Author Topic: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)  (Read 70777 times)

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Offline murder_of_raven

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Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« on: September 02, 2008, 07:40:59 pm »
This panel idea was suggested to me by RemSaverem and has recieved a bit of positive response on the "2008 Reviews!" thread so I figured I'd start a Topic and see if enough people are interested. If people like the idea I'll fill out a submission forum ;D.

So basically I was thinking of a place for people to talk about homo/transphobia experiences at conventions. I also was thinking of talking about homophobia within manga/anime itself. Anybody have any thoughts or suggestions? Would they be interested in attending?

Offline TanisNikana

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 07:47:32 pm »
I haven't encountered any myself. It was kind of strange.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 08:42:48 pm »
Very good topic. However, could it be broadened to general bigotry? Because there's a lot of racism among anime/anime fans as well, and most of that isn't even noticed. Like if a girl asks who she looks like, and the girl is black, everyone says Anthy even though a--the girl may look nothing like Anthy and b--Anthy isn't black anyway, she's more Indian. Granted that's not RACISM OMG but it's more pigeonholing, especially given that most Americans who cosplay anime characters are white rather than Japanese or even any sort of Asian.


But yes, a lot of yaoi fans have noticed homophobia even in our own ranks, fetishizing it and demonizing people who really *are* gay. It happens in yuri as well, and that's even more ingraned.

Another thing that gets me is hetphobia. I mean seriously, we ALL came from het unless you were born in a lab (even test tube babies are the result of het SOMETHING).

Offline TanisNikana

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 08:54:07 pm »
Very good topic. However, could it be broadened to general bigotry? Because there's a lot of racism among anime/anime fans as well, and most of that isn't even noticed. Like if a girl asks who she looks like, and the girl is black, everyone says Anthy even though a--the girl may look nothing like Anthy and b--Anthy isn't black anyway, she's more Indian. Granted that's not RACISM OMG but it's more pigeonholing, especially given that most Americans who cosplay anime characters are white rather than Japanese or even any sort of Asian.


But yes, a lot of yaoi fans have noticed homophobia even in our own ranks, fetishizing it and demonizing people who really *are* gay. It happens in yuri as well, and that's even more ingraned.

Another thing that gets me is hetphobia. I mean seriously, we ALL came from het unless you were born in a lab (even test tube babies are the result of het SOMETHING).
Come to think of it, folks were trying to get me to kiss other guys...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 09:31:03 pm »
Hmm... well I certainly wouldn't be opposed to adding racism to the discussion, but as a bisexual transgender white girl I don't really have much experties there. If somebody wanted to partner with me and people didn't think it would be too off-topic (which I don't think it is) I'd totally be cool with changing the panel to something like "Bigotry, Otakus, and YOU". Thoughts?

Okay so actually, I put some thought into it and I was more thinking of something to the effect of an LGBTQQ meet-up with an agenda based around good/bad convention experiences. If somebody wanted to have a panel that was contiguous (starting right before or right after) based on bigotry in general I'd be totally up to helping, but honestly I'm not sure what anybody could do but "wow that sucks, bad bigots!" XD which I can do right here on the forums if anybody wants me to.

Oh and in reference to something posted by Blackjack I must agree, Anthy is /not/ black, she is most definately Indian. However all the best Anthy cosplayers I've seen have certainly been black girls... I took a picture of one this year who did an /awesome/ job... :\ I wish I could run into an actually Indian Akio next year at the cons. /Utena fangirling
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:44:29 pm by murder_of_raven »

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 09:43:16 pm »
Yah, a general look at bigotry would be vurry good, so we can touch on all types of bases and feel complete. I've always wanted to really find out why people love to hate furries so much. They're just people dressed as animals, guys! Eesh. Anyhoo, I'll totes go to this!

