Author Topic: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!  (Read 40674 times)

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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2008, 04:27:26 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2008, 04:34:50 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......

I am by no means trying to say one way or another about the nucear issue yet. But what I will say is that safety codes have been TREMENDOUSLY raised since Chernobyl. Many nuclear power plants in the US have not had new safety regulations put on them in 10 years or so. If we were (as a country) to decide to go nuclear the codes would be so freaking strict that it would be very unlikely to have a simular disaster.

I would need to hear from MANY scientists that the plants were not a danger though to support nuclear energy. The few Pro-nuclear people out there dont convince me of the dangers.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2008, 04:43:47 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......

Yay for someone who actually knows about nuclear energy and how dangerous it is. I really think it's awesome that you petitioned against nuclear power plants. Seriously though, There's actually a video game about Chernobyl.

I just found out that before I moved I lived about 80 miles from Hanford, that's scary, more scary than terrorists. I'm all for wind and solar power myself, no chance of a meltdown from those, and also, looky looky! NO CONS!!! Lots of energy from a nuclear power plant is a plus but just the negative of a meltdown far outweighs anything good from it, there goes whatever state it happens to be in.

Stuff like this should be in middle school classes but they want to keep us brainwashed.

Offline pieisexactlythree

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2008, 05:01:17 pm »
EPIC WIN!!!!

Moreover, I really wish it were true, as some have suggested, that we could move towards becoming a socialist society.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2008, 05:18:14 pm »
@Deviant Spider
I agree with your sentiment on the new president and Mccain's speech.  I didn't vote for Obama myself, but I'll wait to see if he will be a great leader or not.

Now I"m not too knowledge about whole issues on power, so I could mistaken as I say this.  
personally, I think Chernobyl isn't a good example of the negatives of nuclear mainly in that is a extreme case that is very unlikely to happen in the US.  To my knowledge, we have far stricter safety standards then the Soviets had at that time.  And next gen Nuclear power looks to be even safer, to the point of nearly meltdown proof I believe.  And France does get 77% of their power from Nuclear power plants as well yet I haven't heard of them having any problems(admittly, that could because of ignorants).  Of course, the nuclear waste still remains a issue and even if we get practial fusion, radioactive waste will still be a problem that will have to be figured out.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.  I remember reading one new article where the building of a wind power mills was blocked by enviromental groups.  there is problems of a large set up costs as areas good for making wind power are far from places that need it, which means building more power lines and substations.  Solar cells are rather expensive to make as well.

I dun have a strong favour for one or the other as all of them have pro and cons.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:25:58 pm by Seraph »
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2008, 05:34:09 pm »
HAVE ANY OF YOU EVEN READ WHY THE CHERNOBYL ACCIDENT EVEN HAPPENED?!?! COULD YOU TELL ME ONE DETAIL ABOUT IT?!

NO?! WELL HOW ABOUT YOU DO SOME RESEARCH FIRST AND THEN TELL ME ABOUT IT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#The_accident


The way you wrote that was entirelly hurtful and mean. Watch it. I know your a MOD but if you dont stay civil ill have no choice but to report to another MOD. This has turned into a disscusion and is suppose to be civil. If you want to add your info than by all means do, but dont do it this way. It will just encourage anger. And the closing of this "PRESIDENTAL" thread.

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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2008, 05:41:41 pm »
Back on track.

I will state a simple fact, one no one can challenge the accuracy thereof.

Barack Obama won the election, and is president-elect, to be sworn in on January 22nd at noon, 2009.

This jubilates me.

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2008, 05:44:40 pm »
;D

I AM JUBILATED AS WELL!

Other countries sure seem to be happy that Obama will be the president xD
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:45:14 pm by oslapedo »

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #108 on: November 05, 2008, 05:48:04 pm »
well, I will say congrats to Obama and his supporters.
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Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #109 on: November 05, 2008, 05:50:01 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #110 on: November 05, 2008, 06:04:41 pm »
in Germany, there are laws that help you secure your job.  On the downside, because its so difficult for companies to get rid of poor performers, its also very difficult to get hired.
the welfare programs can be very hard to support during a economic crisis as then you have a large portion of people relying on a smaller number of working people's tax dollars.  there is issue of population umbalances where you have a large number of retired people compared to working people which is a major issue in Europe and Japan.

socialist ideals can be great, but sometimes have other problems like I noted above.  At large, I dun think its a good fit for USA, even if it welled liked in Europe(who are struggling with its high cost).

I'm certainly happy in the least that we have some new leadership as well.
On the other hand, I do have concerns with some of his comments.  Particularly, "bankrupt" the coal industry and a civilan national security force thats "just a powerful, just as strong, just as well funded" as the military.  the former was likely taken out of context(I'm hoping) while the latter leaves me confused and only leaves me thinking of a private army or something(there isn't add info on those comments that I'm aware of).
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #111 on: November 05, 2008, 06:44:33 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly. Most of you are students so I will phrase it this way. How would you like if your good grades like you 4.0 or 3.0 gpa were shaved down to 2.0 and given to other students with bad grades so they could also be 2.0. How is that Right?

Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #112 on: November 05, 2008, 06:59:42 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly. Most of you are students so I will phrase it this way. How would you like if your good grades like you 4.0 or 3.0 gpa were shaved down to 2.0 and given to other students with bad grades so they could also be 2.0. How is that Right?
Everyone passes, though.

