afterwards, Bob Budiansky created most of the Transformers characters, giving names and personalities to many unnamed Diaclone figures.[4] "

[2] http://tformers.com/Hasbro-Publishes-Transformers-Timeline-to-Movie/7132/news.html
[3] http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/features/qanda/bbudiansky_2.php
[4] http://transfans.net/interviews_budiansky.php

Besides Hasbro, we also have significant crossover/entanglement with Marvel Comics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Spider-ManvsMegatron.jpg

Then there's the question of Sunbow Productions, operating in Japan, but actually a front for New-York based Griffin-Bacal Advertising, founded by
Tom Griffin and Joe Bacal. Sunbow productions include:
( from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbow_Productions )

    * Cramp Twins (2001)
    * Lion of Oz (2000)
    * Mega Babies (1999)
    * Salty's Lighthouse (1999)
    * Deepwater Black (Mission: Genesis in the U.S.) (1997)
    * The Brothers Flub (1997)
    * The Adventures of Hyperman (1995)
    * The Mask (1995)
    * The Littlest Pet Shop (1995)
    * The Tick (1994)
    * Conan the Adventurer (1992)
    * Bucky O'Hare and the Toad Wars (1991) (Co-Production With IDDH, Marvel Productions and Continuity Comics)
    * The Nudnik Show (1991)
    * Visionaries: Knights of the Magical Light (1987) (Co-Production with TMS Productions)
    * My Little Pony and Friends (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * Robotix (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * Inhumanoids (1986) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * Super Sunday (1985) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * Jem (1985) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * G.I. Joe (1985) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * Transformers (1984) (1986) (Co-Production With Toei Company, Marvel Productions)
    * G.I. Joe: The Revenge of Cobra (1984) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (1983) (1986) (Co-Production With Marvel Productions)
    * The Great Space Coaster (1981)

So the link to Toei exists, but the rest of their production doesn't seem much like anime...
Even so, we might weight Toei 1/3 Marvel 1/3, Sunbow (NYC) 1/3 and get a "33%-anime" rating?**

My current opinion: If you remember the classic Milton-Bradley board game of 'Battleship,' then 'Transformers' is a big ship; super-carrier size maybe, but it's got several "it's not Japanese" plastic pegs stuck in her marked "Hasbro," "Dennis O'Neil,"  "Bob Budiansky," "Marvel Comics," "Tom Griffin," and "Joe Bacal." One or two more and we'll make water over the gunwhales.

** By this measure we might also consider Ghibli animation as half-Disney and therefore 1/2-anime?
Given Hayao Miyazaki's hyper-environmentalist works over the past 10 years, I'd be pleased to agree with that...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 11:52:50 AM by Prinz Eugen »

Offline Wuntvor

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 12:13:26 PM »
Well,  my opinion is that, if it was made in Japan AND it aired in Japan first, then it is anime.  End of discussion.  In short, who paid to have it done, and what was the nationality of the target audience?  If they didn't have a Japanese sound track, that would be a big factor as well.  The Live action movie, isn't anime just because it is live action.  IMHO, that just defies the meaning of the word.  Anime is Japanese for animated.  Live action isn't animated, it is film.  AMV stands for Anime Music Video.  Thus I would expect to see anime while watching it.  I would hold the same rule true for the Death Note live action movies as well.  Yes they were done in Japan for a Japanese audience and are based on anime and manga, but they aren't anime themselves.  Maybe we could produce a new acronym for such mixed works, or works that don't have anime in them.  JMV - Japanese Music Video?  ???  Seems misleading since they are usually English songs.  MMV - Mixed Music Video?  Has promise.  :-\

** By this measure we might also consider Ghibli animation as half-Disney and therefore 1/2-anime?
Given Hayao Miyazaki's hyper-environmentalist works over the past 10 years, I'd be pleased to agree with that...

Now that just made me mad.  Ghibli is 100% anime by any measure you use.  Disney just dubbed it into English.  No Ghibli bashing allowed.  >:(
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 12:19:25 PM by Wuntvor »
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Offline AnimeMatrix

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 02:09:11 PM »
Ah the eternal question of globalization, outsourcing, and anime fandom.

Well, I've always been the type of person that thinks any cosplay is fine, anime related or not. However, my opinion changes when it comes to AMVs. First requirement is that it's animated, but does that also include 3D animated works or just cell animated works (however, considering how everything is going digital, maybe 2D animated works is a more appropriate descriptor...)?

I suppose if it's made in Japan would be another requirement. I guess I agree with Wuntvor about being made in Japan for Japanese audiences with a Japanese soundtrack, but this question turns into very muddled waters.

Offline thundercatlord

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 02:50:52 PM »
First off I would like to state that I am still going to make this video, whether the powers that be at Kumoricon decide to allow it or not. I edit what I want to create, and I already know that I will at least be able to enter this at Sakura-Con.

ok here are all the Transformers series that I know of:

* "Transformers" (the original, often referred to as Generation 1 or G1 by fans)
     -The series was written and recorded in America, but the series was animated in Japan
     -The series also had a Japanese voice track, and aired in Japan as "Tatakae! Cho Robot Seimeitai Transformer" and "2010, Toransufōmā Tsūōwanō" (Transformers 2010) for the third season.
     -An full length (animated) movie was released in 1986, "Transformers: The Movie" or "Transformers the Movie: Mokushiroku Matrix yo Eien ni" in Japan. Toei Animation even created a "prequel" to the movie, "Scramble City" that was exclusive to Japan.
     - The American influence ended after season 3, and the Japanese continued the story on their own with...

