Author Topic: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!  (Read 29959 times)

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2011, 03:44:20 pm »
Well, that'd make it easier for me to not hesitate.
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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2011, 06:55:35 pm »
Interesting Salon editorial here.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2011, 08:18:14 pm »
I agree with them. We're kind of huge hypocrites (although that isn't such a shock).
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2011, 09:38:03 pm »
A little late on the matter, but boy, did you guys watch the Daily Show and The Colbert Report on the 2nd? Holy cow. What a shock that was. John Stewart was waaaay happier than I thought he would be while Colbert actually did some truly legitimate reporting in his own way. The touch with the dusty balloons was a good one.

I was just surprised that Colbert was the more cerebral of the two. Stewart himself in that episode said he was way too close to this story to adequately report on it. I give him lots of credit for acknowledging that.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2011, 09:44:38 pm »
Wow. He must be very young or something. We've been wanting to kick someone's but since we tucked tail and ran out of Viet Nam. We've been itchin' for a fight, far too badly. WE finally got what we wanted. At least people my age, and probably just guys, who have also never been to any other country, unless they were in the service, and we seem to be quieter about this.

TO me "USA! USA!" has been pathetic since just after WE beat the Russians at Lake Placid back in 1980. I guess I got over it. But I knew it as jingoism, and have always been taught to avoid it, as it is a bad thing to have.

But that article reads as if written by the "Blame America" crowd. I don't like that either, it gets my back up. But then it is hard for me to say I'm sorry too. I don't feel as if this thinking will help America make better foreign policy going forward, but always keeps incriminating America over OUR past ef-ups.

I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation. Sorry Lychee, that;s awful glib, but I am not well-brained enough to fix it better today. It's been too long of 12 hours days here. Sumimasen.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2011, 09:55:06 pm »
Except we're still making those f-ups because we aren't holding people responsible for them.  :-\
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #106 on: May 04, 2011, 10:35:24 pm »
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Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.
Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

This is a thread I started, you got on this, I hadn't yet responded. And why should appeals go on forever? Just do a better job of conviction than say Texas does.
I don't know enough about the specific court mechanics of any particular state with the death penalty to be able to answer that in a precise way. However, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say it's because courts are always, always slow because of the sheer amount of cases they're expected to handle, and because death row cases are probably pretty low priority. It's not like those particular criminals are going anywhere.

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Did you also know that they can shoot you if you disobey a, and here's the catch, lawful order during time of war? Your commanding officer can do this, no need to go bother anyone higher up.
Yes. That's why I've stressed war atrocities as decisions made by military authorities, rather than individual soldiers, and deferred to the moral difficulty of choosing between military duty and personal ethics. Which doesn't explain why you'd defer to this, since your argument so far has been that almost certain death in pursuit of the "right thing" is an excellent thing to do.

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if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

Close, materiel is made in a factory. Bomb the factory. If you do it at night, most people are not at work. THe idea is to detroy the factory, causing civilian casualties only stiffens their resolve. This applies until one side decides to commit atrocities of war, such as the Bataan Death March, rape camps, the Blitz or Battle of Britain if you prefer. Or have good information the enemy may develop nuclear weapons very soon.
I don't think that "the bad guys did it first" is justification for abandoning the moral commitment not to kill civilians. I can't see the benefit in responding to war atrocities with escalated war atrocities, which is why I can't see the justification for abandoning the kind of low-casualty tactics you described above for the massacres the US military actually committed.

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I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate comment] Do you think a gang will take over Dunthorpe, Laurelhurst, Albina, Beverly Hills, Bel Air? Or even Ladd's Addition? NW Portland? It really doesn't take that much to keep them from thinking about moving in, it's much harder to get them out. And it's near impossible if you allow one to run rampant. It makes the place seem like a haven for those who seek shelter from the law.
I didn't get to read what you wrote, but I responded the way I did because I thought your original premise was treating the symptoms of poverty glibly. Protecting just your own home only displaces the problem. In this case, the problem is a fundamentally inhumane distribution of wealth, cemented by a specific culture of generational poverty. I find the "out of sight, out of mind" attitude about this issue cold and somewhat absurd. That is probably why you found my response glib. And I am totally gonna bring that point of view back around to the subject at hand! Eventually. I'm sure. Whenever we get to discussing the nature of terrorism/people who commit terrorist acts, which I'm sure is inevitable.

My understanding of why gangs don't move into well-off neighborhoods is two reasons: (a)police are more likely to actually do something in a "better" neighborhood and (b)the bulk of crime is perpetrated by people in poverty on other people in poverty. The gang already has to be a major social problem before it starts moving into better neighborhoods, at which point it's time to start addressing the underlying issues, 'cause I seriously doubt brute force is gonna move them.

