Author Topic: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!  (Read 40685 times)

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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« on: November 04, 2008, 08:00:49 pm »
Its official!
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline NightLotus

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2008, 08:01:25 pm »
hey... thats cool ^^

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2008, 08:02:35 pm »
*sigh*
I miss 2010.

Offline Naruchan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2008, 08:06:21 pm »
joy?
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 08:07:02 pm »
I'm sorry demon its just... I"m so in to politics.... This election ment a lot to me, we had full intentions to move to Australia had Obama lost. Also your witnising history.... this si the first black president.... your grand kids will be reading about this in school.
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2008, 08:08:08 pm »
*Strictly my opinion* Obama is a socialist and I really don't want to live in a communist country.
I miss 2010.

Offline Naruchan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2008, 08:08:22 pm »
oh wow
thats interesting when I think about it I guess
xD
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 08:08:43 pm »
Then again I really didn't like either of them.
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 08:08:53 pm »
OMG YAY!!! GO AMERICA!!!

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 08:10:00 pm »
-.- woooo.
I miss 2010.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 08:10:43 pm »
@Demon
I'm really hoping it doesn't turn out that way.  I share your concerns.
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oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 08:12:51 pm »
Seraph it already did, Obama is da pressie XD

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 08:14:34 pm »
I meant communist and socialist signs from Obama. <_<
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 08:15:43 pm »
Thanks Seraph. Its nice to know I'm not completely out of it.
I miss 2010.

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2008, 08:25:27 pm »
Me too, Mustash, me too.
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2008, 08:28:17 pm »
Obama came to my hillbilly highschool in Roseburg but McCain didn't even visit Oregon. Btw, McCain's giving a losers speech right now from Phoenix.

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 08:30:02 pm »
McCain didn't bother with Oregon cause he knew it was a losing battle. He was gunna attempt states that he actually thought he could win over.
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 08:31:49 pm »
He should've at least tried Demony, it's the thought that counts : D

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 08:33:02 pm »
*shrug* Why waste the money. Anyways, over and done with, all we can do now is pray that all the predictions about Obama aren't true.
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 08:36:19 pm »
I think that they're less predictions and moreso conspiracy theories... XD

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 08:36:43 pm »
There are 50 states after all, candidates dun have time for all of them.  


I wasn't aware that Obama was in Oregon though.

@Demon
agreed.  my main concern was the recent "bankrupt coal" remark.
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 08:38:29 pm »
@Seraph I always feel like a dumb teenager but you make me feel smart. :D Thank ya!
I miss 2010.

Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 08:39:21 pm »
Well, I'm happy.  :D
It was my first time voting too!
I feel so privileged to be a part of such history!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 08:41:31 pm by makichan »
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oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2008, 08:40:27 pm »
Well considering that I'm an Oregonian, it makes me feel better to know that he took the time to campaign here, even though most elections are decided by the time they come westward.

I know he came to Roseburg, OR, I didn't get to see him but I got an Obama tanktop ;D

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2008, 08:40:54 pm »
McCain was still confident about winning then. It was back around May-ish, when Hillary was still around.

He knew he was losing by election time, though, because he was throwing an invite-only party. xD

Also, I have friends who are crying in joy right now. I was on the phone for four hours watching NBC with one of my pro-Obama friends. We were talking about how excited we were. Obama's electoral votes are still growing, too.  ;D
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2008, 08:43:10 pm »
I support Foamy for next presidential election. -.- *so done with real people* Foamy has all the answers.
I miss 2010.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 08:44:34 pm »
@oslapedo
you know, Bush did visit Oregon back in 2004...


either way, I dun think its the end of world or anything like that, but just concerns on what I read about during his campaign.
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oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2008, 08:46:00 pm »
@oslapedo
you know, Bush did visit Oregon back in 2004...


2004? I do believe I was only 11 when that occured, I don't think I was too into the presidential campaign :D

Offline Naruchan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2008, 08:46:21 pm »
lol I'M SO WITH YOU HAILEY!!!
xD
FOAMY FOR OUR NEXT PRESIDENT!!
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2008, 08:47:16 pm »
*starting Pro-Foamy campaigns*
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2008, 08:47:39 pm »
WAH! WHO'S FOAMY?!

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2008, 08:48:13 pm »
*jaw drop* FOAMY THE SQUIRREL OUR LORD AND MASTER!

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 08:49:48 pm by DemonSpawn »
I miss 2010.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2008, 08:48:21 pm »
@oslapedo
merely pointing it out.
you were sounding like you made your choice just because Obama visited Oregon.
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oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2008, 08:49:59 pm »
Oh not at all Seraph. It certainly sweetens the deal though, the fact that he came to our politically obscure state unlike McCain who was chilling at barbeques at the time.

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2008, 08:56:38 pm »
You as president would make me move outta the country.
I miss 2010.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 08:57:40 pm »
Obama's about to give a speech >:3

Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2008, 08:58:50 pm »
I'm watching Family guy.....
I miss 2010.

Offline KogaRyu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2008, 09:05:49 pm »
Oh man soooooo exciting!!!!   What a Landslide!!!   This was such a great election!  For the first time i felt that both canidates were amazing. McCain gave a truly amazing speech tonight and I feel proud to be part of such History!


This is a truly Awesome and historic Day.  However there will be much Awesomeness in 2020

Koga
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in 2020


And for the dramatic music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0
Team Koga

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2008, 09:07:32 pm »
True dat Koga! Can I vote anti-Mustash? :3

Offline NightLotus

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2008, 09:07:49 pm »
remind me to hide when this happens! :o

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2008, 09:08:18 pm »
@Oslapedo
I understand your feelings.  I also try to understand that Mccain, as the underdog, had to focus on the more evenly divided states even if they wanted to give other states attention.
just trying to say that Mccain likely wasn't able to visit even if he wanted to.
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Offline Hazuza

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2008, 09:13:34 pm »
WAH! WHO'S FOAMY?!

HOW COULD YOU, OF ALL PEOPLE, NOT KNOW WHO FOAMY ISSS? xD;;



Mrrr... I'm sensing much hate to stir up from this thread >:
Hazu doesn't want Otakus to fight over such silly things, especially that are already decided.

oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2008, 09:14:54 pm »
I'M SORRY HAZU, SOMEONE SHOULD EXPLAIN HIM TO MEH!

I don't think there shall be any hate. We are friendly nerdlings >:3

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2008, 09:16:25 pm »
thats why I'm usually weary of discussing politics.  sometimes I'm worried that mobs will form and attack me if I mention my political leanings.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 09:16:41 pm by Seraph »
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oslapedo

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2008, 09:32:05 pm »
I steer clear of politics around my dad. He's very... um, strong in his opinions :D

Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2008, 09:35:48 pm »
I think that's why everyone waited to bring the topic of politics to the forums. It's such a touchy subject, after all.
We're still united as nerds, gamers, artists, and cosplayers.
United we stand, together we... attend conventions? lol
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2008, 09:50:12 pm »
I just found where I left my forgotten patriotism!

Offline The_Panda

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2008, 10:04:21 pm »
Yeah, Obama visited Eugene, and he went to Ben & Jerrys. He got some ice cream......

Offline Syd-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2008, 10:38:19 pm »
....[/sigh] Oh, wow. This whole Iraq thing is going to suck.....Even more.

Offline Darknight2433

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2008, 10:39:03 pm »
Syddy Kitty needs a hug.  :D

Offline Syd-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2008, 10:42:46 pm »
Well, I'm just a little concerned about Obama's plans for Iraq. >> I mean, if the terrorists over there see weakness[by which I mean withdrawing when the fight isn't over], don't you think they might come onto OUR soil? >> Unless something happened over there that I don't know. <More likely. But, I mean, we can't do anything now. IMMA START BUILDING MY WAR SHELTER.

Offline Darknight2433

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2008, 10:44:33 pm »
Well, they might, but I think they're busy with their civil war for now. And we have much more protection here then troops do there.  :D

Offline Syd-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2008, 10:46:24 pm »
XD Well, that's true, but I mean they got over here before.... DX Ah, I should probably stop. I'm bringing up very touchy subjects.

Offline Darknight2433

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2008, 10:52:54 pm »
Eh. Politics is pretty touchy. I just watch it for a brief understanding of what's going down. I don't have much of an opinion on anything~

Well, besides -one- thing. But that's a reeeeeally touchy and different subject.

Offline Kona-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2008, 10:54:18 pm »
Haha, not to continue the touchy subject, but I think it's a great thing we are withdrawing our troops, and I really don't think that shows a sign of weakness. Also, no country should be stupid enough to try to invade the US considering it's strength and size and military power
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Offline Darknight2433

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2008, 10:56:21 pm »
What I'm wondering is what Obama may do with the funds that we seem to be inserting in Iraq. I mean, is he completely leaving Iraq and it's issues alone, or just taking our troops back? There many not even BE any funds going to Iraq, but I would imagine that there are quite a few.

(And by funds I mean direct money going from tax dollars to Iraq, not fundraisers of anything)

Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2008, 11:00:37 pm »
._.

I is scared

;_;
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Offline Darknight2433

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2008, 11:02:44 pm »
DON'T BE! What are you scared of? D=

Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2008, 11:04:36 pm »
Bombs, people come over here (yes they are stupid yet smart at the same time enuff to do that) and....pretty much everything x.x
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Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2008, 11:07:15 pm »
We've been training their military to take over after we pull out, so that it can maintain a stable economy without our constant interference. That would also benefit us, because we could then focus on getting ourselves out of this ridiculous national debt crisis.
I'm not worried about Iraq invading us. It's the terrorists that make it problematic...
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Offline Hazuza

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2008, 11:18:25 pm »
With how ridiculously cautious America has been about terrorism post 9/11, and with the power we have, I seriously doubt there'll be any large problems. xD

I'm not saying there won't be any at all, but nothing big that would hurt us too much *u*;

Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2008, 11:20:19 pm »
But but......The terrorists from 9/11 were trained in america on how to fly a plane and the people didnt thing it was suspisous when they handed a wad of cash in and didnt bother to learn how to work the radio or anything....all they called was the FBI and they never thought one bit to call the CIA =3=
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Offline Syd-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2008, 11:21:43 pm »
>< I didn't mean to bring it up. DX XD Though, it sounds like we have nothing to worry about.

Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2008, 11:27:52 pm »
But but......The terrorists from 9/11 were trained in america on how to fly a plane and the people didnt thing it was suspisous when they handed a wad of cash in and didnt bother to learn how to work the radio or anything....all they called was the FBI and they never thought one bit to call the CIA =3=
Yeaaah... but that was also before we heightened our security measures.
Now, we can't even bring our own freaking bottled water on flights >,<
We are still very cautious about maintaining security here in the US. Just because we're bringing troops home, doesn't mean we'll demolish our established barriers here.
We also have allies :P
lol and don't worry Syd. It's perfectly normal to talk about this schtuff. xD
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2008, 11:30:24 pm »
So like obama won, and I just got back from a party celebrating his win.

However, I'm not an Obama supporter.   That being said, I'm not a mc-cain supporter either.  If Obama really supported change why in the world did he vote to bail out wallstreet 700billion dollars?  This is the same reason why I didn't vote for Smith.
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Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2008, 11:31:15 pm »
When I get older Im just sticking to not really careing and not voteing at all.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2008, 11:38:21 pm »
FYI:  CIA is legally not allowed to work on US soil.
at least, thats how it should be....<_<
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2008, 11:40:55 pm »
When I get older Im just sticking to not really careing and not voteing at all.
Don't do that, just don't watch all the TV ads, seriously, they are a waste of time.  We can learn more in 10 mins by reading a politician's website.  The past 3 times I've voted in a pres election oregon has gone democratic.  Heck, this time they called the election without even giving us time to finish counting oregon votes.  So, search your heart and think about what would benefit oregon ask the questions and ignore the national rhetoric that is spewing all over the place.

While I didn't vote for either, I have nothing against obama and I hope he'll make good choices.
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Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2008, 11:44:18 pm »
@mel: =3= all politics are pretty much a waist of my time I dont really care who does what as long as it doesnt affect me in a sertain situation I could care less  :D

@seraph: But the CIA is like the police and everything ._. atleast thats what my old criminal justice teacher said =3=
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »
Not all politics are a waste of time.  Yes maybe they didn't even consider us in the pres election but we have a voice in local things if nothing else.
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Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2008, 11:47:02 pm »
@mel: But for me its a waist of time....;_;
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2008, 11:47:51 pm »
@KFC
the CIA is suppose to gather information about other countries.  sometimes secret information.
you may be confusing them for the FBI, who are like a national police.
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Offline KinkyFriedChicken

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2008, 11:48:39 pm »
@seraph: Then my teacher is retarted I wont belive anyone that isnt mah friend now DX
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2008, 11:51:20 pm »
The Federal Bureau of Investigation conducts investigative and para-military activities around the US as needed.

The Central Intelligence Agency obtains information from other countries which is published here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ , and also handles requests of information from US citizens. It also obtains classified information for members of government with such rights.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2008, 12:36:48 am »
All I can say (so that I don't get myself banned from the kumoricon boards for being mean) is I'm glad Obama won and there's no way we're getting invaded by Iraq. We are ILLEGALLY in a war over there and they didn't even do anything to us.

ok stopping now.

Offline Kimiski

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2008, 01:25:50 am »
*Strictly my opinion* Obama is a socialist and I really don't want to live in a communist country.

Says McCain, who was so desperate in his attempt to gain the white house he picks someone like Palin who he thought would help, and completly backfired on him, cause he knew nothing about her, then he pulls out the dirty political crap and starts calling Obama every name in the book!

THANK GOD OBAMA WON!


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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2008, 03:04:27 am »
*Strictly my opinion* Obama is a socialist and I really don't want to live in a communist country.
Have you ever watched a movie called Sicko? Go watch it, then determine if you want socialized medicine in the USA.  They already have it in Canada, Britain, France, and the rest of Europe.  Those aren't communists, just smarter than we are.  They didn't let the drug manufactuters and health care providers decide on who can get health care, we ( the capitalist country controlled by greed, and the almighty dollar ) did.  Yes we will have to pay more taxes to cover the cost of socialized medicine, but we won't have to pay socialized (um social, I meant social)  security (something that most of us will never benefit from anyway) and HMO medical costs out of every paycheck (and matched by your employer), and we won't have to worry about having the money to pay for the operation we need, or being tossed out of the hospital because we can't pay for the service.

As for the war.  The terrorist that were responsible for 911 weren't even from the country we are at war with!   The only retaliation we might get is the people we are fighting retaliating because we startied the war with them!  The whole war is a huge joke, but I'm not laughing.  I personally think the whole thing is just an example of history repeating itself.  Ever hear of Pearl Harbor?  You think we didn't know the Japanese were going to attack?  Those in charge knew, and decided NOT to do anything because the US government needed a reason to help England & France fight against the Germans.  We pissed off the Japanese, and then acted surprised when they retaliated. Yes, we made them retaliate.  Pearl Harbor was an act of retaliation for the US's heavy handed methods of stopping all trade to and from Japan.  We ticked off the Japanese Emporer, and he decided to attack us.  We also launched a huge propoganda campaign. "Did you know that the Japanese aren't even human?  They are beasts like monkeys.  They said so on the radio!"  Gotta love the government and the almighty bigot. 

Bush needed a reason to go to war.  You think he didn't know about the terrorist?  You think they couldn't have stopped a plane from crashing into the Pentagon?  They let it happen so they would have a reason to go to war.  It worked before.  It will most likely work again. Bin Laden's family was in the US and we safely escorted them out of the country, after 911Bin Laden gave young George Bush money to start a business, before he was president and had even eaten dinner in his home.

That should get a few responses.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2008, 03:18:08 am »
@kimiski-Obama is a socialist. It's not name calling it is a fact. Read and learn what his positions are and then read up on the politics of socialism. He is a classic socialist.


@guitarherolover32- I am not worried about Iraq attacking us, I am worried that terrorist will attack us. Yes they will see our leaving Iraq as weakness just as they percieved it as weakness when we left Somalia. Terrorist dont belong to a certian country but they hide out in them, like Iraq. They dont wear uniforms or make declarations of war they just try to kill as many of us as they can when they blow themselves up.


@everyone- I know obama talked alot about change, BUT SO HAS EVERY POLITICAN WHO IS RUNNING AGAINST AN INCUMBENT! THIS IS NOTHING NEW! IT HAPPENS EVERY ELECTION! Really this election was a big popularity contest and it was cool to vote for Obama. I fear America will stop being the greatest country in the world and start being just another country.

@Wuntvor- You really want to bring up a Michael Moore film? That guy makes more stuff up than the National Inquirer. If he is so right then why didn't Obama put him on the campain trial with him? Socialized medicine is great if you want to wait 3 months just to see a doctor or get the cheapest surgery possible not the correct one.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 03:24:28 am by Higuma »

Offline Syd-chan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2008, 06:31:09 am »
@ Higuma: ...You make a valid point there.

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2008, 08:36:22 am »
didnt mean to make a touchy subject, I'm personaly just extacicly relieved that Obama won.... To the point I was crying. >.> I dont believe he is a socilist. Both he and Mcain have bits of sociliest aspects in their campiegns, but that doesnt make them sociliest, or comunist, its good to have a lil bit of everything (cept maybe dictaorship)

I honestly didnt mean to be create tension you guys im sorry x.x ya see at my school 90% of us are democrats, the whole school is celibrating today, and I helped out yesterdayw hen we were counting out the ballets for the seniors in at lunch before we droped them off, i was pushing down acusations of bill schizmores measures being good, and taking part in debates we held at school... the elections ment a lot to me, I feel like i was ashamed to live under Bush for 8 years and I'm glad its over and I have a leader I respect and look up to and who I believe help us regain our respect in the world and lead us to something better than we have now. Of course I could be wrong, though I doubt it. Ive been an Obama fan since he anounced he was running.

I apoligize for creating a touchy subject, mods feel free to lock it if you feel you need to. I wont take offince, I was being irational in the heat of the moment not remebering not everyone feels the same way as I do.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2008, 09:05:54 am »
Its ok to debate touchy subjects and have different opinions thats what makes this country great. We have the freedom to think what we want too.

Offline uraharafreak

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2008, 10:14:51 am »
Higuma your points are awesome. Have you watched any of the news clips on YouTube? There are some good ones where Obama and his wife both make very valid socialist statements. I'm fearful of what might become of the US.


xxxchihiroxxx it's understandable that your so touchy and it's okay, as long as we agree to disagree. The majority of the people I work with are democrats, I am not one of them (nor am I republican). The one thing that gets me is that they believe that everyone not democrat are stupid...not differently opinionated. They refuse to listen to other opinions, in the end are ignorant and narrow minded. As long as people are willing to listen and accept people for their differences, then it's ok.

Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2008, 10:45:15 am »
We are ILLEGALLY in a war

Um no... You fail. After 9-11 congress declared a "War on Terror" and that is still in effect. President Bush is the commander-and-chief of our armed forces and can deploy them wherever is needed.
Oh my, no.

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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2008, 10:53:42 am »
lol holy s***, Tanis, I love you, the pinky show is awesome and is completely true. That little piece of digital goodness says everything about the ILLEGAL war in Iraq, and if you bother to look at their other videos, they even tell us everything we SHOULD know about Vietnam and I think Desert Storm. The Bush family is evil and if you don't believe me, watch a video called, "The World According to Monsanto".

Amazing how much a little talking cat with a very unique voice can get some much information and still not be believed by republicans.

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2008, 11:02:21 am »
They refuse to listen to other opinions, in the end are ignorant and narrow minded. As long as people are willing to listen and accept people for their differences, then it's ok.


Quoted For Truth!  Sometimes real life reminds me of animal farm too much. 

I remember the meeting where they were trying to discuss things, and all the sheep just keep chanting two legs bad four legs good.  Sometimes it seems like some of the people around me are like that.  Frightening. 
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2008, 11:20:04 am »
Why would anyone come into a topic that is obviously going to be about people being happy and overjoyed that Obama won, then proceed to look down and call him names? I think it's called flaming in forum terms.

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2008, 11:36:14 am »
I don't see anyone flaming in here.  All of the posts on this thread are politely expressing how people feel and think.

I don't think it's fair to censor people that might not feel the same as others about Obama's victory.
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Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2008, 11:42:51 am »
I think the important thing to remember is to respect each other and try to not disregard anyone's opinions. This is a free discussion. We should be able to say what we want, within logical reasoning, right?
On a more positive note >,>;;
McCain's speech was really commendable. I appreciated that despite his loss, he acknowledges everyone's support and will now look at this as one of the greatest opportunities that he's ever had the chance to be a part of.
I also thought that it was very humble of him to address that even though he didn't win, we should still support our new president. The act itself was very noble, especially since I don't think I could have reacted the same, given his circumstances. It's nice to finally not see them at each other's throats.
I understand that many people are worried, indifferent, or infuriated with the election. Even though a candidate has been chosen, we still have to remember that there's a tough road ahead of us (not to mention, a huge sum of debt).
Having a new president is not a quick fix, but rather, a step towards a different and hopefully, better direction.
Let's not count this as a complete loss or victory just yet.
We haven't seen any results, but I remain hopeful.

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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2008, 11:58:41 am »
Yeah, at the moment McCain realized the election was over, he turned away from this frothing-at-the-mouth, presidential wannabe who was desperate for anything, and he turned into the man he was at the start of the race, who was noble, humble, and wanted a by-the-books election.

Speaking of, a by-the-books election was what we got. The Republican party (as well as the Democratic party) pulled no major shenanigans this election. However, the same can't be said of independent minds acting upon McCain's behalf but without his approval, but that said, McCain's party performed nicely when they could have played the dirty game.

