Author Topic: Pokesav/legal hacking. Whats your opinion? (Read 47970 times)

xcthulhux · « **on:** August 28, 2009, 03:27:32 pm »

i don't respect hacking, but there are such things as good hacking as well as bad.
now before you shun me for saying this, hear me out.

with pokemon, a lot of people hack pokemon to be more powerful. this is definitely bad.
on the other hand, some people only use external hardware to save time.
the quick egg/fast hatch code for action replay, and pokesav-ing are 2 prime examples.

now, if these are done well, they are virtually untraceable, and in fact, perfectly legitimate pokemon.
they are completely legal, and everything that happened to them, can and often does happen to them IN GAME.

Opinions?

Randomman29 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:47:21 pm »

I just have two copies one for trading and one for battling.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:53:43 pm »

Quote from: Randomman29 on August 28, 2009, 03:47:21 pm

I just have two copies one for trading and one for battling.

well.
that was irrelevant.

Agent47 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:56:25 pm »

I, personally, do not condone the use of AR/pokesav under any editing circumstance. I, however, do condone the use of said tools only to check the legitimacy of existing pokemon, or to check stats(IVs, EVs, ect..) as well as the SID of the OT.

Basically.. yes for information purposes, very no for any editing/alteration purposes.

Randomman29 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2009, 04:06:19 pm »

Quote from: xcthulhux on August 28, 2009, 03:53:43 pm

Quote from: Randomman29 on August 28, 2009, 03:47:21 pm
I just have two copies one for trading and one for battling.
well.
that was irrelevant.

Not really when you can never be sure how has hacked, who hasn't or if they have they usually lie about it. So then if you do well in say Pokémon Video Game Championships what happens when they check your game and find you've been using a hacked pokemon but didn't know it was hacked. I do try to be nice but most of the time I don't trust others to play pokemon with honor.

Agent47 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2009, 04:19:38 pm »

Quote from: Randomman29 on August 28, 2009, 04:06:19 pm

So then if you do well in say Pokémon Video Game Championships what happens when they check your game and find you've been using a hacked pokemon but didn't know it was hacked.

That's why if I went to an event like such, I'd only ever used pokemon I bred myself.

But I'm the same way, I own 1 of each DS game, my Platinum game is my main, "isolated" game, and my Pearl game is my used, abused, and trading game.. and once I'm 90% or more sure that a pokemon I traded for is legit, then I'll trade it to my Platinum game.

DancingTofu · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2009, 04:55:14 pm »

You know all of the pokemon you get by going to Toy's R Us for their special events?

That's hacking. They input a device to trigger a hidden code that generates an illegitimate pokemon for you. Is that wrong? How is that different from making a Pokemon hatch faster. It's no more "cheating" than it is to use the auto-clear cheat to clear the retarded goldenfish missions in Monster Hunter so that you can unlock Lao Shan Lung without wasting time. I play video games to test my skill and push myself, not to ride around in circles on a bicycle for half an hour waiting for an egg to hatch.

I'm not sure what the other hack being discussed is, but TBH I doubt it's worth the drama. Reminds me of all the people who go around freaking out about how CFW voids PSP warranty...Sony doesn't even honour their warranty. If something goes wrong with a brand new PSP, their customer disservice is trained to worm out of it and charge you half the face value of the system to fix it. Voiding the warranty is not only an arbitrary concern, but CFW is removable and untrackable.

Agent47 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2009, 05:11:39 pm »

Quote from: DancingTofu on August 28, 2009, 04:55:14 pm

You know all of the pokemon you get by going to Toy's R Us for their special events?

That's hacking. They input a device to trigger a hidden code that generates an illegitimate pokemon for you.

Except it's not hacking. It's wirelessly connecting to a Nintendo-sponsored server, that simply sents a code to your game to generate a new pokemon(or item), as the game was designed to do. A good chunk of them aren't even illegitimate. In addition to this, it isn't using a third party device, which can alter any coding within the game.

When it comes down to it, hacking is descripted as devising or modifying computing software or hardware, and any Nintendo event does neither, it simply utilizes a function already programmed into the game.

There's also the fact that due to DS games being on a cartridge and not a disc, the use of any third party hacking or modifying device can potentially ruin your game permanently.

Pajamurai · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2009, 05:12:17 pm »

Quote from: DancingTofu on August 28, 2009, 04:55:14 pm

You know all of the pokemon you get by going to Toy's R Us for their special events?

That's hacking. They input a device to trigger a hidden code that generates an illegitimate pokemon for you. Is that wrong? How is that different from making a Pokemon hatch faster. It's no more "cheating" than it is to use the auto-clear cheat to clear the retarded goldenfish missions in Monster Hunter so that you can unlock Lao Shan Lung without wasting time. I play video games to test my skill and push myself, not to ride around in circles on a bicycle for half an hour waiting for an egg to hatch.

I'm not sure what the other hack being discussed is, but TBH I doubt it's worth the drama. Reminds me of all the people who go around freaking out about how CFW voids PSP warranty...Sony doesn't even honour their warranty. If something goes wrong with a brand new PSP, their customer disservice is trained to worm out of it and charge you half the face value of the system to fix it. Voiding the warranty is not only an arbitrary concern, but CFW is removable and untrackable.

Although technically that's not hacking as it's actually just unlocking content that already existed, I don't mind hacking as long as it's done within the legal perameters. Though it's good that since we'll be battling on PBR at the con, any pokemon who are illegite autimatically get turned into bad eggs if they're outside battle-legal parameters.

Randomman29 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2009, 05:20:12 pm »

Quote from: DancingTofu on August 28, 2009, 04:55:14 pm

You know all of the pokemon you get by going to Toy's R Us for their special events?

That's hacking. They input a device to trigger a hidden code that generates an illegitimate pokemon for you. Is that wrong? How is that different from making a Pokemon hatch faster. It's no more "cheating" than it is to use the auto-clear cheat to clear the retarded goldenfish missions in Monster Hunter so that you can unlock Lao Shan Lung without wasting time. I play video games to test my skill and push myself, not to ride around in circles on a bicycle for half an hour waiting for an egg to hatch.

I'm not sure what the other hack being discussed is, but TBH I doubt it's worth the drama. Reminds me of all the people who go around freaking out about how CFW voids PSP warranty...Sony doesn't even honour their warranty. If something goes wrong with a brand new PSP, their customer disservice is trained to worm out of it and charge you half the face value of the system to fix it. Voiding the warranty is not only an arbitrary concern, but CFW is removable and untrackable.

At the risk of being banned you're lucky you didn't post that at a pokemon forum.

And I like pokemon because most other games make my eyes tired so I can't play them for that long or I would be tripping over the cat in my blind attempt at walking.