Edit: Oh! Well I guess a LGBTQQ meet-up would be cool too!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 08:51:32 am by Winfred »

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 01:54:41 am »
I informed our yahoo group of this potential panel. I believe everyone should feel equally welcome within the con community. Sometimes people claim they have some kind of right to some kind of bias based on some kind of religion. I imagine my diction there indicates how much I believe that to be abusive. Obviously I care about people's religious freedom too or I wouldn't be on the Religion in Anime and Manga panel. However my personal bias is I find it difficult to believe that there could be any valid reason within a religion to justify any form of bias, bigotry, or exclusion. To me that's a slippery slope that leads to genocide (my family's Jewish and my Gramma may she rest in peace had to hide from a Pogrom which was a pre-Nazi-era anti-Semitic murderous mob).
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Offline Schlofin

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 01:43:24 pm »
I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

Offline Rathany

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 02:36:14 pm »
I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

Those in charge of what?  The con?  The country?  Please be specific.  As an '08 exec I would never have allowed tolerence of any homophobia, transphobia, bigotry, etc.  at ANY level of power at the con. 
As for attendees, we can't exectly do a quick bigot test at registration.  People taking the initiative to have lots of meetups and gay/bi/poly/trans/genderqueer/etc panels at our convention would help make it really clear to everyone what the vastly prevailing feeling of the convention is. 

I understand your anger, but in the case of this con, I don't think that it's TPTB who are causing the problem.  Though, we could be doing more to fix it. 
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Offline Schlofin

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 03:16:53 pm »
I agree this would be a very good panel. The bigotry is fine with me or even homophobia as I personally experienced it at this years KCon from staff. Yes I am a Gay White Guy so other than homophobia I do not have a lot to contribute but I would love to see this be a panel next year and I think we really need to show a true point to those in charge next year that this is B******t and we are not going to put up with it any more!
All right my rant is over.

Those in charge of what?  The con?  The country?  Please be specific.  As an '08 exec I would never have allowed tolerence of any homophobia, transphobia, bigotry, etc.  at ANY level of power at the con. 
As for attendees, we can't exectly do a quick bigot test at registration.  People taking the initiative to have lots of meetups and gay/bi/poly/trans/genderqueer/etc panels at our convention would help make it really clear to everyone what the vastly prevailing feeling of the convention is. 

I understand your anger, but in the case of this con, I don't think that it's TPTB who are causing the problem.  Though, we could be doing more to fix it. 


Well lets start with those in charge of the con, and we can move onward from that... But the issues I personally experienced were from a few Yojimbo's guarding the 18+ panel doors and one or two of the higher ups. For the most part if I gave my partner a quick peck on the con floor we got more cheers from attendees than negitive comments.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 05:04:22 pm »
Do you remember who they were or what they looked like?

Offline Schlofin

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2008, 06:14:29 pm »
Unfortunately the Yojimbo's I am not sure who they were I just know they were the ones staffed on the second floor during the Yaoi Panel on Saturday night and the History of Yaoi Panel on Sunday. I know the main higher up was the Con-Chair during the charity auction who seemed rather disturbed that I won one of the dates with Johnny from the Slants which I just bid on to give money to the charity and gave the date to the maid who wanted that date, once he heard that I gave up the date he seemed rather relieved. I just got the feeling that he did not like the idea of a male winning the date but maybe it was Johnny feeling uncomfortable not positive on which way that was going. That is about all I can remember.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 06:26:36 pm »
Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

Offline Hazuza

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 06:32:52 pm »
Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

He /did/ suck it up. He went with it, didn't he? =/

If you were going to go on a date with a random person who you didn't really like all that much, (regardless of gender) you'd be slightly uneasy as well.

*offtopic rant over*

Edited twice because I'm bad at wording things =w=
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 06:58:38 pm by Hazuza »

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2008, 06:46:36 pm »
my question is would this be an 18+ event?
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2008, 08:36:54 pm »
my question is would this be an 18+ event?