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2008, 12:20:01 pm »
*Strictly my opinion* Obama is a socialist and I really don't want to live in a communist country.
Have you ever watched a movie called Sicko? Go watch it, then determine if you want socialized medicine in the USA.  They already have it in Canada, Britain, France, and the rest of Europe.  Those aren't communists, just smarter than we are.  They didn't let the drug manufactuters and health care providers decide on who can get health care, we ( the capitalist country controlled by greed, and the almighty dollar ) did.  Yes we will have to pay more taxes to cover the cost of socialized medicine, but we won't have to pay socialized (um social, I meant social)  security (something that most of us will never benefit from anyway) and HMO medical costs out of every paycheck (and matched by your employer), and we won't have to worry about having the money to pay for the operation we need, or being tossed out of the hospital because we can't pay for the service.

As for the war.  The terrorist that were responsible for 911 weren't even from the country we are at war with!   The only retaliation we might get is the people we are fighting retaliating because we startied the war with them!  The whole war is a huge joke, but I'm not laughing.  I personally think the whole thing is just an example of history repeating itself.  Ever hear of Pearl Harbor?  You think we didn't know the Japanese were going to attack?  Those in charge knew, and decided NOT to do anything because the US government needed a reason to help England & France fight against the Germans.  We pissed off the Japanese, and then acted surprised when they retaliated. Yes, we made them retaliate.  Pearl Harbor was an act of retaliation for the US's heavy handed methods of stopping all trade to and from Japan.  We ticked off the Japanese Emporer, and he decided to attack us.  We also launched a huge propoganda campaign. "Did you know that the Japanese aren't even human?  They are beasts like monkeys.  They said so on the radio!"  Gotta love the government and the almighty bigot. 

Bush needed a reason to go to war.  You think he didn't know about the terrorist?  You think they couldn't have stopped a plane from crashing into the Pentagon?  They let it happen so they would have a reason to go to war.  It worked before.  It will most likely work again. Bin Laden's family was in the US and we safely escorted them out of the country, after 911Bin Laden gave young George Bush money to start a business, before he was president and had even eaten dinner in his home.

That should get a few responses.

I support this post.
Especially after working in a federally-funded Health Care for the Homeless Medical / Dental / Eye Clinic as the social worker (and, btw, the Spanish translator), for 7 years.

I lament that folks still "buy the hype" of typical Republican disinformation deliberately spread...Personally I don't think 'share the wealth' is an intrinsically socialist statement, but then again my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel (it's similar to a Kibbutz but more Western) and I view that as a Utopian community. Oh and how 'bout them Dirty Tricks, the juvenile version of Black Ops that Republicans put on every election-- such as the text messages and emails, only sent to known Obama supporters, claiming that the election was Weds. and not Tues.....After 2 consecutive 4-year periods of Dirty Tricks and election fraud leading to falsely imposing the Republican President who now has THE LOWEST APPROVAL RATING IN THE HISTORY OF POLL-TAKING (about 26%), I'm euphoric that we have a real grass-roots leader who was sincerely elected.

Some election fraud movies you should see:
Unprecedented (narrated by Danny Glover)
Stealing America
(in case folks are too young to know: there were such deliberate sabotages of those voting for anyone other than Bush as false disenrollment from the voting registrars, ballots that left off other candidates, machines that incorrectly registered votes, the whole 'dangling chad' issue with paper ballots being tabulated incorrectly....oh and gee no coincidence that the worst infringements were in Florida, governed by, gee, the Pres's own bro, both raised by someone who was the head of the CIA before he was Pres....Not a coincidence that the story about the elections official who slept overnight in a locked room at the polling place with all his county's ballots was in Florida.

Yay for Sarah Silverman (famous Jewish comedienne) whose The Great Schlep targeted Florida.

Oh and btw my dad, who saved lives in operating rooms for 40 years and was due to retire, can't. Why? Because of the Republican deregulation fiasco that is ruining millions of people of most income levels, while still awarding millions to their Wall Street pets who fund their campaigns. He had an IRA with Fannie Mae and Lehman Bros. Oops. Good thing he'd already paid off his mortgage.

Remember that despite claiming to be a 'maverick' so many times that Tina Fey turned it into a drinking game, McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time. Hell on wheels no way is that being a maverick.

My boyfriend and I had made a pact to move to Canada if Obama didn't win.

Not to mention that the multiple generations of Bushes have damned the earth with vast ecocide that will lead to vast uncountable numbers of deaths of species and of humans by deliberately selling out the truth of global warming to continue their funding from and funding of oil lobbyists and comparably earth-annihilating industries. Of course, if the election had been accurately held, Gore would've been in place, and instead of having to make the only best-selling documentary that wasn't by Michael Moore, could have been saving the earth more directly.

End of rant for now.

BTW I personally canvassed door to door for Obama, 5 days this week, over 22 hrs, over 300 contacts. Kudos to anyone who helped in any way.
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2008, 12:26:18 pm »
Could we just stop please? I'm sick of the arguing. Obama won. Thats that. I'm done caring.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2008, 12:29:19 pm »
We are ILLEGALLY in a war

Um no... You fail. After 9-11 congress declared a "War on Terror" and that is still in effect. President Bush is the commander-and-chief of our armed forces and can deploy them wherever is needed.
Oh my, no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Khut8xbXK8

Thank you for posting this amazing video that renders its complex subject matter so immediately accessible and comprehensible (though I have only watched the beginning of it I will try to finish by the end of the day).
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2008, 12:32:29 pm »
lol holy s***, Tanis, I love you, the pinky show is awesome and is completely true. That little piece of digital goodness says everything about the ILLEGAL war in Iraq, and if you bother to look at their other videos, they even tell us everything we SHOULD know about Vietnam and I think Desert Storm. The Bush family is evil and if you don't believe me, watch a video called, "The World According to Monsanto".

Amazing how much a little talking cat with a very unique voice can get some much information and still not be believed by republicans.

For those unaware, Monsanto is one of the worst corporations on the planet, and the giant in the world of genetic engineering of 'food'.
One of the all-time scariest experiences I've had was seeing a documentary about the vast hazards, not only to human life but also to the earth, of genetic engineering of food crops. It's called "The Future of Food". Another documentary I have not yet seen but that explores the same topics is "King Corn".
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Offline Toxikon

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2008, 12:49:10 pm »
What I don't get about elections is when people say they'll move out of the country if the candidate they support doesn't win.  Our democratic system doesn't let any president stay in office more than eight years.  I would hope people would have enough faith in this country to weather out the storm and try to change things the next election.

Also, people seem to be playing up the amount of power the president wields.  I'm no political buff, but I do know that there are checks and balances in our government, and that the Legislative branch is a huge part of decision-making.

One more thing, I think it just plain sucks how aggressive Democrats and Republicans are towards each other.  I'm registered independent, because I can't stand how the two parties can't seem to work together on ANYTHING.  And what happens when you don't like either of the candidates?  You either have to suck it up and vote for someone you don't like, or "throw your vote away" on a third-party candidate.

In closing, I'll have to say my favorite campaign this year was:
Cthulhu for president!  Why choose the lesser evil?
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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2008, 12:57:26 pm »
^I agree and ILU for that last statement. XD
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2008, 01:18:02 pm »
@Toxikon
ditto.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2008, 01:36:11 pm »
Sure, the president doesn't have all the power, but both houses of Congress have a democratic majority now, so the Democrats have all the bacon now.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2008, 01:47:11 pm »
What I don't get about elections is when people say they'll move out of the country if the candidate they support doesn't win.  Our democratic system doesn't let any president stay in office more than eight years.  I would hope people would have enough faith in this country to weather out the storm and try to change things the next election.

Also, people seem to be playing up the amount of power the president wields.  I'm no political buff, but I do know that there are checks and balances in our government, and that the Legislative branch is a huge part of decision-making.

One more thing, I think it just plain sucks how aggressive Democrats and Republicans are towards each other.  I'm registered independent, because I can't stand how the two parties can't seem to work together on ANYTHING.  And what happens when you don't like either of the candidates?  You either have to suck it up and vote for someone you don't like, or "throw your vote away" on a third-party candidate.

In closing, I'll have to say my favorite campaign this year was:
Cthulhu for president!  Why choose the lesser evil?

If McCain won I would have most likely moved to Canada because he would have continued ruining our economy and killed the earth more by pushing to get "natural energy", which to him apparently means nuclear power plants.

I think Mr. Mustash said he could send troops wherever he wanted but that's not necessarily true. He can try but he still needs other people to approve(forgot the name of it), which is why we are not "at war" we are invading another country.

Democrats and Republicans are at each others throats because each side wants the country to be what they believe to be better. You can't tell someone that what they believe to be right isn't right because they will retaliate against you. If not then I think they are just sheep, wanting to be herded, told what to do.

Oh yeah, everyone should watch the pinkyshow videos.

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2008, 04:19:16 pm »
   Nuclear waste can either be reprocessed or disposed of safely, provided certain precautions are taken.

Dangerously, unfathomably untrue.

First of all, there's nowhere to put it. Heard of the Yucca Mountain controversy? The US tries to hide all the insanely radioactive nuclear waste, where? Well no state government wants it so they try to go through the impoverished Tribal governments on Indian Reservations.

Oh and speaking of illegal war-type operations, all those tests of nuclear weapons are illegal, even the ones within what appear to be US borders. The "Nevada" nuclear test site is actually on land ceded to the Western Shoshone Nation through the Treaty of Ruby Valley of I think it was 1886, and the Shoshone have been fighting them since day one.

The idea that if the president wants to do something or just goes ahead and does it like a rogue, that that means it's not illegal, is incredibly dangerous beyond description. Oh, and it just so happens to have been Nixon's belief (check the trailer for the forthcoming adaptation of the play, Frost/Nixon, starring Frank Langella and Michael Sheen, directed by Ron Howard).
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2008, 04:21:53 pm »
Im glad Obama Won. I dont need any more persausion from anyone one way or another. What we needed *BOTTOM LINE* was a NEW president. Honestly had McCain won he would face the same tests that Obama will now face. And even so If McCain had won I would still support him as MY president of the United States untill he could prove to be a failure, same with Obama. No one should diss our new president, he has done nothing to warrant it. I personally enjoyed McCains speech last night for saying just that very thing.

We have a new president. Bush is out. Will Obama be a great leader? Thats what we get to find out. Its the same question we would have had with McCain.

I voted Obama. But I wouldnt have moved to Canada if McCain won. Either one deserves respect and the oppourtunity to turn this country around
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2008, 04:27:26 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2008, 04:34:50 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......

I am by no means trying to say one way or another about the nucear issue yet. But what I will say is that safety codes have been TREMENDOUSLY raised since Chernobyl. Many nuclear power plants in the US have not had new safety regulations put on them in 10 years or so. If we were (as a country) to decide to go nuclear the codes would be so freaking strict that it would be very unlikely to have a simular disaster.

I would need to hear from MANY scientists that the plants were not a danger though to support nuclear energy. The few Pro-nuclear people out there dont convince me of the dangers.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2008, 04:43:47 pm »
I'd logged out, but logged back in because I'm just completely incredulous that anyone could live in the vicinity of Trojan nuclear power plant and the Hanford "nuclear reservation" and still not realize that all things nuclear are INSANELY BEYOND DESCRIPTION DANGEROUS.
I realize that most of you were not born yet for Three Mile Island and Chernobyl nuclear meltdowns and radiation releases, but we're talking massive crises with (in the Ukraine, where I'm 1/4 from heritage-wise) ongoing contamination of soil etc. a generation later.
I realize that some of you were not born yet when I was one of the chief petitioners locally towards closing Trojan nuclear power plant but let me tell you, back in the day, we were DEAD LAST, 111TH OUT OF 111, the plant on the Columbia River had THE WORST SAFETY RECORD IN THE COUNTRY.

All this should be taught in every middle school science class......

Yay for someone who actually knows about nuclear energy and how dangerous it is. I really think it's awesome that you petitioned against nuclear power plants. Seriously though, There's actually a video game about Chernobyl.

I just found out that before I moved I lived about 80 miles from Hanford, that's scary, more scary than terrorists. I'm all for wind and solar power myself, no chance of a meltdown from those, and also, looky looky! NO CONS!!! Lots of energy from a nuclear power plant is a plus but just the negative of a meltdown far outweighs anything good from it, there goes whatever state it happens to be in.

Stuff like this should be in middle school classes but they want to keep us brainwashed.

Offline pieisexactlythree

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2008, 05:01:17 pm »
EPIC WIN!!!!

Moreover, I really wish it were true, as some have suggested, that we could move towards becoming a socialist society.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2008, 05:18:14 pm »
@Deviant Spider
I agree with your sentiment on the new president and Mccain's speech.  I didn't vote for Obama myself, but I'll wait to see if he will be a great leader or not.

Now I"m not too knowledge about whole issues on power, so I could mistaken as I say this.  
personally, I think Chernobyl isn't a good example of the negatives of nuclear mainly in that is a extreme case that is very unlikely to happen in the US.  To my knowledge, we have far stricter safety standards then the Soviets had at that time.  And next gen Nuclear power looks to be even safer, to the point of nearly meltdown proof I believe.  And France does get 77% of their power from Nuclear power plants as well yet I haven't heard of them having any problems(admittly, that could because of ignorants).  Of course, the nuclear waste still remains a issue and even if we get practial fusion, radioactive waste will still be a problem that will have to be figured out.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.  I remember reading one new article where the building of a wind power mills was blocked by enviromental groups.  there is problems of a large set up costs as areas good for making wind power are far from places that need it, which means building more power lines and substations.  Solar cells are rather expensive to make as well.

I dun have a strong favour for one or the other as all of them have pro and cons.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:25:58 pm by Seraph »
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2008, 05:34:09 pm »
HAVE ANY OF YOU EVEN READ WHY THE CHERNOBYL ACCIDENT EVEN HAPPENED?!?! COULD YOU TELL ME ONE DETAIL ABOUT IT?!

NO?! WELL HOW ABOUT YOU DO SOME RESEARCH FIRST AND THEN TELL ME ABOUT IT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#The_accident


The way you wrote that was entirelly hurtful and mean. Watch it. I know your a MOD but if you dont stay civil ill have no choice but to report to another MOD. This has turned into a disscusion and is suppose to be civil. If you want to add your info than by all means do, but dont do it this way. It will just encourage anger. And the closing of this "PRESIDENTAL" thread.

Thanks.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2008, 05:41:41 pm »
Back on track.

I will state a simple fact, one no one can challenge the accuracy thereof.

Barack Obama won the election, and is president-elect, to be sworn in on January 22nd at noon, 2009.

This jubilates me.

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2008, 05:44:40 pm »
;D

I AM JUBILATED AS WELL!

Other countries sure seem to be happy that Obama will be the president xD
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:45:14 pm by oslapedo »

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #108 on: November 05, 2008, 05:48:04 pm »
well, I will say congrats to Obama and his supporters.
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Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #109 on: November 05, 2008, 05:50:01 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #110 on: November 05, 2008, 06:04:41 pm »
in Germany, there are laws that help you secure your job.  On the downside, because its so difficult for companies to get rid of poor performers, its also very difficult to get hired.
the welfare programs can be very hard to support during a economic crisis as then you have a large portion of people relying on a smaller number of working people's tax dollars.  there is issue of population umbalances where you have a large number of retired people compared to working people which is a major issue in Europe and Japan.

socialist ideals can be great, but sometimes have other problems like I noted above.  At large, I dun think its a good fit for USA, even if it welled liked in Europe(who are struggling with its high cost).

I'm certainly happy in the least that we have some new leadership as well.
On the other hand, I do have concerns with some of his comments.  Particularly, "bankrupt" the coal industry and a civilan national security force thats "just a powerful, just as strong, just as well funded" as the military.  the former was likely taken out of context(I'm hoping) while the latter leaves me confused and only leaves me thinking of a private army or something(there isn't add info on those comments that I'm aware of).
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #111 on: November 05, 2008, 06:44:33 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly. Most of you are students so I will phrase it this way. How would you like if your good grades like you 4.0 or 3.0 gpa were shaved down to 2.0 and given to other students with bad grades so they could also be 2.0. How is that Right?

Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #112 on: November 05, 2008, 06:59:42 pm »
my cousins  founded a Moshav in Israel

Where? 8D Which one?


You know, I don't get the whole socialist deal. I mean, people argue that Obama is a socialist and that's a reason why to not like him. First of all, I was raised rather in support of socialism. or more like... not against it. I don't see how it's a bad thing. I do think that it won't work though. It's a good idea in theory, but people are selfish so it doesn't work in a large society.


Also, about finding alternative energy sources...Like Seraph said, all the current possibilities of nuclear, wind, solar (...and water) power ALL have their pros and cons. This is why it is such a struggle. xD


I'm pretty happy that Obama won too.
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly. Most of you are students so I will phrase it this way. How would you like if your good grades like you 4.0 or 3.0 gpa were shaved down to 2.0 and given to other students with bad grades so they could also be 2.0. How is that Right?
Everyone passes, though.

Thing is, socialism ensures that no one dies because of a treatable disease. Your analogy would have worked if everyone who failed just died outright. Socialism certainly doesn't work for luxuries like school. It works for necessities, like health and food.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #113 on: November 05, 2008, 09:00:56 pm »
wrong topic, don't know how to delete my post.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 09:03:18 pm by guitarherolover32 »

Offline soupisgreen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #114 on: November 05, 2008, 09:04:36 pm »
Socialism takes money from the wealthy(most of which are honest and hard working) and gives it to the poor basiclly.

I don't mean to be picking a fight or anything like that, but that statement really sounds like your saying the poor are not honest and hard working. Can you really think that the 5% of the nation that holds over 80% of the wealth is more deserving of a decent life than the rest of us? I realize that I've come from a very poor community and am bias toward the lower class but to think the poor deserve to be poor is something I've never heard.

And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like, I've seen the mutated deer out at the Hanford Reach, nuclear meltdown is not the only danger that comes with nuclear power.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.

That is true if you are trying to build a solar power plant but if you only require the average amount of power to power a home, a few solar panels on the roof will do you just fine.

And to try to stay remotely on topic I am very happy that Obama won.

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #115 on: November 05, 2008, 09:04:54 pm »
And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like,
I agree with this. Wikipedia isn't the most accurate and shouldn't be used for a primary source, much less the only source. If you can find another reliable source that says the same as Wikipedia, then you can use it all you want, but as it stands you can't believe everything you read on the internet, much less Wikipedia.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #116 on: November 05, 2008, 09:07:29 pm »
And on the issue of nuclear power, you can provide all the Wikipedia links you like,
I agree with this. Wikipedia isn't the most accurate and shouldn't be used for a primary source, much less the only source. If you can find another reliable source that says the same as Wikipedia, then you can use it all you want, but as it stands you can't believe everything you read on the internet, much less Wikipedia.

With all due respect the wiki link was pretty accurate. Not saying that all of its entrys are, but that one was otay. :)
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #117 on: November 05, 2008, 09:08:29 pm »
Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?
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Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #118 on: November 05, 2008, 09:17:09 pm »
Quote
Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?

I am watching this thread now.  Keep it civil or I will lock it.  As for keeping Kumoricon and politics separate, this is the spam board.  It is for any off topic thing that people want to post about and I will not lock the thread based on that. 

Offline soupisgreen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #119 on: November 05, 2008, 09:30:34 pm »
There isn't any fighting, yet just a political discussion. Political discussions by nature are always somewhat heated. I do hope it can stay civil and not get locked. I enjoy seeing the views of others even if they do not agree.

On the issue of poverty, I know plenty of people that work there entire lives and barely squeak by with the bare minimums. Yes capitalism allows economic advancement but when you need to eat and to feed your family that comes before all else. Those who are truly impoverished never get to see anything close to such opportunity. They have to work any job they can find just to survive.

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #120 on: November 05, 2008, 09:36:33 pm »
 :-\ Well, thank you.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #121 on: November 05, 2008, 09:41:07 pm »
Re: Chernobyl video game-- woah-- If the goal, and effect, is for those who play to realize the inescapable dangers of the nuclear Pandora's Box, then I approve. Otherwise, no one, imho, should profit nor gain pleasure from others' intense suffering. Please tell me more about this.

Re: My cousins' Moshav. Mevo Modi'in, aka, "The Hippie Chassid Moshav". Used to be a commune in Berkeley, "The House of Love & Light." Thanks for asking. They host any visitors on Shabbat! Anyone going to Israel, let me know!

Re: Mutated deer-- I hadn't heard but am not surprised.
Anyone heard of "Downwinder syndrome"? --Folks downwind from nuclear testing sites and nuclear power sites (and some other types of corporate-polluted sites, often deliberately hidden from regulators and/or overlooked by them because of bribes or political connections) having vastly more birth defects, miscarriages, stillbirths, infertility, and cancers? Think Love Canal ('70s real epidemic of environmental toxins causing mass medical problems), Silent Spring (Rachel Carson I think? book-70s), Erin Brockovitch (true story, made into a movie starring Julia Roberts, about corporate contamination of groundwater and soil causing mass cancer deaths and birth defects, them knowing about it and lying about it to their employees). Oh and of course Silkwood, true story about major safety violations and health problems for workers at a plutonium processing plant; when she tried to become a whistleblower she was murdered by someone from the nuclear industry, movie starring Cher and Meryl Streep.

Oh and don't even get me started about logging--clearcutting having decimated not only the forest ecosystems and their many native species, but thereby the ability of trees to help prevent global warming (e.g., absorbing C02, yielding oxygen, providing shade, preventing erosion). Not to mention that if logging had been done sustainably in the NW instead of clearcutting there would've been much less job loss....
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #122 on: November 05, 2008, 09:52:22 pm »
Re: Chernobyl video game-- woah-- If the goal, and effect, is for those who play to realize the inescapable dangers of the nuclear Pandora's Box, then I approve. Otherwise, no one, imho, should profit nor gain pleasure from others' intense suffering. Please tell me more about this.

Re: My cousins' Moshav. Mevo Modi'in, aka, "The Hippie Chassid Moshav". Used to be a commune in Berkeley, "The House of Love & Light." Thanks for asking. They host any visitors on Shabbat! Anyone going to Israel, let me know!