* "Transformers: The Headmasters" (Toransufōmā za Heddomasutāzu)
* "Transformers: Super-God Masterforce" (Toransufōmā: Chōjin Masutāfōsu)
* "Fight! Super Robot Life-Form Transformers: Victory" (Tatakae! Chō Robot Seimei Tai Transformer: Victory)
* "Transformers: Zone"

Each of the 4 above series are completely Japanese. In fact, I don't believe that have been released in the US.

There have since been a number of alternate universe Transformers anime series that have come from Japan, such as "Transformers: Armada", and "Transformers: Energon"

If you want to use the analogy of Transformers being a battleship with all these non-japanese pegs in it...then I just would like to point out the number of Japanese things also keeping this battleship afloat.

And the : "yes it's Japanese made but 'polluted' by ______" viewpoint could also apply to other things that are widely accepted as anime. Such as "Batman: Gotham Knight". Batman is not Japanese...he's created by DC Comics. So therefore, I would like to point to this thread here : http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=7107.0 where everyone agrees, "Batman: Gotham Knight" is anime.

For the record, I view anime as anything that was animated in Japan, regardless of whether or not it saw a Japanese audience first. Anime is an art style, something that is unique to Japanese animators. Anime is about the animators, not the original voice track. Are voices anime? No, the art is anime.

also if you go here: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/search/name and type in Transformers, you get a number of hits..But if you type in something that is obviously not anime, like "My Little Pony", "Smurfs", "Family Guy", or "Tiny Toons" you get a big fat ZERO.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Transormer AMV is 'GO' for 2009'Tranformers.'
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 05:54:03 PM »
Quote from: thundercatlord
First off I would like to state that I am still going to make this video, whether the powers that be at Kumoricon decide to allow it or not. I edit what I want to create, and I already know that I will at least be able to enter this at Sakura-Con.
You GO, man! You did great last year and I said I'd be more than happy to throw your entries into the hopper this year.
I also gave you the green light on the other thread, and I am glad to see your passion and enthusiasm here as well. Also as I said elsewhere, it's quite possibe thea the 2009 panel won't even raise the issue. A panel for one year didn't even discuss whether a Vampire Hunter D was or was not anime - in it went. A panel from another year had a big research and debate about it. (iirc that gang eventually decided 'OK' as well.)

Your information is excellent, and I'll make sure (if there's even a question about it) that your points get presented strongly and positively. If I had to throw the dice today I'd lay great odds that any high-quality, fun or engaging piece should have as good a chance as any other entry.

Looking forward to see your work.

Quote
And the : "yes it's Japanese made but 'polluted' by ______" viewpoint could also apply to other things that are widely accepted as anime. Such as "Batman: Gotham Knight". Batman is not Japanese...he's created by DC Comics. So therefore, I would like to point to this thread here : http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=7107.0 where everyone agrees, "Batman: Gotham Knight" is anime.
Seeing that the last post happened in July, It'd be a cold thread for me to post on it, but yeah, had I seen it earlier I would have disagreed using your words nearly exactly. The DC Comics origin would definitely be questionable in my opinion.

Can't find it now, but I recall another thread claiming that 'The Boondocks' was anime. What the heck?

Anyways, you and I may disagree on definitions, but that's one of the reasons I exclude myself from the panels - I'm aware that my own private opinions on many issues can be 'out there' at times.

Quote from: thundercatlord
Quote from: Prinz Eugen
One or two more and we'll make water over the gunwhales.
...then I just would like to point out the number of Japanese things also keeping this battleship afloat.
I *did* say you were STILL AFLOAT! :-)
And I know how to pronounce 'gunwhale' and 'forecastle' and 'quahog' too! Ha! :-)

Quote
Ghibli is 100% anime by any measure you use.  Disney just dubbed it into English.  No Ghibli bashing allowed.
I don't think any judges panel I've ever convened has EVER questioned whether or not Miyazaki's works were or weren't anime. But I bash on him for other reasons which are just a matter of personal preferences. Hey, not everyone likes 'Gundam,' or 'Akira' and life's just like that at times.

Quote
also if you go here: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/search/name and type in Transformers, you get a number of hits..But if you type in something that is obviously not anime, like "My Little Pony", "Smurfs", "Family Guy", or "Tiny Toons" you get a big fat ZERO.
Awesome point.

Anyways, best of luck with your new creations!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 05:59:40 PM by Prinz Eugen »

Offline Wuntvor

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2008, 06:34:10 PM »
Thundercatlord - GAMBARE! - I really like your work.  I have no objection to you using any of the Transformers footage that you specified.  I don't know about my feelings for your opinion about if it was created in a Japanese studio then it is anime regardless of who the target audience is.  I feel that that might open a can of worms best left closed.  I don't know if it is just the fact that Japanese writers and producers have their own unique style, strongly influenced by their beliefs and upbringing, or what.  I just like anime made in Japan for Japanese.