DancingTofu · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2009, 05:32:16 pm »

It's not a cartridge, it's a flash storage device. You can't ruin it permanently; you can just make it difficult to fix. Extremely so, but nothing's irreversible with flash.

Explain to me how getting the strongest Psychic pokemon in the game by attending an out-of-game event is in any way a legitimate gameplay tactic. It's not; it's something they set up to generate hype for the game by sacrificing legitimacy. Just because it's condoned and sponsored by Nintendo doesn't make it legitimate gameplay.

Agent47, So you're saying that they don't create any hardware devices or software code to override the game's normal gameplay when they add event pokemon? How do you justify that claim? They released the game without access to event pokemon. By accessing a hacking device, they initiate a sequence not possible in gameplay as intended, which gives you a free uber. (I don't know if they still make the event pokemon ubers; I know that the earlier games did) It's on par with using cheat codes that are built into a game. They're designed to be used when playing casually, to make things fun. They aren't serious and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Randomman, I'm "lucky" I didn't post that on a Pokemon forum? That doesn't even make sense. First of all, why would I even be on a Pokemon forum when I haven't played anything since Sapphire, and that was brief. That statement was like going on 4chan and saying "at risk of being banned you're lucky you didn't post that on an anime con forum". It's just not a rational comparison. And on top of that, I never said I condoned or condemned anything in that post. I just compared a few rotten apples.

EDIT: Just for clarification, I'm being more of a devil's advocate here than anything else. I'm not trying to shut down the discussion or kill the argument; I'm just looking to bounce notions around and share some insight.

ha~ma · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:14:09 pm »

Pokemon is an brainless grindfest without a hex editor

Slash5150 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:24:33 pm »

Quote from: xcthulhux on August 28, 2009, 03:27:32 pm

i don't respect hacking, but there are such things as good hacking as well as bad.
now before you shun me for saying this, hear me out.

with pokemon, a lot of people hack pokemon to be more powerful. this is definitely bad.
on the other hand, some people only use external hardware to save time.
the quick egg/fast hatch code for action replay, and pokesav-ing are 2 prime examples.

now, if these are done well, they are virtually untraceable, and in fact, perfectly legitimate pokemon.
they are completely legal, and everything that happened to them, can and often does happen to them IN GAME.

Opinions?

Hacking is hacking. IMO if you're going to be a total d**k and are too lazy to physically do the stuff in game, whether its a brainless grindfest or what have you, basically I call that no skill. Sure it happens in game, but at least you can say you went out and did it. Not "I used an AR because i'm a lazy bum."

Pajamurai · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:27:31 pm »

So riding your bike back and forth for hours is skill? It's forming an idea of a team and then battling with them, that's where the skill comes in. What skill comes in fighting computers? None.

Slash5150 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:28:55 pm »

Quote from: Pajamurai on August 28, 2009, 07:27:31 pm

So riding your bike back and forth for hours is skill? It's forming an idea of a team and then battling with them, that's where the skill comes in. What skill comes in fighting computers? None.

Its better than wussing out and having to use an AR.

Pajamurai · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:44:04 pm »

I just don't understand how deciding you'd rather get straight to battling and have fun, instead of spending hours of monotonous battling is considered "Wussing out"

DancingTofu · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:09:46 pm »

Quote from: Pajamurai on August 28, 2009, 07:27:31 pm

So riding your bike back and forth for hours is skill?

If this were the case, I'd be a pokemon master IRL. ;P

oslapedo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:10:26 pm »

Man of the Public · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:21:22 pm »

If it's within the legal bounds of the game, I couldn't care less.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:53:36 pm »

Quote from: Slash5150 on August 28, 2009, 07:28:55 pm

Quote from: Pajamurai on August 28, 2009, 07:27:31 pm
So riding your bike back and forth for hours is skill? It's forming an idea of a team and then battling with them, that's where the skill comes in. What skill comes in fighting computers? None.

Its better than wussing out and having to use an AR.

this is where im going to jump in and say that actually, IMO, anybody who plays pokemon competitively will find pokesavving and fast hatch/quick egg useful in case they want to change movesets/ev's/iv's.

i personally do not think that IV changing is very cool, but sometimes i have to admit that it would be extremely useful instead of having to breed pokemon repetitively until i get it.

i also wanted to mention that i went to the regional championships with some friends, and my friend dante was using sav'd pokemon, and when he got to the finals, they hack checked his pokemon and didn't find anything wrong with them so GG

anyway, don't let this cease discussion as this is still an interesting topic.

Pajamurai · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:58:38 pm »

cthulu, when you went to the regional champions, did you see these people that dress up like team rocket? They're team ended up winning, one year later I met them and beat them lol. Did you see them?

xcthulhux · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2009, 09:02:46 pm »

Quote from: Pajamurai on August 28, 2009, 08:58:38 pm

cthulu, when you went to the regional champions, did you see these people that dress up like team rocket? They're team ended up winning, one year later I met them and wiped the floor with them lol. Did you see them?

i may have, as irrelevant as that is.
really, they won?
wow...

Pajamurai · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2009, 09:04:51 pm »

apparently, atleast that's what they told me. Though judging my their teams they didn't feel very accustomed to battling I gotta say. Oh well.

Ac-town · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2009, 03:28:56 am »

To me there are 2 different areas in this.
Hacking: Having pokemon with moves they cannot learn and such without the use of a cheating device.
Legit/Legal: Pokemon obtained in the game and pokemon within the games normal use.

You can make pokesav pokemon look 100% legit. It's easy. I have spent hours looking into how the game saves information that goes along with a pokemon. Just remain in the correct IV levels, don't have more then 510 EV's. There are a few other advance tricks that the game uses to determine and check where the pokemon came from, but this also can be fooled to make any "judge" think that it is real. If you want to get into a more in depth discussion about this feel free to bug me in the forums and we can meetup in the gaming room sometime during the con.

What does bug me if the pokemon has perfect 31 IV's in all stats, or is shiny and has almost perfect stats or 31's across the board. The odds of breeding or finding one of them is SO LOW that I don't expect to see any at all.

Also, to me using a AR is cheating, not hacking. Most people just enter the code into their AR and it "works". They have no idea what is going on, or even how it works.

BlackjackGabbiani · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2009, 04:31:20 am »

What the hell kind of egg takes half an hour to hatch? Even the toughest ones like Munchlax take like five minutes if you have something with Flame Body or Magma Armor.

Anyway, for me, I say if it can be done with the game and game functions, then it's legit. So cloning and all that is what I consider legit, as that's taking advantage of a flaw in the programming. Using an outside device is cheating.