Re: Mutated deer-- I hadn't heard but am not surprised.
Anyone heard of "Downwinder syndrome"? --Folks downwind from nuclear testing sites and nuclear power sites (and some other types of corporate-polluted sites, often deliberately hidden from regulators and/or overlooked by them because of bribes or political connections) having vastly more birth defects, miscarriages, stillbirths, infertility, and cancers? Think Love Canal ('70s real epidemic of environmental toxins causing mass medical problems), Silent Spring (Rachel Carson I think? book-70s), Erin Brockovitch (true story, made into a movie starring Julia Roberts, about corporate contamination of groundwater and soil causing mass cancer deaths and birth defects, them knowing about it and lying about it to their employees). Oh and of course Silkwood, true story about major safety violations and health problems for workers at a plutonium processing plant; when she tried to become a whistleblower she was murdered by someone from the nuclear industry, movie starring Cher and Meryl Streep.

Oh and don't even get me started about logging--clearcutting having decimated not only the forest ecosystems and their many native species, but thereby the ability of trees to help prevent global warming (e.g., absorbing C02, yielding oxygen, providing shade, preventing erosion). Not to mention that if logging had been done sustainably in the NW instead of clearcutting there would've been much less job loss....

Certainly gay marriages are worse than all that, right?

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #123 on: November 05, 2008, 09:59:13 pm »
The Chernobyl game is called S.T.A.L.K.E.R: the Shadow of Chernobyl. I never actually got to play but it's a sci-fi FPS. You can try to find info about it cause I don't really know anything about it except that it took like 10 years to make.

Can someone, like, block this? I want to keep Kumoricon and politics separate. I have such a nice view of Kumoricon and I don't want to see any bitter fights break out.

Seriously. Please?

OK this is kind of bugging me a little bit, if you like kumoricon and you don't like politics, why come in here? Politics+democrat+republican=heated debate. No one is harming you by arguing a little. Politics affects everything and it's not right to block it just because people are arguing.

Certainly gay marriages are worse than all that, right?

Well, considering people believe you're going to hell if you are gay but not if you polute the planet then yes, being gay is just about the worst you can get, hopefully this doesn't get blown out of proportion though.

Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #124 on: November 05, 2008, 10:37:21 pm »
So I hear, global cooling is worse than global warming.

That's cool about the moshav, Rem.  :D

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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2008, 11:21:41 pm »
@Deviant Spider
I agree with your sentiment on the new president and Mccain's speech.  I didn't vote for Obama myself, but I'll wait to see if he will be a great leader or not.

Now I"m not too knowledge about whole issues on power, so I could mistaken as I say this.  
personally, I think Chernobyl isn't a good example of the negatives of nuclear mainly in that is a extreme case that is very unlikely to happen in the US.  To my knowledge, we have far stricter safety standards then the Soviets had at that time.  And next gen Nuclear power looks to be even safer, to the point of nearly meltdown proof I believe.  And France does get 77% of their power from Nuclear power plants as well yet I haven't heard of them having any problems(admittly, that could because of ignorants).  Of course, the nuclear waste still remains a issue and even if we get practial fusion, radioactive waste will still be a problem that will have to be figured out.

The main problem with wind and solar is they require a very large amount of land area in order to provide a meaningful amount of power.  I remember reading one new article where the building of a wind power mills was blocked by enviromental groups.  there is problems of a large set up costs as areas good for making wind power are far from places that need it, which means building more power lines and substations.  Solar cells are rather expensive to make as well.

I dun have a strong favour for one or the other as all of them have pro and cons.  

Has nothing to do with Obama, but on the other running topic. (maybe we should start a thread on energy?) I see Nuclear (waste disposal a problem, and possibility of radiation and ground water contamination), Wind farms (take large open areas to operate and are unsitely), and Solar (expensive to implement and not effective at night.) mentioned.  What about geothermal, and tidal?  We are located in what is known as "the ring of fire" in short we gots dem volcano thingies everywhere!  Now if you dig yourself a really deep hole near a volcano... then you divert water into it... you get yourself a geyser.  Stick a geothermal generator over it and you have clean power.  a tidal generator operates off of tidal currents.  Unless the moon stops circling the earth I don't think we have to worry about that source of power stopping anytime soon.  Tidal generators may have some impact on aquatic habitats.  I feel that these problems can be solved if we humans actually attempted it.  Oh and I am all in favor of methane as a fuel source for vehicles.  You produce it by throwing vegetable matter into a box and sealing it up.  Commonly refered to as compost.  The gas itself is flamable and capable of operating a motor vehicle that has a carborator and a $100 adaption kit.  Of course the automobile industry hasn't thought of this one yet.  They are going for hydrogen, propane, and bio diesel.  I saw a video in my Jr. High shop class back in 1975 or 76 about a guy in Britain that was running his car off of pig and chicken manure  All the cows in the US probably belch enough methane every day to run a large city for a day.  Cow Power isn't a new idea.  The Short Mountain landfill South of Eugene has a methane generator that puts out enough power for 1000 homes.  That is from just a landfill.  Fuel for thought.

Oh... Yea! Obama won!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:58:48 pm by Wuntvor »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2008, 11:43:03 pm »
I am going to echo Kalira's statement.  Keep it civil please.  Most of you know the difference between constructive and destructive comments/criticism, and all of us, moderators and normal forumgoers alike need to be aware of this.
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Offline megchan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2008, 09:09:59 am »
I don't mean to be picking a fight or anything like that, but that statement really sounds like your saying the poor are not honest and hard working. Can you really think that the 5% of the nation that holds over 80% of the wealth is more deserving of a decent life than the rest of us?

Do you think that the lower class isn't able to have a good life like the 5% of the nation? Everyone in the United States has the same chances for success. My grandfather came from a household of 8 kids during the great depression to run the largest wholesale logging company in the United States.

Anyone can become anything here in the US. Someone from a much less fortunate family could easily come in and take the job that I wanted at Google, anything could happen.

This doesn't have much to do with Obama....

BUT, if I can put my two cents of sociology in here, although everyone would like to believe the rags-to-riches story of the American Dream (which does happen for some people), the fact is, there is no way that EVERYONE can achieve this. Institutions and society keep people stratified (intentional or not). Equal opportunity is something that does not exist in America (or really anywhere else in the world).
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2008, 09:43:33 am »
Thanks for the info about the Chernobyl game, the interest in the Moshav, the info re geothermal and tidal prospects. I was just reading last night in In Good Tilth (a magazine a friend of mine used to edit, which is by/for/about organic farmers and their innovations). First they were talking about how global warming will devastate / has already started to devastate, agriculture, and in particular, agriculture performed without bowing to the pressures from the petrochemical industries--yeah those pesticides and herbicides are often made with leftovers from oil refining, how disgusting is that? Some examples, 70 degree days in March followed by 40 degree days means crops start to grow as though it were May, then get too cold and die or get weakened to the point that they become susceptible to crop diseases; for example there couldn't be organic raw almonds this year in California because some pasteurization-like process was ordered because of mass fungal infection of crops because of temperature fluctuations. Second they were talking about developing new biofuels from agricultural leftovers, such as becoming able to make ethanol out of crops other than corn, and making biodiesel out of new materials, and even their finding some way to use leftover blueberry juice for something....anything getting diverted from the landfill is generally a good thing....

Beyond how obvious it is that there are tons of other materials for building habitats (most sustainably cobb and strawbale). It's flat out dishonest to imply innocence on the part of Big Lumber. Oh and given that I spent years supporting tree sits and road blockades to help protect ancient forest ecosystems I darn well verify that ecosystems are ruthlessly destroyed. There is no comparing loss of 1000 or 500 year old intact ecosystems with monocrops--replacing areas where everything is removed where there used to be maybe a dozen or two dozen different types of trees of different ages and heights and providing habitat for multiple dozens of bird, mammal, and insect species, with gee-look-how-great-we-are-we-replanted single crop trees, all the same age and height and species, inadequately preventing erosion and most emphatically not providing multispecies habitat. This is Oregon, there have been fatal mudslides from clearcutting erosion. There have been successful lawsuits as well as nonviolent direct actions for protection of endangered species decimated by clearcutting. Everyone has had the experience of noting where lovely woods become revolting ugly bald patches. We're talking lands in the public trust, as well as private acreage. BLM. Forest Service. Army Corps of Engineers areas. Clearcuts, nothing left. Oh and let's not forget that some of the worst atrocities in terms of attempts to destroy intact ancient ecosystem have involved verified ARSON BY LOGGING INTERESTS, most famously the area we were able to save after a couple years of unprecedented direct action plus lawsuits, at Warner Creek. But even if everything ever logged by any individual or company were done sustainably, the rendering of such precious ecosystems into products for sale has done great damage in terms of polluting of air and of water. Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

So what's the connection back to Obama?
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').
(b) He is savvy about Environmental Racism, i.e., gee guess where things like toxic waste dumps and incinerators are disproportionally placed, in areas of poor disenfranchised people of color. There's a great class on this topic at U of O btw, as well as one at U Michigan, check out its textbook by Bunyan Bryant as a starting point, he's a great prof.
(c) I'm personally praying he gives Gore some kind of position in the Interior so the person who most made the public aware of the TRUTH of global warming and who intimately knows White House politics can be in a position to directly help shape administrative policy and law.
(d) When he changes how health care is available in this country, he plans to remove exclusions for "pre-existing conditions". So, for example, the vast increases in asthma in the past decade-- much of which is directly caused be vast decreases in air quality-- much of which is directly caused by evil corporations cognizant that they are creating the pollution, but trying to buy their way out of responsibility for it (much like how Big Tobacco paid lobbyists to lie and manipulate and bury studies proving how deadly it is--check out the satire thereof 'Thank You for Smoking' with Aaron Eckhart) --much of which (see Environmental Racism, above) is disproportionately affecting young Black kids and other kids of color in urban areas. No longer would an unscrupulous moneyhungry insurance company be able to decline covering those kids for their environmentally-derived illness. Oh and yeah given that I was a medical social worker for 7 years and had to help folks adjust to fatal cancer diagnoses (and help them hook up with class action lawsuits about such diagnoses) that they got from their jobs such as mesothelioma from working with asbestos or black lung from mining, yeah, I darn well do know what I'm talking about.

I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

But believe what you will; THANK G-D (as each individual chooses to define for her/his-self what they think of as divinity, if anything/anyone) that "the American people have spoken" and we have a real shot at saving at least parts of the planet and at least parts of the population poisoned by the environment through corporate-government complicity.

By government complicity I not only refer to the notorious Republican deregulations, and lobbyists, and corporate kickbacks--but also to the incontrovertible fact that THE U.S. MILITARY IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST POLLUTER. This was something I hadn't known until I was taking Bryant's class during the 1st Gulf War under the 1st Bush (deja vu all over again now eh?) and studying, and making a coursepack for future U of Michigan classes about, the Environmental Effects of the Gulf War. Particularly the DELIBERATE SETTING AFIRE OF OIL WELLS.

So, again, how does this relate back to Obama?
(a) He will pull us out of the Vietnam-like debacle in Iraq a whole lot quicker and cleaner than McCain would've. And given Biden's own son just deployed there, our VP will have personal investment in protecting the soldiers during that process.
(b) He does not have the ties to Big Oil development that Palin does, pushing for destroying the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in the name of oil dependence.
(c) He will urge CONSERVATION like Carter. (I remember when it was the national standard to keep a thermostat no higher than 68 in winter and no cooler than 72 in summer......)
(Yes I know Carter was pro-nuclear-energy but that was from ignorance, the major catastrophes hadn't manifested yet. And he was a humanitarian and a pacifist and promoted middle-east peace, still does.)

Now for Tanis's savvy point--*****Sees red at all homophobes***** I have friends who are in gay marriages, lesbian marriages, multi-person marriages, and even marriages in which one party has gone through gender reassignment. I pray for them that the California measure makes it to the Supreme Court and is thrown out as unconstitutional. All people should be honored for loving whomever they love. Given that Obama specifically said the words "gay and straight" in his acceptance speech (though not going so far in a debate as to support gay marriage) I think he will work towards at least strengthening anti-hate-crime legislation and towards things such as equal rights to visit partners in hospitals. More sad still is I think it was Arkansas? That just eliminated the rights of unmarried couples (emphasizing gay and lesbian, but of course hets will be affected by this, too) to adopt kids or raise foster kids. Two of my best friends in high school were sisters whose mom was in a lesbian relationship, I grew up knowing of alternate parenting households and I also grew up knowing many many kids who were beaten by or raped by het married parents. Who someone loves is not what makes them a fit parent. Obama had a Kenyan dad and a white mom, whose next husband was Indonesian. He knows multiracial families can work. And he knows that multiracial marriages were illegal in the Jim Crow South of the US until extremely recently. I can't imagine he's not going to at some level realize how equivalent the BS is between the current anti-gay-marriage malevolence and that families like his used to face (complete with murder attempts).

speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 10:05:20 am by RemSaverem »
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Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2008, 10:47:16 am »
Quote
I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

I completely agree with the above statement.

Quote
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').

My thoughts on this as that we really don't know how safe it could be at this point.  I am not arguing that it is clean.  Clearly it is not as is has to be buried underground for hundreds if not thousands of years for become safe again.  But as it stands now, we have not built a new nuclear power plant since the 70's.  Technology has undoubtedly advanced and I would really like to see some valid research on this.  I would still prefer wind, solar, geothermal over nuclear but i do see nuclear as potential better option then coal / fossil fuels.  Does any one go to Reed (they have a reactor so I hear) that could enlighten us? 

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Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

Another part of this not many people know is that in a lot of cases companies intentionally dumps stuff into our rivers because it is cheaper to pay the fine then dispose of it properly.  Really this is where government needs to step in and adjust the fines to force companies to be responsible. 

Wow, I am getting off topic here.  Let me try to railroad this back. 

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index.php
Quote
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.

This part of his proposed health care changes I thinks has needed to be done for a long time.  Maybe this effects my field more then others but in the tech world, here is how things go.  Most companies refuse to hire full time employees so as not to have to pay for any type of benefits.  Most temp agencies do not offer any form of insurance or if they do you are paying for it on your own.  The problem this this is these big companies are not using these employees as temps any more.  In the case of Intel They will temp you for one year, lay you off for six months, bring you back for another year.  I am really hoping the above stays true and will close these loop holes.  As it stands now many tech companies will not even hire direct anymore.  They will temp you for 1 - 3 years of no coverage before they will make you a full time employee. 

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speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.

Sad thing is I was waiting to hear gun shots as soon as he was elected during his speech.  I really hope it does not happen.  I think if he sticks to his guns we might really see some of the damage from past administrations undone. 

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2008, 11:48:55 am »
Quote
I think what we have here in this 'debate' is really about epistemology-- about what you consider valid sources of knowledge from which to derive your own opinion. To me it's a given that there's a huge difference between someone pontificating about what someone in their family may have boasted in self-defense and what they read on a Wiki that anyone could post to, without verification; and someone talking about what they concretely witnessed in their own professional life for multiple years.

I completely agree with the above statement.


Thank you.

Quote
(a) He plans to invest in SAFE renewable energy (it was McCain falsely lauding nuclear as 'safe').

Quote
My thoughts on this as that we really don't know how safe it could be at this point.  I am not arguing that it is clean.  Clearly it is not as is has to be buried underground for hundreds if not thousands of years for become safe again.  But as it stands now, we have not built a new nuclear power plant since the 70's.  Technology has undoubtedly advanced and I would really like to see some valid research on this.  I would still prefer wind, solar, geothermal over nuclear but i do see nuclear as potential better option then coal / fossil fuels.  Does any one go to Reed (they have a reactor so I hear) that could enlighten us? 

I do acknowledge that there may have been great advances in how plants can be produced and managed. I can also imagine that, under a McCain administration, there could have been such pressure to build quickly and such vast unemployment leading to pressure to hire quickly, that insufficient training might have been in place before at least some plants went live. Not that everyone working there would be Homer Simpson. But it was among my fears.

Quote
Chlorine and dioxin runoff from bleaching for paper. One of the reasons we're not supposed to swim in or drink from or eat fish from the Willamette--another reason to not eat fish, especially if pregnant is the poisonous mercury levels, but I'm not sure what industry that comes from), etc. Plus anyone who's driven I-5 past those obnoxious-smelling towers near Albany knows what I'm talking about....

Quote
Another part of this not many people know is that in a lot of cases companies intentionally dumps stuff into our rivers because it is cheaper to pay the fine then dispose of it properly.  Really this is where government needs to step in and adjust the fines to force companies to be responsible. 
I 100% agree both that this phenomenon occurs, and that that is among the many steps necessary to curtail it. (Anyone remember when the Cuyahoga River in Ohio CAUGHT ON FIRE because of dumping of chemicals from, I think it was, photo finishing processes?) Personally I feel jail or (when a waterway crosses state lines) federal prison terms are due for not only the hired hands doing the dirty work but even more emphatically those paying them to do so and those making the decisions at the top within the corporations to do so. Some rich older white dude in a suit who made millions while deliberately and systematically polluting should be left to the mercy of the less rich and not as likely to be white younger guys who got sick from the water he polluted while sharing a cell--maybe THEN we'd see some bigwigs think twice....

Quote
Wow, I am getting off topic here.  Let me try to railroad this back. 
Oops...I'm totally new to the spam forum. I guess I didn't realize that staying on a topic was important in this forum. Though, for my part, I did try to route everything back to Obama in my last post.

Quote
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index.php
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees health care.

Quote
This part of his proposed health care changes I thinks has needed to be done for a long time.  Maybe this effects my field more then others but in the tech world, here is how things go.  Most companies refuse to hire full time employees so as not to have to pay for any type of benefits.  Most temp agencies do not offer any form of insurance or if they do you are paying for it on your own.  The problem this this is these big companies are not using these employees as temps any more.  In the case of Intel They will temp you for one year, lay you off for six months, bring you back for another year.  I am really hoping the above stays true and will close these loop holes.  As it stands now many tech companies will not even hire direct anymore.  They will temp you for 1 - 3 years of no coverage before they will make you a full time employee. 
Totally with you on this. When I first started in the totally different field of working with adults with developmental disabilities, it was the unstated but widely known norm that managers were given kudos for structuring shifts to equal 29 hours--getting the most out of an employee while depriving them of the benefits that started at 30 hours. This was one of the many reasons why the first two agencies I worked for ended up going union. (Not an entirely positive change but did help somewhat.)

Quote
speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.

Quote
Sad thing is I was waiting to hear gun shots as soon as he was elected during his speech.  I really hope it does not happen.  I think if he sticks to his guns we might really see some of the damage from past administrations undone. 

Honestly I was glued to the set myself praying that that did not happen, kept revisiting in my head the coverage of the RFK assassination. A million or however many people in Grant Park, I've been to Grant Park many times for Taste of Chicago, fireworks, etc., it could've become total chaos, a stampede, etc.....The crowd seemed mesmerized and prayerful if anything. Like a huge joyous family reunion......Quite beautiful and moving, really. Chicago has tons of diversity but generally in little packets. I used to say growing up there, a good cab driver (as my grampa was, may he rest in peace), if you told him or her what neighborhood you were going to, would know who (what nationalities of mostly immigrants) lived there. Little Italy,   Ukraine Village, Greektown, neighborhoods definitely mostly Polish or mostly Jewish (West Rogers Park, etc.), Little Delhi (mostly Indian, Devon Ave area), I haven't lived there in a long time but still remember where the enclaves were, and even where the biggest tension was between the Mexican immigrants and the Puerto Rican immigrants (East Rogers Park). Oh and back in the day everyone knew what neighborhood to go to feel safe as a gay man (e.g., Lakeview) or as a lesbian (e.g., Wicker Park). Oh and Obama's own Hyde Park, that's like the rich part of the South Side, and the intellectual enclave of the city; it's where University of Chicago is. Well anyway, all this is to say: Take a town with virtually unrivalled diversity, yet still in ethno-linguistic or subcultural enclaves, and make a massive party peaceful and singleminded like that--I literally was in tears. Hallelujiah!

(edited to fix brackets)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:51:59 am by RemSaverem »
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2008, 12:16:36 pm »
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

Offline kalira

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #132 on: November 06, 2008, 12:18:31 pm »
Quote
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

I saw the box.  Really, much like a lock it only stops the honest man.  If someone really wanted to get the job done, I am sure that would not stop them.

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2008, 12:53:11 pm »
Quote
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

I saw the box.  Really, much like a lock it only stops the honest man.  If someone really wanted to get the job done, I am sure that would not stop them.

Wow. Tanis, thank you for that info. Makes perfect sense to me. And Kalira, sad but true, in fact it had crossed my mind that I had hoped the Secret Service had swept for bombs under the podium.

I think it's a given (in light of today's news and I thought I heard of a plot foiled early in the campaign, maybe even during primary season), that we're not looking at a question of *whether* there will be further intentions or attempts, but *when*, and *how they will be foiled*.
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Offline Cassiopeia

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2008, 01:30:35 pm »
I know this is late, but I agree with the statement about epistemology. xD
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2008, 02:28:56 pm »
I know this is late, but I agree with the statement about epistemology. xD

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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2008, 02:50:33 pm »
first I've heard epistemology, but I have to agree with whats been said as well.  As far as I'm concern, you never completely know if your sources are 100% correct and you're interpreting the information correctly.  And then you have to account for human bias(sometimes minor, sometimes major), both when you're interpreting and from the source itself, also blur what is reality.
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Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2008, 02:53:05 pm »
speaking of which just this morning my boyfriend saw online there was a plot foiled of 2 self-described white supremacist young men intending to murder Obama.
Ugh, people can be so ignorant, sometimes  >:(
Sadly, it wasn't a shock, either.
There will be many more attempts, most likely.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2008, 03:56:23 pm »
While you were watching your television, you were missing one thing that was seamlessly edited out: Obama was standing inside of a bullet-proof glass box.

Yeah, its sad that of all the people we could have for a president the one we chose will need so much protection from within our own country.

I dont mind close minded people as they create another aspect of our country, but hating a man in this day and age just cause he is black is so heathen. Weve come a long way from the dark ages of slavery.