According to Wikipedia Thundercats (I am assuming by your avatar that you like this show) was developed and produced by Rankin/Bass Productions, but the animation was provided by Pacific Animation Corporation, the working name for a collective of Japanese studios.  Many of Rankin/Bass' traditionally cel-animated works were animated by the Japanese studio Top Craft, which was formed in 1972 as an offshoot of the legendary studio Toei Animation. Many Top Craft staffers, including the studio's founder Toru Hara (who was credited in some of Rankin/Bass' specials), would go on to join Studio Ghibli and work on Hayao Miyazaki's feature films, including Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and My Neighbor Totoro.

I already stated that Ghibli rocks and is 100% anime by my book, but I would never say that the shows put out by Rankin/Bass are anime.  The Hobbit, The Last Unicorn, Flight of Dragons, etc.  That is a can of worms I really don't want to mess with.  Before long you'll have The Pirates of Dark Water, Avatar, Teen Titans, TMNT, Ōban Star-Racers, W.I.T.C.H., Winx, and all the rest jumping onto the AMV bandwagon because they look Japanese, or have a Japanese style, or Japanese animators worked on the film, or a Japanese manga was released, or Puffy AmiYumi did the OP for it..  OY, my head hurts already.  Most of these shows were done in Korea, Italy, France, England, or Canada!  ARGH!!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:44:05 PM by Wuntvor »
(\,@/)  Quote from -  Rock & Rule
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 //_\\   Dizzy:    Hexx, Stretch.  Hexx.
  d b    Stretch: Aw!  Two of them!  That's even worse!

Offline thundercatlord

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 03:26:55 AM »
Just cuz I found this and it relates to the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YMmm9DIISg&feature=channel_page

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 01:19:24 PM »
Thanks! I'll watch it later tonight...

- G

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 07:07:56 PM »
Does that mean that Les Miserables: Shoujo Cosette isn't anime? The origins are French (the book Les Miserables by Victor Hugo), but it was made in Japan and aired in Japan for a Japanese audience.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Les Miz = OK for AMVs
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 09:32:34 PM »
Does that mean that Les Miserables: Shoujo Cosette isn't anime? The origins are French (the book Les Miserables by Victor Hugo), but it was made in Japan and aired in Japan for a Japanese audience.
The factor here is where and how the VIDEO portion has been created, not the music or the source inspiration, so - Les Miz is OK. You have (from Wikipedia)

Producer: Kōichi Motohashi
Planning: Kazuya Maeda (Fuji TV), Kōhei Sano, Kazuka Ishikawa
Production manager: Ken'ichirō Hayafune
Series composition: Tomoko Kanparu
Character designs: Hajime Watanabe, Takahiro Yoshimatsu
Chief animation director: Tadashi Shida
Background artist: Kazue Itō
Art director: Mitsuki Nakamura
Color design: Tomoko Komatsubara
Photography director: Seichi Morishita
Sound director: Hiroyuki Hayase
Music: Hayato Matsuo
Music producers: Hitoshi Yoshimura (Index Music), Daisuke Honji (Index Music)
Producers: Yukihiro Itō (Fuji TV), Kōji Yamamoto (Fuji TV), Michio Katō, Ken'ichi Satō
Director: Hiroaki Sakurai

Everybody connected with this project is Japanese - so you're good to go. Gankutsuou de Monte Christo is another French novel re-telling of by Alexander Dumas' 1847 novel The Count of Monte Christo. The anime version was produced by GONZO. Gankutsuou AMVs are totally fine for the AMV contest (except that show is starting to get old already...)

Also, several anime have been based on the Chinese legend Monkey King / Journey to the West.
Gensomaden Saiyuki is one of them; some say DBZ includes a lot of elements from the legend as well. Those are also fine for the AMV contest.

While we're on Chinese origins, Juuni-Kokki (12 Kingdoms) counts as anime (Studio Pierrot,) and if you want a gender-bent brain-pretzel, try Koihime Muso (note: one character is rather hard-core lesbian, if that bothers you)  - take the Chinese 14th century novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms and turn all the Chinese general and strategists into bishoujou. HEADACHE!!

Record of Lodoss Wars  (Studio Madhouse) counts as anime even though the original source (that is the origin of the origin) is non-Japanese. The story I heard was that: J. R. R. Tolkein writes the LOTR trilogy, which provided the basic inspiration for D&D role-playing which kicked off somewhere in the early 1970s. Then Lodoss was created when a bunch of Japanese animators came over to the US for a con, got hooked on D&D, then decided to animate their campaign...

Where we start running into 'but is it anime' questions is:
a) when the VISUAL COMPONENTS start getting created by studios in the USA or other locations outside Japan, (example, Thundercats, produced by Rankin/Bass and created by Tobin "Ted" Wolf,) or
b) when a significant fraction of the creative staff aren't Japanese.

Wuntvor's comments are right on the mark as well; Avatar and TMNT are *not* anime.
(And Megatokyo is *not* manga!)

Thundercatlord's comments are also correct about not counting the origin of the voice content - especially since the audio in an AMV is gonna be something else anyways!

In any case the judges' decisions are final on all of these questions BUT I will submit anything I receive to them...