Thing is, socialism ensures that no one dies because of a treatable disease. Your analogy would have worked if everyone who failed just died outright. Socialism certainly doesn't work for luxuries like school. It works for necessities, like health and food.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #113 on: November 05, 2008, 09:00:56 pm »
wrong topic, don't know how to delete my post.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 09:03:18 pm by guitarherolover32 »

Offline soupisgreen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #114 on: November 05, 2008, 09:04:36 pm »
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly.

I don't mean to be picking a fight or anything like that, but that statement really sounds like your saying the poor are not honest and hard working. Can you really think that the 5% of the nation that holds over 80% of the wealth is more deserving of a decent life than the rest of us? I realize that I've come from a very poor community and am bias toward the lower class but to think the poor deserve to be poor is something I've never heard.

And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like, I've seen the mutated deer out at the Hanford Reach, nuclear meltdown is not the only danger that comes with nuclear power.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.

That is true if you are trying to build a solar power plant but if you only require the average amount of power to power a home, a few solar panels on the roof will do you just fine.

And to try to stay remotely on topic I am very happy that Obama won.

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #115 on: November 05, 2008, 09:04:54 pm »
And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like,
I agree with this. Wikipedia isn't the most accurate and shouldn't be used for a primary source, much less the only source. If you can find another reliable source that says the same as Wikipedia, then you can use it all you want, but as it stands you can't believe everything you read on the internet, much less Wikipedia.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #116 on: November 05, 2008, 09:07:29 pm »
And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like,
I agree with this. Wikipedia isn't the most accurate and shouldn't be used for a primary source, much less the only source. If you can find another reliable source that says the same as Wikipedia, then you can use it all you want, but as it stands you can't believe everything you read on the internet, much less Wikipedia.

With all due respect the wiki link was pretty accurate. Not saying that all of its entrys are, but that one was otay. :)
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #117 on: November 05, 2008, 09:08:29 pm »
Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?
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Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #118 on: November 05, 2008, 09:17:09 pm »
Quote
Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?

I am watching this thread now.  Keep it civil or I will lock it.  As for keeping Kumoricon and politics separate, this is the spam board.  It is for any off topic thing that people want to post about and I will not lock the thread based on that. 

Offline soupisgreen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #119 on: November 05, 2008, 09:30:34 pm »
There isn't any fighting, yet just a political discussion. Political discussions by nature are always somewhat heated. I do hope it can stay civil and not get locked. I enjoy seeing the views of others even if they do not agree.

On the issue of poverty, I know plenty of people that work there entire lives and barely squeak by with the bare minimums. Yes capitalism allows economic advancement but when you need to eat and to feed your family that comes before all else. Those who are truly impoverished never get to see anything close to such opportunity. They have to work any job they can find just to survive.

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #120 on: November 05, 2008, 09:36:33 pm »
 :-\ Well, thank you.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #121 on: November 05, 2008, 09:41:07 pm »
Re: Chernobyl video game-- woah-- If the goal, and effect, is for those who play to realize the inescapable dangers of the nuclear Pandora's Box, then I approve. Otherwise, no one, imho, should profit nor gain pleasure from others' intense suffering. Please tell me more about this.

Re: My cousins' Moshav. Mevo Modi'in, aka, "The Hippie Chassid Moshav". Used to be a commune in Berkeley, "The House of Love & Light." Thanks for asking. They host any visitors on Shabbat! Anyone going to Israel, let me know!

Re: Mutated deer-- I hadn't heard but am not surprised.
Anyone heard of "Downwinder syndrome"? --Folks downwind from nuclear testing sites and nuclear power sites (and some other types of corporate-polluted sites, often deliberately hidden from regulators and/or overlooked by them because of bribes or political connections) having vastly more birth defects, miscarriages, stillbirths, infertility, and cancers? Think Love Canal ('70s real epidemic of environmental toxins causing mass medical problems), Silent Spring (Rachel Carson I think? book-70s), Erin Brockovitch (true story, made into a movie starring Julia Roberts, about corporate contamination of groundwater and soil causing mass cancer deaths and birth defects, them knowing about it and lying about it to their employees). Oh and of course Silkwood, true story about major safety violations and health problems for workers at a plutonium processing plant; when she tried to become a whistleblower she was murdered by someone from the nuclear industry, movie starring Cher and Meryl Streep.

Oh and don't even get me started about logging--clearcutting having decimated not only the forest ecosystems and their many native species, but thereby the ability of trees to help prevent global warming (e.g., absorbing C02, yielding oxygen, providing shade, preventing erosion). Not to mention that if logging had been done sustainably in the NW instead of clearcutting there would've been much less job loss....
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #122 on: November 05, 2008, 09:52:22 pm »
Re: Chernobyl video game-- woah-- If the goal, and effect, is for those who play to realize the inescapable dangers of the nuclear Pandora's Box, then I approve. Otherwise, no one, imho, should profit nor gain pleasure from others' intense suffering. Please tell me more about this.

Re: My cousins' Moshav. Mevo Modi'in, aka, "The Hippie Chassid Moshav". Used to be a commune in Berkeley, "The House of Love & Light." Thanks for asking. They host any visitors on Shabbat! Anyone going to Israel, let me know!