I do agree with Tanis. Its much more easy to justify homophobia through religion, verses hatred of a race. And a huge part of our country is very religious.  Homosexuals still have a ways to go to win the same rights. Its a sad reality. But one that I feel we will ultimatly win in the long run. Just like any other minority
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:54:33 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2008, 07:47:16 pm »
I agree with all 3 of your posts.
*sigh*
I can't help but lament the irony that the folks so keen on justifying illegal wars and invasions of other countries in part because they are Muslim theocracies, want to turn around and contrive psuedo-theocracy here, i.e., have government decisions and laws be derived from one faction of one religion......as though they conveniently forget that this nation was founded by and for folks *escaping* religious persecution and imposed dogma....
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2008, 08:05:52 pm »
personally, the number one thing I lament is how hard it can be sometimes to have a polite discussion on politics.  I can understand emotions running high, as the same happens to me, which I hope everyone to take a moment away from the subject to calm themselves down(which I also try to do).
The worse case of it is what really worries me personally.  I consider myself a conservative(technically incorrect, but simplest answer) and Republican, but I usually very weary/nervous about mentioning this as there are people out on both sides of the political fence that can be very discrimatinating or worse, very hostile.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2008, 10:00:00 pm »
Gee, I guess I missed something by going to Portland to be with my mother on election night. She won too by the way. Hood River/Sandy are now safe! lol!

Those were good speeches by both candidates.

Talk radio has been breaking Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment so much, it's no wonder McCain lost. The GOP has lost its' way big time. R.R. must be rolling in his grave. And they have been whining and spewing poison so bad since, I cannot bear to listen. Basically it is not why I registered GOP. Look up Tom MCCall and Theodore Roosevelt, probably two guys who would not survive in today's GOP.

I am a Republican. I did not vote for Obama. I did give him $50 last year, when his candidacy was in jeopardy. Like I was going to just let Hillary in if I could avoid it.

Either and neither candidate could be great, and lousy presidents. Not hard to beat the last one, eh? It all depends upon whom the president-elect chooses to be in his cabinet, and what his party tries to do to him while he is president. We may have Pelosi and Reid try to be president, or maybe Clinton or Schumer. That scares me to death!

I wish I could find on C-Span what I watched today. They re-broadcast Michael Crichton speaking at a joint American Enterprise Institute/ Brookings Institution something or other. It was very good  to hear. Sorry that he's gone now. Basically what he was saying was that we are NOT doing science in a good way. We are basing policy on one lab doing a study, because it costs money to have 3 labs doing the same study. In other  words, we are not basing public policy to the same standards of ensuing good science as we ensure our drugs are safe.

It's easy to see who lives in Eugene! lol

The pilgrims tried socialism. That was the first year they arrived. The one that almost killed them that winter! The next year they tried capitalism. That year they had Thanksgiving!

Anyone care to guess the unemployment in France? Or any other of these socialized countries? It's double what ours is right now.

But, I do think we can do something. But opening the cash register to the health care field scares me silly! It costs the state of Oregon $900 per month to give me health insurance. Multiply that by 360,000,000! 900*360,000,000=$32,400,000,000 per month, times 12 to get a yearly number. =$388,800,000,000 Getting all our military out of everywhere won't cover that cost. You can kiss so much goodbye.

Oh, and which nation leads the world in medical research? It isn't any of the socialized medicine countries, not even Canada.

Ask Pieisexactlythree about the nuclear reactor at Reed college! They have one there. And did you know that all the US Navy warships that are nuclear powered are operated by 19-23 year olds on average? Yes, my co-worker and my boss were both nuclear submariners.

It won't be easy, but I do believe we can do something besides watch the world go to hell in a bucket. Whomever is in charge. If we are honest, use good science, and look for points of agreement instead of pointing fingers.

Another generation or two until we elect a woman?
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2008, 10:03:57 pm »
@jaybug
I agree with all of what you said. 
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2008, 10:26:00 pm »
Ooh, I just remembered this. Does anyone know where nuclear fuel comes from? Has anyone heard that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, at least not by humans. That is excepting zero point energy sources, of which we have barely begun to explore those possibilities. So would you believe that by processing and using heavy metals to produce power, that we cannot increase the level of radiation, but do increase the concentration of radioactivity.

If any of you know of half-life, how long do you think we could go back in time before earth is too radioactive for a modern human to live? I bet that we could not go back in time as far as the dinosaurs. And this may be part of why life only really began about 1/2 billion years ago. This being merely a guess.

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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2008, 10:48:01 pm »

But, I do think we can do something. But opening the cash register to the health care field scares me silly! It costs the state of Oregon $900 per month to give me health insurance. Multiply that by 360,000,000! 900*360,000,000=$32,400,000,000 per month, times 12 to get a yearly number. =$388,800,000,000 Getting all our military out of everywhere won't cover that cost. You can kiss so much goodbye.

Another generation or two until we elect a woman?
The only thing I'm going to comment on is the money thing and the woman thing. First the woman thing, I think it'd be great if a woman was actually our president and if you think someone shouldn't be president then, well, there's a word for that it's called sexist. How many people do you think wanted to not elect a republican and voted for any democrat except Hilary simply because she's a woman? more than I would want to know. Oh I'm not calling anyone here sexist because no one has said any flat out sexist comments, I'm also a male, by the way.

Second thing about the money, first of all, I like how you throw the ridiculously enormous amounts of numbers around like they are nothing but here's a video that shows a little something about the cost of a certain something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef_blCCBJp0

So if you didn't want to watch The Pinky Show, I'll give you the gist of what this particular video is about. In this video she basically explains how much a US B-2 Stealth Bomber costs to make. $1.5 billion, $1,500,000,000. So the first question I ask is this, do we need any of these bombers? I think we don't need a machine of destruction that can bombs places with impunity. Also, it doesn't say in this video but how many of these bombers do you think have already been made or are currently being made? you most likely won't know unless you work for the government. so what happens if out the money from making 30 of these into giving people money for their health? (Which I strongly believe is more important than a bomber) 30*1,500,000,000=45,000,000,000, there we go, a month of health care for everyone in the US. That sounds pretty sweet to me. but this is just an example of course, I know we are never going to stop production of our weapons.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2008, 11:09:47 pm »
Using the B-2 is a poor example I think.  Largely because that cost is a one time thing.  one reason for the large cost per unit is they also add in the cost of the R&D which is why you sometimes hear buying more would be cheaper. There is also the fact that only a few were be bought every year while they were built(btw, according to the air force website, there 20 B-2).  so its really 20 x 1.5 billon over span of maybe a decade or two.  so it wouldn't pay for 1 month of health care.

As another way of describing why I think using the B-2 is a bad idea, its like buying a $300 TV.  Choosing to not pay for that TV, doesn't mean you saved 300 dollars every month.  just a flat 300.

of course this doesn't account for maintenace and personal, but I would presume thats far less then 1.5 billon.

To be clear, I'm not saying we need the B-2, but just using it is flawed for a reoccuring bill.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2008, 11:27:24 pm »
Using the B-2 is a poor example I think.  Largely because that cost is a one time thing.  one reason for the large cost per unit is they also add in the cost of the R&D which is why you sometimes hear buying more would be cheaper. There is also the fact that only a few were be bought every year while they were built(btw, according to the air force website, there 20 B-2).  so its really 20 x 1.5 billon over span of maybe a decade or two.  so it wouldn't pay for 1 month of health care.

As another way of describing why I think using the B-2 is a bad idea, its like buying a $300 TV.  Choosing to not pay for that TV, doesn't mean you saved 300 dollars every month.  just a flat 300.

of course this doesn't account for maintenace and personal, but I would presume thats far less then 1.5 billon.

To be clear, I'm not saying we need the B-2, but just using it is flawed for a reoccuring bill.

I don't think they add the cost of R&D, I think it's strickly just the how much it would cost to get all the materials, but sadly, pinky doesn't explain it so I can't be sure, although she said "each". You don't have R&D for each unit built, you R&D, and then when that's done you just build them. So if she is just counting the parts then yeah but if it's also maintenance and personal then , you could subtract those, if they apply. but I think it's safe to assume that "building" means having whatever it takes to physically build one, meaning personal and man power. maintenance doesn't matter because it's just the building process, meaning, if you take that into account it would be more than $1.5 billion.

I didn't say that we would save that much each month I just said that not building those would get us (x amount of money). Yes not buying a $300 TV doesn't save you that much but that does mean you have that extra cash to spend on something else that's more of a necessity, like say food. $300 doesn't really compare to $1.5 billion though. $300 dollars you could use for yourself, $1.5 billion you could use for many useful causes, like feeding the hungry, providing shelter for people who have lost their homes, things like that.

I would never take anything the armed forces says and makes available to the public without thinking it's substantially more than they say but here's how much if there's only 20. 20*1,500,000,000=30 billion. How much good could we do with $30 billion?

btw, did you watch the video? also, I'm glad you think we don't need the B-2's (although I think they look sweet, I just don't like why they exist)

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2008, 11:49:15 pm »
I'm pretty sure it does.  I may be mistaken, but I know that they do with the F-22 which is why I presume the same is the case B-2.

as for the video, it just states it cost this much and questions the need for it.

yes its true 300 isn't 1.5 billion, but I was trying to put a anaolgy at what I presume is for most people would better grasp.  300 can still be put all of useful causes too like the exact things you just said, but it isn't going to suddenly let you subscribe to a needed service that is a monthly payment.
the reason why I say its flawed, is that you're appear to be saying forgoing a one time purchase could suddenly pay for health care.

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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2008, 11:50:47 pm »
Obama won.

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2008, 11:52:24 pm »
lol yes Obama did win and I'm still glad that he did, even though I think he's going to be assassinated, but I hope not.

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #150 on: November 07, 2008, 11:36:46 am »
I'm not even going to bother with anything I consider to be hype, tripe, or too immature (referring to the tenor of the post, not to the age of the poster), or uninformed or exaggerated to bother to respond to in type.

I'm really loving this pinky show thing and wonder who puts it on, and plan to watch a lot more of it, that's so far one of the real highlights of having been on this forum for all these years, is finding out about that.

For about a decade I was on the board of a national pacifist/anti-militarist organization (and still am the copy editor of its hip-hop magazine). Every Tax Day we present a Pie Chart that documents that generally over 1/2 of every tax dollar goes to present military expenses, past military expenses, and the astronomical interest on the national debt that is predominantly brought about by the military expenses. Comparatively tiny fractions remain to be allocated across everything that means the most to the majority of people in the world: education, health care, environmental protection.......

Meantime if anyone gets NPR, presently there's a discussion about Obama's transition process. I'm not entirely sure, but my boss thought maybe there's a press conference soon in which Obama will talk about his meetings with economic advisors? Try KLCC online if you're not by a radio.

PS Even if you don't want to look at any particular piece of military hardware as obsolete or as overkill, remember what Obama so rightly brought up in his informercial, asking folks at the town hall how many new schools could've been opened, new hospitals opened, new folks insured, college tuitions sponsored, etc., with the, what is it now? $82 million? spent each, what, week? in Iraq? For what? For Bechtel and Halliburton (the VP's pet project and funding source)? While Iraq has how many millions or billions in surplus and we're in economic meltdown?

Uh, yeah. It's so obvious.......
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 12:01:08 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #151 on: November 07, 2008, 03:30:02 pm »
@Mustash
we still have ICBM and submarine launched nuclear weapons.  There is also the fact that the B-2 is so expensive that both Democrats and Republicans had felt it was too expensive for it can do.  It may have been needed during the Cold War, but in today's enviroment, I don't believe it is.

@RemSaverem
Hoping you could clarify, but do you mean the military expenses as whole(the entire budget), or its operations around the globe(wars or peacekeeping)?

Speaking of Obama and the military, could you give me your persective on Obama's comment in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaAVJITx1Y
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #152 on: November 07, 2008, 04:56:47 pm »
The B-2 question, how long do you think the B-52's (bombers not the band) can keep flying? Buffs are already 50 years old. Put one way, they were flying BEFORE man walked on the moon. Anyone stroll up there lately?

MAD was a policy only with the Soviet Union. We currently do not have a MAD policy, as there are NO other countries which can destroy us utterly as the good ol' CCCP could have done.

Sorry, I do not have time to watch a video. "Pinky" does not sound a credible source to base my opinions. I may as well go to "Brain." The one a genius, the other insane!

Here's the rub. No one gets it all his/her way here. Not unless enough people voted that way, and guess what, they didn't this time either! McCain got more votes than almost anyone in history. Obama, just set the new record of total votes for a candidate. The senate is not fillibuster proof. Senator Reid will not be able to do all he wants without help from Republicans. He is just a couple of senators short.

Right now, I think an awful lot of things are going to be put on hold, military and otherwise thanks to the economy. And no, I won't bother placing blame. I think it is time to find ways to make America better, no matter whom you voted for. Republicans can get back in the game if they show they can do better, but won't if all they can do is complain and finger point.

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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #153 on: November 07, 2008, 11:21:17 pm »
We do need our B2 Stealth Bombers.

There is this little thing called M.A.D, Mutual Assured Destruction. It means that if one person in the world launches a nuke then pretty much all the nukes in the world fly and we're all dead. Many people think we're not in a cold war anymore but they are wrong.

If we let up on our defenses or decommission all of our nukes that makes us a very tasty target for many countries out there. The B2 is part of our defenses. Other countries won't attack us when they don't know where any of our stealth bombers are at any given time.
We already have let up on our defense.  The US is the only super power that does not have the capacity refine plutonium.  We decided to take plants down for safety upgrade and then moth ball them.

That being said, I guess we'll see if Obama wants to put money into Nuclear Recycling as we are spending so much on storing it, ya'd think that we'd be able to inovate enough to turn the waste into carbon emission free generation.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 11:27:06 pm by melchizedek »
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Offline StarryShay

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #154 on: November 07, 2008, 11:28:18 pm »
Obama won.
I know, right?
All my teachers keep saying. "Waah, Mccain should have won."
Wtf...

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #155 on: November 07, 2008, 11:42:54 pm »
Teacher for Mccain?  Something fishy about your school.
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2008, 12:10:18 am »
@ Mr_Mustash:
We wouldn't need this so-called defense if we didn't always piss people off. The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons. We've shown, probably countless times that we are incapable of handling our "defensive" weapons. Maybe instead of building something that can kill millions of lives we could build something that will actually protect millions of lives.

@Jaybug:
I understand a lot of people wouldn't take anything a talking cat would say seriously at all, but I think it's better to completely listen to someone's opinions(Pinky does state facts). Pinky does what she does because she wants people to know what really happened with certain issues.

as for more recent posts, teachers for McCain does sound fishy to me as well.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2008, 12:11:43 am »
I don't see whats wrong with teachers supporting Mccain.  but I do have wonder why they're expressing their personal views to their students..........
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Offline StarryShay

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2008, 12:45:46 am »
I keep telling them they're going to get fired. xD
But unfortunetly, I have a smal lschool, ad we're to short on staff to fire anyone.
Blaergh.

Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #159 on: November 08, 2008, 02:53:51 am »
as another point in favor of the military, its large navy and air transport assets aid in humanitarian operation which was particularly the case in the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake.  Germany had tried to lease Antonov transport, but none were available and had to resort to leasing C-17 transports.

as for possible hotspots, Israel's right to exist is disputed in many places(I even heard someone called for it to be disolved like the Soviet Union while in Portland once), particually by Iran and other Arabs.
China has repeatly expressed its willingness to use force to retake Taiwan.
North Korea is a wild card that could threaten South Korean, Japan, and the Western coast of the US.

To clarify my position, I'm not saying we just use the military, but rather as a last resort when diplomacy, waiting, or another peaceful option is nonworkable.
Personally, I disagree with Europe's position that the military should never be an option, but then I also be discontent with many conservatives who are too quick to resort to the military option.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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How 'bout a "Safe harbor" meet-up / come-out meeting
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2008, 07:04:18 am »
... for political minorities at Kumoricon?

Quote from: Seraph
thats why I'm usually weary of discussing politics.  sometimes I'm worried that mobs will form and attack me if I mention my political leanings.

As for weapons, my wife told me that one local Portland guns store sold TWO PALLETS of .223 ammunition since the election.

Lastly, most of the people who call for universal or unilateral disarmament ("The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons...") often raise a 'security force' to enslave the disarmed. One of my uncles escaped the Bolshevik revolution of 1917.

Me, I'm worried about recent news abotu the Dems going after 401(k) funds. I've been saying for 5 yrs that once the Boomers retire, having never saved much, overspent on bigger houses than they needed, and wasted on consumer toys, jet boats, etc, they will now be looking to loot those who WERE saving for retirement. They'll call it "Sharing."

As in: "YOU prepared, but THEY didn't and so YOU need to SHARE with them now."

So I put in less into tax-deferred stuff like 401(k) and so that I could build up at least some savings tax-paid Roth IRAs. It will be harder for "them" to raid the stuff I've already paid taxes on. That and beating down a 30yr mortgage down to about seven years. Watching the principal go down is like seeing the light at the end of a long tunnel draw closer. The banks keep sending offers to re-borrow against that equity, and I just ignore it.

My grandfather was a pharmacist in the 1930s; back in the 'real' Depression. He owned the building, and he was paying an extra $100 a month on his business mortgage, sometimes more. One day, the bank manager came out to meet him with his hat in his hands and said, "Would you please STOP doing that?"

If you haven't read them, here are two books to prepare for socialism run amok:
(1) "Atlas Shrugged," by Ayn Rand, a Soviet emmigrant - If you are now doing a job where you generate much valure and therefore get paid much more than the schlubs on the receiving end of all the government handouts, and you lose that job, the next job you should get should be one in which you only create the same or little more than the welfare level. Or cut you hours WAY back, so that you work two days a week at a brilliant, lucrative job, but have only the same taxable income as the welfare-level worker. If everybody starts doing this, then the 'excess' for the government to redistribute dwindles quickly. It is an effective way of 'going on strike' and collapsing socialism. This was how the USSR was eventually collapsed from within.

(2) "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexandr Solzhenitzen - What to do if B. Hussein's 'citizen security force' gets you. Basically, if government-control thugs haul you away for 'not sharing' with the proletariat, or for being 'politically incorrect,' (= political dissident in the USSR?)  it's not really about you. It's to scare the people they leave behind. The sooner you get past the notion that you're already 'gone' and never coming back, the better for you. The purpose is to terrorize your spouse and family, colleages at work, your neighbours, and your friends who knew you. One arrest terrorizes 25 people or more.

Batten down the hatches and prepare for heavy weather.
"No quarter! "
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 04:11:23 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2008, 08:50:27 am »
I don't see whats wrong with teachers supporting Mccain.  but I do have wonder why they're expressing their personal views to their students..........

Compleatly! I remember 3 elections when I was in School and the teachers were more than happy to discuss politics for extra credit. *If you watched the debates=extra credit etc.* But all of my teachers kept their personal feelings out of their work. They would play devils advocate with us and explain both sides. I remember teachers work strikes, but never something like teachers complaining about who our new president was...
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #162 on: November 08, 2008, 11:03:17 am »
*shrug*  I was only joking, really I'm happy that there are schools that teachers can speak freely and not loose their jobs.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #163 on: November 08, 2008, 11:25:26 am »
Obama won.

Offline makichan

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2008, 11:29:55 am »
Totally off-topic but I remember when we had a mini election in my elementary school (I was in first grade, I think). Most everyone voted for Bill Clinton like their parents did, but I voted for some guy that no one voted for. I thought he was very lonely without any votes xD
and I thought that it would cheer him up somehow if I voted for him. Haha.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #165 on: November 08, 2008, 07:30:27 pm »
Totally off-topic but I remember when we had a mini election in my elementary school (I was in first grade, I think). Most everyone voted for Bill Clinton like their parents did, but I voted for some guy that no one voted for. I thought he was very lonely without any votes xD
and I thought that it would cheer him up somehow if I voted for him. Haha.

I totally remember a mock election in my grade school too! My parents arent political at all so I didnt know who to vote for and I voted for Clinton cause I liked his name. LOL. No real reason.

I had a bunch of friends that didnt want to vote for either president candidate this year so they voted for Nader. To each their own I guess. LOL
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Other Candidates
« Reply #166 on: November 08, 2008, 08:16:19 pm »
Quote from: Deviant Spider
I had a bunch of friends that didnt want to vote for either president candidate this year so they voted for Nader. To each [his] own I guess. LOL
I have watched R. Nader for close to 30yrs, and one thing you gotta hand to him is that he has stayed on-message. He has not flip-flopped on any major planks of his opinions afaik. So he gets major, major points in my book for consistency. OTOH his very socialist & greenie-weenie and obviously I disagree with him on many of his opinions

My personal favorites were Ron Paul and Duncan Hunter. Ron Paul is a profoundly knowledgable constitutionalist; for example he is in favor of reviving the use of letters of marque for situations where Congress knows 'something' needs to be done, but they don't want to actually declare war. Historical note: the engagements where the US has declared war (by Congress) have resulted in (a) vistory, and (b) a rise of US prestige in the world, and also the opposite: the undeclared 'so-called' wars have generally resulted in loss of US prestige and very little clear victory and honor to the troops deployed.

McCain seemed too soft on illegal immigration. We already did an amnesty in 1985, and 'we-the-people' were promised at that time that that was gonna be the LAST amnesty.  When the fresh young Repubs swept into office in 1994 (?) they started to tackle illegal immigration the right way but major contributors to the Repubs include folks like the Marriot family and Walmart, who 'leaned' on these youngsters and derailed their intentions.

Duncan Hunter was a total USA-first kind of guy. He would have done wonderful things for  individual American freedom, like booting the UN outta here and telling the EU "hey you guys, it one of YOUR guys' turn to host these parasites." Or something like that. He also would have scrapped a bunch of stupid liberalist gun laws, and generally rebuilt the good ol' USA in the guise of many of our traditional heroes like Daniel Boone, Robert E. Lee, Eli Whitney.** And if it's to war we must go, he'd have done it according to one of our most DEVASTATINGLY effective generals ever: William Tecumseh Sherman. THAT guy knew how to take WAR to an enemy, so that they NEVER want to mess with the US again for a few generations.