- G
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 10:18:26 PM by Prinz Eugen »

Offline BigGuy

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 05:31:33 PM »
I remember reading that Anime isn't really even a Japanese word, it's a contraction of the French word for Animation coined by the Japanese to describe their "cartoons" or animation. So in that frame you can say anything that's animated is anime, no matter where it from.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 09:29:37 PM »
Anime is short for animeshun, which is the word for animation.

Or that's what I assume. I've also heard it's the French thing, too, though.
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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 11:11:59 AM »
Anime is a loan word, derived from the English word Animation. There is a long history of English words being shortened and used in this manner.

Anime in French means animated, lively or busy in the sense that a person or thing is animated, lively or busy. The French word doesn't mean animated as in animation until you add the word 'Dessin' onto it, which turns it into 'animated drawing' (Dessin Anime). It's purely coincidence that the two words exist and are spelled the same.

Also, the way that animation is pronounced in French would probably result in the Japanese turning it not into 'anime' but into 'anima'. It's pronounced 'anime' which is the same as the first part of the English 'animation'.

I don't know where the French thing came from, but when I looked it up I only found one source claiming it and it didn't have an explanation as to why the person was saying that anime was derived from the French word. The only argument that I've heard as to why anime would be derived from a French word is that the French started translating anime and manga in the 80's. However, anime was called anime years before there was any interaction between French translators and Japan. Even then, we'd still have to go back to the way that it's pronounced.

If you wanted to make the argument that anything is anime no matter where it's from, I would say that it's because the Japanese use 'anime' to describe anything that's been animated regardless of origin. The American definition of Anime is different though and only includes Japanese animation and things that are considered Japanese animation.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 08:20:57 PM »
Quote from: GenkiIchigo
Anime in French means animated, lively or busy...
Don't forget that the root etymology from the French is the Latin word for 'soul' or 'spirit' ...

:-D

In any case, there won't be any AMVs using Titan AE, OK?

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 10:16:33 PM »
Quote from: GenkiIchigo
Anime in French means animated, lively or busy...
Don't forget that the root etymology from the French is the Latin word for 'soul' or 'spirit' ...

Hehe yep! n.n
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Offline BigGuy

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 02:37:31 PM »
so if someone made an awesome Titan AE Amv it would automatically be left out?
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Offline Rathany

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 02:11:23 PM »
Well, on the meaning / derivation of anime, the Oxford English Dictionary says "Anime n:  A cuirass or breastplate, of Italian origin, constructed of plates overlapping in such a way as to allow comparatively flexible movement."

Wait .. what?  Sorry, wrong meaning of anime ...

"[< Japanese anime < French animé (in dessin animé animation, cartoon (1935 or earlier) < dessin drawing (see DESIGN n.) + animé, participial adjective < animer to animate: see ANIMATE v.).] "  So, yes, Japanese got it from the French. 

If 'primary audience is Japanese' becomes the deciding factor, what would that do to shows like Kurokami, which are run on American TV and Japanese TV at the same time?  Are they automatically 50/50?  That would also effect the new Hellsing OAVs, since the original intent of those was also to release the DVDs in both countries at the same time.  I like the 'primary audience' idea in theory, but it gets complicated in practice.  Especially if simul releases becomes the trend. 
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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM »
so if someone made an awesome Titan AE Amv it would automatically be left out?

That wouldn't technically be an AMV:

AMV = Anime Music Video
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Offline GenkiIchigo

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 05:06:25 PM »
Well, on the meaning / derivation of anime, the Oxford English Dictionary says "Anime n:  A cuirass or breastplate, of Italian origin, constructed of plates overlapping in such a way as to allow comparatively flexible movement."

Wait .. what?  Sorry, wrong meaning of anime ...

"[< Japanese anime < French animé (in dessin animé animation, cartoon (1935 or earlier) < dessin drawing (see DESIGN n.) + animé, participial adjective < animer to animate: see ANIMATE v.).] "  So, yes, Japanese got it from the French. 

Lol, I found that cuirass thing someplace too. So weird!

I'm still firm in the belief that Anime came from English. I looked at m-w.com (since my most recent dictionary is a 1978 edition, yay for hand me downs >.<; ) and it stated:
   " an·i·me
Pronunciation:
    \ˈa-nə-ˌmā, ˈä-nē-\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Japanese, animation, short for animēshiyon, from English
Date:
    1988

: a style of animation originating in Japan that is characterized by stark colorful graphics depicting vibrant characters in action-filled plots often with fantastic or futuristic themes"

Since the Japanese use the term 'Animeeshon' and not 'animaashon' It makes perfect sense that it's a shortened version of Animeeshon which is just the English 'Animation' with an accent. XD

It seems that it would be strange for them to go to another language for 'anime' when they were already using 'animeeshon' and could just shorten it like many other English words.

I'm so confused by the rest of this thread. I've never really thought about what was anime and what wasn't. I always just figured that 'made/produced in Japan' meant anime, but I guess it's not quite that easy from reading posts here! Anyway, I'd love to post more but my head has decided that it's migraine time. >.<
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 07:19:10 PM »
Quote from: GenkiIchigo
I've never really thought about what was anime and what wasn't. I always just figured that 'made/produced in Japan' meant anime
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Offline BigGuy

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 09:26:27 AM »
we could just change it to Animated music videos( still equals AMVs) then this entire thread doesn't count  ::)
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Offline BigGuy

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2009, 09:19:16 AM »
I found a really good article that talks about this, it's one persons opinion but they bring up some good points.

entire article here

http://animeworld.com/essays/defineanime.html


"Where do you draw the line?

