Banned Costumes/Cosplay?

[ZombieFace]

Hello,

I was curious if there was a list of costumes that were banned from Kumoricon 2008? I know of one costume banned on 2 occasions from this years Kumoricon.  But I was hoping I could get a list compiled of what is acceptable and what was obviously NOT acceptable (banned).

Here, I'll start:

PedoBear - This is a very frusterating situation for me, I was not pleased with how KumoriCon handled this.

[Deviant Spider]

Personally I was very happy that pedobear was banned. (its personal, dont ask. Id rather keep my oppinions to my self on the forum. Message me if you want personal oppinions)

I do know of another costume as well that was banned, but that was a huge dress code violation. A young lady dressed as Nyu/Lucy from Elfen Lied wasnt wearing enough bandages to be deemed public.

[~boogiepop~]

There were some inappropriate costumes at this con. Usually I wouldn't care but walking around this year I realized how many young kids come to these conventions. I saw way more kids under the age of 13 then I ever have. K-con is a family friendly con and I know if I was a parent I wouldn't want a half bandaged girl or pedobear running around my children. Plus I had no idea there was a Pedobear at con but whoever did that is complete idiot considering there was a thread during this season of con I do believe about someone wanting to bring a Pedobear costume to con and the replies were full of the staff saying that was a big no-no and it wouldn't be allowed at con.

So once again I say, thanks staff for keeping things in check.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Isn't Pedobear a fursuit costume with nothing showing?

I mean, if we're going to ban costumes because of the characters, why do we have Murakis running around*? If the cosplayer starts acting in character, then they can be kicked, but the costume in and of itself ought to be perfectly fine.

(*or, moreover, King Bradley? I'd say enforcing genocide is a hell of a lot worse than molestation)

[The Night Bringer]

Im thinking it was banned more for the affiliation to pedophilia than anything else. It could be very bad for Kumoricon if people started thinking they were okay with such concepts.

[TomtheFanboy]

The pedobear debate is done, gone, and it actually got locked up and thrown down a well last time. this discussion can continue but please remember not to rant and just discuss the costumes that were banned.

For the record, Kumoricon is a PG-13 convention, that is our official stance on things. This year there were plenty of costumes allowed that technically broke the rules in one or two places. The one I noticed the most was the rule about bikini tops and costumes having to cover "sides of the breast", big surprise (both that it was allowed and that I noticed it). 

There was also a lot of mask wearing in the front lobby area where the hotel wanted masks off, not sure how mad the hotel got about that though. I was told to remove my mask several times when I was in my zim costume. Luckily I had a mask on top of my head-sock for just such occasions.

[XFD]

From what I have heard he wasn't banned, but put off until after 11pm or something. Still, the number of little kids around him was kind of

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Im thinking it was banned more for the affiliation to pedophilia than anything else. It could be very bad for Kumoricon if people started thinking they were okay with such concepts.

So how about Mr Kimura then? I swear we've had at least one of those...

[The Night Bringer]

Hmm, you know I never really thought of that. Mr. Kimura is pretty creepy...

[kylite]

We encountered a couple of costumes with string bikinis, and in each case hawkeye was the one to handle it. Each was deemed acceptable due to our own rules of allowing a costume which covers more then 60% of the body.

and as to the pedobear thing, the topic is dead but I will say this, One picture of that bear around children with kumoricon badges getting to the local papers and kumoricon would be GONE. DONE. FINISHED! so to put it bluntly, if you are so angry about having to change costumes, tough. Its better to upset one attendee and keep the con going then to please the one attendee and ruin it for EVERYONE!

[TanisNikana]

We encountered a couple of costumes with string bikinis, and in each case hawkeye was the one to handle it. Each was deemed acceptable due to our own rules of allowing a costume which covers more then 60% of the body.

and as to the pedobear thing, the topic is dead but I will say this, One picture of that bear around children with kumoricon badges getting to the local papers and kumoricon would be GONE. DONE. FINISHED! so to put it bluntly, if you are so angry about having to change costumes, tough. Its better to upset one attendee and keep the con going then to please the one attendee and ruin it for EVERYONE!

Quoted for the effin' truth.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

I honestly don't see how, or that anyone would actually know who it was other than internet geeks. Besides, we had people playing characters who do far worse.

[TanisNikana]

Leeroy's other cosplay was P-Bear, and when he raised the issue, his own mother said "don't worry, if they're not from the internet, they won't get it".