Obviously this doesn't apply to things like official downloads, as they have the Nintendo/GameFreak/Pokemon International(or wherever) seal of approval.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:05:08 am »

Quote from: BlackjackGabbiani on August 31, 2009, 04:31:20 am

What the hell kind of egg takes half an hour to hatch? Even the toughest ones like Munchlax take like five minutes if you have something with Flame Body or Magma Armor.

Anyway, for me, I say if it can be done with the game and game functions, then it's legit. So cloning and all that is what I consider legit, as that's taking advantage of a flaw in the programming. Using an outside device is cheating.

Obviously this doesn't apply to things like official downloads, as they have the Nintendo/GameFreak/Pokemon International(or wherever) seal of approval.

alright, well you say "if it can be done with the game and game functions, then it's legit."
and then you say "Using an outside device is cheating."

So what about using an outside device to do things that can be done with the game and game functions?
Because i think that is what we are talking about here.

BlackjackGabbiani · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2009, 08:37:00 pm »

I think that's still cheating.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #27 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:40:46 am »

Quote from: BlackjackGabbiani on August 31, 2009, 08:37:00 pm

I think that's still cheating.

that is kind of like saying that giving somebody a hug is cheating on your significant other...

HardstyleZombie · « **Reply #28 on:** September 01, 2009, 05:02:11 am »

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 01, 2009, 12:40:46 am

Quote from: BlackjackGabbiani on August 31, 2009, 08:37:00 pm
I think that's still cheating.
that is kind of like saying that giving somebody a hug is cheating on your significant other...

wow reply ftw cthulhu

Fevenis · « **Reply #29 on:** September 01, 2009, 01:06:25 pm »

Lets face it, Nintendo did not intend for people to use an external device to instant hatch eggs, get any item you want without effort, or to manipulate stats like IV and EV points. You are supposed to take the time to develop and train you pokemon.

If I used a jet airplane in a bicycle race, I think people might call me out on that.

I know it'd be impossible to tell you guys not to use things like Action Replay or Pokesav, but remember even "legal" hacking is looking down upon. Who decided hacking of any sort was legal anyway?

Man of the Public · « **Reply #30 on:** September 01, 2009, 01:20:19 pm »

It's legal in the sense that it's within the games set parameters. We're not giving magikarps the ability to fly just speeding up an otherwise lengthy and time consuming process.
I'm busy with school, finding a job, running an anime club, and various other activities to fully EV train all my pokemon, breed for IVs and good natures but I do like battling competitively.
So such I be denied the opportunity of a winning team just because I like other things, I think not.

But I understand that it's not for everyone, and some of you dont care for it, but if it doesn't directly affect your enjoyment of the game, then there's no reason for this to be such a pressing matter for you.

That is end game my friends.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #31 on:** September 01, 2009, 02:12:56 pm »

yes, but think about it this way.
since when is it a race anyway?
its not like they are enhancing there pokemon to any greater heights, they are just speeding up the process.
its more like a race where you have to build the bike first, and one person is using powertools vs. using a hammer and nails. (which would make a horrible bike)

DancingTofu · « **Reply #32 on:** September 01, 2009, 04:23:26 pm »

Quote from: Fevenis on September 01, 2009, 01:06:25 pm

If I used a jet airplane in a bicycle race, I think people might call me out on that.

lol

Totally not a legit comparison.

Quickly hatching an egg doesn't make you win. It makes you efficient. My standard of transportation is a bicycle. My quick-hatching cheat is to carpool. It lets me go further, faster. Am I going to bike to visit my Uncle in D.C.? Hell no! I'll take a plane. I don't have time and energy to waste biking across the country. Some people would make a road trip of it. They have more time to delegate for transportation than I do. I can respect that. However, I'm not going to hold myself to that standard. Humanity will always seek to be more efficient. It doesn't make sense to incriminate efficiency when it has no impact on battle.

Randomman29 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 01, 2009, 04:37:16 pm »

I bend the rules but don't break them. I like the "memento" battles in secret bases after doing my EV training for fast exp. Also for those that don't have time for leveling up I did see a friend had the D-pad held down with a damage counter and rubber band so the trainer would continuously go into a move square going the opposite direction, it was only two steps but they were still counted.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #34 on:** September 01, 2009, 05:48:16 pm »

Quote from: Randomman29 on September 01, 2009, 04:37:16 pm

I did see a friend had the D-pad held down with a damage counter and rubber band so the trainer would continuously go into a move square going the opposite direction, it was only two steps but they were still counted.

now isn't this the same thing as the quick egg in essence?
i mean, is there honestly anything wrong with efficiency?
which honestly sounds more efficient?
going to sleep while you wait for your egg to hatch w/ a rubber band around your ds/gba, or hatching the egg in 2 steps?
GG

Randomman29 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 01, 2009, 06:10:38 pm »

Maybe but your not using an out side program to trigger an event.

Man of the Public · « **Reply #36 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:10:04 pm »

Quote from: Randomman29 on September 01, 2009, 06:10:38 pm

Maybe but your not using an out side program to trigger an event.

But in reality what difference does it make. It doesnt affect your playing of the game. Just quickens others.

legoman60 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 02, 2009, 05:25:57 am »

A mechanical external device used to cheat is no different from a digital external device used to cheat in the same way.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #38 on:** September 02, 2009, 10:39:41 am »

in a way, taping down your button on a hill is the same thing

Ac-town · « **Reply #39 on:** September 02, 2009, 11:23:52 am »

The end result is the same. That is really the only thing they have in common.

Man of the Public · « **Reply #40 on:** September 02, 2009, 11:43:50 am »

If the end result is the same what matter does it make. It doesnt affect your playing of the game nor does it affect how the battles play out.

ha~ma · « **Reply #41 on:** September 02, 2009, 12:26:19 pm »

NEWS FLASH, WORLD'S BEST PORTABLE GAMING CHEAT DEVICE IS RUBBER BAND.

But seriously, let's make a comparison to the real world. Some work places pay tons of money for macros / automation/ templates for wordprocessing / spreadsheet programs. Does this give them an advantage over workplaces that don't implement this/ can't afford to? Yes.
In pokemon, this advantage is inexpensive and sometimes free. Should you take it?
Undoubtedly.
If you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous to you.

JeffT · « **Reply #42 on:** September 02, 2009, 03:43:47 pm »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 02, 2009, 12:26:19 pm

But seriously, let's make a comparison to the real world. Some work places pay tons of money for macros / automation/ templates for wordprocessing / spreadsheet programs. Does this give them an advantage over workplaces that don't implement this/ can't afford to? Yes.
In pokemon, this advantage is inexpensive and sometimes free. Should you take it?
Undoubtedly.
If you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous to you.