Re: Mutated deer-- I hadn't heard but am not surprised.
Anyone heard of "Downwinder syndrome"? --Folks downwind from nuclear testing sites and nuclear power sites (and some other types of corporate-polluted sites, often deliberately hidden from regulators and/or overlooked by them because of bribes or political connections) having vastly more birth defects, miscarriages, stillbirths, infertility, and cancers? Think Love Canal ('70s real epidemic of environmental toxins causing mass medical problems), Silent Spring (Rachel Carson I think? book-70s), Erin Brockovitch (true story, made into a movie starring Julia Roberts, about corporate contamination of groundwater and soil causing mass cancer deaths and birth defects, them knowing about it and lying about it to their employees). Oh and of course Silkwood, true story about major safety violations and health problems for workers at a plutonium processing plant; when she tried to become a whistleblower she was murdered by someone from the nuclear industry, movie starring Cher and Meryl Streep.

Oh and don't even get me started about logging--clearcutting having decimated not only the forest ecosystems and their many native species, but thereby the ability of trees to help prevent global warming (e.g., absorbing C02, yielding oxygen, providing shade, preventing erosion). Not to mention that if logging had been done sustainably in the NW instead of clearcutting there would've been much less job loss....

Certainly gay marriages are worse than all that, right?

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #123 on: November 05, 2008, 09:59:13 pm »
The Chernobyl game is called S.T.A.L.K.E.R: the Shadow of Chernobyl. I never actually got to play but it's a sci-fi FPS. You can try to find info about it cause I don't really know anything about it except that it took like 10 years to make.

Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?

OK this is kind of bugging me a little bit, if you like kumoricon and you don't like politics, why come in here? Politics+democrat+republican=heated debate. No one is harming you by arguing a little. Politics affects everything and it's not right to block it just because people are arguing.

Certainly gay marriages are worse than all that, right?

Well, considering people believe you're going to hell if you are gay but not if you polute the planet then yes, being gay is just about the worst you can get, hopefully this doesn't get blown out of proportion though.

Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #124 on: November 05, 2008, 10:37:21 pm »
So I hear, global cooling is worse than global warming.

That's cool about the moshav, Rem.  :D

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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2008, 11:21:41 pm »
@Deviant Spider
I agree with your sentiment on the new president and Mccain's speech.  I didn't vote for Obama myself, but I'll wait to see if he will be a great leader or not.

Now I"m not too knowledge about whole issues on power, so I could mistaken as I say this.  
personally, I think Chernobyl isn't a good example of the negatives of nuclear mainly in that is a extreme case that is very unlikely to happen in the US.  To my knowledge, we have far stricter safety standards then the Soviets had at that time.  And next gen Nuclear power looks to be even safer, to the point of nearly meltdown proof I believe.  And France does get 77% of their power from Nuclear power plants as well yet I haven't heard of them having any problems(admittly, that could because of ignorants).  Of course, the nuclear waste still remains a issue and even if we get practial fusion, radioactive waste will still be a problem that will have to be figured out.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.  I remember reading one new article where the building of a wind power mills was blocked by enviromental groups.  there is problems of a large set up costs as areas good for making wind power are far from places that need it, which means building more power lines and substations.  Solar cells are rather expensive to make as well.

I dun have a strong favour for one or the other as all of them have pro and cons.  

Has nothing to do with Obama, but on the other running topic. (maybe we should start a thread on energy?) I see Nuclear (waste disposal a problem, and possibility of radiation and ground water contamination), Wind farms (take large open areas to operate and are unsitely), and Solar (expensive to implement and not effective at night.) mentioned.  What about geothermal, and tidal?  We are located in what is known as "the ring of fire" in short we gots dem volcano thingies everywhere!  Now if you dig yourself a really deep hole near a volcano... then you divert water into it... you get yourself a geyser.  Stick a geothermal generator over it and you have clean power.  a tidal generator operates off of tidal currents.  Unless the moon stops circling the earth I don't think we have to worry about that source of power stopping anytime soon.  Tidal generators may have some impact on aquatic habitats.  I feel that these problems can be solved if we humans actually attempted it.  Oh and I am all in favor of methane as a fuel source for vehicles.  You produce it by throwing vegetable matter into a box and sealing it up.  Commonly refered to as compost.  The gas itself is flamable and capable of operating a motor vehicle that has a carborator and a $100 adaption kit.  Of course the automobile industry hasn't thought of this one yet.  They are going for hydrogen, propane, and bio diesel.  I saw a video in my Jr. High shop class back in 1975 or 76 about a guy in Britain that was running his car off of pig and chicken manure  All the cows in the US probably belch enough methane every day to run a large city for a day.  Cow Power isn't a new idea.  The Short Mountain landfill South of Eugene has a methane generator that puts out enough power for 1000 homes.  That is from just a landfill.  Fuel for thought.

Oh... Yea! Obama won!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:58:48 pm by Wuntvor »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2008, 11:43:03 pm »
I am going to echo Kalira's statement.  Keep it civil please.  Most of you know the difference between constructive and destructive comments/criticism, and all of us, moderators and normal forumgoers alike need to be aware of this.
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Offline megchan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2008, 09:09:59 am »
I don't mean to be picking a fight or anything like that, but that statement really sounds like your saying the poor are not honest and hard working. Can you really think that the 5% of the nation that holds over 80% of the wealth is more deserving of a decent life than the rest of us?