This means that his mother knew what it meant, and thought it appropriate.

Scares the hell out of me.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

I honestly don't see how, or that anyone would actually know who it was other than internet geeks. Besides, we had people playing characters who do far worse.

Well consider this Mr. Kimura while a very scary person, has a happy marige with wife and kids, and is only used for a comical sense and is on a far leser known level than that of Pedobear.

Now Pedobear is actualy more well known by a lot of people and although he is also used for comedy and what not the diffrence is he actualy DOES try to rape the children, (sorry if thats offensive) unlike Kimura who just dreams about it... while some may not reckognize him if it was a simple bear costume, if perhaps they put a signe around their neck claiming they were Pedobear, or if the bear costume was simpley good enough people could tell, then thats a big problem considering who Pedobear is....

While other costumes are inapropriat, and possibley of a character that is a killer, or commits other horrid crimes, can also be bad, its really consideration of what the public deems worthy of being a horrid horrid thing to dress up as... the con simply has little control of how the public reacts to these things, they just abide by the general rules so they can keep going. as said before if a picture of a kid around some one reckognizabley dressed as Pedobear gets realsed to the public then kumoricon is gone for good.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Honestly I'd rather see someone dressed as a fictional molester than a Nazi. And I've seen those before (not this year, but before) and I don't think anyone tried to stop them.

There were, however, a fair amount of costumes that were clearly Nazi-inspired. I mean, you and I know that's not the connotation they were going for, but the average person on the street is a hell of a lot more likely to recognize that than an internet bear.

[Acheron]

:/ There's a difference between cosplaying someone like King Bradley, or Ganondorf, or any other fictional villain, and between cosplaying a creepy bear used by a skeevy imageboard to effectively say "pedophilia is awesome!". It's very easy to step back and say to the former, "Alright, this is just fictional, I know he's not really going to kill people", but (for some people, mainly those with kids) it's harder to separate "Pedobear" from "molesting and raping children".

o____o; I know I wouldn't mind personally if anyone did a Pedobear cosplay if this was a teen and up con, but as it is, it'd be super uncool to do that around all the little kids.

Also, what. I have never, ever, ever seen anyone who was cosplaying as a Nazi, or was even thinking about it. Not this year, not last year, not any year before that, not at this con and not at any con. Also, Godwin's Law, you lose the arguement.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Godwin's is overused, and used incorrectly in this context. I wasn't comparing anyone *to* fascists (which is what it says, not just Nazis), I was pointing out that people *have* done those uniforms and costumes inspired by them. Also it wasn't an arguement, it was a discussion.

There *are* Nazis in anime, you realize. FMA and Hellsing are two such series, and those are both insanely popular to cosplay. But I don't see anyone worrying that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is going to shut us down.

[Rathany]

I honestly don't see how, or that anyone would actually know who it was other than internet geeks. Besides, we had people playing characters who do far worse.

Well consider this Mr. Kimura while a very scary person, has a happy marige with wife and kids, and is only used for a comical sense and is on a far leser known level than that of Pedobear.

Now Pedobear is actualy more well known by a lot of people and although he is also used for comedy and what not the diffrence is he actualy DOES try to rape the children, (sorry if thats offensive) unlike Kimura who just dreams about it... while some may not reckognize him if it was a simple bear costume, if perhaps they put a signe around their neck claiming they were Pedobear, or if the bear costume was simpley good enough people could tell, then thats a big problem considering who Pedobear is....

While other costumes are inapropriat, and possibley of a character that is a killer, or commits other horrid crimes, can also be bad, its really consideration of what the public deems worthy of being a horrid horrid thing to dress up as... the con simply has little control of how the public reacts to these things, they just abide by the general rules so they can keep going. as said before if a picture of a kid around some one reckognizabley dressed as Pedobear gets realsed to the public then kumoricon is gone for good.

Very good points.  Also, from what little internet research I have been able to stand to do, ALL PedoBear does is try to go bad things to kids.  There is a huge difference between a character with a bad or comical side and a character whose sole purpose is to try to do things to kids.

Also, it was known via the forums that someone had planned to come to Kcon dressed as PedoBear and cause problems.  There were also agressive emails to directors.  Honestly, in retrospect we likely should have tried to figure out which attendee this was and have his badge yanked before the con even started.  Anyone being that abusive to our staff should not be allowed to attend.  