No, absolutely not. Honestly, I dislike the tendency to put an 18+ on all LGBTQ related events... and honestly I don't want to hear about people's 18+ LGBTQ related con experiences XD. But seriously, I really would not like to alienate teen LGBTQs, being one this year (tho next year I'll be 18+)

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2008, 08:38:12 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2008, 09:55:45 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

Offline Electronic Pony

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 01:41:09 am »
I would be very interested in attending this panel and think that it is an excellent idea, Raven! You can count me in!

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 06:34:32 am »
I would be very interested in attending this panel and think that it is an excellent idea, Raven! You can count me in!

Double yay! :) In this case I'll be writing up a description as soon as I get around to it (school starts today though so it could be a few days) so you guys can see it before I officially submit it.

Offline Teepet

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 09:57:26 am »
So's this like an anime con GSA?  GSA's good stuff, haha.  This year I didn't actually attend any events, but this one actually sounds pretty interesting.

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 05:25:22 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2008, 05:34:38 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

Offline reppy

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2008, 05:59:37 pm »
So, I guess I'm out of the loop: who at Kumoricon is transgendered? It seems there's a pretty big population and this is a bit of a surprise, albeit a non-issue. I guess I just never noticed before? A person is a person to me, so I'm not going to get down on anyone for what makes them truly happy. However, I do wonder how I never noticed. Either I'm a) stupid or b) the transgendered population at Kcon passes very well.

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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2008, 07:01:25 pm »
So, I guess I'm out of the loop: who at Kumoricon is transgendered? It seems there's a pretty big population and this is a bit of a surprise, albeit a non-issue. I guess I just never noticed before? A person is a person to me, so I'm not going to get down on anyone for what makes them truly happy. However, I do wonder how I never noticed. Either I'm a) stupid or b) the transgendered population at Kcon passes very well.

Well remember the difference between transgender and transexual. Whereas a transexual is pursuing (albeit possibly very slowly) physical transformation, transgender is entirely a mental thing and some transgendered people don't actually feel the need to dress their mental genders, or are too embarassed to do so on a regular basis (I'd fall into that category). So methinks trans (both transexuals and transgender) are easy to either lump in with the crossplayers like yourself, or they pass so well nobody notices. :D I like to think I'm in the former but hell, who am I kidding?


And yes. It'll be something like a convention GSA. But perhaps with buttons. And if we can get away with it perhaps unofficial cookies. XD Which I will refer to as such.

Offline Teepet

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2008, 07:16:24 pm »
Haha because official cookies are really hard to get approved.  :P

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2008, 08:15:23 pm »
Some actually simply don't think in terms of gender at all. Not in the selection of their partners, and not in their conceptualization of themselves. I'd love to envision a world beyond gender. Anyone read Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy? (What can I say I used to teach Women's Studies 101 at a University...no really.)

There are also people who are intersexed, though those whom I know aren't involved in KC (but for example our old pirate LARP had an officer who was MTF and a friend who was intersexed). Intersexed used to be called hermaphrodite...basically biologically being both sexes at birth even if surgically "reassigned" to one gender or another shortly after birth.

Basically I think it all comes down to getting rid of false dichotomies. Folks who are bi (or pan) sexual dispel the myth that there are only two sexual orientations. Folks who are intersexed and trans(G or S) disprove the myth that there are only two genders. In this Western culture with Christianity as the prevailing influence there is a lot of black/white, right/wrong thinking. In Eastern cultures with Buddhism as a prevailing influence there are often more shades of gray along continua. Perhaps this is one of many reasons that we are blessed with manga and anime that have such fluid concepts of gender identity and sexual identity.
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Offline Lily

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2008, 08:52:15 pm »
Assuming I attend next year and get reappointed as Con Suite Manager, I'd attend that panel in a heartbeat if I could find someone to cover the suite during that time. I missed the Yuri panel this year, and that was the one panel that I would have liked to get to. But Con responsibilities come first :)

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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2008, 08:56:52 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2008, 08:59:10 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

I'LL MAKE BROWNIES. *highfive* Oh dang, best catered panel yet?!