This is an inapplicable comparison.

The relevant comparison is:

A company saves money by pirating the software they use instead of buying licenses. This gives them a monetary advantage over companies that don't do this. Should they do it?

A game is established with certain rules, some perhaps arbitrary, and violating those is cheating.

You're saying that if you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous, including cheating.

The question is, what exactly is cheating? What exactly are the rules? That's the disagreement in this thread.

Fevenis · « **Reply #43 on:** September 02, 2009, 07:33:34 pm »

You guys missed my point completely, though I will agree, the example I made was not the best example.

So lets break down commonly used hacks:

•   Fast egg hack.
   o   Does not change the parameters of the game.
   o   All this does is shave time off riding a bicycle for a few hours.
   o   Legit

•   Shiny hack.
   o   Does not change the parameters of the game.
   o   The changes of finding one playing the game without hacking is 0.0122%.
   o   Having a legit Shiny Pokemon without hacking is like winning the lottery. You won, and now have bragging rights.
   o   Though a legit hack, it takes away from the prestige of finding one without hacking.

•   IV point hack
   o   Does change the parameters of the game.
   o   IV points are determined when you breed a Pokemon based off a number generated between 0-31. This number is random, but is influenced by the IV points of the two parent Pokemon that made the egg. If you have two parent Pokemon with good IV points, the changes of breeding a Pokemon with great IV points is much higher.
   o   The changes of breeding a Pokemon with perfect IV points in all six stats is nearly impossible. When I say nearly impossible, the changes are 1 in 1,073,741,824.
   o   Even though it is possible to achieve perfect IV points within the parameters of the game, I highly doubt anyone has a Pokemon with perfect IV points, let alone their whole team of six.
   o   Not legit in the slightest.

•   EV point hack
   o   Does not change the parameters of the game.
   o   EV points are manipulated based on the Pokemon you fight and are 100% determined by the actions you make.
   o   Legit.

You have to consider, once hacking for something "legit", what is to stop someone from taking the next step and using a illegal hack (Ex: IV point hacking)? Even though you guys consider some of these hacks legit, the reality of things are that you are still cheating by being becoming more efficient.

DancingTofu · « **Reply #44 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm »

Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

HardstyleZombie · « **Reply #45 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:36:43 pm »

well i will not count it as cheating do to the fact its speeding up the game its not like you are amping up stats like attack should be 120 but its 986 that is cheating

(dont want to get off topic but this is epic(admin,mod,staff,) posting)

Fevenis · « **Reply #46 on:** September 03, 2009, 04:51:06 pm »

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm

Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

What point are you trying to argue? That illegal hacking is ok because we can't track it? That's ridiculous.

To my knowledge, our staff does not have the tools or software to check for hacking (unless you know otherwise). That being the case, we shouldn't even have a official Pokemon tournament at Kumoricon since all the completive players hack and we have no way to check against legit/illegal hacks.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #47 on:** September 03, 2009, 08:23:35 pm »

Quote from: Fevenis on September 03, 2009, 04:51:06 pm

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm
Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

What point are you trying to argue? That illegal hacking is ok because we can't track it? That's ridiculous.

To my knowledge, our staff does not have the tools or software to check for hacking (unless you know otherwise). That being the case, we shouldn't even have a official Pokemon tournament at Kumoricon since all the completive players hack and we have no way to check against legit/illegal hacks.

im going to mention that if i have an internet connection, i can hack check.
i took a class on it ^.^
anyway, i think that if the ev's are 510 or under, and the movesets are legit, than its not a problem

also, i think that they only need a hack check if they come up as a bad egg on battle revolution, and if they are not hacked, than that match should be played on ds, as its unfair for them to not be able to enter the tournament with legit pokemon.

Fevenis · « **Reply #48 on:** September 03, 2009, 10:08:25 pm »

All matchs are going to be played on the Wii, not DS to DS directly. If you're unable to play on the Wii due to it rejecting a hacked up Pokemon, whos fault is that but your own?

Ac-town · « **Reply #49 on:** September 03, 2009, 11:59:16 pm »

I can check pokemon if need be. It would be a lot of fun.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #50 on:** September 04, 2009, 12:16:10 am »

Quote from: Fevenis on September 03, 2009, 10:08:25 pm

All matchs are going to be played on the Wii, not DS to DS directly. If you're unable to play on the Wii due to it rejecting a hacked up Pokemon, whos fault is that but your own?

Well, you did say yourself that they are legit, so why would you ruin there day by not letting them be a part of the tourney.
you yourself said that you wanted it to be on the wii so that EVERYONE could play, including little kids with level 33 woopers.
so if little kids with level 33 woopers can play, why can't kids who saved time by using pokesav

Ac-town · « **Reply #51 on:** September 04, 2009, 01:29:37 am »

Also, Since it is on PBR the obviously hacked pokemon will be bad egged. So less to worry about.

DancingTofu · « **Reply #52 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:59:02 am »

Quote from: Fevenis on September 03, 2009, 04:51:06 pm

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm
Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

What point are you trying to argue? That illegal hacking is ok because we can't track it? That's ridiculous.

This post just makes me think you didn't read my post at all. I wrote that post in essay format, with my thesis statement as my first sentence. How did you neglect to catch that? My argument was that if IV hacking is standard, those who don't hack their IV's are at a distinct and unfair advantage.

Fevenis · « **Reply #53 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:11:32 am »

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 04, 2009, 05:59:02 am

Quote from: Fevenis on September 03, 2009, 04:51:06 pm
Quote from: DancingTofu on September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm
Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

What point are you trying to argue? That illegal hacking is ok because we can't track it? That's ridiculous.
This post just makes me think you didn't read my post at all. I wrote that post in essay format, with my thesis statement as my first sentence. How did you neglect to catch that? My argument was that if IV hacking is standard, those who don't hack their IV's are at a distinct and unfair advantage.

I thought it was implied that anyone who doesn't hack is at a huge disadvantage vs. opponents that do? I was mainly replying to your second paragraph.

I think we should stop arguing this though as I feel some posts are coming off as attacks and are being taken personally.

Ac-town · « **Reply #54 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:27:39 am »

Well, the posts have remained (somewhat) civil for four pages. I thought this thread would have spiraled downward a long time ago lol.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #55 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:49:51 am »

Quote from: Ac-town on September 04, 2009, 09:27:39 am

Well, the posts have remained (somewhat) civil for four pages. I thought this thread would have spiraled downward a long time ago lol.

this.

i think that most people who use pokesav/quick egg, are careful, so lets just hope that nobody has to go through a world of embarrassment.