** Let me add Louis Temple as an great African-American inventor. He invented the toggle-head harpoon in 1848, which revolutionized American whaling till the industry dissipated in the 1920s. (Petroleum products displaced whale oils.)

- G

« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 08:45:44 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #167 on: November 08, 2008, 11:11:36 pm »
For the record, I have very mixed feelings on gun control. I've volunteered for a couple battered women's shelters. I believe the US has statistically higher rates of death from gun violence (both suicide and homicide) and from gun accidents (such as the 8 yr old who just killed his dad who'd taught him to shoot) than most other "Western" countries. My friend's boyfriend in childhood was shot dead in a gang context. Yet I grew up venerating the valiant men and women and youth who took up arms in defense of the Warsaw and Bialystock (Jewish) Ghettos (against the Nazis), the French Partisans and other members of the Resistance--even the Jewish Sondercommando who blew up the crematoria in the camps....

In other words, while I have intense fear of what folks can do deliberately and accidentally to hurt each other with guns, I also have this fear of 'what if only the government has the guns, and then the government goes bad' (or the local government is good but gets occupied by one that is bad), left over from having a gramma who at age 3 had to hide in a neighbor's attic from murderous anti-Semites......

I do not know Obama's take on gun control. Guy?
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Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2008, 12:32:22 am »
We wouldn't need this so-called defense if we didn't always piss people off.

Even if we disarmed ourselves completely and everyone in the world loved us there would be some crazy nation (most likely Russia because of Putin) that would get angry at us (or decide that they wanted to be better than us) and turn all of the United States into one big glass nuclear wasteland.

I wasn't talking about only us, and if we never used weapons in the wrong way, then we wouldn't have nuclear weapons. Like I've said before, hunting for food to survive is not the same as creating a weapon of mass destruction. Cultures have proved that humans can live harmoniously with nature, and humans have proved that a lot of us like killing the planet.


The world does not need any forms of weapons, correction, humans shouldn't have any forms of weapons. We've shown, probably countless times that we are incapable of handling our "defensive" weapons.

It was the invention of weapons that launched the growth of humanity. Without the first very basic weapons (basically rocks) humanity would not have been able to kill the animals to feed itself and grow. Then with the invention of black powder, and eventually the musket/rifle, we were able to expand more quickly and leap into rapid growth.

All of the humans in the world will never be able to get along. There's too much difference between cultures and religions, which is great, but someone will always be pissed off at someone. The UN was supposed to solve all world conflicts and so far it's hardly doing it's job.

Yes but the weapons invented back then weren't weapons, they were called hunting tools. Also, us as humans really don't need meat to survive, it just tastes good and happens to have some nutrients. If you are eating a steak and it doesn't have any red in it, then all of the nutrients are basically gone or insignificant. Personally, I think the planet would be better off without humans in it and sometimes, most of the time, I don't like people either.

Maybe instead of building something that can kill millions of lives we could build something that will actually protect millions of lives.

We do have things that will protect millions of lives. It's called the worlds most powerfull Army, Navy, and Air Force; along with NORAD, USSTRATCOM and all of their resources. The world is constant stalemate in an ongoing nuclear war. Even if we have "complete nuclear missile disarmament" around the world someone is bound to keep some hiding where no one can find them. And it's not really that hard to build a nuclear bomb, any college graduate with a batchelors degree in physics could be able to do. (You could even build one yourself! http://home.clara.net/nybbles/oldestuff/vik/nuke/index2.html)

I bet that if you look at how many times the army was deployed to help people it wouldn't come anywhere close to the amounts of times it's sent to kill. Armies aren't made to protect, they are made for war, you want protection you train guards, people who's jobs are to protect the community. You go to any country where our army has been and see how many times we've "helped". Have you ever thought that if we never had nuclear we wouldn't have nuclear problems? Therefore, we wouldn't be in a "nuclear stalemate" or have to worry about anyone hiding nuclear bombs that aren't disarmed. Also, no one would know how to build one.

On a more recent note, That's why I don't believe humans should ever get weapons, any humans. If any human uses "weapon" for anything other than procuring food for them self and their family, it's a wrong use of that "weapon". Is A M-16 made for getting food? I didn't think you needed to shoot a deer that many times to kill it. All we need is spears, but if we only had spears, we would still use them as weapons against other people, because humans cannot wield weapons and never use them against each other.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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On RKBA, again
« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2008, 05:33:24 am »
Quote from: guitarherolover32
Cultures have proved that humans can live harmoniously with nature, and humans have proved that a lot of us like killing the planet.
One source of differences in thought or opinion on RKBA (a handy forum abbreviation for 'Right to Keep and Bear Arms') is individuals' worldviews, especially the difference between those who believe that Man in his natural state is inherently good, vs, those who believe that he is morally neutral or inherently evil to a lesser or even a great degree. So, weapons seem unnecessary in the ideal to those who believe that We Are All One Nice Bunch of Folks Underneath it All.

Others believe differently: that any community of humans includes a subset who would rather sate their needs by using their force to take from others instead of using their force (and possibly brainpower) to create their own value and trade value for value to meet their wants and needs. This subset can be opposed by the general availability of effective, personal defensive arms as a 'great equalizer.'

One writer has remarked that in the course of history, until the invention and widespread possession of an effective deterrent, no one had much incentive to produce more than he (or his retenue) could personally defend. To do so would invite a visit by a knight errant who would TAKE, by force of arms - which was in medieval times the basis for the force of law, and even jurisprudence. If you disagreed with your King for example, you could challenge the King's Champion, beat him in armed combat, and that would make you 'right.' Losing would make you 'wrong,' and possibly a bit lighter of a few bodily parts as well.

The development of personal firearms led to a greater sense of the security to produce in abundance, to manage larger herds and wider tracts of land. A knight was someone who did not produce goods or foods for himself but instead trained for years to master the weapons of his day while being fed by other's labors. But suddenly technology changed and he could be felled by a black-powder pistol wielded by someone having had only a few hours' instruction and practice, and not a great deal of upper body strength.

Anyone notice that the 'droit du seigneur' also seemed to fall out of favour with the rise of personal firearms? Peasant farmers and 'the working class' could easily have grown weary of passing Big Boys on Horses physically abusing their sisters and daughters, and effective personal arms that anyone could learn to use well enough allowed even the lowliest to successfuly oppose that practice. Social change!

Quote from: guitarherolover32
Also, us as humans really don't need meat to survive, it just tastes good and happens to have some nutrients. If you are eating a steak and it doesn't have any red in it, then all of the nutrients are basically gone or insignificant.
Evolutionary history shows the largest increase in cranial capacity occurred in tandem with the switch from vegetarianism to meat eating. Compared to the mental skills for tool creation and use, and for observing, understanding, stalking, outsmarting, and overpowering critters that don't really intend to to be your dinner in the first place - it doesn't take much brain activity to sneak up on a PLANT. Then later, we got to use our bigger brains to invent vacuum tubes, transistors, and eventually gaming consoles!

Quote from: guitarherolover32
Personally, I think the planet would be better off without humans in
Others of us prefer to live this life, experiment and challenge our place and destiny here, and to exist, survive, and if we may: prevail. Your mileage may vary.

However when I examine your willingness to perish or preference not to have existed here, then expanded to your wish that none of us other folk have our chance at life, then would it seem sound to link your opinion on personal survival with your opinion on RKBA?

If one may do so, then it would seem that hoplophobia is a non-survival trait.

Quote
Is A M-16 made for getting food? I didn't think you needed to shoot a deer that many times to kill it.
Of course, arms are also used for sporting and there is time-worn pleasure in improving accuracy at a distance. This is as old as two kids designating any sort of target and contending with each other who can hit it from further away - whether with rocks, darts, arrows, or a 750gr .50cal bullet fired from 2 1/2 miles out... All of this is morally legitimate sporting. So is shooting cans and bottles with a kid's first BB gun or 22cal. (And there's just something I find about plinking that flat-out outranks recycling.) And full-auto fun at a target range or other safe landscape is simply exhilarating.

Additionally, many people have a collector's interest in acquiring historically significant baubles, regardless of need. You don't need an original Picasso painting on your wall either, but a few people of means will spend millions to get one for themselves. Other people have a similar interest in firearms which look like or work like the venerable tools taken into historically significant battles, and make a connection with history, and with men and deeds they may or may not know. To hold an original Muromasa sword and know (or imagine) what it has been through - that is akin to buying at great price, one of the few remaining, operational Vickers machineguns from WWI. Or six guys in Virginia who take out an original Civil War cannon once in a while to see it work. Or watching 'Jin Ro' and dropping $45,000 for a real German WW2 MG42. Other folks who don't want a full-auto M16 may try the semi-auto AR15, to acquire the look and feel of the battle weapon, but in single-shot only function, which is still useful for testing one's accuracy at distance.

Although personally I don't hunt, I understand the desire to hunt animals with a tool that can relieve the animal of undue suffering by means of (a) delivering enough power to kill it quickly, and (b) able to reload quickly enough, even by means of an auto-loading or semi-automatic mechanism, to deliver a second shot to dispatch a wounded animal. I don't think anyone seriously hunts with a fully-automatic firearm.

Quote
All we need is spears, but if we only had spears, ...
There are many intriguing stories (more in SF but also plenty in anime) which use arbitrary restrictions on weapons as part of the setting. The easy way is a time before their invention, or simply without mentioning them as occuring in society. Other settings use generally accepted laws - you might be interested in 'The Compact' in the Darkover books - a planetary law that banned any form of attack in which the attacker did not risk an equally lethal act of defence from his intended victim. This meant that not only projectile weapons were OUT (guns, crossbows, catapults, etc.) but so was POISON, for example. However you still have the problem of the criminal element who decides to uses these illegal things ANYWAY. (If you've already decided to break one set of laws against, say trespassing and stealing, why stop at refraining from 'illegal' weapons?)

My wife recently read a fantasy book where they never invented chemical propellant firearms, but instead, the technology they had was such that the firearm took 2 or 3 minutes to recharge between shots. (I haven't read it yet, but I'll start it today, actually.)

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA on Gun-Grabbing
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2008, 05:53:19 am »
Quote from: RemSaverem
... I grew up venerating the valiant men and women and youth who took up arms in defense of the Warsaw and Bialystock (Jewish) Ghettos (against the Nazis).
To their great credit those brave individuals made the German professional soldiers look like complete fools. Urban combat by (or against) resistant, armed civilians, and how it differed from uniformed soldier vs. uniformed soldier in (cough, cough) 'civilized' combat, was nearly completely unknown at the time.

Quote from: RemSaverem
I do not know Obama's take on gun control. Guy?
Pretty grim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama#Gun_control

Maybe that's why we're in a 'get 'em while you can' mode...

"After being elected as President, Obama has announced his support for reinstating the expired Assault Weapons Ban."
THIS would be a complete cluster-foxtrot, because during the 10-year ban, you had pre-ban high cap magazines and weapons, which sold at RIDICULOUS prices, and ban-compliant 10-rounders. Then the ban expired and you got post-ban high-caps again. (and the fell from $75 to about $10.) So, if you RE-ban, then how will you tell a legal, post-ban/pre-RE-ban part from a now-contraband part made after the RE-ban? Do you have a headache yet?

Also it seems that the Dems were only able to make political headway into the rural/ranching country by going quiet about gun bans. If BHO tries this stuff I bet there may be a backlash against Dems in the midterm 2010 election...

... and then we get OUR FAVORITE: Stalled government by one party in the White house and the other party in Congress -> more mickering instead of needed action. 1994 here we go again!

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2008, 04:28:35 pm »
Some of you need to review world history a bit. Read Old Testament, say Samuel I and II. King David is about there. Talk about kill 'em all. And the Romans, whom, if they could not beat you, would sow your fields with salt, so that you would starve to death. They also invented decimation, arbitrarily killing one of every ten men, in order to pacify a place.

We should not take it for granted that just because most nations don't do these things, that all nations will not. There were rape camps in Bosnia. Which Europe did not wish to intervene in.

Also, look up at the Amish, and their belief of taking up arms.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2008, 09:32:23 pm »
Guy: thanks for the details.
Whomever asked about the pie chart way back: I haven't forgotten you and will try to find details for you.
Those saying nuclear subs are safe: Did you see the headline today about the 20 people suffocated on a Russian nuclear sub today? It also mentioned a prior incidence in which like 100 people on another Russian nuclear sub died...and the sub sank....what exactly happens to the nuclear radioactive material when it sinks in the ocean? (NOT a rhetorical question!)
This is why New Zealand famously refused the US Navy access to New Zealand's waters when Reagan "would not confirm nor deny" the presence of nuclear weapons nor nuclear power thereupon. Which resulted in Reagan kicking NZ out of the ANZUS (Australia-New Zealand-US) Treaty. (I was there years back and met with the Rotorua Peace Society as part of a term paper on the Nuclear Free Aotearoa movement for my Sociology of Nuclear Proliferation class back in the day.) (Aoetaroa is the Maori name for NZ. Maori are the indigenous people of NZ.)
Today's article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081110/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_submarine
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2008, 10:08:23 pm »
I'm sorry demon its just... I"m so in to politics.... This election ment a lot to me, we had full intentions to move to Australia had Obama lost. Also your witnising history.... this si the first black president.... your grand kids will be reading about this in school.

He is not the first black Preisdent.  He is the first President that has black heritage.  Remember, he's half white, so every time anybody refers to him as being black is denying half of who he is.

P. S. Either way, I'm just waiting to see how long it takes for him to screw something up, or until people realize how impossible some of his promises were.  Oh well, let's move forward for a better day!  ('Cause today isn't so great.)
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2008, 10:37:37 pm »
I'm sorry demon its just... I"m so in to politics.... This election ment a lot to me, we had full intentions to move to Australia had Obama lost. Also your witnising history.... this si the first black president.... your grand kids will be reading about this in school.

He is not the first black Preisdent.  He is the first President that has black heritage.  Remember, he's half white, so every time anybody refers to him as being black is denying half of who he is.

P. S. Either way, I'm just waiting to see how long it takes for him to screw something up, or until people realize how impossible some of his promises were.  Oh well, let's move forward for a better day!  ('Cause today isn't so great.)

True he is only half black but his apperance is what will make a statement to our minority groups. It would be the same with a half Korean president. He/She would still be an Asian minority.

Im willing to give anyone the chance to make things better. But I really really wish (No disrespect intended here) that people would stop focusing on the "He's Black! Yay Black President!" part and more on the "We have a new president! Yay for a new directon in politics!" I will be terribly upset if the only thing I hear about his presidency is his support for minorities, and not the change for the WHOLE country as promised. He needs to represent us all and not just one group. I hope to hear good things in the future.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2008, 10:41:29 pm »
I agree.  Irregardless of how much of him is black, let's not have that be an issue.  Let's see if he can do the job...
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2008, 04:26:01 pm »
Yo Remsaverem, isn't that why the French wanted to blow up the Greenpeace ship? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior You do know France is all about nukes, whether for power or protection.

Have you heard about any US nuclear powered ships having similar problems? I doubt it. I'd have to ask my boss or co-worker, except they can't talk about it. But I am sure you could read Tom Clancy and find out more than they would be allowed to tell me.

It is more radioactive in Denver than inside a nuclear power plant. Granite is radioactive, it comes from inside the earth where it picks up lots of radiation from decaying elements nearer the core. Think granite and altitude for increasing levels of radiation, which is why a long flight is like getting the equivalent of two chest X-rays.

So when does the left start whining about wind power off Cape Cod, again?
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2008, 05:46:19 pm »
Jay, I believe that when the French tried to blow up the Greenpeace ship it had to do with protests of nuclear testing in French Polynesian waters. If I recall correctly.
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Offline TanisNikana

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #178 on: November 10, 2008, 07:31:27 pm »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #179 on: November 10, 2008, 08:17:56 pm »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Tanis It has been decided by higher powers that this thread is open to discussion. Unless people feel personally attacked there is no reason to close the thread. It is in the spam area so educated debates are welcome as well. If people want to bandy information than there is nothing wrong with it.

*I talked to a couple Directors at the General meeting regarding this thread specifically. Just for clairification.*
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 09:09:07 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Soviet Subs
« Reply #180 on: November 10, 2008, 09:02:45 pm »
Quote from: RemSaverem
Those saying nuclear subs are safe: Did you see the headline today about the 20 people suffocated on a Russian nuclear sub today? It also mentioned a prior incidence in which like 100 people on another Russian nuclear sub died...and the sub sank....what exactly happens to the nuclear radioactive material when it sinks in the ocean? (NOT a rhetorical question!)
Soviet-era military technology is generally scary, but II don't think that Soviet technology accidents cast a black eye on the technology as a whole. The French and Germans have had nuke-power at sea for decades as well. It's all in tthe design - what's considered important vs. what (or who) is considered expendable.

The Soviet Socialists (back on topic re BHO,) considered most criminals and political dissenters 'expendible.' Rather than invest in chip technology to develop industrial controllers (such as those made by Allen-Bradley Co.) for dangerous tasks, they just assign convicts to operate simplified manual controls. Need an automatic feedwater regulator for your reactor? Set up a valve and a gauge with green, yellow and red pie sectors on it, and pay an ex-con (or order a convict) to keep the needle in the green. You can also save on nuclear radiation shielding if the purpose is to exact capital punishment through radiation poisoning. The condemmed are sentenced to run these areas for about 18mo, then transferred to some other gawd-awful pit to break rocks. When their hair starts falling out it's blamed on the nasty, poisonous rocks. Remember there are no MSDS safety sheets or 'right to know' laws when Marx or Stalin names you expendable.

Soviet submarines have a nasty habit of cooking their reactors from time to time. One older design uses liquid sodium to cool the reactor core, which is then exchanged with liquid mercury - the liquids separate like oil and vinegar - which is then exchanged from mercury to sea water in another intercooler. Again, the mercury separates from the sea water. Here's where King Midas gets the last laugh though: Mercury lives right next door to gold on the periodic table. As it gets irradiated, some of it turns to gold, bit by bit. The solid gold bits thicken the inside surfaces of the pipes, like cholesterol and atherosclerosis - until enough of it jams the coolant pump impeller, and then, well, "life gets interesting..."


Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #181 on: November 11, 2008, 12:22:32 am »
@ deviant spider-- thanks for checking
@ execs & mods-- thanks for permitting
@ guy-- thanks for (painful, scary) details

It is not my contention that it would be impossible for the US military to construct some nuclear powered sub or something that would be, *comparatively speaking* safer than those in the past or those made by other countries (or made by us but purchased by other countries--if that does occur?).....Rather it is that what's out there already could be unsafe, and that the more the US utilizes a type of product, the less credibility it has to try to regulate/restrict use or manufacture of such by other countries whose construction, oversight, or operation thereof might be far beneathe US safety standards....Plus I have no idea what happens to the radioactive waste from manufacture and operation of those vessels, even if they are safely seaworthy.....
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #182 on: November 11, 2008, 10:15:45 am »
Obama won, necessary sentiments expressed, lock the thread.

Tanis It has been decided by higher powers that this thread is open to discussion. Unless people feel personally attacked there is no reason to close the thread. It is in the spam area so educated debates are welcome as well. If people want to bandy information than there is nothing wrong with it.

*I talked to a couple Directors at the General meeting regarding this thread specifically. Just for clairification.*
Yeah, generally, people ask to lock threads not demand it.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #183 on: November 11, 2008, 06:38:17 pm »
According to my co-worker, who spent 20 years in nuclear submarines. There have been no major nuclear accidents, none that are newsworthy. The USS Thresher which sank due to flooding is still down there with it's reactor and all crew. The reason for no serious incidents or accidents is due to the strict training and design specifications demanded by Admiral Hymen G. Rickover, the father of the nuclear navy. See also Jimmy Carter.

San Onofre civilian nuclear power plant located between Camp Pendleton and San Diego, located between the ocean and I-5, uses liquid sodium as a heat exchange medium through the core. It does not later exchange with mercury, but with ordinary water, INDIRECTLY of course, as sodium and water mix explosively well.

Chernobyl was a reactor design the US did not pursue beyond the 1930s. Although graphite does absorb neutrons well.

So, what kind of dog are the First kids getting?
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2008, 06:56:21 pm »
So, what kind of dog are the First kids getting?

I would laugh so hard if it was a poodle or chihuahua or something like that. Somehow I think feel like the first dog should be a protective dog, even though they have enough secret service to handle everything. I am kinda curious to see what they get and what his or her name is.
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Offline Mentally Hilarious

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2008, 07:04:19 pm »
I'm glad he won, REALLY. But I hate how they say ANYONE can be a president now if he can do it. Its raising too many hopes. Specially for the hispanics than know no english.
Go obama, but dont think this changes everything or anything really as a matter of anyone having a chance to be president of the united states one day.


Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #186 on: November 11, 2008, 07:50:22 pm »
Hey, at least this Dem will have a DOG rather than a CAT, like the last Dem.

@ M-Hilarious: I like the ANYONE can be president factor. I think the same thing would have been accomplished had the Repubs successfully run B. Jindal. (Go for 2012?) And not with Palin; *Please.* How about Bobby Jindal & Ann Coulter? She should get involved in government at some level so as to become a viable pick. IMHO, she'd be a great proponent for 'American' values that I personally find important.

As for lack of competence in English, well, when I worked in Japan for 2yrs, I learned to speak and read Japanese. I certainly had no pretensions of running to lead Japanese nationals at any level of their government. Similarly, when I worked in Sweden I learned to speak Swedish. I think that if being incapable of speaking the language of a country makes it difficult to reach the highest levels of political command, well, that's a reasonable filter. The president must be a natural-born American, after all. (It's in the constitution....)

I also think that the ANYONE-can-do-it meme can be used to undo many special cheater-handicaps, like out-dated Affirmative Action penalties (which are essentially reverse discrimination, and therefore the same as any other sort of discrimination.)