There were two other cosplayers involved in this.  One was a PedoBear who was asked to change.  Even if we allowed this, he likely would have been stopped by every Yoji and Exec for fear that he was our trouble maker.  There was also a furry there dressed as a bear who was NOT trying to be PedoBear.  He was cleared by Yojis to go about his bussiness.  

So, yes we should have handled this better.  We were too nice and hoped that our problem attendee would do as he was told and just enjoy the con like everyone else.

Also, now we ARE going to need new rules to restrict cosplays.  We DID NOT want to have to do this.  We have had various adult cosplays with no problems before.  Trying to find a wording that will ban PedoBear but allow other cosplays will be hard.

Darnnit, according to forum rules about PG-13 we should have even be discussing Pedo-things.  The reason the other thread got yanked was due to discussion of Pedo activities on a PG-13 board.  Maybe 'if the name of your character cannot be said in a PG-13 setting, then NO' might be a good place to start with the rule.  

Oh, and PedoBear is will known off of 4Chan.  He is in many forum sigs on many, many forums.  When I did my research back when this started, 4Chan wasn't even the top result.  

We want our attendees to feel safe at our con.  PedoBear makes many of our attendees, volunteers and staff feel unsafe.  If he even puts a friendly had on someone's shoulder it's an implied sexual threat.  

[Rathany]

Godwin's is overused, and used incorrectly in this context. I wasn't comparing anyone *to* fascists (which is what it says, not just Nazis), I was pointing out that people *have* done those uniforms and costumes inspired by them. Also it wasn't an arguement, it was a discussion.

There *are* Nazis in anime, you realize. FMA and Hellsing are two such series, and those are both insanely popular to cosplay. But I don't see anyone worrying that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is going to shut us down.

No one is saying that people cannot play villians or bad people.  See my post above. 

[BlackjackGabbiani]

But I'm saying that a cosplayer of a Nazi character would raise a hell of a lot more red flags with the general populace than "someone dressed as a bear" if the picture appeared in the paper. Everyone knows what Nazis are. Very few people who don't go online know what Pedobear is.

Darnnit, according to forum rules about PG-13 we should have even be discussing Pedo-things.  The reason the other thread got yanked was due to discussion of Pedo activities on a PG-13 board.  Maybe 'if the name of your character cannot be said in a PG-13 setting, then NO' might be a good place to start with the rule.

You can't even *SAY* "pedo" in a pg-13 setting? I'm positive you can, otherwise those Movies of the Week wouldn't be rated PG-13 and those often deal with a hell of a lot worse.

[Acheron]

Yes, yes, I know how Godwin's Law goes. I'm sorry if you think it's overused.

The difference between the vampire/werewolf/whatever nazis in Hellsing, the alternate universe(? I have no idea when nazis appeared in FMA, but I read the manga, not watch the anime) nazis in FMA, and Pedobear is their goals. (And their costume... if someone was wearing an authentic, true to life Nazi uniform, I agree that shouldn't be allowed, but the costumes of fictional Nazis aren't so blatant)

The characters killed people and did terrible things. But you know the Schrodinger or Major or Rip Van cosplayer isn't going to kill you. And yes, you do know that the creep in the Pedobear outfit isn't going to kidnap your children and rape them. But it's a hell of a lot more realistic than the Hellsing cosplayers murdering people. The Big Bad villains with their plans of world domination have refuge in audacity, but Pedobear doesn't.

Plus, Rathany said it well: We want everyone to feel comfortable at Kumoricon. It's three days dedicated to everything that you love, you should feel safe and secure and at home. One person not being able to dress up as a raping bear vs. others sense of security? Sense of security wins every time.

[xxxchihiroxxx]

Thanks Rathany :3 you covered some good points as well

and Blackjack, yes it would and I dont think a Nazi character would be aloud at the con eather, unless perhaps they were mocking the Nazi and what not but even then I'm not sure (I'm not staff after all)

And no Pedo related topics should not be discussed on a PG-13 bored, while used in others by the Kumoricon standerds that deals a LOT with young kids Pedo is a big NO NO we actualy shouldnt be talking about it now... Its also really how you talk about it and how long you do, a quick joke that perhaps a kid not might understand could be slipped by with out much thought but a whole discusion dedicated to a movie about Pedo? no. Consider that perhaps a movie dedicated about a Pedo would be rated R? as uposed to it just dealing with it slightly like maybe an episode of CSI where the crimnal happens to be a Pedo but they dont go far into what he DOES just that he is.