Pajamurai · « **Reply #56 on:** September 04, 2009, 01:46:28 pm »

indeed, hopefully they'll have PBR set up tomorrow so that we can all test it out to make sure our pokemon works.

ha~ma · « **Reply #57 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:43:08 pm »

Quote from: JeffT on September 02, 2009, 03:43:47 pm

Quote from: ha~ma on September 02, 2009, 12:26:19 pm
But seriously, let's make a comparison to the real world. Some work places pay tons of money for macros / automation/ templates for wordprocessing / spreadsheet programs. Does this give them an advantage over workplaces that don't implement this/ can't afford to? Yes.
In pokemon, this advantage is inexpensive and sometimes free. Should you take it?
Undoubtedly.
If you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous to you.

This is an inapplicable comparison.

The relevant comparison is:

A company saves money by pirating the software they use instead of buying licenses. This gives them a monetary advantage over companies that don't do this. Should they do it?

A game is established with certain rules, some perhaps arbitrary, and violating those is cheating.

You're saying that if you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous, including cheating.

The question is, what exactly is cheating? What exactly are the rules? That's the disagreement in this thread.

How is my comparison inapplicable? Your comparison doesn't work because pirating is violating a law. In pokemon as long as your EV's are valid you are not violating the competitive community's rules. You are simply getting these values faster than people who are not doing this. Your argument is assuming that hexers are breaking rules set within the community (note I'm not talking about wifi scrubs, I'm talking about top SBers and NBeres, WIFI community overall is not competitive). I never said that CHEATING within the competitive community's definition of CHEATING is okay. Perhaps i should have made this clear, because this is why your comparison is invalid. I do not cheat in any game that I play, I play within the rules to the greatest stretch in my advantage. The thrill of winning means nothing unless earned in a near zero-sum environment.

The competitive community has set the standard for what is cheating, this topic is completely superfluous. My argument is based on a tried and true competitive format that I will continue to back. No this is not ad populum on my part, I have come to the same conclusions as the competitive community has on my own so I see these rules as appropriate for the game.

Quote from: Fevenis on September 04, 2009, 09:11:32 am

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 04, 2009, 05:59:02 am
Quote from: Fevenis on September 03, 2009, 04:51:06 pm
Quote from: DancingTofu on September 03, 2009, 03:00:49 pm
Another point to consider would be: when does the standard necessitate cheating? There are some competitive activities where participants use certain cheats universally. Look at baseball and the use of steroids. Players who don't use steroids are at a huge disadvantage. Players who do are at risk for, well, I can't say I know what they're at risk for, but most of them don't care. They aren't going to compromise their ability to win. In order to make it fair, they have to cheat too.

How many people are going to show up to a tournament with perfect or near-perfect IV's? Is it really trackable if people use cheats to change the IV's? And the fact that it's possible (how many copies of Pokemon D/P/Pl have been sold? How many pokemon does the average consumer have? It's like winning the lottery, but not inconceivable to at least have a pokemon with ridiculously good IV's) means that if it's not trackable, how can you be certain someone will ridic IV's is cheating, and thus how can you screen it?

Now, if it's trackable, then no worries. Those who cheat can go fail in a corner, and those who don't can be totally chill.

What point are you trying to argue? That illegal hacking is ok because we can't track it? That's ridiculous.
This post just makes me think you didn't read my post at all. I wrote that post in essay format, with my thesis statement as my first sentence. How did you neglect to catch that? My argument was that if IV hacking is standard, those who don't hack their IV's are at a distinct and unfair advantage.

I thought it was implied that anyone who doesn't hack is at a huge disadvantage vs. opponents that do? I was mainly replying to your second paragraph.

I think we should stop arguing this though as I feel some posts are coming off as attacks and are being taken personally.

Just because you lost an argument does mean the discussion shouldn't end. Even though this is a VERY pointless discussion to begin with.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #58 on:** September 04, 2009, 08:11:52 pm »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 04, 2009, 04:43:08 pm

this is a VERY pointless discussion to begin with.

communication on any level is never pointless.
GG

ha~ma · « **Reply #59 on:** September 04, 2009, 08:52:19 pm »

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 04, 2009, 08:11:52 pm

Quote from: ha~ma on September 04, 2009, 04:43:08 pm
this is a VERY pointless discussion to begin with.
communication on any level is never pointless.
GG

Actually, if people who weren't hexing started hexing now they could be learning more advanced strats that are used in the actual endgame instead of worrying about levelling! Levelling is not a good tourney strat, playing against other tourney level players is. Some discussions are pointless if they are done to death with redundancy. At this point the people who don't agree with hexing are playing a different game of pokemon (with a self imposed sense of honor or rules that top players do not abide by), and you shouldn't be worried about them. GG

Pajamurai · « **Reply #60 on:** September 04, 2009, 08:57:26 pm »

Man, I'm definitely most excited about battling you ha~ma and cthulu.

ha~ma · « **Reply #61 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:22:47 pm »

Quote from: Pajamurai on September 04, 2009, 08:57:26 pm

Man, I'm definitely most excited about battling you ha~ma and cthulu.

I won't be there, but I'd be happy to NB you sometime.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #62 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:32:38 pm »

im not participating in the tourney, fevenis said he is going to need my help running it, and ev checking etc, so i need to do that.

i will battle you there though pajamurai, i will be dressed up as suzaku from yu yu hakusho, so you can recognize me.

this is who im cosplaying

Pajamurai · « **Reply #63 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:39:46 pm »

So it's looking like I wont have much competition after all -pout- oh well, I can hope some strong random player comes along.

Ac-town · « **Reply #64 on:** September 04, 2009, 10:37:47 pm »

xcthulhux, Do you know if you need any other checkers? I might be able to perform more advance checks if my testing works out to prove a easy solution.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #65 on:** September 10, 2009, 01:52:59 pm »

there wasn't really enough time to do serious checks.
im going to talk to fev about possibly doing more for the tourney next year, as i have some serious ideas.

JeffT · « **Reply #66 on:** September 10, 2009, 08:25:16 pm »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 04, 2009, 04:43:08 pm

Quote from: JeffT on September 02, 2009, 03:43:47 pm
This is an inapplicable comparison.

The relevant comparison is:

A company saves money by pirating the software they use instead of buying licenses. This gives them a monetary advantage over companies that don't do this. Should they do it?

A game is established with certain rules, some perhaps arbitrary, and violating those is cheating.

You're saying that if you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous, including cheating.