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2008, 09:01:13 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

I'LL MAKE BROWNIES. *highfive* Oh dang, best catered panel yet?!

nice xD *high fives back* all the other panels will be green with envy!we will need milk though ._.
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline Lily

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2008, 09:08:43 pm »
Or a case of ramune? <g>
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2008, 09:09:24 pm »
hmmm we could ask the uwaji stand if we could get a special deal if we baught a few cases.... : o
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Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2008, 09:12:05 pm »
YES, excellent! And I'll steal a dairy cow for milk if I have to! THIS WILL WORK.

So! Will there be any con games planned for this? For an opener and/or closer, that could be fuuuuun.

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2008, 09:17:21 pm »
xD Ok I'm making cookies, Winfred is making brownies, and we are stealing a cow for milk

and hmm games are a good idea ._.
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Offline Lily

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2008, 09:22:15 pm »
So...back to a semi-serious section of this topic...

I think there should be designated safe space at Con...or at least a place of refuge that "family" knows about. If I do Con Suite next year, I'd be willing to let that be the place, if the directors don't veto it. Not as a hang-out, mind you. But if safe space is truly needed in a situation, that could be an option. 
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2008, 09:24:12 pm »
Hmm that could be a very good idea, also if we get any abuse from any homophobic staff perhaps we should have a way to contact whos in charge of the staff about it?
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Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2008, 10:51:36 pm »
There ought to be a way to report *any* abuse to the higher-ups. If there isn't, that's really a strange omission.

And ideally, shouldn't *all* the con be a designated safe space?

Offline Rathany

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2008, 11:05:45 pm »
If you have any complaint and don't know where to go, go to the Chair or the Vice Chair.  Just choose whichever you are more comfortable talking to. 
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Offline Lily

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2008, 11:09:54 pm »
No doubt there is an official way to report any incidents. I'm not an exec, I don't know what it is.

And yes, in a perfect world, all the con should be safe space. But staff can't and shouldn't have to police attendees' every remark, ya know?


There ought to be a way to report *any* abuse to the higher-ups. If there isn't, that's really a strange omission.

And ideally, shouldn't *all* the con be a designated safe space?
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Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2008, 11:34:04 pm »
Um.  If I go next year, I will definitely attend this.  If I have a booth, I will abandon my booth to attend this. 

I think it's fairly important for people to understand the difference between yaoi/yuri in manga and real life gay relationships... I've experienced a lot of homophobia, not necessarily targetted at me or anyone in particular, from yaoi fans and I just can't understand this at all. 

One quick note... You tend to see in anime/manga male characters pinning done other men in a fight or something, and then others see and misunderstand this situation and blah blah blah you know the drill.  Would we be talking about this at all?  One or two times it's funny, but after awhile it just starts to feel like poking fun at the possibility that two men might be gay, even if they're not. 
lol peer pressure

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Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2008, 11:51:01 pm »
I think that would happen in het more often if there were more mixed-gender fights shown, but there's still that stigma of men fighting women (disregarding how powerful the woman is or how much combat training she's had, which I think is considerably more sexist than showing a guy fighting her, since it removes all consideration of her strength and looks only at her sex, but I digress). But anyway, I think that's why it seems exclusively male/male.

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2008, 12:11:21 am »
If you're responding to me, my bigger issue is that two men can't be within three feet of eachother without being gay... And also, since it's a humorous situation, I can easily imagine a guy questioning his sexuality being more reluctant to be honest with himself or at least think it over logically since gay scenes in "normal" anime are usually just for comedy value.
lol peer pressure

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Offline reppy

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2008, 12:25:50 am »
OK, so I don't know if it's really been discussed in-depth but what is the main focus of this event? For instance, would a straight person visiting find it captivating or ..?  The prospect of cookies and milk has me intrigued.  :P
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 12:26:29 am by reppy »

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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2008, 04:20:32 pm »
My plan for the "main focus" is con-stories related to the LGBTQ community, and to a lesser extent anime stories. I also would like to talk about the difference between yaoi/yuri and real life homosexuality, homo/transphobia within anime, and LGBTQ people in the anime industry (I'll be bringing in a few Plica strips, for those of you who are unfortunate enough not to have read it).