[Rathany]

But I'm saying that a cosplayer of a Nazi character would raise a hell of a lot more red flags with the general populace than "someone dressed as a bear" if the picture appeared in the paper. Everyone knows what Nazis are. Very few people who don't go online know what Pedobear is.

We are not talking about general populace.  We are talking about our attendees.  

Also, is this theoretical situation okay:

Man walks down street full of general populace full of kids.  They swarm to him and someone takes pics.  These pics wind up on the internet and these innocent kids are now in pics where the implication is that the bear is about to try to do bad things to them

A picture with PedoBear even looking at kids is by it's very nature not innocent.  

Darnnit, according to forum rules about PG-13 we should have even be discussing Pedo-things.  The reason the other thread got yanked was due to discussion of Pedo activities on a PG-13 board.  Maybe 'if the name of your character cannot be said in a PG-13 setting, then NO' might be a good place to start with the rule.

You can't even *SAY* "pedo" in a pg-13 setting? I'm positive you can, otherwise those Movies of the Week wouldn't be rated PG-13 and those often deal with a hell of a lot worse.

In the movies of the week there is also a different context.  This is why movies go from PG-13 to R these says if people are smoking and it is not an historical film.  

Though, my statement is questionable.  What is PG-13 and what is not is subjective.  There was a recent movie about how messed up and inconsistant ratings systems are.  We may need to spend alot of time making more precise forum rules.  Just give us some time, ok?  It would be kid of silly for this board to make a bunch of rules if the next wants to change them.  I don't want to pass problems onto the next board, but it might make more sense to leave it to them.  

In the meantime, Blackjack, if you, personally, are having trouble understanding my statement, let me know and I will try to arrange a time for us to talk about this.  

[edited because I am tired and make stupid spelling mistakes when i am tired]

[JeffT]

PedoBear as a franchise exists for the sole purpose of glamorizing child molestation as a spectacle.

Movies and anime featuring nazis as villians or even protagonists typically do not glorify nazism, racism, or genocide.

It's not just the representation that matters, but its context in the franchise.

[XFD]

In reading the posts here, I think there is a perception divide about what Kumoricon is about.

I read the side who is pro-pedo-bear costume knows that the gimmik is a ridiculous joke on 4chan. They perceive the running gag as a component of the fan culture and group it in the same vein as OS-tans, internet memes and the like. They know that there is far more chance that the person cosplaying PB is along for the joke of it and shares a common theme of fandom, usually 4chan. So Kumoricon is an event for the fans, so things the fans enjoy should be fine especially when they see other kinds of cosplayers in similar tones.

The other side is the con Covering their Butts; the convention isn't just for existing fans, but for parents of little fans. It's a very general audience venture so jokes and gimmiks that exist inside of the fandom aren't seen with their intent, only the black-and-white context of the joke which is often exceptionally crude and unfunny (Think "bi*** get back in the kitchen and make me some chicken pot pie!" you are likely to get the joke, but tell that to a woman off the street and you'll probably have some painful experiences). Because of this, the staff have to dilute some aspects of the fandom to make it 'edible.' So it then isn't an event for *the* fans, but it's an event for the public where the fans are the bulk of the attendees.


That's my readings of this anyway. Personally I'm divided, I get #2 but have mixed feelings about becoming so generic with who the event is aimed at, that it loses it's identity. We're still small enough (not for long though T_T) that with #2 we still are in touch with #1; it's that balance which is difficult.

[Teuvan]

Personally I was very happy that pedobear was banned. (its personal, dont ask. Id rather keep my oppinions to my self on the forum. Message me if you want personal oppinions)

I do know of another costume as well that was banned, but that was a huge dress code violation. A young lady dressed as Nyu/Lucy from Elfen Lied wasnt wearing enough bandages to be deemed public.

Tears. I am crying tears of regret for not having seen this. See my avatar for the reason why.

[Rathany]

In reading the posts here, I think there is a perception divide about what Kumoricon is about.

I read the side who is pro-pedo-bear costume knows that the gimmik is a ridiculous joke on 4chan. They perceive the running gag as a component of the fan culture and group it in the same vein as OS-tans, internet memes and the like. They know that there is far more chance that the person cosplaying PB is along for the joke of it and shares a common theme of fandom, usually 4chan. So Kumoricon is an event for the fans, so things the fans enjoy should be fine especially when they see other kinds of cosplayers in similar tones.