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It's also good to do everything you can if you live in an apartment that the landlord is allowing to slip into slum, to use every tool at your disposal, including alerting the TV news.

But if you like meth, nevermind.
No, I don't want to live in a neighborhood dominated by drugs, but I'd still worry about where those people would go otherwise. Getting people evicted from your apartment complex doesn't change the fact that somewhere, someone else's home is being ruined by drugs. I don't see that as a solution.

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Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow?
Ever heard of the term "stool pigeon"? Tell the people who will be glad to clean your neighborhood for you. Taking up arms yourself should be a last resort.
I think that tactic assumes a lot about the particular social context of the people of Fallujah that doesn't necessarily apply. I don't know an awful lot about Iraqi culture, so I'd be reluctant to assume that that's something that would even seem like an option for them. Especially since the people you think they should've been tattling on were countrymen, possibly men from their own community, who spoke the same language and traded in the same ideologies that they did. I dunno about you, but I trust the familiar with guns a lot more than the unfamiliar with guns.

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I can understand, even if I do not like, the citizens of Fallujah not doing much of anything, after having a guy like Saddam in power for so long, and always living in fear that someday a knock on the door in the dead of night would come for you. Sure makes it easier to take a town hostage by using the same tactics.

Keeping your head down may keep you alive, but it also degrades you as a human. That's living like rats, not people.
Different nations and cultures have different ideas of what it means to be a person. I reject the idea that everyone should have to live by our standards of civic duty in order to be fully realized, self-respecting people. Living in a totalitarian regime, struggling with resource scarcity and violence, ideological freedom is rarely most people's first priority. It's some people's, and all the power to them. But it doesn't make their fellows, who work hard to keep their families fed, sheltered, educated and safe, any less like people.

I'm saying this as a first generation American by way of Soviet Ukraine.

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I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation.
I don't think he mentioned anything about being Jewish being part of his glee, but that might've been underlying. He seemed to ascribe most of it to be being a New Yorker. And hating terrorism.
Being Jewish myself, that never really factors into my fear of terrorism, since most terrorists want everyone who isn't them dead. It doesn't really matter if they want people of my ethnicity dead especially, since if they get their way most everyone will be dead anyway. That's why they're scary.
It really helps the not-fearing, too, that while Israel has seen more than its share of attacks, the bulk of terrorist action still takes place in Arab and/or Muslim nations. Or India, which is technically more of a Hindi nation.

Seriously though the big Jewish fear is not "What do we do when the evil people overseas people decide to annihilate us?" it's "What about when it happens here?" I admit that my point of view is pretty much exclusively that of a European Jew, but I feel comfortable ascribing it to just about every Jewish population except the super super super tiny ones in India and China.
aaaand that is not even sort of justifiably on topic, and I apologize. But I don't take it back, because I don't want to be misrepresented. :I

I also don't see how the article blamed America for anything, except absorbing a really unpleasant attitude that makes us look less like righteous crusaders and more like bloodthirsty hawks. Admittedly, I read it really fast.


Luv: My comment was meant to point out that putting up barriers in order to keep out the poor and the accompanying violence doesn't actually resolve the underlying problems, which you outlined in your post.

Lychee: I only watched Stewart's. I'll make sure to check out Colbert's now. Thanks for the tip, dude.


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« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 07:34:15 pm by Malaria »
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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2011, 12:49:12 am »
I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation. Sorry Lychee, that;s awful glib, but I am not well-brained enough to fix it better today. It's been too long of 12 hours days here. Sumimasen.

That has much less to do with it than his being a New Yorker.

For all that we pointedly learned how precious life is and how horrible it is to let any ideologue with an ax to grind decide it's okay to kill civilians to achieve your goals (NYC's antiwar protests drew millions)... I wouldn't have given that @#$@#% five minutes to live if the SEALs had captured him and dropped him off in Manhattan. It redefines reality when in a city of several million people, virtually everyone has lost someone or knows someone who did. This undoubtedly exposed raw emotions in him that he might have expressed differently, given more time.
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2011, 01:52:03 am »

Luv: My comment was meant to point out that putting up barriers in order to keep out the poor and the accompanying violence doesn't actually resolve the underlying problems, which you outlined in your post.


i just reread it *facepalm* wow.. reading these at 1am in the morning doesn't help lol heh -D-" but i guess the way you stated it made it sound like you were trying to say that you thought the poor to be a problem and hence moving them elsewhere (lawl) sorry >.<

Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2011, 05:22:52 pm »
^^ Just from rereading my reply above, even I can't be sure what I was trying to say. :-[ That's what I get for dashing off a response during a break at work.