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2008, 04:28:17 pm »
what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:

sometimes the male Yuri fans see lesbian/bi girls as a chance for their real life hentai and I find that just as offensive as homophobia. also is it me or are yaoi fans actualy more homophobic of lesbian/bi girls than they are of gay/bi guys?
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2008, 04:37:22 pm »
what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:

sometimes the male Yuri fans see lesbian/bi girls as a chance for their real life hentai and I find that just as offensive as homophobia. also is it me or are yaoi fans actualy more homophobic of lesbian/bi girls than they are of gay/bi guys?

Actually sexual objectification is certainly a form of homophobia, and I'm sure we'll talk about at in the panel. And yes, guys like that piss me off just as much as girls like that (and yes I've /watched/ gay couples paid to make-out in front of yaoi fans).

And I'd really like to keep from making generalizations about anybody, even homophobic people. But personally I have interacted more with sexual objectification than actual homophobia when it comes to people who openly describe themselves as yuri/yaoi fans.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2008, 04:42:25 pm »
huh I see... ._.

I find it kinda sad that some people would demote to making out with their partner in front of others for a bit of money or something ): It's degrading and I'm insulted that some people think we wouldnt mind because we kiss our partners anyways....

Oh well this well be an interesting (and aprently well catored) panel :3
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2008, 06:36:23 pm »
huh I see... ._.

I find it kinda sad that some people would demote to making out with their partner in front of others for a bit of money or something ): It's degrading and I'm insulted that some people think we wouldnt mind because we kiss our partners anyways....

Oh well this well be an interesting (and aprently well catored) panel :3

Well I think some homosexual couples feel that kumoricon is the only time that they're idolized instead of looked down upon. But yeah, it weirds me out too though :P

XD lol and yes, apparantly it will be.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2008, 06:57:05 pm »
what really makes me mad sometimes isnt as much the homophobie, but sometimes the yuri fans want you to fanservice for them...

a boy once asked if i would let him take a picture of me and my girlfriend making out if he gave me 20 bucks... i found that just insulting. D:


Its also a form of prostitution/solicitation. For the record.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 06:58:06 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2008, 07:04:07 pm »
Also on a side note: this year we did not have a ton of interest in people wanting to run panels of this nature. It came down to me, Marie (yaoi pannelist) and a couple others. I could personally only run so many lol. I ran the Hentai, Yuri, and Speed Dating (non orientation specific) and would love to see people run more 'non adult' panels. I was thrilled to see the shoujo ai/shounen ai panel but unfortuntatly that didnt go so well due to comunication issues. By all means ANYONE who wants to seriously run a acceptance panel for all ages please do. I would have loved to but as the Adult Content Content cordinator for this year I couldnt run everything I wanted to. *cry* And I wont be in this possiton next year (due to a wonderful new baby on the way) so by all means feel free to expand ideas or ask questions. :)
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2008, 07:07:20 pm »
Heehee, I'm now president of the Anime Club Marie ran in high school. :D I really like her.

But yes, count me in on this one, I will definately be doing a LGBTQ Meet-up panel at next year's Kumoricon. <3

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2008, 07:33:35 pm »
Heehee, I'm now president of the Anime Club Marie ran in high school. :D I really like her.

But yes, count me in on this one, I will definately be doing a LGBTQ Meet-up panel at next year's Kumoricon. <3

yay :3 Hmm wonder how many cookies I will have to make....

This will probelly be a popular panel : o hmm... *thinking* That is a LOT of cookies to bake.

and thanks for making this all ages :3 I havent been able to attend some panels I wanted to in the past because of the 18 rule and the curfew
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2008, 07:40:25 pm »
Heehee, I'm now president of the Anime Club Marie ran in high school. :D I really like her.