The other side is the con Covering their Butts; the convention isn't just for existing fans, but for parents of little fans. It's a very general audience venture so jokes and gimmiks that exist inside of the fandom aren't seen with their intent, only the black-and-white context of the joke which is often exceptionally crude and unfunny (Think "bi*** get back in the kitchen and make me some chicken pot pie!" you are likely to get the joke, but tell that to a woman off the street and you'll probably have some painful experiences). Because of this, the staff have to dilute some aspects of the fandom to make it 'edible.' So it then isn't an event for *the* fans, but it's an event for the public where the fans are the bulk of the attendees.


That's my readings of this anyway. Personally I'm divided, I get #2 but have mixed feelings about becoming so generic with who the event is aimed at, that it loses it's identity. We're still small enough (not for long though T_T) that with #2 we still are in touch with #1; it's that balance which is difficult.

Well, there are ways to deal with this divide.  We DO have adult-only content.  If people want 18+ Cosplay Events, Art Shows, meetups, etc, this can be done.  We just need people willing to run them.  *hinthint*  And, well, we need more of our awesome Yojis to check IDs and keep the kiddies away.

In truth, we try to play to many audiences.  Kids, teens, adults, parents.  Also, anime fans, lolis, goth lolis, jpop fans, live action fans, free-sake-tasting fans, even those freaky people who like to play Go.   We can have balance, as long as people are being jerks about it and are respectfull of the fact that we do need to cover our butts and protect minors. 

I'd love to see us have more 18+ (and 21+) programming. 

[BlackjackGabbiani]

But I'm saying that a cosplayer of a Nazi character would raise a hell of a lot more red flags with the general populace than "someone dressed as a bear" if the picture appeared in the paper. Everyone knows what Nazis are. Very few people who don't go online know what Pedobear is.

We are not talking about general populace.  We are talking about our attendees.  

"Our attendees" get it though. People earlier were talking about "if the pictures wound up in the paper", which IS the general populace.

Also, is this theoretical situation okay:

Man walks down street full of general populace full of kids.  They swarm to him and someone takes pics.  These pics wind up on the internet and these innocent kids are now in pics where the implication is that the bear is about to try to do bad things to them

Yes. Yes it is. Because it's in perception rather than intent. Someone in a costume is not the source of the costume and I would really hope that the people here would get that.

[Deviant Spider]

Personally I was very happy that pedobear was banned. (its personal, dont ask. Id rather keep my oppinions to my self on the forum. Message me if you want personal oppinions)

I do know of another costume as well that was banned, but that was a huge dress code violation. A young lady dressed as Nyu/Lucy from Elfen Lied wasnt wearing enough bandages to be deemed public.

Tears. I am crying tears of regret for not having seen this. See my avatar for the reason why.

LOL. Agreed. I also dressed as Lucy with long hair. Love the anime. And the Manga actually. As graphic as it might be.

[XFD]

Well, there are ways to deal with this divide.  We DO have adult-only content.  If people want 18+ Cosplay Events, Art Shows, meetups, etc, this can be done.  We just need people willing to run them.  *hinthint*  And, well, we need more of our awesome Yojis to check IDs and keep the kiddies away.

In truth, we try to play to many audiences.  Kids, teens, adults, parents.  Also, anime fans, lolis, goth lolis, jpop fans, live action fans, free-sake-tasting fans, even those freaky people who like to play Go.   We can have balance, as long as people are being jerks about it and are respectfull of the fact that we do need to cover our butts and protect minors. 

I'd love to see us have more 18+ (and 21+) programming. 

Every time I try to think up a means to gradiate the attendees for difference groups it always comes up with holes. With this kind of thing I suck and would just suggest if people want their cake and be able to eat it they should make a 16+ or 18+ only convention, or find facilities which offer 3 usable building spaces: 1 for general con (games, video rooms, etc), 2. dealer room, 3. 17+/18+/whatever for all the relevant stuff. Each solution comes with some nasty problems though

And as far as people who run the oddball panels... eh I'm not very diverse in what I can host.

[Rathany]

Well, there are ways to deal with this divide.  We DO have adult-only content.  If people want 18+ Cosplay Events, Art Shows, meetups, etc, this can be done.  We just need people willing to run them.  *hinthint*  And, well, we need more of our awesome Yojis to check IDs and keep the kiddies away.