Rephrased: For all that NYCers went one way after 9/11 (Life is too precious to let nutjobs treat it as inconsequential compared to their goals) and the TV-watching country went another (Revenge! On someone! We don't care who as long as they kinda look the same!) wrt the Iraq war, we didn't become Buddhas by any means. I wouldn't have given bin Laden five minutes to live if he'd shown up in Manhattan. It doesn't surprise me too much that Jon Stewart's, or any NYCer's, first response would be "&#@% yeah, about time!" on learning of his death, though since then he's been more tempered.

I loved his recent response (which the media completely misunderstood as "Wanna see!") wrt the infamous headshot photo. It was a dark, slightly bitter satire that I'd paraphrase as "You know what? It's a childishly stupid thing to clamor for, but maybe we should start seeing the results of our actions more often, instead of needing to be protected from seeing military coffins coming home or graphic photos of civilians killed by our bombs. The Middle Eastern world sees it all the d@#% time. So why would a graphic photo of bin Laden be that much worse?"

I don't think that "the bad guys did it first" is justification for abandoning the moral commitment not to kill civilians. I can't see the benefit in responding to war atrocities with escalated war atrocities, which is why I can't see the justification for abandoning the kind of low-casualty tactics you described above for the massacres the US military actually committed.

I don't think he mentioned anything about being Jewish being part of his glee, but that might've been underlying. He seemed to ascribe most of it to be being a New Yorker. And hating terrorism.
Being Jewish myself, that never really factors into my fear of terrorism, since most terrorists want everyone who isn't them dead. It doesn't really matter if they want people of my ethnicity dead especially, since if they get their way most everyone will be dead anyway. That's why they're scary.
It really helps the not-fearing, too, that while Israel has seen more than its share of attacks, the bulk of terrorist action still takes place in Arab and/or Muslim nations. Or India, which is technically more of a Hindi nation.

Seriously though the big Jewish fear is not "What do we do when the evil people overseas people decide to annihilate us?" it's "What about when it happens here?"

Your response was win-after-win in my book, but especially these two. Sorry I didn't notice that you'd already addressed the "It's because he's a New Yorker, not because he's a Jew" aspect much more eloquently until afterward.

I couldn't agree more about "They did it first" being a horrible rationale, and I think you raise an interesting point about WWII. Most Americans are blissfully unaware of the atrocities we perpetuated, like Dresden and other cities that we burned as part of the concept of "total war" - i.e. even civilians are valid targets, because they help make war materiel or at least contribute to the economy. All pretty rationalizations aside... that came directly from "They hurt us in a way we don't like, so let's do much worse" on both sides.

Unpleasant historical fact: We (primarily Britain) started bombing cities in a limited fashion as part of "total war". We tried to pinpoint factories, but our tech was far behind and we were so atrociously inaccurate that the Germans thought it was deliberate. They were furious and ordered a reprisal on Coventry which pinpointed the industrial sections of a town pretty much dedicated to making weapons, but killed over a thousand civilians in the process when it set off limited firestorms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz#Before_the_bombing) So we (Britain and the US) started fire-bombing just about every city we could get to that had any factories, perfecting the art of creating massive firestorms that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians before it was over. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz#14_November_1940) Yes, that was "us". Not "them".

Not that it's going to stop someone from saying "You're defending Hitler! He was the only one ever who did anything bad in WWII!", in 3... 2... 1... but I'm absolutely not saying we were the "bad guys" in WWII. Just that almost everyone committed atrocities before it was over. The Geneva Conventions were something of a tacit admission of that, not a declaration of "Stop doing bad things!" to the losers.

When you start justifying stuff with "They did it first", you end up with tens of millions of people dead and everyone's hands soaked in blood.
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Offline Kimiski

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2011, 06:17:05 pm »
I dunno, I'm pretty happy he's dead.

EDIT: For clarification: I'm happy he's dead because it means more deaths will be averted. He wasn't the most 'evil' person ever, and there are people who 'deserve' to die more.

Exactly.

And I'll be more happy when we get OUT of Iraq ALREADY!!! D<


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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2011, 09:35:40 pm »
^ i second that statement! GET THEM ALL OUT NOW! D:<

Offline NARUNIK

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2011, 10:04:53 pm »
The will he left was interesting...

He doesn't want any else of his family to join Alquaida and he doesn't want one of his wifes to get remarried.


Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2011, 10:13:38 pm »
^that is interesting >3> *sits and eat popcorn* sorry i can only sit and watch from the sidelines... not so great with arguing about this topic. @.@

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2011, 10:42:09 pm »
You and me, luv. This went to a level that I am unprepared to go to.
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2011, 12:38:01 am »
yeaup ._. hopefully we get some good topic starters >3> any minute now <3<

Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2011, 08:49:17 am »
Narunik: That sounds interesting. D'you have a more in-depth link?