But yes, count me in on this one, I will definately be doing a LGBTQ Meet-up panel at next year's Kumoricon. <3

yay :3 Hmm wonder how many cookies I will have to make....

This will probelly be a popular panel : o hmm... *thinking* That is a LOT of cookies to bake.

and thanks for making this all ages :3 I havent been able to attend some panels I wanted to in the past because of the 18 rule and the curfew

If you need help making cookies let me know this is one gay boy that would love to help see this have a huge turn-out! Anything I can do from Seattle to help make this be one of the best panels to date please let me know.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2008, 07:51:51 pm »
^ xD from the way I see this panel going I may just take you up on that offer :3 Course I wont start baking till about a day before the con so they will be as fresh as I can get them :3 My familey has a recipe we made from scratch for some of the best chocolate chips....

course varity is needed xD Ill think of a few more...

but yeah this panel will be awomse <3
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2008, 07:58:31 pm »
I am allergic to all but white chocolate (which is technically not chocolate) so I make killer white choc macadamia nut cookies and some pretty killer snicker doodles. I usually leave for Kcon on Friday so unless someone near the con wants to loan me a kitchen mine will probably be baked on Thursday night.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2008, 08:02:20 pm »
sniker doodles are good ;3

I find it fitting that the panel dedicated to homophia/biphobia/ect is getting all the good cookies xD It almost seems a bit like the cookies are a consolation to me
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2008, 08:06:48 pm »
SO have we decided if this is going to just be LBGT or is it going to be all forms of discrimination (homophobia, racism, ageism, etc.) in con settings?

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2008, 08:28:27 pm »
SO have we decided if this is going to just be LBGT or is it going to be all forms of discrimination (homophobia, racism, ageism, etc.) in con settings?

Yah, it's just gonna be a LBGT thing, unless we also have a discrimination in con settings panel right before or after this one so things flow real nice together. I'd be interested in attending a discrimination panel, if someone would like to run it...*coughcough* Learning new things, yo!

Also don't forget the brownies that's be there! =O And dairy and soy milk toooo! Eeee baked goods and associated beverages! *fangirls out*

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2008, 08:34:26 pm »
cant run it to busy with my table in teh AA this year...

yeah brownies : D yay! this will be very very fun, how are we going to get all the milk though?
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2008, 08:43:01 pm »
Carefull guys, you are going to have to run the food ideas across the 2009 facilities liaison to ask the hotel about. We had to fight tooth and nails to get neko-pan at the double tree. Dont get your hopes up too high in case the hotel wont allow it. I would suggest waiting till after elections then run it by them.

*not trying to be a downer but its true....*
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2008, 08:45:33 pm »
If we can chip in like $20 each we can probably get the school lunch sized cartons of milk and either soy or rice milk from Safeway or somewhere similar and if we get like 10 people to chip in that should be plenty of liquidy goodness for cookies and stuff. I have no objections to doing that. Now I am not a public speaker so don't ask me to participate at the head of the panel but I have no problems helping out in the background.

Offline kurosakiichigo666

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2008, 08:47:21 pm »
Is this gonna be a "OMG this guy was hitting on me and it was horrible" kind of thing or a "I heard this guy gaybashing at con and I was so irritated" thing? If it's the latter then I'm totally going.
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2008, 08:50:18 pm »
Carefull guys, you are going to have to run the food ideas across the 2009 facilities liaison to ask the hotel about. We had to fight tooth and nails to get neko-pan at the double tree. Dont get your hopes up too high in case the hotel wont allow it. I would suggest waiting till after elections then run it by them.

*not trying to be a downer but its true....*

If the hotel will not allow us to bring our own in we may have to change tactics... I was not even thinking about health codes. We may have to get the hotel to do everything which means $$$$$$$$$. If we can get the con to lets us do that and pay out of our own pockets but that may get pricey!