In truth, we try to play to many audiences.  Kids, teens, adults, parents.  Also, anime fans, lolis, goth lolis, jpop fans, live action fans, free-sake-tasting fans, even those freaky people who like to play Go.   We can have balance, as long as people are being jerks about it and are respectfull of the fact that we do need to cover our butts and protect minors. 

I'd love to see us have more 18+ (and 21+) programming. 

Every time I try to think up a means to gradiate the attendees for difference groups it always comes up with holes. With this kind of thing I suck and would just suggest if people want their cake and be able to eat it they should make a 16+ or 18+ only convention, or find facilities which offer 3 usable building spaces: 1 for general con (games, video rooms, etc), 2. dealer room, 3. 17+/18+/whatever for all the relevant stuff. Each solution comes with some nasty problems though

And as far as people who run the oddball panels... eh I'm not very diverse in what I can host.

We've done pretty well with having PG-13 space and 18+ space I think.  I do think that 18+ cons are a good idea, though.  Yaoi-con is 18+ for, well, obvious reasons.  Though, even there we can't have nakkie men running through the halls as it's public space. 

Public space and not freaking out the hotel are both things we need to consider.  On an mailing list for con organizers some people were talking about 2 months back about how the hotel freaked over content a panel alledgely had and not only can they not renew thier contract at that venue, they have been blacklisted from every hotel in the city.  Last I heard the con had no options but to shut down.  Kcon so far has a very good relationship with the hotels in Portland we need to preserve that.  We get known as trouble makers and if we are lucky we only need to deal with paying more for venuew space.  If we are unlucky ...  This isn't just an issue of how big the con is getting.  If we were smaller we'd be even more vulnerable to certain problems. 

[superjaz]

i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about

[XFD]

We've done pretty well with having PG-13 space and 18+ space I think.  I do think that 18+ cons are a good idea, though.  Yaoi-con is 18+ for, well, obvious reasons.  Though, even there we can't have nakkie men running through the halls as it's public space. 

Public space and not freaking out the hotel are both things we need to consider.  On an mailing list for con organizers some people were talking about 2 months back about how the hotel freaked over content a panel alledgely had and not only can they not renew thier contract at that venue, they have been blacklisted from every hotel in the city.  Last I heard the con had no options but to shut down.  Kcon so far has a very good relationship with the hotels in Portland we need to preserve that.  We get known as trouble makers and if we are lucky we only need to deal with paying more for venuew space.  If we are unlucky ...  This isn't just an issue of how big the con is getting.  If we were smaller we'd be even more vulnerable to certain problems. 

That actually sounds suspiciously like AX some years ago where a dealer sold some "questionable" goods to a minor and got the whole lot in trouble. Granted, AX is a terrible convention  

When I mention 18+ con, I don't mean pr0n only, but space which is less sensitive to the mediums which the fans choose to express (language, wear, etc).

Another point which just crossed my mind with respect to the news paper example is that the media will blow anything they can out of proportion wherever possible. If it isn't the end of the world, it isn't going to sell. "Teddy bear with a group of kids" (what it appears to a normie) will be sold to the masses as, "Japanese cartoon convention promotes pedophilia with mascot" or something similar. When you're trying to keep a large event going with the traditional masses looming your perimiter you have to tread very carefully lest you step on a landmine

edit:

i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about

You have to be very careful with this thinking. If what you think has more validity than what someone else thinks, does this mean that some other person still has more validity than you do? It's one thing for a convention which has a staff/board/comittee to create policy, but in general you have to accept that what you believe doesn't mean it's any more right than what I believe; its the social contract of our system which permits dissenting thoughts and allows satire of every-day situations (good or not).

[reppy]

People freak out about pedophilia, rightfully so.  If word gets out a few people dressed up like Nazis at a convention, there'd be some ruffled feathers, but I seriously doubt there'd be too grave a concern. HOWEVER, if word gets out that there's "pedophiles" at a convention, even if it's just a joke, you can rest assured that convention will have a hard time renting a place in that area again.

[Rathany]

We've done pretty well with having PG-13 space and 18+ space I think.  I do think that 18+ cons are a good idea, though.  Yaoi-con is 18+ for, well, obvious reasons.  Though, even there we can't have nakkie men running through the halls as it's public space. 