Do you think that the lower class isn't able to have a good life like the 5% of the nation? Everyone in the United States has the same chances for success. My grandfather came from a household of 8 kids during the great depression to run the largest wholesale logging company in the United States.

Anyone can become anything here in the US. Someone from a much less fortunate family could easily come in and take the job that I wanted at Google, anything could happen.

This doesn't have much to do with Obama....

BUT, if I can put my two cents of sociology in here, although everyone would like to believe the rags-to-riches story of the American Dream (which does happen for some people), the fact is, there is no way that EVERYONE can achieve this. Institutions and society keep people stratified (intentional or not). Equal opportunity is something that does not exist in America (or really anywhere else in the world).
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2008, 09:43:33 am »
Thanks for the info about the Chernobyl game, the interest in the Moshav, the info re geothermal and tidal prospects. I was just reading last night in In Good Tilth (a magazine a friend of mine used to edit, which is by/for/about organic farmers and their innovations). First they were talking about how global warming will devastate / has already started to devastate, agriculture, and in particular, agriculture performed without bowing to the pressures from the petrochemical industries--yeah those pesticides and herbicides are often made with leftovers from oil refining, how disgusting is that? Some examples, 70 degree days in March followed by 40 degree days means crops start to grow as though it were May, then get too cold and die or get weakened to the point that they become susceptible to crop diseases; for example there couldn't be organic raw almonds this year in California because some pasteurization-like process was ordered because of mass fungal infection of crops because of temperature fluctuations. Second they were talking about developing new biofuels from agricultural leftovers, such as becoming able to make ethanol out of crops other than corn, and making biodiesel out of new materials, and even their finding some way to use leftover blueberry juice for something....anything getting diverted from the landfill is generally a good thing....

Beyond how obvious it is that there are tons of other materials for building habitats (most sustainably cobb and strawbale). It's flat out dishonest to imply innocence on the part of Big Lumber. Oh and given that I spent years supporting tree sits and road blockades to help protect ancient forest ecosystems I darn well verify that ecosystems are ruthlessly destroyed. There is no comparing loss of 1000 or 500 year old intact ecosystems with monocrops--replacing areas where everything is removed where there used to be maybe a dozen or two dozen different types of trees of different ages and heights and providing habitat for multiple dozens of bird, mammal, and insect species, with gee-look-how-great-we-are-we-replanted single crop trees, all the same age and height and species, inadequately preventing erosion and most emphatically not providing multispecies habitat. This is Oregon, there have been fatal mudslides from clearcutting erosion. There have been successful lawsuits as well as nonviolent direct actions for protection of endangered species decimated by clearcutting. Everyone has had the experience of noting where lovely woods become revolting ugly bald patches. We're talking lands in the public trust, as well as private acreage. BLM. Forest Service. Army Corps of Engineers areas. Clearcuts, nothing left. Oh and let's not forget that some of the worst atrocities in terms of attempts to destroy intact ancient ecosystem have involved verified ARSON BY LOGGING INTERESTS, most famously the area we were able to save after a couple years of unprecedented direct action plus lawsuits, at Warner Creek. But even if everything ever logged by any individual or company were done sustainably, the rendering of such precious ecosystems into products for sale has done great damage in terms of polluting of air and of water. Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

So what's the connection back to Obama?
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').
(b) He is savvy about Environmental Racism, i.e., gee guess where things like toxic waste dumps and incinerators are disproportionally placed, in areas of poor disenfranchised people of color. There's a great class on this topic at U of O btw, as well as one at U Michigan, check out its textbook by Bunyan Bryant as a starting point, he's a great prof.
(c) I'm personally praying he gives Gore some kind of position in the Interior so the person who most made the public aware of the TRUTH of global warming and who intimately knows White House politics can be in a position to directly help shape administrative policy and law.
(d) When he changes how health care is available in this country, he plans to remove exclusions for "pre-existing conditions". So, for example, the vast increases in asthma in the past decade-- much of which is directly caused be vast decreases in air quality-- much of which is directly caused by evil corporations cognizant that they are creating the pollution, but trying to buy their way out of responsibility for it (much like how Big Tobacco paid lobbyists to lie and manipulate and bury studies proving how deadly it is--check out the satire thereof 'Thank You for Smoking' with Aaron Eckhart) --much of which (see Environmental Racism, above) is disproportionately affecting young Black kids and other kids of color in urban areas. No longer would an unscrupulous moneyhungry insurance company be able to decline covering those kids for their environmentally-derived illness. Oh and yeah given that I was a medical social worker for 7 years and had to help folks adjust to fatal cancer diagnoses (and help them hook up with class action lawsuits about such diagnoses) that they got from their jobs such as mesothelioma from working with asbestos or black lung from mining, yeah, I darn well do know what I'm talking about.

I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

But believe what you will; THANK G-D (as each individual chooses to define for her/his-self what they think of as divinity, if anything/anyone) that "the American people have spoken" and we have a real shot at saving at least parts of the planet and at least parts of the population poisoned by the environment through corporate-government complicity.