If one is still going to insist that anime must be Japanese, then we're going to need some more specific information: Exactly what part of the production must be Japanese for it to count?

Is it the writing? If so, how do you categorize Robotech II: The Sentinels, or SiN? Both were financed and written in the US, but animated in "anime style" in Japan, and at least in the case of The Sentinels, you'd never know it "wasn't anime" if you didn't read the credits. Are they anime because they were animated in Japan, or not because they were conceived by a non-Japanese?

Is it the country where the animation was produced? There's nothing but grey area with that definition. Lots of US cartoon studios, for example, have hired Japanese companies to produce animation. The style isn't traditional anime, the writing isn't Japanese, and the funding and target market aren't Japanese either. But, the animation itself is produced in Japan. Few people would call this anime (least of all anime fans), but the hands that put paint to acetate were Japanese.

How about the flip side of the same issue. Most major Japanese animation studios have, for the past decade, farmed work out to animators in Korea, where labor is cheaper. That means that in a Japanese production, you may have a writer who is Japanese, a director who is Japanese, and head artists who are Japanese, but much of the actual artwork is done by Koreans. Where does that fit in?

Perhaps you'd prefer to limit your definition to productions featuring Japanese actors. In that case, where does Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust go? The entire production crew was Japanese, but it was intended from the beginning to be filmed with English-language dialogue. There is a Japanese dub, but it is indeed a dub, produced well after the English version (which was shown, subtitled, in Japanese theaters).

Then there are the really confusing cases: where do you put someone like Adam Warren--starting with Japanese-created characters (the Dirty Pair), and working in anime-style art, but producing a finished product that is completely non-Japanese in origin."

end article quote, my thoughts below

I knew that a lot of American animation was farmed to Korea, but I hadn't heard till reading this that Japanese studios did it also, which does make sense. The character design and story boards done in Japan, but outsourcing  the actual animation itself out to a country with cheaper labor makes things very sticky.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 09:20:23 AM by BigGuy »
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime"
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 01:33:48 PM »
@ Big Dude & friends:

This why I simply collect and submit everything up front, then step aside and convene a panel of judges to get some kind of group consensus from people selected from the Kumoricon (and general anime) fan base.

From what I've observed, what ends up happening is that, compared to a show which, say:
a. was produced by Studio {Whatever} in Ikebukuro, (north side of Tokyo)
b. producers are all Japanese folks living in the general area,
c. the animation was based on a series that ran in one of those Shonen/Weekly/Jump
   3-inch thick manga compilations, printed on yellow or pink paper that you can buy in a
   typical JR station platform kiosk
d. audio is Japanese
e. The show was broadcast on NHK.

Nihil obstat. (Google that one if you need to, it's a cool phrase to know.)
Anyways, "there's nothing there" to generate any questions about "is it anime?"

From that sort of reference, the more aspects of the show in question start deviating from Japanese production and culture, then the more QUESTIONS and DISCUSSIONS start happening within the judges panel. The effect I've observed is that we get kind of a bell curve wherein little "points taken off" feelings accrue. These can be canceled out by the AMV editor's prowess:
- astounding video quality
- surprising and meaningful storyline
- relevance to or resonance with a anime convention audience

... but, generally the more the panel gets into questions about how the eyes in Vampire Hunter D don't really "look right," or how Shin Anguo Onshi started out as a manhwa (Korea) got animated there first and then imported to Japan - - - then the value of that particular AMV drops a little versus some other entry. It may or may not get selected, based on the degree of distracting factors the judges end up discussing. Sooner or later they realize that they're TALKING instead of WATCHING the NEXT AMV, and that one may get booted out of rotation for review later.

Same thing goes for the Japanese Music category. "Well what if two Japanese guys rock out with these two cool Iranian guys with the dumbecks they met up with while chekkin' out the goth-baby-doll scene at the pedestrian overpass at Harajuku station..."** The more discussion that gets generated, then the work moves from the center of the anime bullseye to one of the outer rings. Too far out, and the judges panel won't pick it up, because there are other works to select from, all closer to the center of the target.

**BTW that is just about the best spot in town to bring any instrument, sit on the ground and JUST PLAY. You don't even have to be any good - you'll have a blast.


PS: You could call it Austenitizing Music Videos which would still make "AMV" but this would propably really surprise and disappoint the general Kumoricon audience, except for like two metallurgists in the whole con who would get the joke...

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "I know it when I see it"
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 03:04:12 PM »
This phrase was quoted in the link from Big Guy, and I find it instructive.
( http://animeworld.com/essays/defineanime.html )

The article also says something similar was used for "What's jazz?"
that there's a cultural background context and works that reference enough of that cultural context through the use of musical elements, 'count' as jazz. (Then here comes Bela Fleck on banjo, with a Celtic sounding melody starting off in "True North," but now add a bass line that might well have been Dave Brubeck... )

I think that there are cultural elements in the background of anime shows that establish them as uniquely Japanese, and they simply crop up more often in 'real' anime than 'wannabe' or 'imitation' anime. These elements can serve as a 'seal of authenticity' - especially when Japanese content creators project their cultural markers onto anime stories set outside Japan.
Obvious fun can pop up in shows like Angel Links where you have crocodile-headed space alien who draws a sword (!) using a bent-wrist maneuver right out of traditional Japanese iaido. But it's also fun to see futuristic, spacefaring peoples eat with chopstics, too.