One other challenge will be to maintain right to criticize, mock, or lampoon the President. The liberals have set a high standard of abuse, but generally they are inconsistent with the notions of 'free speech' and 'parody' when Their Guy is the target. Imagine:

- Obama countdown calendars?
- Bush was called a Nazi many times, on the internet and in print. What can we call Obama to an equal extreme, and can we retain the right to express such an equal invective, without being labeled a racist. That's gonna be an important issue to defend when we are criticizing his POLICY - not the skin or eye color, or hair-curl radius, or bone density of the human body bearing the name. We will make a crack on a policy decision, and you can bet the farm that the libs will say we only say that because of a man's phenotype. Sillly, isn't it? But don't doubt for a minute that statements like "I disagree with his policy on [xxx] and I think he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's incapable of solving problem [qqq]," will be labeled as 'racist' even though nothing in between the last pair of quotes cites the man's genetic composition or parentage.
- Can we expect the same level of strident mockery on SNL? Would Will Smith or Chris Rock do a send-up for us?




« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 08:08:57 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #187 on: November 11, 2008, 08:35:20 pm »
I'd guess that SNL would only do something funny, if the president did something funny. They would only make fun of Republicans.

As to who or what conservatives may use to deride Obama, hmmm Maybe Uncle Barack, or Barack the Bolshevik, although I bet Hillary would have been more Stalinesque and Obama more Trotsyesque, certainly after Trotsky was run out of town.

But, is it just me, or has the transition team been acting more moderate, and not so left as conservatives would have had us believe?

Speaking of whom, has conservative talk radio stopped whining and pointing fingers yet? I just can't stand their breaking of Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment. Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican.
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #188 on: November 11, 2008, 11:23:07 pm »
I'd guess that SNL would only do something funny, if the president did something funny. They would only make fun of Republicans.

Obama has already been on SNL...

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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #189 on: November 12, 2008, 04:32:04 am »
I'm totally stoked that Obama won. I'm not sure how much good he'll be able to do, but I think it'll be more than McCain would. Did anyone else see the first debate where McCain said would put a spending freeze on EVERYTHING but defense, veteran affairs, and entitlement programs? What is that? I don't know about you guys, but that kind of thinking scares me. And If you want my source here's the transcript of the entire debate http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/first-presidential-debate.html. I totally agree with what's been said several times in this thread, that either one of them could mess this country up more and either one could fix it. I just believe that Obama is more likely to have good effects rather than bad.  But only time will tell.

As for nuclear energy, it is NOT clean by any standards. Anyone who says otherwise is either uninformed, misunderstanding facts, or being paid to say otherwise.While it is incredibly efficient, it is my personal belief that other energy sources are absolutely vital. Either that or we need to develop technology to house, refine, or reuse the nuclear waste so it is not a threat to anyone or anything.

Also, completely unrelated but I have to say it, irregardless is not a word. Regardless works just fine :P
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #190 on: November 12, 2008, 04:55:31 am »
Quote from: jaybug
As to who or what conservatives may use to deride Obama, hmmm Maybe Uncle Barack, or Barack the Bolshevik, although I bet Hillary would have been more Stalinesque
Agreed - there'd have been more Vincent Foster-style disappearances... I'd be unconfortable using 'Uncle
  • ' as a slur because I think that would give my verbal adversary an opening to cry 'racism,' but what I was talking about was predicting that people who criticize the president's actions, decisions, or opinions - making expressions of dissent with NO racial elements included - will be called racists.
Quote from: jaybug
Speaking of whom, has conservative talk radio stopped whining and pointing fingers yet?
I don't listen much to them, but like any other station their job is to sell advertising to a defined demographic, so the more astute of them will be tailoring their message to what they think their audience will find entertaining enough to listen through the commercial breaks.

'Irregardless' is a little grammar pet-peeve of mine as well. (But I'm not attacking whoever recently used it.) Sometimes it's part of a tendency to add an extra syllable to words just to sound like you are using longer words. Other examples are 'orientate' instead of 'orient,' 'position,' or even 'align,' and I once heard 'electronical,' which is now gaining in usage frequency. People have already been using 'electronic' in places where 'electric' is sufficient. (yes, another fun tangent...)

We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes. However, the physical volume of waste produced by a nuclear plant is teeny compared to the volume of emissions of a coal-fired plant of the same power. I always though that we could rocket the waste into the sun. Depends on how cheap it is to build a non-passenger rocket. Maybe we can use all those old, obsolete Titan missiles.

Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #191 on: November 12, 2008, 11:37:07 am »
We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes. However, the physical volume of waste produced by a nuclear plant is teeny compared to the volume of emissions of a coal-fired plant of the same power. I always though that we could rocket the waste into the sun. Depends on how cheap it is to build a non-passenger rocket. Maybe we can use all those old, obsolete Titan missiles.

I have one word for that.  Challenger.  I agree that sending all our waste into the sun would be a great way of getting rid of it. I just don't think a rocket is the best way to get it there (although it may be a great way to irradiate a large area of the planet if anything should go wrong).  Whatever happened to magnetic catapults and orbital elevators?   ???
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #192 on: November 12, 2008, 05:23:32 pm »
We were talking about nuclear safety, not radioactive wastes.
The discussion involved nuclear safety as well as how clean nuclear energy is. Radioactive waste is a by-product of nuclear energy and is the reason why I am not really supportive of it, though I realize the electricity I use every day and am currently using to make this post is most likely nuclear. But that doesn't mean I like it. If we could find a better way to dispose of waste, then I'd be all for it. I don't think rocketing it to the sun is the answer though. Like Wuntvor said, if something went wrong, which isn't even close to impossible, it would result in the irradiation of a very large area and I don't believe it's worth the risk. Plus the waste could have an unknown effect on the sun, as well as the rocket used to get it there. We don't know what'll happen if we start firing rockets into the sun. Plus, making rockets is very expensive if I am not mistaken. The fuel is incredibly expensive and it takes a lotto just to breach the atmosphere.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #193 on: November 12, 2008, 05:57:21 pm »
I remember the Challenger explosion.

I do like the magnetic rail-gun approach if we can impart escape velocity to the projectile (or 'torpedo.')
One other possible disposal site could be one of the smaller or more useless moons on any of the nearby planets. Let's just pick one.

If any of you saw the movie 2010; then you might remember the phrase
"ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT IO, ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE."

.... and probes sent there kept on getting fried. My first thought was, if "they" fry anything we send to Io, then its the ideal choice for us to use as 'the landfill."

Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #194 on: November 12, 2008, 07:17:07 pm »
........I gotta stop thinking in terms of movies and whatnot......that is a very good point lol. I keep thinking like Hollywood or whatever, "If you send something explosive into the sun, the sun will explode" I know it's stupid but I just keep forgetting how things really are. Just another example of how the media affects people....I still don't think that sending a rocket full of toxic waste into space is a good idea though. I am convinced that something will go wrong and things will eventually end up worse than they are if we start doing that. But that's just me, I'm known for being really negative and pessimistic.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #195 on: November 12, 2008, 08:37:01 pm »
Hmmm, where to start?

1. Powell's technical books! Because you are not getting my metallurgy text!

2. I'm still agog over transmutation of elements. Mercury into gold? Somehow I don't believe it. I could maybe see a radio isotope of Mercury releasing helium and decaying to cadmium or zinc, but not gold. maybe.

3. Atomic waste is taking the Navaho reservation and putting it into a smaller pile. Where do you think this stuff came from? In a factory in NYC? It was not pulled out of Bush's behind. Maybe his earwax. lol

4. The rocket to the sun better have a really thick layer of tungsten, and the rocket flying at a significant fraction of C, or it will evaporate before it even touches the corona, and thereby spewing everything back the way it came from in the solar wind. Oh, the solar wind is radioactive too! But so are the Van Allen belts!

5. It's Europa, no Io! Io is for too radioactive due to the presence of Jupiter. Humans will not be getting to land in Io, or within the orbital distance of io from Jupiter in our lifetimes. It would be similar to putting a dog in the microwave to dry it. Cockroaches may live, but not people. And even if they did, they better not try to have children, at best.

I can't wait until Hank Paulson stops trying to spend $700 billion! I think he is doing his Wall street pals favors, but not Joe six-pack taxpayer.

Did anyone else see Robert Reich as part of Obama's transition team? I hope he does another stint as labor secretary! I think he is freakin' awesome! I got him to autograph his Locked in the Cabinet book for me, and no I did not sell it on E-Bay!
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #196 on: November 12, 2008, 09:51:49 pm »
Atomic waste is taking the Navaho reservation and putting it into a smaller pile. Where do you think this stuff came from? In a factory in NYC? It was not pulled out of Bush's behind. Maybe his earwax. lol
I think I'm misunderstanding you here, what are you talking about?
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #197 on: November 12, 2008, 10:36:17 pm »
Much of the uranium and derived plutonium came from the Navaho reservation. It was mined there. Then processed at Hanford, and the other two of which names escape me at present. But one is in the Carolina's and the other in Colorado, I think. These were done like a lot of political things, fast and cheap, and out of sight, out of mind.

Anyway, uranium oxide, which is the raw material, is still radioactive. Processing merely concentrates the radioactive mass. But everything that comes in contact with that matter is classed as contaminated, so you end up with a lot of stuff. It may or may not remain so long, but...it all got stuffed in cheap barrels and buried.

Remember, this work was done by the lowest bidder! Nuclear plants have little to do with waste other than spent rods. It is the 3 places in America that process the raw material into fuel that creates the majority of contaminated waste. Utilities also need to be extremely mindful of lawsuits, as they could not afford the class-action lawsuit from any mishap, whereas you have to get permission from the government to sue the government. And when it comes to "National Security" issues, what do you think is going to happen

Does that help?
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2008, 01:09:19 am »
OK I think I get it now. So the dangerous toxic waste comes from creating the fuel and not from the plants themselves? That makes sense. I was unclear on the whole process. Thanks for clarifying.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2008, 08:40:21 pm »
Just think many of our nuclear plants are operated by 18-22 year olds! What, you thought the navy was run by guys Homer Simpson's age?
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2008, 11:35:35 pm »
For those who don't yet resent the Bush presidencies for deliberately obfuscating scientific results on global warming, or who still malign hero Gore as though we were exaggerating, here's one of the scariest things you could read:
(re: massive brown clouds across continents....)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_sc/as_china_brown_clouds

Oh and in terms of personal adjustments I walked to and from work and meditation today (a few miles) and have yet to use the heat in my apartment this season, and changed to the curly-fry shaped fluorescent bulb....any little thing helps....meeting in Eugene on converting cars to electric coming up in December....I'm hoping Obama will subsidize worker retraining and plant rebuilding to accommodate what I'm hoping will be a growing demand for electric cars. That could help more than a straight cash bail out of the auto industry....
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 11:39:15 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline Rathany

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2008, 11:43:24 pm »
Having lived in right on the edge of the fall out zone from the nuclear power plant that powers NYC, I am scared by nuclear power.  The be truly safe from metldowns, it needs to be safe from melting down even in the case of bombing attacks.  This may be possible, I don't know.

One of the scariest moments of my life was when the alarm that signals a nuclear meltdown malfunctioned and went off about 6 weeks after 9/11.  Since it was a malfunction and not a planned test, there was no crawl on the TV screen going 'this is only a test ...'.   My behavoirs are still affected by how traumatized I was by thinking that the plant had been hit and that my friends, who lived very close to it, would likely not get away in time.

We can't just think in terms of accidents.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2008, 12:01:14 am »
presuming things are as dire as they say, the auto industry is doing so poorly that they can't even pay their people's paychecks and utility bills.  a simply pay for worker retraining and rebuliding of plants may not be enough.
either way, Obama may have a potential problem as the enviromental groups want the money to have strong conditions for the enviroment which are opposed by the worker unions.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Saving the US Auto Industry
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2008, 05:16:34 am »
The Greenie-weenies are trying to do the same thing in Germany, with some loony-tune notion of a "max. carbon foorptint per vehicle." Porsche has told them to "go pound sand, that's not our market segment."

Reminds me of an old bumper sticker about whatever not being forbidden is mandatory. The dems are just as keen to take away rights and tell people what they SHOULD do as the Repubs - it's just that different realms of lifestyle freedoms get attacked. The Repubs try to tell you who you cannot take into a dark room under the sheets with you. The Dems try to tell you you're not allowed to drive a sports car, or that ALL must worship The Environment even when that's not part of your own religion. Obama recently floated the idea of (the "m" word) MANDATORY community service for schoolkids. Why not just let the people be free? (Answer from *whoever* is in power: "...because free people don't always make the choices WE want them to make, so we must meddle with them.")

The US Auto industry has several problems:
- They're not making cars that Americans want to buy, at prices other foreign companies *can* sell in this country.
- They're not being allowed to compete as openly in other countries as car makers there get to compete here. (Example: You never see any 'Ford' dealerships in Japan.)
- High gas prices last summer decreased most gasoline enginse sales, not just cars, so EVERYBODY took a hit in that sector.

I'll edit this later on (probably tonight) to expand on the reasons - meanwhile it's off to work.)

...Be back tonight...

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2008, 06:40:44 am »
I serously don't think the US auto industry needs to be saved.  The free market has spoken that car demand is way low due to energy issues.  The auto industry didn't respond to this changing market in time to not be on the verge of bankrupsty.

They should be chopped up and sold off like many other companies were.  I think it'd be ironic if some private investors buy up the scrapped electric car that we nixed here in the us in the 90s and made tons of money on them.  Big inflexable companies need to wake up an smell the coffee not get buffeded from their own poor choices.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2008, 11:10:39 am »
1st re cars:
I know there is a documentary out there called 'Who Killed the Electric Car'?
I want to try to track that down......

Meantime one thing Obama mentioned that I support is decreasing or eliminating subsidies for companies who outsource labor to overseas. There was some kind of record for job loss in October (which undoubtedly tilted the election the way it went), nearly a quarter of a million jobs lost THAT MONTH. And that counts ONLY THOSE JOBS THAT ARE KNOWN ABOUT. i.e. think of everyone you've known who's ever worked "under the table," a lot of that kind of employment is likely hurting as well....

There are tons of workers willing to work. There are multiple factories capable of running. Surely rendering those of utility is better than letting them go to waste.

BTW I switched from a foreign to a domestic car about 4 years ago to not be hypocritical on the subject. Took the bus, walked, rollerskated, and hitchhiked for the summer months between cars.  (Note to minors, hitchhiking is not a safe thing to do alone or potentially ever especially if female. I stopped as it started to feel sketchy.)

Now for Rathany's point. OMG I honestly had not actually thought of that. Wow insanely scary prospect.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2008, 11:52:52 am »
Obama has also mentioned raising the taxes of big companies, which will make them take there business overseas. Why would you keep your business here if another country would give you tax breaks? If Obama raises taxes look for more companies to move overseas.

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2008, 03:15:15 pm »
Higuma, corporations took their business overseas to cut costs and make more profit, not to dodge taxes. Bush was already giving the uber rich folk enough tax breaks as is. Plus they're already making enough profit that extra taxes wouldn't make a difference. It's not like he's going to make them give the economy %50 of whatever "spending" money they have. I can't see the amount going past 15%. If anything, I'd imagine that Obama would work to stop corporations going overseas, and I do believe that he made mention of that in his speeches.

Corporations going overseas means less jobs for Americans which means less money to spend on said corporations so everyone tanks. It was a bad idea in general. I think that's one reason, along with the mortgage crisis, why we're where we are.

I just hope Obama fixes the economy because I finally got a job and on my second day of work they told me to not come in because Coach corporate called for hour cuts.

I had only worked 4 hours. My second day was another four hours.

I'm currently searching for a second job in addition to "working" at Coach. Every morning I wake up hoping I'll get a call asking me to come into work.

It's been five days and no call. I can't buy anything because I don't have money so companies who are losing money have to cut back on hours and jobs. I think that's proof enough of the Catch 22 we're in at the moment.

I say we go back to what FDR did and create even stupid jobs where people walk around and carry red balloons to scare pidgeons off of buildings just to put money back to the people and back to the economy, not giving AIG another f'ing 40 billion dollars just so they can have resort "executive meetings" and super expensive spas.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 03:20:38 pm by lychee-twist »
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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2008, 06:05:15 pm »
How many people has it been now that have threatened to move out of america if blank does or doesn't happen?

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2008, 07:32:02 pm »
If anything, I'd imagine that Obama would work to stop corporations going overseas, and I do believe that he made mention of that in his speeches.

As soon as Obama does this I'm moving out of the country. It is totally illegal for him to tell companies where they can and can not send their business or jobs to.

If it is illegal (Just going off Mr_Mustash's post as I havent researched this myself) than I really hope that we can find a happy balance. I dont mind having overseas companies as I think it is good for many reasons, but I really hope that he can balance those outsourced jobs with some internal ones. I know many are concerned that "Too many" jobs are going overseas but we should, as a strong county, be able to provide adequte jobs here too. If Lychee's post was incorrect I hope this is what Obama meant, or at least something he plans on doing. Only time will tell. I know im currently dealing with unemployment in my household as well as so many computer jobs are being slashed in the US right now. It really sucks knowing that if we wanted to take a world wide "travelers" job than we could be more secure than taking an office job where we live. That and the fact that because SO many technical workers are out of work right now, many employers are lowering their wages. Its just wrong.

When is that "silver lining" going to appear in this raincloud economy? Soon please?? :)
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #210 on: November 15, 2008, 06:50:13 am »
The silver lining right now is only for the peopl that are well to do.  Some stocks are artifically low and if people with cash saved invest now they can make a huge sum when / if it bounces back.

Also, Housing prices have falled insanely.  However, because of the mortgage crisis interest rates are not so good.  So, people with the money to snag one of these housing deals as an investment (it's not like we can sell our house in this market so upgrading isn't much of an option)  propeties is a steal.  The market is resetting itself because of imbalance but people / banks that made poor choices because greed are going to have to take the loss and face the real value of their property.

But Higuma is completely right.  Passing tax hikes for international companies willy only drive them out of the US.  It'll have the opposite effect of keeping jobs from being outsourced.  At my company they had a plant in colorado that they could have easily upgraded with new technolgy (it was getting dated)  However, China gave a way way way better deal then colorado would have so for someone who is buisness minded the choice becomes rather obvous. 

If we want to make the US a play to get jobs, there needs to be competive packages to have buisnesses continue to invest here.  Trying to punish people for making choices in the best interest of their own share holders willy only drive companies out.

We are seeing this with the US auto industry, they have protected themselves right out of their own jobs.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 06:51:33 am by melchizedek »
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2008, 05:51:00 pm »
I serously don't think the US auto industry needs to be saved.  The free market has spoken that car demand is way low due to energy issues.  The auto industry didn't respond to this changing market in time to not be on the verge of bankrupsty.

They should be chopped up and sold off like many other companies were.  I think it'd be ironic if some private investors buy up the scrapped electric car that we nixed here in the us in the 90s and made tons of money on them.  Big inflexable companies need to wake up an smell the coffee not get buffeded from their own poor choices.
1st re cars:
I know there is a documentary out there called 'Who Killed the Electric Car'?
I want to try to track that down......

'Who Killed the Electric Car?' talks about the very subject of melchizedek's post.  Interesting choice of words there melchizedek.  Chopped up, is exactly what happened to ALL of the electric cars from the 90's.  Chopped up, smashed, shredded.  In short destroyed beyond all hope of recovery.  But hey, the good news is they started making Hummers instead!   ::)  Great decisions like that one, are why they are in trouble now.   ;D

@Rem - I have this documentary, if you want to see it sometime.

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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2008, 12:13:43 am »
asdfadghwgdfasdfa

When did this happen?!

lol jk.  Play Super Obama World.  Best game ever.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2008, 12:34:46 am »
Wuntvor: Definitely, if for some reason I can't download it I'll want to borrow and/or copy it.

How's this, I have a MASTERS and TEN YEARS in the field for which I applied for THREE jobs recently with my boyfriend, jobs that in the past I would've turned down, and we didn't even get a call-back from two of them. There is that much of a selective hiring field right now, because there are so many overqualified folks looking for work. I'm genuinely scared. Oh and definitely going to have to learn how to Skype to meetings, financially.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2008, 07:12:35 am »
Quote from: lychee-twist
I say we go back to what FDR did and create even stupid jobs where people walk around and carry red balloons to scare pigeons off of buildings just to put money back to the people and back to the economy, not giving AIG another f'ing 40 billion dollars just so they can have resort "executive meetings" and super expensive spas.

1) Something should be done about that AIG "taxpayer-funded party." Really.

2) The problem with make-work programs is you have two bad choices for how to pay the people doing those jobs:
   (a) Print up money. This causes inflation and makes everything harder for everyone else to pay, polus it erodes the value of people's savings so many who could have been retired and 'out of the way' of the job market now have to come INTO the market to seek jobs to supplement their retirement savings, or
   (b) Take money away from other people. This does much the same thing. We *were* going to buy a computer and some other electronic equipment, but we are delaying or cancelling the purchase now. Same with a bathroom remodel - we cancelled that project.

You can't always nail "the big guys" because when you do that you kill dreams of innovators -  their fuel is that it's POSSIBLE to GET really rich. I have 3 gas turbine patents I am sitting on right now, because "If I can get this to work" ... then what? Do I get *rich,* or do I watch the fruit of my risk and poking around at a machine shop off-hours and testing things in the garage on weekends - does that all get taken away so that some gets sent to starving kids in Africa, and so that 20 jobless people paint a rusty bridge? Screw that. I'll read manga on weekends instead, and if I lose my day-job, I'll be painting bridges for a while on gov't money. And the invention never gets its chance to improve the way energy is generated.

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #215 on: November 16, 2008, 07:20:21 am »
From an old e-mail I have on file, here's what happens when a 'tax break' doesn't hit proportionately.
(In other words, if you reduce taxes 1%, the $50,000 household gets a $500 rebate, but the $250,000 household gets a $2,500 check.
Then everyone complains that it's 'unfair' for the $250,000 household to get a bigger rebate check than the $50,000 household.)