By government complicity I not only refer to the notorious Republican deregulations, and lobbyists, and corporate kickbacks--but also to the incontrovertible fact that THE U.S. MILITARY IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST POLLUTER. This was something I hadn't known until I was taking Bryant's class during the 1st Gulf War under the 1st Bush (deja vu all over again now eh?) and studying, and making a coursepack for future U of Michigan classes about, the Environmental Effects of the Gulf War. Particularly the DELIBERATE SETTING AFIRE OF OIL WELLS.

So, again, how does this relate back to Obama?
(a) He will pull us out of the Vietnam-like debacle in Iraq a whole lot quicker and cleaner than McCain would've. And given Biden's own son just deployed there, our VP will have personal investment in protecting the soldiers during that process.
(b) He does not have the ties to Big Oil development that Palin does, pushing for destroying the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in the name of oil dependence.
(c) He will urge CONSERVATION like Carter. (I remember when it was the national standard to keep a thermostat no higher than 68 in winter and no cooler than 72 in summer......)
(Yes I know Carter was pro-nuclear-energy but that was from ignorance, the major catastrophes hadn't manifested yet. And he was a humanitarian and a pacifist and promoted middle-east peace, still does.)

Now for Tanis's savvy point--*****Sees red at all homophobes***** I have friends who are in gay marriages, lesbian marriages, multi-person marriages, and even marriages in which one party has gone through gender reassignment. I pray for them that the California measure makes it to the Supreme Court and is thrown out as unconstitutional. All people should be honored for loving whomever they love. Given that Obama specifically said the words "gay and straight" in his acceptance speech (though not going so far in a debate as to support gay marriage) I think he will work towards at least strengthening anti-hate-crime legislation and towards things such as equal rights to visit partners in hospitals. More sad still is I think it was Arkansas? That just eliminated the rights of unmarried couples (emphasizing gay and lesbian, but of course hets will be affected by this, too) to adopt kids or raise foster kids. Two of my best friends in high school were sisters whose mom was in a lesbian relationship, I grew up knowing of alternate parenting households and I also grew up knowing many many kids who were beaten by or raped by het married parents. Who someone loves is not what makes them a fit parent. Obama had a Kenyan dad and a white mom, whose next husband was Indonesian. He knows multiracial families can work. And he knows that multiracial marriages were illegal in the Jim Crow South of the US until extremely recently. I can't imagine he's not going to at some level realize how equivalent the BS is between the current anti-gay-marriage malevolence and that families like his used to face (complete with murder attempts).

speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 10:05:20 am by RemSaverem »
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Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2008, 10:47:16 am »
Quote
I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

I completely agree with the above statement.

Quote
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').

My thoughts on this as that we really don't know how safe it could be at this point.  I am not arguing that it is clean.  Clearly it is not as is has to be buried underground for hundreds if not thousands of years for become safe again.  But as it stands now, we have not built a new nuclear power plant since the 70's.  Technology has undoubtedly advanced and I would really like to see some valid research on this.  I would still prefer wind, solar, geothermal over nuclear but i do see nuclear as potential better option then coal / fossil fuels.  Does any one go to Reed (they have a reactor so I hear) that could enlighten us? 

Quote
Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

Another part of this not many people know is that in a lot of cases companies intentionally dumps stuff into our rivers because it is cheaper to pay the fine then dispose of it properly.  Really this is where government needs to step in and adjust the fines to force companies to be responsible. 

Wow, I am getting off topic here.  Let me try to railroad this back. 

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index.php
Quote
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.

This part of his proposed health care changes I thinks has needed to be done for a long time.  Maybe this effects my field more then others but in the tech world, here is how things go.  Most companies refuse to hire full time employees so as not to have to pay for any type of benefits.  Most temp agencies do not offer any form of insurance or if they do you are paying for it on your own.  The problem this this is these big companies are not using these employees as temps any more.  In the case of Intel They will temp you for one year, lay you off for six months, bring you back for another year.  I am really hoping the above stays true and will close these loop holes.  As it stands now many tech companies will not even hire direct anymore.  They will temp you for 1 - 3 years of no coverage before they will make you a full time employee. 

Quote
speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.

Sad thing is I was waiting to hear gun shots as soon as he was elected during his speech.  I really hope it does not happen.  I think if he sticks to his guns we might really see some of the damage from past administrations undone. 

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2008, 11:48:55 am »
Quote
I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

I completely agree with the above statement.


Thank you.

Quote
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').

Quote
My thoughts on this as that we really don't know how safe it could be at this point.  I am not arguing that it is clean.  Clearly it is not as is has to be buried underground for hundreds if not thousands of years for become safe again.  But as it stands now, we have not built a new nuclear power plant since the 70's.  Technology has undoubtedly advanced and I would really like to see some valid research on this.  I would still prefer wind, solar, geothermal over nuclear but i do see nuclear as potential better option then coal / fossil fuels.  Does any one go to Reed (they have a reactor so I hear) that could enlighten us? 

I do acknowledge that there may have been great advances in how plants can be produced and managed. I can also imagine that, under a McCain administration, there could have been such pressure to build quickly and such vast unemployment leading to pressure to hire quickly, that insufficient training might have been in place before at least some plants went live. Not that everyone working there would be Homer Simpson. But it was among my fears.