So when evaluating "is this anime" I'd guess that you know you're 'in the zone' when you see some of these things: (Partial list only, feel free to add - this could be FUN, too!)

- Cherry blossom petals means you know it's springtime, momiji for fall.
- Lycoris for funeals and death
- Getting the landscape right: karst topography for parts of the mainland, Hokkaido is kinda like
  Iowa or Indiana on the sea.
- Japanese company logos, or parodies thereof: Zojirushi home appliances, JR trains, SONY...
- The '106' or '109' or '108' or '199' building in Shibuya.
- The Ginza Strip (Tokyo) has a unique architecture for its department stores
- Certain buildings let you know you're in Aki(haba)ra, also the twin-spire gov't bldg in Shinjuku
- TO-ma-re ("Stop!") in kanji at a white stripe stop line.
- Concrete telephone poles, especially with the green school-zone kanji.
- Ramen shops with wooden strips on the walls as menu items. (We always pause the show and try to read these, not only to discover something new to try, but also to use the prices as a guide to guess the era of the show's setting. Like if character in an American move goes to a diner and the menu offers 10-cent coffees and 85-cent Reuben sandwiches, or if the menu includes liver and onions for lunch, or peanut butter and bacon sandwiches.**)
- RxR crossings with light-up arrows to tell which way the train will flatten you if you don't look.
- Electronic noises for RxR, and the 'cross-the-street' melody.
- Yuuyake Ko-yake played at 5pm, Big Ben chimes for large clocktowers in ALL schools
- the enamel pain designs in
- Se-mi cicadas in summer

- There is a certain dove that lives in Japanese cities among the regular pigeons that live in almost all cities worldwide. I don't know its name, but is has a unique call ('Hoo, hoo, grumble grumble.' 'Hoo, hoo, grumble grumble.') The grumble part is a very low tone; we nicked named it 'the Bass Bird.' It's also somewhat funny because it's as if the bird just gets going then starts cussing under its breath: "HOO-Hooo, dammit-i-can't-get-a-date"

 Anyways, I have never heard this bird outside of Japan.
Except in Kaleido Star which is supposed to take place in LA, Calif.
The animators ADDED IN that bird call.

And THAT'S what I mean about accidentally projecting your own culture onto some other setting!

ADD MORE if you see 'em?
:-D

** That is Great Depression era food and not 20yrs ago I was in Boston, MA, about 3 blocks away from Fenway Park, and there was a diner that had peanut butter and bacon sandwich on the menu - for $2.25. If you want a journey of foods and restaurants that almost killed our parents then you can waste an apalling afternoon here.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:03:47 PM by Prinz Eugen »

Offline somanyturtles

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 01:44:55 AM »
 I'm wondering what the ruling on Afro Samurai would be. I looked it up on Wikipedia and it's says it was made by a japanese company but it premeired of Spike TV and was voiced by Samuel L Jacksson, Ron Perlman, and Kelly Hu.

I would also like to say that i vote Yes on Transformers being anime.... but that's kind of swayed due to I am A Protoge of Thundercatlord and that video is friggn' awesome. :)

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 07:45:03 AM »
"Is [this/that show] anime?" I write this any number of times during each season, but the deal is: *I* will submit anything that plays OK to the panel. The only weeding I do is for playback problems or excessively large files. For everything else, I inform the judges of:

- studio, producers, seiyuu names,
- air dates if that is a factor (such as for the 'retro' or 'old school' definitions)
- number of instances (and frames or duration) of 'naughty things' such as words you can't say on the radio, or illicit exposure
- total duration, to compare against any time limit

They, as a group, make the final calls. That means...
Quote
I'm wondering what the ruling on Afro Samurai would be.
... that even *I* get to 'wonder what the ruling will be' up until the judges' day happens!

'Afro Samurai' may generate some discussion because:
- it was first aired outside of Japan (dent!) so that may mean that it was created for the US-based cable-TV fanbase rather than the Japanese audience, and
- the guidelines state that "the primary dialogue is in Japanese," and since there are no Japanese voice actors mentioned, then the AMV might get a dent for that as well.

(Personally to me, from what I can tell it's got the same level of whacked-out Edo-era fun, as say Samurai Champloo, but my own opinion is not part of the pre-screening process...)

And as we said before, dents can be overcome by the AMV just being ENTERTAINING.
(And I can always pick it up in the Pre-Show or the Show if I think it'll rock.)

Here's another possibility: Using the 10% rule, make an AMV using a regular Japanese show, and have some of these other characters drop in as a surprise.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:49:42 PM by Prinz Eugen »

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 02:37:50 PM »
I'm wondering what the ruling on Afro Samurai would be. I looked it up on Wikipedia and it's says it was made by a japanese company but it premeired of Spike TV and was voiced by Samuel L Jacksson, Ron Perlman, and Kelly Hu.