Public space and not freaking out the hotel are both things we need to consider.  On an mailing list for con organizers some people were talking about 2 months back about how the hotel freaked over content a panel alledgely had and not only can they not renew thier contract at that venue, they have been blacklisted from every hotel in the city.  Last I heard the con had no options but to shut down.  Kcon so far has a very good relationship with the hotels in Portland we need to preserve that.  We get known as trouble makers and if we are lucky we only need to deal with paying more for venuew space.  If we are unlucky ...  This isn't just an issue of how big the con is getting.  If we were smaller we'd be even more vulnerable to certain problems. 

That actually sounds suspiciously like AX some years ago where a dealer sold some "questionable" goods to a minor and got the whole lot in trouble. Granted, AX is a terrible convention  

When I mention 18+ con, I don't mean pr0n only, but space which is less sensitive to the mediums which the fans choose to express (language, wear, etc).

Another point which just crossed my mind with respect to the news paper example is that the media will blow anything they can out of proportion wherever possible. If it isn't the end of the world, it isn't going to sell. "Teddy bear with a group of kids" (what it appears to a normie) will be sold to the masses as, "Japanese cartoon convention promotes pedophilia with mascot" or something similar. When you're trying to keep a large event going with the traditional masses looming your perimiter you have to tread very carefully lest you step on a landmine

The 18+ space isn't just about prons.  It's about anything that is not good for the PG-13 space.  We want to flush things out into a full adult track of programming that is alot more than just prons.  However, this, like many things, comes down to having more people who want to do the work.  

Also, with what you said about the media, there is nothing more dangerous than a slow news day.  Maybe it's good that we are later than most cons and closer to elections?  

[CharlotteElbourne]

I'm scared that Kumoricon would get shut down ;_;

My personal opinion is that there should be a list of costumes that are deemed inappropriate for the convention that violate a pg-13 rating. Others that violate a few rules might have to be adjusted so that the costume doesn't break any of them...

What we could do, if possible, is have a forum where people post their planned costumes and post pictures of the costume/character and have the officials of the convention decide if they would be accepted or not. They could say if they don't want it there, or give advice to help modify it to where it would be accepted. Or they could send their planned costume pictures to an official and receive private messages from them to avoid flames on the forums if it might happen.

And if someone is joking/telling others that they will plan on being a banned character/inappropriate character on the forums, the IP address's are logged and they can be reported and traced back to the individuals home/workplace, can't they? Their badges could be pulled for that convention unless they appeal it and come to the con without the costume. Plus we could have more staff check for inappropriate outfits and have stricter rules about them. Like they would have to change or leave the convention space for the day...

These are just my ideas ^^;

[Teuvan]

i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about

I firmly believe that everything should be joked about.

[Teepet]

Just to add to the nazi vs. pb debate: Neo-Nazis and the like have rights in this country.  Pedophiles, not so much.  I think I might've seen a Nazi-ish cosplay this year when I was rushing through the reg area, I definitely saw a costume out of the corner of my eye and heard someone talking about how Nazis are hot (wtf, really?  For some reason that convo caught my attention). 

[koru-kun]

i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about

I firmly believe that everything should be joked about.

indeed. PB is funny, the subject may not be, but PB himself is.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Just to add to the nazi vs. pb debate: Neo-Nazis and the like have rights in this country.  Pedophiles, not so much. 

Actually, it's perfectly legal to be a pedophile. Just not to *act* on it.

[Serika]

Speaking as someone who's a little "out of the loop" with anime (which I think is kind of good in this situation, but ah well)...

Let's look at the Pedobear cosplay vs the nazi cosplay I saw sometime during the con. 

I know who pedobear is, I know who cosplayed him, we are sort of friends/acquaintances.  I thought the joke was hilarious.  I had no issue with it.  Anyone covering Kumoricon who snaps a picture with a giant bear is going to think one of the following things...

A) He's a giant cuddly teddy bear.
B) He's a furry.
C) He's an internet meme.