Quote
Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

Quote
Another part of this not many people know is that in a lot of cases companies intentionally dumps stuff into our rivers because it is cheaper to pay the fine then dispose of it properly.  Really this is where government needs to step in and adjust the fines to force companies to be responsible. 
I 100% agree both that this phenomenon occurs, and that that is among the many steps necessary to curtail it. (Anyone remember when the Cuyahoga River in Ohio CAUGHT ON FIRE because of dumping of chemicals from, I think it was, photo finishing processes?) Personally I feel jail or (when a waterway crosses state lines) federal prison terms are due for not only the hired hands doing the dirty work but even more emphatically those paying them to do so and those making the decisions at the top within the corporations to do so. Some rich older white dude in a suit who made millions while deliberately and systematically polluting should be left to the mercy of the less rich and not as likely to be white younger guys who got sick from the water he polluted while sharing a cell--maybe THEN we'd see some bigwigs think twice....

Quote
Wow, I am getting off topic here.  Let me try to railroad this back. 
Oops...I'm totally new to the spam forum. I guess I didn't realize that staying on a topic was important in this forum. Though, for my part, I did try to route everything back to Obama in my last post.

Quote
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index.php
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.

Quote
This part of his proposed health care changes I thinks has needed to be done for a long time.  Maybe this effects my field more then others but in the tech world, here is how things go.  Most companies refuse to hire full time employees so as not to have to pay for any type of benefits.  Most temp agencies do not offer any form of insurance or if they do you are paying for it on your own.  The problem this this is these big companies are not using these employees as temps any more.  In the case of Intel They will temp you for one year, lay you off for six months, bring you back for another year.  I am really hoping the above stays true and will close these loop holes.  As it stands now many tech companies will not even hire direct anymore.  They will temp you for 1 - 3 years of no coverage before they will make you a full time employee. 
Totally with you on this. When I first started in the totally different field of working with adults with developmental disabilities, it was the unstated but widely known norm that managers were given kudos for structuring shifts to equal 29 hours--getting the most out of an employee while depriving them of the benefits that started at 30 hours. This was one of the many reasons why the first two agencies I worked for ended up going union. (Not an entirely positive change but did help somewhat.)

Quote
speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.

Quote
Sad thing is I was waiting to hear gun shots as soon as he was elected during his speech.  I really hope it does not happen.  I think if he sticks to his guns we might really see some of the damage from past administrations undone. 

Honestly I was glued to the set myself praying that that did not happen, kept revisiting in my head the coverage of the RFK assassination. A million or however many people in Grant Park, I've been to Grant Park many times for Taste of Chicago, fireworks, etc., it could've become total chaos, a stampede, etc.....The crowd seemed mesmerized and prayerful if anything. Like a huge joyous family reunion......Quite beautiful and moving, really. Chicago has tons of diversity but generally in little packets. I used to say growing up there, a good cab driver (as my grampa was, may he rest in peace), if you told him or her what neighborhood you were going to, would know who (what nationalities of mostly immigrants) lived there. Little Italy,   Ukraine Village, Greektown, neighborhoods definitely mostly Polish or mostly Jewish (West Rogers Park, etc.), Little Delhi (mostly Indian, Devon Ave area), I haven't lived there in a long time but still remember where the enclaves were, and even where the biggest tension was between the Mexican immigrants and the Puerto Rican immigrants (East Rogers Park). Oh and back in the day everyone knew what neighborhood to go to feel safe as a gay man (e.g., Lakeview) or as a lesbian (e.g., Wicker Park). Oh and Obama's own Hyde Park, that's like the rich part of the South Side, and the intellectual enclave of the city; it's where University of Chicago is. Well anyway, all this is to say: Take a town with virtually unrivalled diversity, yet still in ethno-linguistic or subcultural enclaves, and make a massive party peaceful and singleminded like that--I literally was in tears. Hallelujiah!

(edited to fix brackets)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:51:59 am by RemSaverem »
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2008, 12:16:36 pm »
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #132 on: November 06, 2008, 12:18:31 pm »
Quote
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

I saw the box.  Really, much like a lock it only stops the honest man.  If someone really wanted to get the job done, I am sure that would not stop them.

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2008, 12:53:11 pm »
Quote
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

I saw the box.  Really, much like a lock it only stops the honest man.  If someone really wanted to get the job done, I am sure that would not stop them.

Wow. Tanis, thank you for that info. Makes perfect sense to me. And Kalira, sad but true, in fact it had crossed my mind that I had hoped the Secret Service had swept for bombs under the podium.

I think it's a given (in light of today's news and I thought I heard of a plot foiled early in the campaign, maybe even during primary season), that we're not looking at a question of *whether* there will be further intentions or attempts, but *when*, and *how they will be foiled*.
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Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2008, 01:30:35 pm »
I know this is late, but I agree with the statement about epistemology. xD
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2008, 02:28:56 pm »
I know this is late, but I agree with the statement about epistemology. xD

 :-*
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2008, 02:50:33 pm »
first I've heard epistemology, but I have to agree with whats been said as well.  As far as I'm concern, you never completely know if your sources are 100% correct and you're interpreting the information correctly.  And then you have to account for human bias(sometimes minor, sometimes major), both when you're interpreting and from the source itself, also blur what is reality.
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Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2008, 02:53:05 pm »
speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.
Ugh, people can be so ignorant, sometimes  >:(
Sadly, it wasn't a shock, either.
There will be many more attempts, most likely.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2008, 03:56:23 pm »
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

Yeah, its sad that of all the people we could have for a president the one we chose will need so much protection from within our own country.