Anyways, here goes:

--------

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

 Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the
 bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the
 way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
 The fifth would pay $1.
 The sixth would pay $3
 The seventh would pay $7.
 The eighth would pay $12.
 The ninth would pay $18.
 The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

 So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank
 in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
 arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
 "Since you are all such good customers," he said,
 "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.
"Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

 The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
 taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still
 drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying
 customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that
 everyone would get his fair share?' They realized that
 $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
 from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth
 man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the
 bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
 man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded
 to work out the amounts each should pay.

 And so:

 The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
 savings).
 The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings) .
 The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings) .
 The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
 The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
 The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 Each of the six was better off than before. And the first
 four continued to drink for free. But once outside the
 restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

 "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the
 sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

 "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved
 a dollar,too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

 "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get
 $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

 "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

 The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
 The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks,
 so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it
 came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
 important. They didn't have enough money between all of
 them for even half of the bill!

 And that, boys and girls, journalists, liberals, and
 college professors, is how our tax system works. The people
 who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax
 reduction. Tax them too much, or attack them for being
 wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
 Professor of Economics
 University of Georgia

 For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
 For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 11:48:09 am by Prinz Eugen »

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #216 on: November 16, 2008, 06:59:51 pm »
I go away for a couple of days and see this?!?

I more understand why certain groups want to control the schools, so as to indoctrinate, as opposed to educate the youth, ergo the future of the country. So far it seems we are getting bad manners, bad science, bad ethics, but we leave no child behind. Behind what?

Mediocrity is going to be the death of us. Look at the "rocket scientists" of Wall Street. Or about anywhere. Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, FEMA, DMV.

Have you ever noticed that schools built in the 60s and 70s are having to be torn down, but schools buildings constructed in the 20s through the 40s are being used, not as schools, but are not demolished? The house I had built for me to live in will not survive 100 years. I am sure the house my great-grandfather build at the turn of the 20th century will stand for another 100 years or better, if someone lives in it and does simple maintenance.

So does anyone but me think that thinking for the long-term NOW would be a good idea? I believe costs will be higher in the short term, but overall and in the long-term costs will be reduced.

Is this going to be part of the next administration, or will it be too much to bother with? Just keep it short and simplistic?
Have Fun

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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #217 on: November 16, 2008, 07:47:15 pm »
Jay,
New things focus too much on experimental technologies and modern styles.  Look at computers.  I bought my computer in 2003.  It was almost non-functional by 2006.  I figured out that I could sever it from "updates" and install a 5-year-old antivirus program on it and it would run games from its own era and start up in less than 10 minutes, but the fact that a computer has to be replaced every 2-5 years is ridiculous.  My Amiga 500 lasted from 1987 to 2002.  That's 15 years.  Even my PS2 has lasted longer than my $800 computer.  I got that in 2002 and it has less problems.  The problem is that we're obsessed with rapid progress.  We're moving so fast that we're driving blind, so to speak.  People build billion-dollar buildings out of untested alloys and polycarbons and they fall apart in a decade or two.  Large-scale contractors tear down sturdy brick buildings and make new buildings carelessly, where the plumbing stinks, the ventilation is too expensive, and there's nowhere to park the cars of the 800 people who work inside.


Guy,
That's a fantastic example.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #218 on: November 16, 2008, 08:03:00 pm »
So let's whine about the 2 cents added gas tax the governor proposed. Right, 2 cents after gas has fallen by 2 dollars. Keep your tires inflated!

If, the new monies are spent on bicycle lanes and such, there is going to be a problem. Why can't bicyclists contribute?
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #219 on: November 16, 2008, 11:45:33 pm »
I'd be happy to, but how?  Cars run on gas, so it's easy to put a tax on gas and make it go towards road maintenance.

We need a DNMT (Department of Non-Motorized Transportation) and:
-Bicycle Licenses and Registration tags
-Bicycle Insurance
-More resources for bicyclists (better bike lanes, more highway-parallel bike paths, covered bicycle parking, more bike routes, etc)
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline allstarsniper32

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2008, 06:26:09 am »

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

 Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the
 bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the
 way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
 The fifth would pay $1.
 The sixth would pay $3
 The seventh would pay $7.
 The eighth would pay $12.
 The ninth would pay $18.
 The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

 So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank
 in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
 arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
 "Since you are all such good customers," he said,
 "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.
"Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

 The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
 taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still
 drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying
 customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that
 everyone would get his fair share?' They realized that
 $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
 from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth
 man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the
 bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
 man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded
 to work out the amounts each should pay.

 And so:

 The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
 savings).
 The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings) .
 The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings) .
 The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
 The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
 The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 Each of the six was better off than before. And the first
 four continued to drink for free. But once outside the
 restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

 "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the
 sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

 "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved
 a dollar,too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

 "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get
 $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

 "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

 The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
 The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks,
 so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it
 came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
 important. They didn't have enough money between all of
 them for even half of the bill!

 And that, boys and girls, journalists, liberals, and
 college professors, is how our tax system works. The people
 who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax
 reduction. Tax them too much, or attack them for being
 wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
 Professor of Economics
 University of Georgia

 For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
 For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
 

OK seriously, this really isn't that great of an explanation. First of all, buying drinks is not the best example as, I think most people know, if someone drinks alcohol they would NEVER complain about getting a beer for free. Not only that, this is backwards, if you've never been poor then you probably don't know that if you're using this system and you are getting something for free then you wouldn't beat up some rich person who's helping you get something, whatever it may be. This explanation shows that taxing the wealthy would help more than it would hurt. especially if gave poor people things for free, oh and I think the only free things they should get are food, water and shelter but some people abuse this. read below;

But don't think that I think poor people deserve this just because they are poor. I really can't stand when people use the system and don't try to get themselves going. For instance, in the example, the first four guys who didn't have to pay anything, wouldn't let the rich guy pay the most all the time without being rewarded (they sure as hell wouldn't beat him up and if one of them did the others would stop him because they understand they are getting treated right)and there is things that are more important than just them buying him drinks sometime. A rich guy who helps others would have someone to back him up if he was being mugged or something.

I know I kinda blab on but do you seriously believe that raising taxes on the wealthy would be horrible? oh yeah I wasn't going to come in the topic anymore, oh well I guess I won't just be reading the posts now.

Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2008, 08:46:09 am »
@guitarherolover32- That story is not about drinkers it is a metaphor about our tax policy, and it is 100% correct. Why is it ok to tax the wealthy so much more? Is it because they worked so hard to get where they are or because they provide jobs for the rest of us? If my boss has to pay higher taxes then someone at my company is getting layed off to make up for it. Will it be me?

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2008, 09:27:40 am »
Okay, so maybe bar stool econ is too simple.  Please check out this wiki to see how tax affects the free market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss

Bottom line, taxes are bad on the economy. People that think taxing the rich is a good thing for the economy are fooling themselves.  Rich or poor, supplier or consumer, taxes always negatively affect the market.  Which is ironic considering how many people put economics as issue #1 for the election.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2008, 05:18:57 pm »
Am I wealthy? I pay 42 percent of my income in taxes union dues and insurance, not counting home insurance or car insurance. It also does not include gas taxes or cigarette taxes. Just income taxes I can see on my pay stub.

On a more snide note, when things are not going your way, either whine, snivel or bury your head in the sand.

Oh, and class warfare works. Isn't that by and large why Bush is hated so much by the left?

Oh and it doesn't do much good in the long run, look at the Big 3 auto makers. I need to look at the Barron's article that says that management, labor, and the shareholders must all make concessions, in order to get the corporations in profitable condition.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #224 on: November 17, 2008, 06:03:35 pm »
How many of you who like to kvetch about taxes
(a) went to public school?
(b) have benefitted from stop signs, stop lights, street name signs, etc.?
(c) have enjoyed public parks, beaches, heritage sites, museums, etc.?
(d) have needed the services of a municipal, county, state, or federal law officer?
(e) have needed a firefighter, EMT, or ambulance, or known someone whose life was saved by one?
(f) voted in the last election--using voting mechanisms and staff that had to be funded by *something*
(g) have ever used any form of public transit
(h) have ever attended any state or community college
etc. etc. etc.
Well then you directly benefitted from taxes so who are you to begrudge that they are in place? You ready to personally finance all those services for your whole community? No? Didn't think so.

SPARE ME.
It's just a given to me. Taxes are there for the public good. You make more off the public, you owe more towards the good of others. Not to the point that you're paralyzed, but to a point that makes sense. I remain astonished that there's no sales tax in Oregon.
(I grew up with one back East. There was a much lower tax on food items than on anything else. It was a pain in the butt at the cash register, but our school district was listed as one of the 10 best in Time Magazine. Oh and our district had school buses, unlike Eugene.)

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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2008, 08:26:04 pm »
Now I know why there are no Eugene 4J buses going from Autzen stadium after the games! I wondered, so did mom why there were school districts from as fas as Coos Bay, but not one from Eugene.

Wonder what they will do when the Emeralds play at Autzen and not at Civic stadium...

My take on taxes are that the economic pinch should be felt equally by all. And they should be used for the benefit of all, not just some or a few. All, as in everyone can go to Crater lake National Park.

yup, one of two or three states with no sales tax, and no self-serve gasoline either! Woot! I've been thinking about what would happen with a sales tax, but it seems that no level of government can do without a tax source ever. Meaning that were we to give ourselves a sales tax, would income taxes decrease or go away altogether?

Also, Oregon does not have any military bases, except for Umatilla Weapons Depot, just say nerve gas, not NIRV gas. sorry little anime joke there. Unlike all our neighbors, Washington, California, Nevada, Idaho, etc. etc. etc. Do you realize how much economic benefit those states get from that? Lots. But it still isn't enough for California.

Nothing is enough for California. I have no solutions to offer.
Have Fun

Jay

Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #226 on: November 18, 2008, 12:05:46 am »
Ellen, please don't take things so personally, your last post sounded a little heated.

I've never said taxes are unneeded.  I'm just saying people need to be honest about how they negatively affect the free market.

And I do agree with Jay, for the amount of federal money we pay out we sure don't get much in return. 

So the thing that erks me is that in government jobs, departments are punished for cost saving.  I had a friend at another forum that worked for the government and if they had a surplus in at the end of the year then their budget would be reduced the next year.  I'd like to see this practice reversed. 

REWARD government employees for saving money, have part of their bonus based on how much under budget they can be.
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Offline I Future Trunks I

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #227 on: November 18, 2008, 11:49:59 am »
Obama rox.
MY COSPLAYS FOR KCON '09!
 MAH COSPLAYS FOR KCON '09
Toshiro Hitsugaya FROM BLEACH
Teen Sora from KINGDOM HEARTS
Mirai no Trunks from Doragon Ball Zetto
AND..of course... Lan Hikari from Megaman NT warrior!

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #228 on: November 18, 2008, 06:41:53 pm »
I agree, a use-it-or-lose-it budget mentality does not make sense during a time of deficit.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #229 on: November 19, 2008, 03:39:44 pm »
government employees get bonuses? anyone in Oregon gets a Christmas bonus? Never heard of that. Certainly never got one.

Use it or lose it doesn't make sense at any time. It only leads to waste. It does not make it so that when things break, they are repaired or replaced.

I think I should tell you folks a story, but in person and not on the net. sigh I wish I could sound more positive today, but...wait for tomorrow! I will be really burned out! JUst in time for my weekend.
Have Fun

Jay

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2008, 10:38:37 am »
One of the first things I would do to try to make taxes more equitable, in addition to the aforementioned goal of Obama's "to eliminate tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas" or whatever the verbatim was, would be to set some equitable guidelines for those immensely profitable businesses (such as the Sacred Wallet BILLION dollar hospital empire) that get off tax-free for having a religious affiliation. Makes ZERO sense to me. A vastly profit-making hospital is NOT a church, even if it's run by folks affiliated with one. They should pay property and business taxes like everyone else. Proportional to the amount they profit after expenses.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2008, 04:26:17 pm »
That would be one of the wonder's of the modern world, fix the US tax code. But... can you say special interests? I can only imagine fixing the social security nightmare to come as being about the only thing harder to do.

Now if we can just get people to stop building houses where we shouldn't obviously be building houses. E.G. 5 feet below sea level in hurricane zones. Up in the hills of Southern California. And rickety construction methods in tornado alley. Yes, this makes things very difficult, but...the insurance is killing us in the long run. If we can get insurance, as they are trying like heck to get out of insuring those places.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 10:29:17 pm by jaybug »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #232 on: November 21, 2008, 12:23:56 am »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally killing many of us.
Now here's a type of insurance most of us aren't directly affected by but don't realize that we're indirectly affected by: malpractice insurance. My dad's been saving lives in an operating room in a hospital in a dangerous part of one of the world's biggest cities --lots of gunshot wounds and stabbing wounds from gang fights, etc.--for 40 years. In addition to the aforementioned travesty that Fannie Mae and Lehman Brothers' irresponsibility & government lack of oversight to prevent such, ate his IRA--well malpractice insurance has been eating a huge chunk of his paychecks forever..........

Here's a major pet peeve of mine. When collections companies spend so much more to try to get my money than I actually owe them. And even more so, when they bother to do so so harranguingly, so hypocritically, after getting government bailout money themselves. Screw that!
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #233 on: November 21, 2008, 03:49:26 am »
Yeah, I'm not pleased at obama supporting the bailout. 
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #234 on: November 21, 2008, 03:08:41 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...

Thank you! Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.

And Obama's support of the bailout was a huge "ARGH" moment for me. Clearly AIG is doing well as is evidence from their resort trips and all.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 03:10:10 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #235 on: November 21, 2008, 04:30:43 pm »
Agreed Lychee, I as a tax payer want our money back from that loser deal.
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Offline Higuma

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #236 on: November 22, 2008, 05:52:23 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #237 on: November 22, 2008, 06:24:46 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally

Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.

I have not seen this. The real question is not weather the source is credible, but rather if the facts presented were accurate. Rem, or anyone else, could you clairify as to the facts of this source?

Quote
Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.

This seems like a matter of opinion on how the message was delivered. Im curious to the facts presented in the movie.

Of course understanding always that people may or may not agree with me.  :) :)
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #238 on: November 22, 2008, 06:35:27 pm »
u.s. census good enough for y'all?
% of uninsured skyrockets:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

deaths from lack of insurance:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=6684&page=article

confirmed by american medical association:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/05/05/gvsc0505.htm

I love Michael Moore, he is one of my heroes. I couldn't care less who doesn't like him as a filmmaker, but anyone who thinks people don't die from lack of insurance is FULL OF @#$#.
I personally know of more than one person who died from lack of DENTAL CARE.

This is UNACCEPTABLE in this country or anywhere.
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Offline Mentally Hilarious

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #239 on: November 22, 2008, 06:56:19 pm »
Whether Obama or McCain won, America is still going under in one way or another. Why worry? Its FUN to move to CANADA! :D


Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #240 on: November 22, 2008, 07:02:50 pm »
http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/fs030220.htm

The Centers for Disease Control study of a decade of statistics verifies that there women who do not receive prenatal care are THREE TO FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE a pregnancy-related death than those who do. Is that enough for those who doubt Michael Moore to admit that people without access to medical care die disproportionately? By G-d, it's such an obvious given, I can't even remotely imagine how anyone could question it. Unless, of course, they're sucked into the right-wing mentality of hey if you can't pay for it yourself I guess you just deserve to die. *shrugs* I simply can't countenance that mentality.
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #241 on: November 22, 2008, 09:08:19 pm »
Speaking of insurance killing us --see Michael Moore's Sicko for proof of how vastly denial of insurance is literally
Michael Moore: Not a credible source...
Very true.
I have not seen this. The real question is not weather the source is credible, but rather if the facts presented were accurate. Rem, or anyone else, could you clairify as to the facts of this source?

Quote
Because grabbing a few 9-11 victims, a megaphone, and a boat, sailing to Guantanamo Bay, and sitting out their demanding Health insurance is a great way to get your point across.
This seems like a matter of opinion on how the message was delivered. Im curious to the facts presented in the movie.

Of course understanding always that people may or may not agree with me.  :) :)

My only question about Michael Moore is; If what he is saying and showing in the numerous documentaries he has created and played nation wide, in theaters all across the US, is untrue, why hasn't anyone stopped him?  Is it because he is an Academy Award winning filmmaker and political commentator?  If you can give me an answer to that, that I can stomach, then I will agree that he isn't a creditable source.  Yes he tends to be a bit theatrical, but he does toss out facts, and visit real places, and interview real doctors, and talk to real patients.  Maybe they aren't the average, or the norm, but they are real examples just the same.  To say that ANYONE was paying over $150 for an inhaler in the US that they could get the generic brand of for $0.05 in Cuba, is just wrong.  Or that you are denied any form of health care that will SAVE YOUR LIFE, because you don't have insurance that will cover it.  FACT- the guy could have had an operation that would most likely have saved him.  FACT - a family member was a match for the needed operation.  FACT - the family member was willing to aid the patient.  FACT - The man died when the hospital refused to do the procedure because his insurance didn't cover it.  Or that when you accidentaly chop of a couple of your fingers you have to choose which one to have re-attached, because your insurance wont cover the cost of both.  Now that one was just plain surprising to me.  How about the closed circut TV footage of the cab letting the lady off in front of a low-income emergency ward, in her hospital gown, after the other hospital kicked her out for not having any money?  I suppose he faked that?  Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 09:13:15 pm by Wuntvor »
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 //_\\   Dizzy:    Hexx, Stretch.  Hexx.
  d b    Stretch: Aw!  Two of them!  That's even worse!

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #242 on: November 22, 2008, 09:24:11 pm »
Quote
Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?

I did admit above that I hadnt seen sicko, and I must say I havent seen a Michael Moore film as I wasnt sure if they would be worth seeing.

I will agree whole heartedly that our insurance system is messed up. I know that just being pregnant has been more of a hassle than it should be. I was really sick/feverish on a Saturday and because my clinic wasnt open on weekends, I had to go to urgent care for a simple cold. I only wanted to ask what medicines they would prefer me take and I had to sit in the waiting room for nearly an hour watching people WAY worse off than me in various ways wait after me. Finding an Urgent care clinic to take me was also a hassle as I could only go to the 1 that my insurance covered. I hadnt needed to go to urgent care for any reason so I had to call the insurance company and be transfered 5 TIMES to find out where I could go.

but what really got under my skin was when the doctor listed off all the medical terms for medicines I could take (like I honestly understand doctor talk and can translate it into what it will do for me) then asked me

"So what can I get for you?"

My first thought was "Are you a doctor or a drug dealer?" I came for advice! I wanted a medical opinion as to what I should take. So I made him tell me what each thing would specifically do for me before ultimatly saying what I thought would help.

My situation is so small compaired to transplant, or dental deaths. But its not just the big insurance issues that are rediculous, its all of it.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #243 on: November 22, 2008, 09:29:50 pm »
Wuntvor & Deviant Spider, I agree with both your posts (and hope you, D.S., will now check out Sicko).
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #244 on: November 22, 2008, 09:31:13 pm »
And Obama's support of the bailout was a huge "ARGH" moment for me. Clearly AIG is doing well as is evidence from their resort trips and all.
It wasn't a bailout.  The proposal was to purchase assets to give monetary backing to their loans.  If we had done that in a timely manner, we would have saved the U.S. market 1.3 trillion dollars in the short term, and much more in the long term.  Because people lacked foresight and misunderstood the transaction, the economy is down another 2 trillion dollars and counting.
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Offline reppy

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #245 on: November 22, 2008, 09:41:08 pm »
Well, seems to me that Moore was right to oppose the Iraq war.  So if we want talk credibility..  ;D  You want to know what the problem is?  Insurance companies don't make money by providing care .. they make money by denying it.  That's a sad fact and a reason I'm not very trusting of "for profit" health care.  Who are you?  You're just some schmuck to them.  But boy oh boy, if their stock holders aren't pleased then there's trouble.

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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #246 on: November 22, 2008, 09:46:27 pm »
Quote
Have you actually watched a Michael Moore film?
I did admit above that I hadnt seen sicko, and I must say I havent seen a Michael Moore film as I wasnt sure if they would be worth seeing.

D-Spider, my comment wasn't at you (I had read that you hadn't watched it.) It was at Mr. Mustash, Higuma, and Lychee-twist, who said Michael Moore isn't a creditable source.  I would think that the threat of massively huge lawsuits, if he lied about anything, would add some creditability to what he was saying.  And, I am with Rem on suggesting you see Sicko, and some of the other Michael Moore films.  All of them left me with a huge desire to go out and kill something.  You get SO ANGRY.  ARGHH!!!
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #247 on: November 22, 2008, 09:51:36 pm »
The only one I've watched all the way through was Bowling for Columbine, which certainly didn't make me want to kill much of anything!  Michael Moore is a valid source as far as what he does goes simply by principle.  You can't go out and talk to people who have been shot at during a school shooting and be an invalid source in that regard.  Michael Moore is a secondary source on almost all information he delivers.  Most "reliable" sources are at least tertiary -- sources that interpret information that has been observed from a secondary view.
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #248 on: November 22, 2008, 10:07:25 pm »
I believe it may have to do with Fahrenheit 9/11 movie which presents a large number of facts either out of context or have their accuracy in dispute.  I do not know this for myself, but thats the impression I get from the few reviews I've read. 
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #249 on: November 22, 2008, 10:08:39 pm »
Ah.  That's one I haven't seen any of.
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #250 on: November 22, 2008, 10:08:44 pm »
Well, seems to me that Moore was right to oppose the Iraq war.  So if we want talk credibility..  ;D  You want to know what the problem is?  Insurance companies don't make money by providing care .. they make money by denying it.  That's a sad fact and a reason I'm not very trusting of "for profit" health care.  Who are you?  You're just some schmuck to them.  But boy oh boy, if their stock holders aren't pleased then there's trouble.

I think these two clips from The Incredibles say it all:

I'm sorry I can't help you mam.