I would also like to say that i vote Yes on Transformers being anime.... but that's kind of swayed due to I am A Protoge of Thundercatlord and that video is friggn' awesome. :)

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Offline somanyturtles

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2009, 12:59:37 AM »

Here's another possibility: Using the 10% rule, make an AMV using a regular Japanese show, and have some of these other characters drop in as a surprise.

Thanks for the advice, i  know now how i can make it work without beeing completely Afro Samurai. (I need Afro in there for the song I want to use)

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2009, 06:52:18 PM »
Figured I'd head this off early so that I could get started some time soon... Some people consider pre-Tezuka animation to be "not anime" because it often relies heavily on the styles of western animators, most notably Walt Disney.

This usually isn't a problem the AMV fandom has to address however the Retro category suddenly gives me an excuse to make use of the enormous torrent of vintage anime my girlfriend found, most of which is silent, black and white, flickery as all hell, and, most disconcertingly, nearly indistinguishable from vintage American animation except for the obvious Japanese cultural elements (my favorite being a very odd short that includes a small child popping out of a giant peach and then beating the crap out of an Oni for very little reason).

I assume this'll be fine, considering they are certainly "made by and for Japanese people", arguably more-so than modern anime (what with titles like Afro Samurai and the exporting of labor to Korea and China). I just want to be my at least 99.9% sure I won't be automatically disqualified.

...and this is all assuming that Retro is still a category this year. And I doubt my video will have much chance of defending my title as "Retro Category Winner" but it's going to be a ton of fun to make so I don't really care. :D I'm placing my bets on a video I'm making for a different category anyway...

Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2009, 04:08:06 PM »
I'm not a judge; but my personal opinion is that there are things we just know are anime (see Guy's earlier large lists of Japanese cultural tells), and then there are things that are anime inspired.

I think various anime inspired things like my two favorite examples should be allowed Invader Zim and Teen Titans.

While they are clearly based in America, they are also clearly inspired by anime.  The eyes, expressions (and emocons), and art clearly not the traditional American styles.

Maybe an 'anime inspired' category is the right place to put these.  It'd be like the current misc category, but for anything that didn't really fit.
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2009, 11:19:39 AM »
I have trouble when it comes to Korean Animated feautures like My Beautiful Girl Mari and Yobi, The Five Tailed Fox.  It doesn't help when even Anime News Network has a listing for My Beautiful Girl Mari, and both are listed on AniDB.  It is obvious when watching that they have the look of Japanese anime, but it is also obvious by listening to them that they aren't Japanese.  :-\  Of course if it is an AMV you don't hear the original dialog anyway, so it is a matter of does it look like a Japanese anime?  I suppose the answer to that would be yes.  I am sure there will be AMV's created using footage from both of the above.  I wonder if the judges will even realize that it isn't a Japanese film.
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Offline thundercatlord

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2009, 12:38:30 PM »
Heh.

I just realized that "My Beautiful Girl Mari" was included in the my packs of footage for AMV Iron Chef this year. I actually used some of it in my vid. I didn't know it was Korean.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs)
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2009, 12:42:15 PM »
@ M-Evans:

Actually, YES they DO. At least some of them. (Others are chosen for other areas of expertise, though - it's always a mix.)
Last year the panel bounced an otherwise decently-made fight AMV done to Shin Anguo Onshi - a Korean Man-hwa-young-hwa.

If not, that's often one of the questions they ask themselves. I can also imagine the following banter:

"Hey, I never saw this show before" (google, google, gmbmg, ...)

"It's a FAKE!  More than half of the guys on production staff are all named Peterson, Luo, Kim... - Kill it!"

** Or similar: "Dude's name is Watanabe, but he's actually a ni-sei who grew up in the Bay area and works at an animation house in L.A. - NAIL 'im!"


@ TCL: That's one of the difficulties in using those Newtype discs, American distributors often try to slip 'counterfeit' anime under the table.
Go to Fry's and you'll CHOKE - I saw "Heavy Metal" in the ANIME section there ....

Put it this way: you can grow Cabernet Sauvignion grapes where ever you want, and you can say so on your wine label, but you can't call it a Bordeaux unless it's made in the right place as designated by appellation.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2009, 01:48:43 PM »
One of this season's new releases just brought up a slightly different take on this question: Hashimoto Takashi & Nakamura Kenji's Trapeze (also known as Sky Swing and Kuuchuu Buranko; who knows why some shows have so many titles). Trapeze employs a strange blend of traditional animation, CG, digitally altered photographs (think GAINAX), and enormous amounts of digitally altered live action; all spliced together in a weird sort of collage. Although I've certainly seen all of these things in anime before, I am shocked by the sheer quantity of live action bits (one of the characters is entirely live-action).

Does this still count as anime? Certainly it fits all of the above criteria about nationality, intended audience, etc, but could someone call their video an "AMV" if 75% of their source footage was only partially animated? I haven't been so intrigued about the status of an anime in a long time, I'm tempted to make an AMV just to see if I can get it past the judges  ;D
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 01:50:14 PM by murder_of_raven »

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2009, 05:45:00 PM »
Quote from: murder_of_raven
Does this still count as anime? Certainly it fits all of the above criteria about nationality, intended audience, etc, but could someone call their video an "AMV" if 75% of their source footage was only partially animated?
Of course, we all have to wait and see what happens at the 2010 barbeque party and French wine tasting um, judging event. This might just be a case of 5th grade math:

   [75% anime] x [duration of said content]
                                                                              >=    0.9?
                       Total duration

Quote
I'm tempted to make an AMV just to see if I can get it past the judges  ;D
The best way to 'get things past' is to ENTERTAIN and INTRIGUE a significant the panel, offend or disengage almost nobody in that diverse group, AND exemplify the objective of the category in question.