I dont mind close minded people as they create another aspect of our country, but hating a man in this day and age just cause he is black is so heathen. Weve come a long way from the dark ages of slavery.

I do agree with Tanis. Its much more easy to justify homophobia through religion, verses hatred of a race. And a huge part of our country is very religious.  Homosexuals still have a ways to go to win the same rights. Its a sad reality. But one that I feel we will ultimatly win in the long run. Just like any other minority
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:54:33 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2008, 07:47:16 pm »
I agree with all 3 of your posts.
*sigh*
I can't help but lament the irony that the folks so keen on justifying illegal wars and invasions of other countries in part because they are Muslim theocracies, want to turn around and contrive psuedo-theocracy here, i.e., have government decisions and laws be derived from one faction of one religion......as though they conveniently forget that this nation was founded by and for folks *escaping* religious persecution and imposed dogma....
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2008, 08:05:52 pm »
personally, the number one thing I lament is how hard it can be sometimes to have a polite discussion on politics.  I can understand emotions running high, as the same happens to me, which I hope everyone to take a moment away from the subject to calm themselves down(which I also try to do).
The worse case of it is what really worries me personally.  I consider myself a conservative(technically incorrect, but simplest answer) and Republican, but I usually very weary/nervous about mentioning this as there are people out on both sides of the political fence that can be very discrimatinating or worse, very hostile.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2008, 10:00:00 pm »
Gee, I guess I missed something by going to Portland to be with my mother on election night. She won too by the way. Hood River/Sandy are now safe! lol!

Those were good speeches by both candidates.

Talk radio has been breaking Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment so much, it's no wonder McCain lost. The GOP has lost its' way big time. R.R. must be rolling in his grave. And they have been whining and spewing poison so bad since, I cannot bear to listen. Basically it is not why I registered GOP. Look up Tom MCCall and Theodore Roosevelt, probably two guys who would not survive in today's GOP.

I am a Republican. I did not vote for Obama. I did give him $50 last year, when his candidacy was in jeopardy. Like I was going to just let Hillary in if I could avoid it.

Either and neither candidate could be great, and lousy presidents. Not hard to beat the last one, eh? It all depends upon whom the president-elect chooses to be in his cabinet, and what his party tries to do to him while he is president. We may have Pelosi and Reid try to be president, or maybe Clinton or Schumer. That scares me to death!

I wish I could find on C-Span what I watched today. They re-broadcast Michael Crichton speaking at a joint American Enterprise Institute/ Brookings Institution something or other. It was very good  to hear. Sorry that he's gone now. Basically what he was saying was that we are NOT doing science in a good way. We are basing policy on one lab doing a study, because it costs money to have 3 labs doing the same study. In other  words, we are not basing public policy to the same standards of ensuing good science as we ensure our drugs are safe.

It's easy to see who lives in Eugene! lol

The pilgrims tried socialism. That was the first year they arrived. The one that almost killed them that winter! The next year they tried capitalism. That year they had Thanksgiving!

Anyone care to guess the unemployment in France? Or any other of these socialized countries? It's double what ours is right now.

But, I do think we can do something. But opening the cash register to the health care field scares me silly! It costs the state of Oregon $900 per month to give me health insurance. Multiply that by 360,000,000! 900*360,000,000=$32,400,000,000 per month, times 12 to get a yearly number. =$388,800,000,000 Getting all our military out of everywhere won't cover that cost. You can kiss so much goodbye.

Oh, and which nation leads the world in medical research? It isn't any of the socialized medicine countries, not even Canada.

Ask Pieisexactlythree about the nuclear reactor at Reed college! They have one there. And did you know that all the US Navy warships that are nuclear powered are operated by 19-23 year olds on average? Yes, my co-worker and my boss were both nuclear submariners.

It won't be easy, but I do believe we can do something besides watch the world go to hell in a bucket. Whomever is in charge. If we are honest, use good science, and look for points of agreement instead of pointing fingers.

Another generation or two until we elect a woman?
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2008, 10:03:57 pm »
@jaybug
I agree with all of what you said. 
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2008, 10:26:00 pm »
Ooh, I just remembered this. Does anyone know where nuclear fuel comes from? Has anyone heard that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, at least not by humans. That is excepting zero point energy sources, of which we have barely begun to explore those possibilities. So would you believe that by processing and using heavy metals to produce power, that we cannot increase the level of radiation, but do increase the concentration of radioactivity.

If any of you know of half-life, how long do you think we could go back in time before earth is too radioactive for a modern human to live? I bet that we could not go back in time as far as the dinosaurs. And this may be part of why life only really began about 1/2 billion years ago. This being merely a guess.