With A!  There's no problem with that whatsoever.  If it's portrayed as being cuddly in the article, it's cuddly.  Congrats, K-con is kid-friendly and entertaining to kids. 
B! Furries are a little different.  While I am pretty sure most of them are very good, wholesome people (exchanged a few words with one while waiting in line, she seemed nice and friendly enough), furries generally are not known for being kind people.  Often, they are considered below people.  I'm sure any article talking about this would reference the CSI episode at least once, and at least one...interviewee might say how all furries are sex-crazed homosexual animal abusers.  Or at least, to a lesser extent.  The idea would be there.  If we didn't want this image though, all furry costumes would need to be banned... This doesn't affect me in any way, but it's still unfair to the majority that doesn't go around kidnapping sheep and whatnot. 
C! First off, the reporter will need to know the joke to recognize that Pedobear is, indeed, a pedophile.  And here's the thing... If they know the joke, chances arre they will know that it is, indeed, a JOKE.  It seems VERY unlikely to me that any random reporter on the street is going to recognize a bear as being a pedophile and think they're serious.  Of course, I'm not involved in the news world too much, but really, use some common sense here.  While it is very possible this idea could be brought up, the ONLY WAY the reporter could identify the bear as being a pedophile was if s/he knew it was a JOKE. 

Now, for the nazi whatsits.  I haven't watched any anime involving nazis, and seeing a cosplayer dressed like this made me do a double take and disturbed me a little.  I recognized it was a character since there was a skirt and all that good stuff, but honestly, this DID BOTHER ME. 

How many ways can news reporters see a nazi character at an anime convention?

A) They're an anime character. 
B) They're an anime character promoting genocide, interracting with a fairly large group of younger, impressionable people, possibly off-con space in the park...

Can you see where this is going? 

The nazi costume I saw was well made, what I did notice of it.  Regardless, it was still shocking and...as I've said, a little disturbing. 


Someone else has mentioned random people on the street recognizing this and that, and...okay.  EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE knows who the nazis are, and can identify them by their swastika arm bands (which was how I recoginzed them).  Someone who sees a full-sized bear walking around an anime convention most likely won't think of the meme at first!  They'll think "Oh, there goes a furry." I KNOW that if I hadn't known this person was going to be pedobear beforehand, that's what I would have thought, and while I don't frequent 4chan, I do go on Encyclopedia Dramatica a lot.  I know the character, I've seen the pictures, and even then it wouldn't have registered. 


...so yeah there's my two cents

[Daxe]

Im just curious... is this the nazi everyone is talking about?

[Serika]

Im just curious... is this the nazi everyone is talking about?
[PICTURE!]

I don't know about anyone else, but no, the person I saw was female and wearing tan/olive colors.

[TanisNikana]

I believe that everyone here understands that no one's opinion on the subject will change, and that the only opinion that matters, that of Altonimbus Entertainment, will not change.

This does not need to be discussed any further.

[AnimeMatrix]

I believe that everyone here understands that no one's opinion on the subject will change, and that the only opinion that matters, that of Altonimbus Entertainment, will not change.

This does not need to be discussed any further.

Nominated, and seconded.

[JeffT]

Due to at least one inappropriate post, and things starting to spiral out of control, I have had to lock this thread. It might be re-opened in the future.

[JeffT]

I've unlocked it, and discussion can continue, but please remember, keep it civil. This thread itself is not inappropriate, just a bit of the discussion that was happening shortly before the lock was (some of this was removed). There's good discussion here so I wanted to give that a chance to continue.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

Well, it'd be nice to see a more complete list of what you consider inappropiate costumes, and open that for discussion. Especially since this came down to a specific character who would only be inappropiate if the viewer had knowledge of the character rather than what the character looks/dresses like.

I know some cons banned costumes like Kekko Kamen because the character is naked and most cosplayers wear skin-colored body suits, but to me a body suit is still sufficient coverage. The appearence of nudity isn't the same as actual nudity, after all.

[TanisNikana]

I believe that everyone here understands that no one's opinion on the subject will change, and that the only opinion that matters, that of Altonimbus Entertainment, will not change.

This does not need to be discussed any further.

Requoting myself as to note that the contents of my quote are not to be underestimated.

[Rathany]

Well, it'd be nice to see a more complete list of what you consider inappropiate costumes, and open that for discussion. Especially since this came down to a specific character who would only be inappropiate if the viewer had knowledge of the character rather than what the character looks/dresses like.

I know some cons banned costumes like Kekko Kamen because the character is naked and most cosplayers wear skin-colored body suits, but to me a body suit is still sufficient coverage. The appearence of nudity isn't the same as actual nudity, after all.

As has been said before.  Since this cosplayer decided to push the issue, clearer rules will need to be made.  Soon, we will have a new board.  I do no think it is appropriate for this Board to do rules revisions at this time.  I don't want to push work onto the new Board, but I feel that it is the only appropriate course of action. 

We did not want to have to make these rules revisions, as they may technically ban cosplays we have had no problems with.  But, the issue has been forced.