The question is, what exactly is cheating? What exactly are the rules? That's the disagreement in this thread.
How is my comparison inapplicable? Your comparison doesn't work because pirating is violating a law. In pokemon as long as your EV's are valid you are not violating the competitive community's rules. You are simply getting these values faster than people who are not doing this. Your argument is assuming that hexers are breaking rules set within the community (note I'm not talking about wifi scrubs, I'm talking about top SBers and NBeres, WIFI community overall is not competitive). I never said that CHEATING within the competitive community's definition of CHEATING is okay. Perhaps i should have made this clear, because this is why your comparison is invalid. I do not cheat in any game that I play, I play within the rules to the greatest stretch in my advantage. The thrill of winning means nothing unless earned in a near zero-sum environment.

The competitive community has set the standard for what is cheating, this topic is completely superfluous. My argument is based on a tried and true competitive format that I will continue to back. No this is not ad populum on my part, I have come to the same conclusions as the competitive community has on my own so I see these rules as appropriate for the game.

That piracy is illegal is why I used it as an example. (I also used it because it's an illegal act which is very rarely punished, very easy to do a little bit of on the side, and often thought of as no big deal when done just a little bit, or in certain limited situations.)

You said: "If you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous to you. " The debates in this thread have been over which acts are cheating (by a given set of rules). Not over whether agreed-upon rules should be violated anyway.

ha~ma · « **Reply #67 on:** September 11, 2009, 01:24:26 am »

Quote from: JeffT on September 10, 2009, 08:25:16 pm

Quote from: ha~ma on September 04, 2009, 04:43:08 pm
Quote from: JeffT on September 02, 2009, 03:43:47 pm
This is an inapplicable comparison.

The relevant comparison is:

A company saves money by pirating the software they use instead of buying licenses. This gives them a monetary advantage over companies that don't do this. Should they do it?

A game is established with certain rules, some perhaps arbitrary, and violating those is cheating.

You're saying that if you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous, including cheating.

The question is, what exactly is cheating? What exactly are the rules? That's the disagreement in this thread.
How is my comparison inapplicable? Your comparison doesn't work because pirating is violating a law. In pokemon as long as your EV's are valid you are not violating the competitive community's rules. You are simply getting these values faster than people who are not doing this. Your argument is assuming that hexers are breaking rules set within the community (note I'm not talking about wifi scrubs, I'm talking about top SBers and NBeres, WIFI community overall is not competitive). I never said that CHEATING within the competitive community's definition of CHEATING is okay. Perhaps i should have made this clear, because this is why your comparison is invalid. I do not cheat in any game that I play, I play within the rules to the greatest stretch in my advantage. The thrill of winning means nothing unless earned in a near zero-sum environment.

The competitive community has set the standard for what is cheating, this topic is completely superfluous. My argument is based on a tried and true competitive format that I will continue to back. No this is not ad populum on my part, I have come to the same conclusions as the competitive community has on my own so I see these rules as appropriate for the game.

That piracy is illegal is why I used it as an example. (I also used it because it's an illegal act which is very rarely punished, very easy to do a little bit of on the side, and often thought of as no big deal when done just a little bit, or in certain limited situations.)

You said: "If you want to play to win, you need to implement every possible strategy that is advantageous to you. " The debates in this thread have been over which acts are cheating (by a given set of rules). Not over whether agreed-upon rules should be violated anyway.

Cheated pokemon are very easy to catch and punish if there is a proper tournament with many EV checkers. So yes, your comparison is still invalid. And it's funny you still are arguing that EV editing is cheating, considering the next point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your convention used rules that are congruent with my argument. Doesn't that furthermore prove my point and make it more clear over what the community considers cheating? To even further this point, I got a PM 1 day prior to the con asking for assistance in editing their pokemon.

Another point to bring up is experience. Sorry if this hurts people's feelings, but I doubt there are many (if any) good Pokemon players here (I consider myself horrible in this generation, I don't want to dedicate the time to relearn all the matchups and put in the time to develop a new team every time the metagame evolves). Many opinions in this thread show lack of experience and lack of overall understanding of the game and its competitive environment. It's difficult to see this unless you have been playing the game at a high level.

As I've said before, this is a pointless thread full of opinions that have been invalidated long before. At this point the argument is over semantics and not even about the original point.

legoman60 · « **Reply #68 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:06:44 am »

arguing on the internet is like racing in the special Olympics

DancingTofu · « **Reply #69 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:46:35 am »

Quote from: legoman60 on September 11, 2009, 02:06:44 am

arguing on the internet is like racing in the special Olympics

Having a legitimate and weighted discussion on the internet is like having a legitimate and weighted discussion IRL, minus voices and interruptions.

Slash5150 · « **Reply #70 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:59:02 am »

this thread is about as good as the threads that debate is smash a fighting game.

You're going to have both sides, those who think this is legit, those who don't.

One thing, EV training isn't really hacking since the stuff was put in there for a legit reason by the programmers and is widely known and the knowledge is available to all gamers.

But I digress, best thing to do, keep your opinion to yourself as far as these types of things go and to probably 86 the thread.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #71 on:** September 11, 2009, 10:46:02 am »

i think i can solve this.

Anybody here play shoddybattle/netbattle?
in all honesty, if you don't, you aren't an experienced player.

anybody who does knows that shoddybattle/netbattle is the most legitimate form of pokemon playing, and guess what? it uses a system exactly like pokesav, except you can't have illegal iv's.

so lets think about this here. anybody who uses shoddybattle is actually a hacker?
i think this point is flawed. the question here was whether or not hacking should be illegal based on what can and will happen in game, such as: legit iv's, quick egg, fast hatch, ev editing(within legal boundaries), and encounter codes.

all of which are done, and excepted legally on shoddybattle, and netbattle, which are considered the highest form of competitivie battling.

so ANY of the people here who are against the idea of pokesav, yet play shoddy battle, have very flawed logic.

JeffT · « **Reply #72 on:** September 18, 2009, 11:33:57 pm »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 11, 2009, 01:24:26 am

Cheated pokemon are very easy to catch and punish if there is a proper tournament with many EV checkers. So yes, your comparison is still invalid. And it's funny you still are arguing that EV editing is cheating, considering the next point.

I am in no way arguing that "EV editing is cheating". I am simply arguing the inapplicability of the analogy you used.

Quote from: ha~ma on September 11, 2009, 01:24:26 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your convention used rules that are congruent with my argument. Doesn't that furthermore prove my point and make it more clear over what the community considers cheating? To even further this point, I got a PM 1 day prior to the con asking for assistance in editing their pokemon.

Again, not the subject of my posts. I was not arguing over what the community considers cheating.

Quote

At this point the argument is over semantics and not even about the original point.

Well, you are right about that.

I probably shouldn't have even stepped in to the argument, as indeed I was just making a minor point.

But, to clarify. It looked to me like you made an assertion that because a strategy is advantageous, one should implement it. That seemed to me to be basically asserting without supporting evidence that either one should cheat, or no possible strategies are actually cheating.