For example, if the 'Tension' category runs again, we may have to slap certain people ensure that entrants understand that 'Tension' is not 'Drama,' or 'Emo,' or 'Angst.'

We also have to discuss and eventually create category definitions so people will clearly understand the objectives.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:02:18 PM by Prinz Eugen »

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2009, 06:18:22 PM »
The best way to 'get things past' is to ENTERTAIN and INTRIGUE a significant the panel, offend or disengage almost nobody in that diverse group, AND exemplify the objective of the category in question.

Yeah, I was mostly just kidding. Honestly with the 4 submission cap and the seeming disparity between the submissions I think are my best and what actually makes it into the show, I'd rather focus on making 4 videos that I'm fairly sure have a chance to make it into the show as to avoid the disappointment of having nothing in it. Also, I already have 5 videos I'm trying to have finished by deadline, so I'm already going to have to decide which to submit.

For example, if the 'Tension' category runs again, we may have to slap certain people ensure that entrants understand that 'Tension' is not 'Drama,' or 'Emo,' or 'Angst.'

Actually, about that: my Tension submission had absolutely no "Emo" or "Angst" and, although admittedly hinged on the "Dramatic Tension" of a mother and daughter separated due to class and racial inequality in Latin America, I believe it would have just been, frankly, more enjoyed than a few of the Tension videos that were shown. More than just mentioning "this is not an Emo category" I think the description of Tension needs a complete and total overhaul; last year it seems to have been a vague set of guidelines that were then applied to specifically filter out 3 or 4 videos that were all basically the same content wise.

Or maybe instead the category should just be cut, I remember the audience being clearly nonplussed by that segment; although I must add the addendum that I did enjoy a few of them. Perhaps rather than replacing it with a different category you should instead leave an open slot and make something like a "miscellaneous" category for good videos that don't fit into other categories? Just an idea.

Sorry for the tangent, I just have been looking for a place to say that for a while.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2009, 06:57:29 AM »
Quote from: murder_of_raven
Quote from: Prinz Eugen
For example, if the 'Tension' category runs again, we may have to slap certain people ensure that entrants understand that 'Tension' is not 'Drama,' or 'Emo,' or 'Angst.'
Actually, about that: my Tension submission had absolutely no "Emo" or "Angst" and,
Please be assured that my previous comments were *not* directed at your works, but other entries - especially of a sort which had the judges calling 'Fail' or 'Bin it' aloud within their first 10 - 30 seconds.

Another behaviour I have observed at a DIFFERENT selection event (not the Kumoricon contest) is at the initial 'Auuuggh' point about 15 sec in, someone may drag the playback pointer to about 1/2 or 2/3 of the way along and ask 'Does this go anywhere?' and if the sa-hong sung by the grundgy da-hood still sounds the sa-hame* as at the 15 second mark, then it was pretty much sunk.

Or the whiney-whiney female vocalist still sounds oh-so-plaintive...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2009, 03:05:25 PM »
Please be assured that my previous comments were *not* directed at your works, but other entries - especially of a sort which had the judges calling 'Fail' or 'Bin it' aloud within their first 10 - 30 seconds.

Well I mean, that's good to hear, but you would certainly be entailed to that opinion if it was. I just think that conceptually it might not be the sort of category k-con anime contest viewers are going for... I have several friends who try to intentionally "get there late" so they miss the "boring first half" or who simply don't go because they don't like sitting through the "boring" categories. Certainly that's nobody's fault (as the contest is really a collaboration of a lot of people, not just the creators of the individual AMVs) but I think it's easy to forget not everybody is an "AMV enthusiast" and that people who aren't tend to find the tension, action, etc. categories sort of boring. Sometimes I question the judges' opinions when it seems like the majority of the audience doesn't like an entire category....

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: "But is it Anime" (For AMVs) esp. 'Tranformers.'
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2009, 08:24:19 PM »
Quote from: murder_of_raven
I have several friends who try to intentionally "get there late" so they miss the "boring first half" [ ... ] Sometimes I question the judges' opinions when it seems like the majority of the audience doesn't like an entire category....
We are definitely aware of this effect and work with it, so that we burn off weaker categories or experimental categories in a single group. Then the judges build intensity and interest towards the end.

Also, I am totally comfortable with the idea that over a 3+ hour event almost EVERYBODY will need a restroom break or just need to get up and move a bit, and I try to work the room so that there's a easy, unobtrusive way in and out which doesn't addle the light or sound. This isn't like a play where if you're out it's 'impolite' to sneak in during the middle of things.

Killing off the 'Drama/Boring' category took a few years of winnowing down; when I first tried to cut it 'cold turkey' I got a barrage of drama-fans who all but DEMANDED that we keep it. But the audience panned it and now it's pretty much gone.

Let's switch the category definition discussions and analyses to the new thread started for that topic.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 08:26:39 PM by Prinz Eugen »