What about our stock holders, Bob? (slightly squashed, but I couldn't find an English version that wasn't)

Enjoy
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #251 on: November 22, 2008, 11:11:11 pm »
I believe it may have to do with Fahrenheit 9/11 movie which presents a large number of facts either out of context or have their accuracy in dispute.  I do not know this for myself, but thats the impression I get from the few reviews I've read. 
Fahrenheit 9/11 is the one that gets the most flack.  Other parties made movies as rebuttals to his view "fahrenHYPE 9/11"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FahrenHYPE_9/11

Heck, there is even a wiki on Michael Moore controvercy.

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:17:12 pm by melchizedek »
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Offline Rathany

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #252 on: November 23, 2008, 12:29:14 am »

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong :)
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #253 on: November 23, 2008, 12:33:34 am »
like the person who spilled hot coffee herself?  or the one who planted a finger in their chili....
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #254 on: November 23, 2008, 03:40:21 am »

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong :)
Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.
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Offline Rathany

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #255 on: November 23, 2008, 01:44:56 pm »

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong :)
Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.

Ah, ok, I was not following the threads of conversation well enough, then. 

While I was being a bit facetious in my comment, I do think that making a good documentary without any legal troubles would be hard to do in America.  Obviously, this would vary a bit based on subject matter, but still.  On anything that is a current social issue, I would expect lawsuits.  Maybe I am just jaded :)
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Offline soundninja12

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #256 on: November 23, 2008, 01:53:19 pm »
I now I'm really late in saying this,
but
YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #257 on: November 23, 2008, 04:34:32 pm »
Agreed to an extent, was just responding to someone post that said that Mr Moore wasn't getting sued and thus was completely correct.  I'm of the opinion that legal action does not nesicarly have anything to do with truth.  Seems like a poor litmis test in my opinion.

That would be me.  I also agree with you.  I went and started reading the Michael Moore sited that talk about his films and argue against his claims.  I found that there is quite a bit against him out there.  As has been previousely stated this has mostly to do with his Fahrenheit 9/11 film.  Here are a couple of links that discuss his films in detail.

Michael Moore controversies

Dave Kopel - Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

After reading these my opinion of Mr. Moore, is a little less than it was, but I still give him kudos for bringing to the attention of the US the many problems we have with believing everything we see on TV, even if it includes him.  And the subjects of his films, are definitely things that should be brought to the attention of the American public.

u.s. census good enough for y'all?
% of uninsured skyrockets:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

deaths from lack of insurance:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=6684&page=article

confirmed by american medical association:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/05/05/gvsc0505.htm

I love Michael Moore, he is one of my heroes. I couldn't care less who doesn't like him as a filmmaker, but anyone who thinks people don't die from lack of insurance is FULL OF @#$#.
I personally know of more than one person who died from lack of DENTAL CARE.

This is UNACCEPTABLE in this country or anywhere.

Rem, as much as I agree with you about Mr. Moore on his coverage of this issue, and his movie Sicko, before you make him one of your heroes you may want to take a closer look at his stand on Israel.  I think on that area you two are polar opposites.  From what I read, he has angered quite a few of the Jewish people.  I haven't researched this in any detail.

In short,  I will bow to the statement that Mr. Moore isn't a reliable source.  I still stand by my earlier examples from his film, though, as being actual examples of things that are wrong with the health care system.  I admitted already, that they may be biased examples, and not fairly representative of the health care system as a whole.  The facts still remain that people are dying because their health coverage won't pay for needed treatments, people have to determine which fingers to have re-attached (I suppose you can get them all done if you pay out of pocket), and people still pay $150 for an inhalent that they can get the generic version of for $0.05 in Cuba.  These facts still remain, as well as many other things that the movie brings up.

I think the closest that this subject has to do with Obama is the idea of socialized medicine.  I for one think it may be worth a try.  It definitely couldn't be worse.  I often read from the detractors of this that people have to wait long periods of time to get help, or that they have to schedule their appointments for urgent care, and may have to wait months.  Are you talking about Canada or the US?  It seems to me that most of that is true now for the majority of US citizens.  My wife has a number of contacts in Canada that she talks with regularly.  None of them ever had to wait more than 40 minutes to see a doctor.

I, personally, was having a bad reaction to my thyroid medication.  My entire body was shaking, and I was sweating, and tired, because of insomnia.  I called my doctors office, and was told my doctor was out, and that I could make an appointment to see a different doctor, how about 2 weeks from know?  When I told them I thought the problem was my medication dosage, they said I could go to an emergency room and pay my deductible to have someone who didn't know anything about my medical history make a determination about my medicine.  That people is a true account of US health care.

Oh and I missed work for 1 day.  I lost my $800 yearly perfect attendance bonus, because I didn't see a doctor, and I didn't have a physicians note stating I was sick.  Is that fair, or what?
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #258 on: November 23, 2008, 08:16:40 pm »
You got an attendance bonus? Or had the chance to get one at all, I mean? Best I ever had was if you were under a certain percentage, you DID get your annual pay increase. Miss too much work, you didn't get a raise.

If you want better info, look at PBS' Frontline. They had a health care show, and went all over the world, places where health care seems to work better for all citizens, and they showed some of the problems that Mr. Moore failed to mention in his film.

I don't think Mr. Spurlock was sued by McDonald's for his film Just Super-Size Me. If anything, The Big Mac was on his side, in saying that burger and fries are only PART of your diet, not all of it. And also have been going full bore into salads and other more healthful options.

Then there is that one guy in Ohio who has a Big Mac every day since they started making them. He's skinny as a rail. Saw it on the news a while back. I don't think he super sizes anything. They also didn't mention what he ate for the rest of his diet.

I think the difference between the two documentarians is one is politically motivated, the other not. Good science is a good idea!

Does anyone remember when Bush tried to limit malpractice lawsuits in order to decrease the insurance costs? Oh yeah, John Edwards and the other trial lawyers were able to defeat it. Lawyers trump doctors.

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Offline melchizedek

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #259 on: November 23, 2008, 11:33:50 pm »
I agree with the mal practice insurance costs being outrageous. 

However, that's only part of the problem someone told me the biggest cost is the whole paperwork song and dance that billing and insurance do.  I consider myself conservative and don't like government sticking its nose into things unless it is absolutely necessary.  But for health care, the free market is not doing a good job of optimizing itself.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #260 on: November 24, 2008, 04:39:37 pm »
Let's not forget all the hypochondriacs out there that drive up costs.

Anyway, my letter to the editor of the Register Guard was published today. Wheee! Got the lead off position again, too.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #261 on: November 24, 2008, 07:42:37 pm »
Let's not forget all the hypochondriacs out there that drive up costs.
 

True but if doctors didnt perscribe perscriptions just because it will make the patient happy, then they wouldnt believe they have half the problems that they do. Anymore doctors are in trouble with pharmasutical companies if they dont "Push" prescriptions, and all hypohondriacs know that when they go in, they get an automatic "fix me" prescription. Id love to actually see a doctor tell one of these people that they arent going to prescribe them somthing because theres nothing wrong with them. Instead they write those Rx's just as fast. Your right, hypchondriacs do drive up costs, and those who really avoid the doctor like the plague (myself) unless I REALLY need to go, suffer in the long run.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #262 on: November 24, 2008, 10:24:50 pm »

Oh, and Michael Moore has been recieved lawsuits for his movies.

True.  And Oprah was sued for saying that she was scared to eat beef after a series of news stories about beef related illnessess.  It was a major, ongoing lawsuit.  You don't need to be in the wrong to be in receipt of a lawsuit. 

If a documentary filmmaker in the US isn't getting sued, s/he is doing something wrong :)

Agreed.

Wuntvor: I don't know anything about what Moore says about Israel. Given Emanuel as Chief of Staff, whose dad was in underground Zionist forces, and that Emanuel himself volunteered as a civilian in the Israeli Defense force in Gulf War I, etc., I'm feeling a little relief at not having to worry whether Obama would turn his back on Israel.
Now, how are you feeling? I'm sorry for your difficulty, but thank you for a classic example of what's wrong with this country's health care system, even for those who are employed and insured!
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #263 on: November 24, 2008, 11:20:33 pm »
Now, how are you feeling? I'm sorry for your difficulty, but thank you for a classic example of what's wrong with this country's health care system, even for those who are employed and insured!
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Offline Seraph

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #264 on: November 24, 2008, 11:23:19 pm »
@Deviant Spider
that reminds me of some of the bad practices with Antibiotics.
Remember reading a story where a mother wanted antibiotics for a cold in her child's ear.  The docter in the story was unique (for the time at least, I hear its getting better) in that he refused and tried to explain it wouldn't do anything.  Mother gets angrily chews him off and goes to find another doctor, "one that cares about children!"......>_>.....
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Offline Radien

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #265 on: November 25, 2008, 01:29:59 am »
Hmm... last page of topic not so Obama-ish... well, I'll roll with the punches.

I haven't seen a full Michael Moore film, but I've seen clips and heard interviews. So I'll keep my opinion proportionally short:

I think Michael Moore does want the truth. And in many cases he succeeds in calling attention to things that have been ignored, but shouldn't be. But often, he seems prone to make a serious mistake: in believing that the polar opposite of "wrong" is "right." (When I use the word "right," I'm talking about accuracy, not morality.) You can't be right merely by finding the most "wrong" person out there and saying the opposite of whatever they say. Accuracy isn't measured on a polar scale; it's more like pinpointing a location on a map. No... not even a map. A globe. Because globes wrap around.


Anyway, about health care: if nothing else, I feel confident that Obama is motivated to fix the system. This is because unlike many (most?) candidates, he has a moral, personal, and (to some extent) emotional prerogative to do so: his mother had to deal with the pitfalls of a flawed health care system right before she died, spending her final months arguing with insurance companies about "preexisting conditions." That sort of screwed up human response leaves a mark.

The problem with privatized health care is that success is measured by profit effectiveness. In order to maximize profits, you have to see clients as investments, and drop the "bad investments." This means the people who really need help the most are the first to go, regardless of whether it's their fault or not. Personally, I don't think this is acceptable for a civilized society. We need to go to reasonable lengths to take care of our sick.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #266 on: November 25, 2008, 04:49:29 pm »
Let's just hope that Mr. Obama's plans can survive the impact that monied interests will throw up against ANY plan that is not the status quo. If it isn't fighting the HMOs, or the doctors, it will surely run afoul of the trial lawyers!

Maybe he ought to push for a really big change in the way we do health care for the next election cycle, so that politicians will want to be on that side as opposed to the monied interest side, eh?

And here I thought timing was everything ONLY in comedy.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #267 on: November 26, 2008, 06:41:26 pm »
I think Michael Moore does want the truth.

(blah blah blah)

Anyway, about health care: if nothing else, I feel confident that Obama is motivated to fix the system. This is because unlike many (most?) candidates, he has a moral, personal, and (to some extent) emotional prerogative to do so: his mother had to deal with the pitfalls of a flawed health care system right before she died, spending her final months arguing with insurance companies about "preexisting conditions." That sort of screwed up human response leaves a mark.

The problem with privatized health care is that success is measured by profit effectiveness. In order to maximize profits, you have to see clients as investments, and drop the "bad investments." This means the people who really need help the most are the first to go, regardless of whether it's their fault or not. Personally, I don't think this is acceptable for a civilized society. We need to go to reasonable lengths to take care of our sick.

I think Moore did want the truth, at first, but quickly sought out just to make everything about this country seem evil.  I think he does it now just to anger some people that he doesn't like for whatever reason.

As for Obama, I will agree that he wants to improve our healthcare system, but what he's been promising is one of the main reasons why I didn't vote for him.  Unless he's got some seriously complicated secret plan, he's gonna have to tax people like mad in order to create a universal healthcare system.  It takes money, people, money from the government that comes from taxpayers.  He's gonna have to break one promise in order to keep another, and that's assuming he keeps either one.
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #268 on: November 26, 2008, 08:16:30 pm »
What you have to understand when dealing with economics and taxes is that the top .1% is richer than the rest of the top 1%.  The top 1% is richer than the rest of the top 5%.  The top 5% is richer than the bottom 95% of the USA, Canada, and Europe combined.

Raising taxes to affect everyone as individuals lowers the threshold of benefit.  That threshold represents the difference between net loss and net gain.  Either you gain from the benefits of taxation or you lose.

Only those who are within that tiny margin are actually hurt by taxes that pay for services like education, health care, and emergency services.  Those who were above the threshold remain in the same situation as they were already in.  Those who were below the threshold benefit from it.

That is why communism has not worked properly ever.  The margin that occurs when taxes go from 20% to 100%, or even from 80% to 100%, is too large to justify the <5% who usually benefit from a completely communist economy.  As a formula, there is a shape similar to a bell curve that represents taxation.  There is an optimal value that will help the most people the most while taking away from as few people as possible by comparison.

Those who lose have everything they had before.  They won't collapse and die without that $300,000 out of their $30,000,000.  However, those who gain get something they didn't have before.  The $300 they pay to help everyone does them more good than the $3000 they paid just to help themselves.

The reason politicians are so hesitant to raise taxes is because they are sociologically detached from the matter.  They rely on the public voices.  And of course, the loudest of those voices will always be the ones who suddenly find themselves with a net loss where there was once a net gain.

You have to understand the concept of 300,000,000 to understand how powerful taxes can be.
If 300,000,000 people each took a turn to add 1 character to a novel, it would be 1000 times as long as the longest Harry Potter book.
If you made a bitmap image with 300,000,000 pixels, it would take up 71.5GB of space on your hard drive.
So how hard can it be for 300,000,000 people to help the 30,000,000 people who can't afford to help themselves?
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #269 on: November 26, 2008, 08:27:14 pm »
Quote
If you made a bitmap image with 300,000,000 pixels, it would take up 71.5GB of space on your hard drive.
So how hard can it be for 300,000,000 people to help the 30,000,000 people who can't afford to help themselves?

umm, 71.5 billion? sorry, just had to do that.

Anyway, I think all this talk about health care is going to prove moot. We have an unlimited amount of monies going to cardio-shock the economy, now and in the days to come. Obama has gotten an economic team together, not a health care team. I honestly don't think he is going to be able to do much of anything. Unless he can get it spun into an economic stimulus plan.

Ya know, I wish we could do things bit by bit, but I know that is insane to expect. As soon as whatever is out of sight, it's out of mind too. They throw money once, and that is supposed to solve everything. See Charlie Wilson's War about Afghanistan to underline this point. Because it was not a one off exception.

What I mean is to have health care for all children and the elderly first. Get those two groups covered, as they are less able, unable to provide for themselves, so that we can have a better understanding of the costs that the rest of us are going to have to pay. And we can then decide if the price is far too high, or we can bite the bullet.

And yes, people should save up for rainy days, such as retirement, instead of partying it all away, or keeping in debt up to their eyeballs.

Or, oh nevermind. I am just going to get nihilistic if I continue. sigh
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #270 on: November 26, 2008, 08:44:37 pm »
Nope, 75.6 billion.  Gibibytes, not Gigabytes.
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Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #271 on: November 26, 2008, 09:49:17 pm »
I personally think that as soon as we fix the healthcare problem, then we'll be right on track to recovery. I also think that the housing market needs some serious help too as that alone is the cause for a lot of jobs. But that's just my opinion. Oh and moot means "arguable: open to argument or debate". Another grammar pet-peeve of mine, sorry.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #272 on: November 26, 2008, 09:55:08 pm »
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00315506?query_type=word&queryword=moot&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=qb6D-LzUvb2-15610&result_place=1 


  2. N. Amer. (orig. Law). Of a case, issue, etc.: having no practical significance or relevance; abstract, academic.
  Now the usual sense in North America.


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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #273 on: November 27, 2008, 12:29:40 am »
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00315506?query_type=word&queryword=moot&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=qb6D-LzUvb2-15610&result_place=1 


  2. N. Amer. (orig. Law). Of a case, issue, etc.: having no practical significance or relevance; abstract, academic.
  Now the usual sense in North America.

Jay, your link to the Oxford dictionary requires a subscription.  I went to Wiktionary and found that both of you are correct:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot

Although whether or not it makes a difference is moot.   ;D
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #274 on: November 27, 2008, 12:41:35 am »
I personally think that as soon as we fix the healthcare problem, then we'll be right on track to recovery.

Again, if it gets fixed.  And Tofu, no offense, but taxing in general angers people; that's why politicians normally try to stear clear of it, unless the proposition can be made to look really good.

Take I-1029 for example.  For those of you who don't know what that is, it was a bill-thingy being voted on in Washington that, in major summary, would have those working in a certain service care providing occupation, to undergo a buttload of unnecessary training.  It passed by 70something percent.  It was a stupid move by Washingtonians, but the proposal, as presented with the election ballots, is written in a way that makes it look good, without going into detail on why it's an evil thing we just passed.

Again, Obama is going to have to tax us if we're going to even come close to getting the healthcare plan he's wanting; it doesn't matter how much the top .1% makes, or the 1%, or even the top 10%.  We're all gonna get taxed in order for it to work.
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #275 on: November 27, 2008, 10:15:59 am »
No offense taken; that's exactly the majority I'm arguing against.  The people who think that taxes are hurting them are the people who are trying to pay their way through college (of course, those people are actually getting rather gratuitous funding from the state), or who went hungry in the name of a massive "police action" in Vietnam.  Or who, for whatever reason, found themselves paying taxes for something destructive, controversial, or irrelevant.  Universal healthcare will benefit roughly 90% of the citizen population.  The remaining 10% has enough wealth that they don't need Universal Healthcare, and will likely continue to pay for private healthcare services.  Only a small portion of people near the bottom of that upper 10% (or however much it actually is) will actually suffer from implementing Universal Healthcare.

People have this mindset that the government is always wrong and wants to hurt them.  If that were the case, nobody would get re-elected.  The entire point of democracy is that the government comes from an open pool of candidates.  People let the system go to waste by obsessing over the ideas of being a Democrat or a Republican.  Individualism is lost and party politics corrupt the process.  That's no fault of politicians.  That's the fault of a bi-partisan majority.  "The Man" won't hold you down.  The police might, but if the president ever comes up to you while you're at a peace rally and tells you, "hey, no protesting!" and tackles you, I'll be very surprised.

So what I'm saying is that people need to kill that mindset that taxes are a bad thing.  Ever heard the term taxation without representation?  It's what lost the British their 13 colonies in 1776.  Universal Healthcare is a form of taxation with complete representation.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #276 on: November 27, 2008, 12:18:02 pm »
Uh, no. Getting the free health care would mean they were represented. I.e. that their own interests were benefitted.
Wuntvor, glad you're adjusting...both to the meds & the layoffs...can you tell me more about this Trade Act that helps people go back to school? Does it apply to only those who get laid off en masse? What about those who can't get hired because of a glut of overqualified people in their field? I'd love to get some paid retraining myself......
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #277 on: November 27, 2008, 01:40:12 pm »
Uh, no. Getting the free health care would mean they were represented. I.e. that their own interests were benefitted.
Wuntvor, glad you're adjusting...both to the meds & the layoffs...can you tell me more about this Trade Act that helps people go back to school? Does it apply to only those who get laid off en masse? What about those who can't get hired because of a glut of overqualified people in their field? I'd love to get some paid retraining myself......

The Trade Act stepped in because Hynix is a Korean Company (it is an offshoot of Hyundai).  When they pulled out of Eugene they took their only US fab and closed it down.  Since the US workers can't relocate to Korea, and go to work in one of the other Hynix fabs, this makes us eligible for TA assistance.  Hynix had to formally request this assistance in order to receive it, and each employee has to file paperwork, and be approved, before getting any.  This took months.   ::)

For the most part, it is really nice.  Have a lot of paperwork to do up front, but once you get in the program there are a lot of benefits for you.  It is a lot like the socialized education they have in Germany, and other countries.  They will pay for your education and schooling, but you have to pick your field of endeavour and not change.  If you decide to change your degree half way through.. (SLICE).  no more coverage.  Also they want to see you in a job, in your chosen field, directly after you graduate from school.  I also have to fax a form to Salem every week signed by a school official, stating 'Yes, Terry did attend all of his scheduled classes this week."  Along with the usual, no I didn't quit/get fired from a job, get some other form of income, leave the area, etc.  So, Yes, I am getting an all expenses paid education, but I have to prove myself worthy of it, and no slacking!  I'm also 45 years old.  Feels sort of strange to be back in college.  I need a persocom.  "Terry.  Do your best!  Gambare!  Fight-on!"   :D

Oh, and I currently have no medical at all for me or my family, and my son is also in college.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 11:07:28 pm by Wuntvor »
(\,@/)  Quote from -  Rock & Rule
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  d b    Stretch: Aw!  Two of them!  That's even worse!

Offline jaybug

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Re: OBAMA WON!!!!!!!
« Reply #278 on: November 27, 2008, 06:39:51 pm »
Since all y'all are so into health care, at what level is it going to be rationed? Like the Oregon health plan? Where if you are on unemployment, you make too much money and are thus unable to be on the plan? And that year I made a whopping 10k! Great, free care to the people who stand on every street corner here in Eugene, and nothing for everyone else. Do you think the homeless population will explode or what? Or as you are speaking nationally we can expect a flood of illegals from just about everywhere, right?

Have we not noticed how so many people are lining up for free bailouts for a mere 700 billion, and no one is going to be showing up for free health care? Release the hounds! It's going to be like the shopping malls will be tomorrow morning, EVERY FREAKING DAY!

As far as my experience goes, Kaiser is the best example of what we can hope for. But it is going to be operated by the same people who brought you New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. Does anyone see the problem with that? HELLOOOOOOOOooooooooo!

What I hear you saying sounds nice, but you haven't overcome the obstacles of HMOs, trial lawyers, or even the AMA, who are all going to want to be front and center when the checks are being written out. Remember we're talkin' real money here, people tend to forget about serve the public good, when it comes to a new Lexus in MY driveway. capiche?

I think it a worthy goal to provide for all. But..............I think Haiti colonizing Mars is more probable.
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Offline DemonSpawn

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