That's why I picked an action in the real world which is understood to be illegal (even though people frequently do it). If your point was the former, then my analogy illustrated that. If your point was the latter, then it didn't give a reason for it. Somebody could argue "using macros/automation/templates is cheating for <xxx> reason". And then you need to argue that point. But your analogy didn't give a reason why using those techniques was not cheating.

So your analogy either argues that one should cheat, or it just reframes the question in different terms without giving a reason. My claim that your analogy was inapplicable was to point this out--not necessarily to take a side on whether specific strategies in Pokemon are cheating.

ha~ma · « **Reply #73 on:** September 19, 2009, 01:01:55 am »

Quote from: JeffT on September 18, 2009, 11:33:57 pm

Quote from: ha~ma on September 11, 2009, 01:24:26 am
Cheated pokemon are very easy to catch and punish if there is a proper tournament with many EV checkers. So yes, your comparison is still invalid. And it's funny you still are arguing that EV editing is cheating, considering the next point.

I am in no way arguing that "EV editing is cheating". I am simply arguing the inapplicability of the analogy you used.

Quote from: ha~ma on September 11, 2009, 01:24:26 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your convention used rules that are congruent with my argument. Doesn't that furthermore prove my point and make it more clear over what the community considers cheating? To even further this point, I got a PM 1 day prior to the con asking for assistance in editing their pokemon.

Again, not the subject of my posts. I was not arguing over what the community considers cheating.

Quote
At this point the argument is over semantics and not even about the original point.

Well, you are right about that. I probably shouldn't have even stepped in to the argument, as indeed I was just making a minor point.

But, to clarify. It looked to me like you made an assertion that because a strategy is advantageous, one should implement it. That seemed to me to be basically asserting without supporting evidence that either one should cheat, or no possible strategies are actually cheating.

That's why I picked an action in the real world which is understood to be illegal (even though people frequently do it). If your point was the former, then my analogy illustrated that. If your point was the latter, then it didn't give a reason for it. Somebody could argue "using macros/automation/templates is cheating for <xxx> reason". And then you need to argue that point. But your analogy didn't give a reason why using those techniques was not cheating.

So your analogy either argues that one should cheat, or it just reframes the question in different terms without giving a reason. My claim that your analogy was inapplicable was to point this out--not necessarily to take a side on whether specific strategies in Pokemon are cheating.

Fair enough, I see where you were coming from now. Thanks for the clarification.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #74 on:** September 23, 2009, 01:40:55 pm »

so have we come to a final ruling?

lets have a vote.

legal vs. not legal

Slash5150 · « **Reply #75 on:** September 23, 2009, 11:17:07 pm »

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 23, 2009, 01:40:55 pm

so have we come to a final ruling?

lets have a vote.

legal vs. not legal

Depends on the tournament organizer. End of Discussion right there.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #76 on:** September 24, 2009, 08:32:50 am »

Quote from: Slash5150 on September 23, 2009, 11:17:07 pm

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 23, 2009, 01:40:55 pm
so have we come to a final ruling?

lets have a vote.

legal vs. not legal

Depends on the tournament organizer. End of Discussion right there.

not talking about tournaments.
talking about in general.
its not like anybody could tell in tournaments anyway.

Memoryless · « **Reply #77 on:** September 24, 2009, 02:13:42 pm »

AR and Pokesav'd pokemon are perfectly fine, so long as the stats, moves, and so forth are legal. The only part I really dislike is that the trainer doesn't put very much effort into that pokemon, and that the IVs wouldn't be a lucky find when they're good. Additionally, I dislike hacked shinies. What's the point of a rare pokemon if it isn't legitimate?

Anyways, even if everything about the pokemon is legal, method of obtaining them aside, unless you know how to toggle around with hex codes, your pokemon will never be 100% legitimate-looking (despite the fact that most people have no clue as to how one might view these hex codes). However, hex codes do not affect gameplay, and as such I believe that people who complain about hacked pokemon with legitimate moves and the like are just looking for something to complain about. After all, the end product would be no different than if the trainer had bred or caught it in the game and trained it from there, provided they took the time to nab one with the best IVs.

ha~ma · « **Reply #78 on:** September 24, 2009, 03:58:10 pm »

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 24, 2009, 08:32:50 am

Quote from: Slash5150 on September 23, 2009, 11:17:07 pm
Quote from: xcthulhux on September 23, 2009, 01:40:55 pm
so have we come to a final ruling?

lets have a vote.

legal vs. not legal

Depends on the tournament organizer. End of Discussion right there.
not talking about tournaments.
talking about in general.
its not like anybody could tell in tournaments anyway.

In general this topic has been done to death elsewhere and overwhelming people say hacking is perfectly legal. I think you know this too. Request lock before any more stupidity goes on in here.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #79 on:** September 24, 2009, 11:30:14 pm »

i don't think i understood what you meant there, but i still want to see where this goes.
if you would like to request a lock, then go for it, but for now i still support this thread and its entirety

Memoryless · « **Reply #80 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:37:00 pm »

Ha~ma means that we're beating a dead horse. I couldn't resist giving my own input. O: <
But yeah. This topic's been done far too many times, and it would seem that the majority of people agree that hacked pokemon, provided their stats, moves, abilities, and types are legal, are perfectly, well, legal.

DancingTofu · « **Reply #81 on:** September 27, 2009, 08:46:42 pm »

A lock seems excessive; so far I haven't seen any flaming or trolling happen here, but I'd agree that it is very much a dead horse. I'm going to leave it unlocked, and people can feel free to post if they have some new revelation to bring to the table, but I very much doubt that anyone does, so I expect this topic to either astound the world with unconventional views, or to die slowly and happily like every other topic.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #82 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:56:19 pm »

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 27, 2009, 08:46:42 pm

A lock seems excessive; so far I haven't seen any flaming or trolling happen here, but I'd agree that it is very much a dead horse. I'm going to leave it unlocked, and people can feel free to post if they have some new revelation to bring to the table, but I very much doubt that anyone does, so I expect this topic to either astound the world with unconventional views, or to die slowly and happily like every other topic.

I SHALL NOT ALLOW THE HUMANE DEATH OF THIS THREAD.

but seriously though, i would like to see more opinions.

i miss the days when this thread was more active >.>

ha~ma · « **Reply #83 on:** September 28, 2009, 12:38:15 am »

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 27, 2009, 11:56:19 pm

Quote from: DancingTofu on September 27, 2009, 08:46:42 pm
A lock seems excessive; so far I haven't seen any flaming or trolling happen here, but I'd agree that it is very much a dead horse. I'm going to leave it unlocked, and people can feel free to post if they have some new revelation to bring to the table, but I very much doubt that anyone does, so I expect this topic to either astound the world with unconventional views, or to die slowly and happily like every other topic.