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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2011, 04:56:10 pm »
^^ Just from rereading my reply above, even I can't be sure what I was trying to say. :-[ That's what I get for dashing off a response during a break at work.

Been there, still do that.

When you start justifying stuff with "They did it first", you end up with tens of millions of people dead and everyone's hands soaked in blood.

Exactly.  That's why it's best to try forgiveness, except for when it comes to preventing some psychopath from killing more innocent people.  This is where I can understand why people are pissed at Bush, because lots of innocent lives were lost trying to get bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.  I think that if different strategies had been used, there would have been a lot less casualties, and a lot less time would have taken place.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2011, 11:36:50 pm »
I'll work my way backwards.

Total War was a concept invented by the French shortly after the revolution, when Austria, arguably the most powerful nation in Europe declared war against France. France really didn't have much of anything let alone any sort of army left. Cut to end of story, France kicked Austria's butt. How? EVERYONE fought. Men, women, children. Even it all they had was sticks. OR stale old french bread. Maybe some bomb de terres.

@ Malaria, look up Cabrini Green. See what the "War on Poverty" did for the poor. THen look up the science experiment where they put too many rats into too small a living space. Same results.

Also, read Samuel I and II.

Be grateful we and many other nations have signed on to the Geneva Conventions. Otherwise it wars would still be like WWI, except with nukes, not mustard gas. Fun fact, mustard gas and dead bodies are great fertilizer.

We should all be enlightened beings and not need war at all anymore. But...I am only guessing and rationalizing, you would have to ask FDR, and Winston Churchill as well as Hitler why they chose to go after civilians. I feel confident Eisenhower would not have given the go ahead for firestorming Dresden. I do know it was Truman who gave the green light for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let's continue to hope that it is our elected presidents who choose to use such tactics and not our generals and admirals.

I am a former cold warrior. As in I was enlisted during the cold war. Specifically during the Iran Iraq war, while Ronald Reagan was president.

Maybe re-read Animal Farm too.

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 11:40:28 pm by jaybug »
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Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2011, 05:09:40 pm »
Hm, I think that last comment may have been meant for someone else?  ^^

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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2011, 10:00:25 am »
@ Malaria, look up Cabrini Green. See what the "War on Poverty" did for the poor. THen look up the science experiment where they put too many rats into too small a living space. Same results.
Obviously not Malaria, but my economics teacher? Loves LBJ, the Great Society, and the War on Poverty. Why? He was impoverished growing up, and the government basically paid for his undergrad education. Like, all of it.

And this is a guy who is a Paul Heyne fanboy, btw. So about the War and Poverty and what it did for the poor, I'd say it did some nice things in the '70s. I'd love it if the government paid for my 37k tuition. Instead, they're only paying for some of it.
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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #121 on: May 08, 2011, 12:02:07 pm »
I'm visiting relatives who are Deeeeep Southern, some of whom are still Rush Limbaugh fans and others of whom will in that "it's-more-polite-if-you-say-it-quietly" Southern way call Obama racial epithets (if everyone present is white and hasn't openly called them on it in the last day or two).

Even they're happy with Obama's decision not to release the headshot photos, and were disturbed by the birthday-party mentality of celebrating it. From one of them yesterday: "Killing someone may be for the best if it means he won't kill anyone else, but it's not something to be proud of... otherwise, what do we stand for?"
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2011, 08:00:16 pm »
^ Hmm. I like that a lot.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2011, 12:06:16 am »
IS it because Osama is dead, gas went down 2 cents?
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Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #124 on: May 10, 2011, 12:26:32 am »
Well that's all he's worth these days. I know some data has been released concerning his last vide- you know what, no. **** that guy. He doesn't deserve any more press. >.>'
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #125 on: May 10, 2011, 01:21:48 am »
^ I want my 2 cents back, please...? ;D

Maybe re-read Animal Farm too.

Good book...
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead - SEAL Team - er WHAT ?!?!?
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2011, 03:15:25 pm »
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20061024-71.html



Text:

"Sympathy, therefore, must be ladled toward the German news station N24, which was extremely keen to tell the world about last week's killing of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team Six.

Unfortunately, in its haste to offer a SEAL logo, someone at the station actually mustered the logo of the "Star Trek" Maquis Special Operations Seals Team VI--a bunch of nasty little 24th century terrorists."


« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:16:06 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead - SEAL Team - er WHAT ?!?!?
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2011, 03:22:07 pm »
He's dead Jim. -_-'
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2011, 03:47:43 pm »
Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2011, 01:21:41 pm »
Okay: Now we KNOW Osama is dead:

... He registered to vote in Chicago ....

( da-dum-tshhh! )