Today's lead is yesterday's uranium.
Have Fun

Jay

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2008, 10:48:01 pm »

But, I do think we can do something. But opening the cash register to the health care field scares me silly! It costs the state of Oregon $900 per month to give me health insurance. Multiply that by 360,000,000! 900*360,000,000=$32,400,000,000 per month, times 12 to get a yearly number. =$388,800,000,000 Getting all our military out of everywhere won't cover that cost. You can kiss so much goodbye.

Another generation or two until we elect a woman?
The only thing I'm going to comment on is the money thing and the woman thing. First the woman thing, I think it'd be great if a woman was actually our president and if you think someone shouldn't be president then, well, there's a word for that it's called sexist. How many people do you think wanted to not elect a republican and voted for any democrat except Hilary simply because she's a woman? more than I would want to know. Oh I'm not calling anyone here sexist because no one has said any flat out sexist comments, I'm also a male, by the way.

Second thing about the money, first of all, I like how you throw the ridiculously enormous amounts of numbers around like they are nothing but here's a video that shows a little something about the cost of a certain something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef_blCCBJp0

So if you didn't want to watch The Pinky Show, I'll give you the gist of what this particular video is about. In this video she basically explains how much a US B-2 Stealth Bomber costs to make. $1.5 billion, $1,500,000,000. So the first question I ask is this, do we need any of these bombers? I think we don't need a machine of destruction that can bombs places with impunity. Also, it doesn't say in this video but how many of these bombers do you think have already been made or are currently being made? you most likely won't know unless you work for the government. so what happens if out the money from making 30 of these into giving people money for their health? (Which I strongly believe is more important than a bomber) 30*1,500,000,000=45,000,000,000, there we go, a month of health care for everyone in the US. That sounds pretty sweet to me. but this is just an example of course, I know we are never going to stop production of our weapons.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2008, 11:09:47 pm »
Using the B-2 is a poor example I think.  Largely because that cost is a one time thing.  one reason for the large cost per unit is they also add in the cost of the R&D which is why you sometimes hear buying more would be cheaper. There is also the fact that only a few were be bought every year while they were built(btw, according to the air force website, there 20 B-2).  so its really 20 x 1.5 billon over span of maybe a decade or two.  so it wouldn't pay for 1 month of health care.

As another way of describing why I think using the B-2 is a bad idea, its like buying a $300 TV.  Choosing to not pay for that TV, doesn't mean you saved 300 dollars every month.  just a flat 300.

of course this doesn't account for maintenace and personal, but I would presume thats far less then 1.5 billon.

To be clear, I'm not saying we need the B-2, but just using it is flawed for a reoccuring bill.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2008, 11:27:24 pm »
Using the B-2 is a poor example I think.  Largely because that cost is a one time thing.  one reason for the large cost per unit is they also add in the cost of the R&D which is why you sometimes hear buying more would be cheaper. There is also the fact that only a few were be bought every year while they were built(btw, according to the air force website, there 20 B-2).  so its really 20 x 1.5 billon over span of maybe a decade or two.  so it wouldn't pay for 1 month of health care.

As another way of describing why I think using the B-2 is a bad idea, its like buying a $300 TV.  Choosing to not pay for that TV, doesn't mean you saved 300 dollars every month.  just a flat 300.

of course this doesn't account for maintenace and personal, but I would presume thats far less then 1.5 billon.

To be clear, I'm not saying we need the B-2, but just using it is flawed for a reoccuring bill.

I don't think they add the cost of R&D, I think it's strickly just the how much it would cost to get all the materials, but sadly, pinky doesn't explain it so I can't be sure, although she said "each". You don't have R&D for each unit built, you R&D, and then when that's done you just build them. So if she is just counting the parts then yeah but if it's also maintenance and personal then , you could subtract those, if they apply. but I think it's safe to assume that "building" means having whatever it takes to physically build one, meaning personal and man power. maintenance doesn't matter because it's just the building process, meaning, if you take that into account it would be more than $1.5 billion.

I didn't say that we would save that much each month I just said that not building those would get us (x amount of money). Yes not buying a $300 TV doesn't save you that much but that does mean you have that extra cash to spend on something else that's more of a necessity, like say food. $300 doesn't really compare to $1.5 billion though. $300 dollars you could use for yourself, $1.5 billion you could use for many useful causes, like feeding the hungry, providing shelter for people who have lost their homes, things like that.

I would never take anything the armed forces says and makes available to the public without thinking it's substantially more than they say but here's how much if there's only 20. 20*1,500,000,000=30 billion. How much good could we do with $30 billion?

btw, did you watch the video? also, I'm glad you think we don't need the B-2's (although I think they look sweet, I just don't like why they exist)

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2008, 11:49:15 pm »
I'm pretty sure it does.  I may be mistaken, but I know that they do with the F-22 which is why I presume the same is the case B-2.

as for the video, it just states it cost this much and questions the need for it.

yes its true 300 isn't 1.5 billion, but I was trying to put a anaolgy at what I presume is for most people would better grasp.  300 can still be put all of useful causes too like the exact things you just said, but it isn't going to suddenly let you subscribe to a needed service that is a monthly payment.
the reason why I say its flawed, is that you're appear to be saying forgoing a one time purchase could suddenly pay for health care.

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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2008, 11:50:47 pm »
Obama won.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2008, 11:52:24 pm »
lol yes Obama did win and I'm still glad that he did, even though I think he's going to be assassinated, but I hope not.