I SHALL NOT ALLOW THE HUMANE DEATH OF THIS THREAD.

but seriously though, i would like to see more opinions.

i miss the days when this thread was more active >.>

Why aren't you active on Smogon or any other competitive pokemon forums?

xcthulhux · « **Reply #84 on:** September 28, 2009, 12:35:24 pm »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 28, 2009, 12:38:15 am

Quote from: xcthulhux on September 27, 2009, 11:56:19 pm
Quote from: DancingTofu on September 27, 2009, 08:46:42 pm
A lock seems excessive; so far I haven't seen any flaming or trolling happen here, but I'd agree that it is very much a dead horse. I'm going to leave it unlocked, and people can feel free to post if they have some new revelation to bring to the table, but I very much doubt that anyone does, so I expect this topic to either astound the world with unconventional views, or to die slowly and happily like every other topic.

I SHALL NOT ALLOW THE HUMANE DEATH OF THIS THREAD.

but seriously though, i would like to see more opinions.

i miss the days when this thread was more active >.>
Why aren't you active on Smogon or any other competitive pokemon forums?

Because im sick of online gaming.
I want to battle people face to face.
im a little bit active on friendcodes, and i have my own site, which was pretty active back in the day, but it died recently. (http://cthulhuchaos.webs.com/)

Anyway, online gaming just isn't for me.
i like to actually get to know the people im playing against

Memoryless · « **Reply #85 on:** September 28, 2009, 05:05:42 pm »

You don't really have to meet up with the person in, well, person to know them better. I have quite a few friends that I've met online and know very well. They're excellent trainers, too.

I can see why you may prefer the in-person type of socializing, but yeah; it isn't necessary if what you're looking for is just to get to know the people you're playing against.

ha~ma · « **Reply #86 on:** September 28, 2009, 07:02:52 pm »

If you really desire to strive for the best (or even to get better), you have to play where the best are. This is why I didn't go to Kumoricon to play Pokemon. Why play against 30 people who are free when I can find ten times as many players online who can provide a challenge for me? And yes, you can certainly get to know people online. It sounds like there's an element you aren't telling us about that is the true barrier to you playing online.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #87 on:** September 29, 2009, 09:35:40 am »

Quote from: ha~ma on September 28, 2009, 07:02:52 pm

If you really desire to strive for the best (or even to get better), you have to play where the best are. This is why I didn't go to Kumoricon to play Pokemon. Why play against 30 people who are free when I can find ten times as many players online who can provide a challenge for me? And yes, you can certainly get to know people online. It sounds like there's an element you aren't telling us about that is the true barrier to you playing online.

you guys are telling me stuff that i already know, and honestly, i totally agree.
but i got bored with online.
i have a ton of friends online who beg me daily to start playing again, but i just lost interest.
its more fun when you can actually talk to the person you are battling IMO.

Memoryless · « **Reply #88 on:** September 29, 2009, 09:57:29 am »

You can talk to them. IM or voice chat. 0:

xcthulhux · « **Reply #89 on:** September 29, 2009, 10:15:22 am »

Quote from: Memoryless on September 29, 2009, 09:57:29 am

You can talk to them. IM or voice chat. 0:

yeah, but its not the same.

i used to have an IRL team, but one of the better members recently disappeared, which lead to the team splitting up.
ever since then, battling online just seems boring to me.
once you start playing IRL, you don't want to play online anymore. its just not the same.

Memoryless · « **Reply #90 on:** September 29, 2009, 10:56:31 am »

There's really not much of a difference. You can converse with the person, so the only missing piece is that they wouldn't be sitting next to you. The social aspect of Pokemon is important, yes, but the game itself should come first. Play for the love of the game, not for the chance of bonding with your opponents--if it happens, it happens.
Given how much you've mentioned the social part of the battling, you may be better off bypassing the search for trainers and just hanging out with some friends.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #91 on:** September 30, 2009, 06:00:51 pm »

Quote from: Memoryless on September 29, 2009, 10:56:31 am

There's really not much of a difference. You can converse with the person, so the only missing piece is that they wouldn't be sitting next to you. The social aspect of Pokemon is important, yes, but the game itself should come first. Play for the love of the game, not for the chance of bonding with your opponents--if it happens, it happens.
Given how much you've mentioned the social part of the battling, you may be better off bypassing the search for trainers and just hanging out with some friends.

the problem is that i do enjoy the game, but i enjoy playing the game with people.
i always feel alone when im playing it online, and i don't ever see any of my friends that play anymore.

i like hanging out with people and playing with people who actually know a little bit about competitive battling etc.
i miss the old days when all my friends used to play together, and it just doesn't happen anymore.

Memoryless · « **Reply #92 on:** October 01, 2009, 12:37:12 pm »

As you probably know already, most people "in the know" on competitive battling [by standards held by such sites as Serebii, Smogon, and so forth] you won't meet by chance in person.
If you're having difficulty finding friends with similar interests, I'd say to invest time in getting to know people outside of the usual crowd you may hang out with. Often it turns out that the more you have in common with someone, the better friends you'll be.

If you really want competitive battling, just play online with voice chat and IM. Maybe put a thread somewhere to call attention to people in your area who know more about the game's mechanics. I'd bet you'd have a higher chance of finding the types of players you're after if you put in specifics. "Let's all gather and play Pokemon" is likely going to draw a lot of the more casual gamers.

xcthulhux · « **Reply #93 on:** October 03, 2009, 04:04:49 pm »

Quote from: Memoryless on October 01, 2009, 12:37:12 pm

As you probably know already, most people "in the know" on competitive battling [by standards held by such sites as Serebii, Smogon, and so forth] you won't meet by chance in person.
If you're having difficulty finding friends with similar interests, I'd say to invest time in getting to know people outside of the usual crowd you may hang out with. Often it turns out that the more you have in common with someone, the better friends you'll be.

If you really want competitive battling, just play online with voice chat and IM. Maybe put a thread somewhere to call attention to people in your area who know more about the game's mechanics. I'd bet you'd have a higher chance of finding the types of players you're after if you put in specifics. "Let's all gather and play Pokemon" is likely going to draw a lot of the more casual gamers.

in all honestly, im cool with casual players too.
i just want to hang out and talk about pokemon with a group of people, on a semi-regular basis.

Memoryless · « **Reply #94 on:** October 03, 2009, 08:22:05 pm »

There's not a whole lot to talk about with the casual gamers. Movies, anime, and the basic elements of the game is about it, and I imagine it would get old soon enough. I think you'd have a more engaging conversation about it with people online, really.

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