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2008, 08:51:19 pm »
Deviant: Point taken... but would they really object to home made cookies and brownies for a panel? ._.

Schlofin: Hmm... a tend to be decent at public speaking but I'm not the one runnin this... not sure about the milk thing though

Kuro: Its the later :3
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2008, 08:52:26 pm »
Is this gonna be a "OMG this guy was hitting on me and it was horrible" kind of thing or a "I heard this guy gaybashing at con and I was so irritated" thing? If it's the latter then I'm totally going.

My thoughts in where this is going is the later / your own personal experiences of homophobia in the con. But please everyone else chip in on this question.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2008, 08:59:06 pm »
Deviant: Point taken... but would they really object to home made cookies and brownies for a panel? ._.

Absolutly. Like I said we had to fight tooth and nail to get nekopan and we only got it because their hotel chefs cant make the same things. (and they owed us for other contract blunders that will remain unnamed) If we want things they can provide like cookies and milk than they will probably say you can only buy it from us. I dont know much about the hilton but all hotels are the same. They want to make their money too. They will more than likely require the convention to pay for catering for the event. Which we did do this year but we had to charge an admission fee to the panel room to pay for it. If you think the panel will generate ticket sales of probably $5 a person we might be able to afford it. Like I said I would talk to the new Programming director and the Facilities Liaison to see what can be done.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 09:00:23 pm by Deviant Spider »
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2008, 09:06:49 pm »
hmm well to charge people to come in I dont find fair. everyone should enjoy the panel regardless of payment or no.

Wait is that why the tea party had to charge this year? ._.
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2008, 09:23:26 pm »
yes. It was hotel catered. There was no way around it.
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2008, 09:31:35 pm »
yay :3 then i will be able to attend!

Oh good news! ^___~ Well it'll be at least you and me then, aye?

and of course many others :3

But of course! I imagine the room overflowing, easily. Unless we get a real big room, but only maybe. ALSO let's make cool buttons for those who attend. And cookies! Oh man I'm exciting about it way too early.

I can make cookies : D

I'LL MAKE BROWNIES. *highfive* Oh dang, best catered panel yet?!

nice xD *high fives back* all the other panels will be green with envy!we will need milk though ._.

YO! I just learned to make BANANA BREAD!!!!

and before neko pan i was the kcon cookie lady cuz i would bring cookies to meetings(tho this last years meeting scedule sux for me) i made blue snickerdoodles and tome called them snickerbluedles we could make rainbow snickerdoodles,
I think this is a great pannel idea, forevery one, I have a friend who is into japanese culture and transgender and i bet something like this could lure her to con.
One topic i would like to go into is why under age girls are obsessed with yaoi? when i went to Japan a bunch of them from the forums wanted me to buy them naughty yaoi stuff and its like waa?? when i was your age guys were still icky (no offence)
I have always had an open mind when it comes to dinffernces in people, I think it is because my family is primary natie american and I dont look it, so I was always seemed to be treated like less of one, even by teachers in school.  I know the way I feel when I see somthing native american made fun of, i wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone, be it take the form of racism or homophobia,

there is still that double standerd tho, that gets things blurry like when talking about tribes problems, my mom can say "there are too many chiefs and not enough indians" its okay cuz she IS a member of a tribe.  Like some gay or lesbian terms can be used by gays and lesbians and not be offence, said by some one who is not and they are.

I deverge from topic, on the milk topic, we are allowed to carry drinks right? who is to say if some of us just happen to have a milk craving and just happen to be carrying gallons of milk...and dixie cups.... ;)
coincidence like that happen to me...alot some times... ;D
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 09:32:35 pm by superjaz »
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Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2008, 10:24:29 pm »
^yeah, some one could suddenly have a craving for milk and maybe I would just happen to have a few cartons, and cookies ;3 oh and dixie cups
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Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2008, 10:38:28 pm »
Oh Superjaz, you're my favorite person ever. ^-^

Well, whatever we must do to get us some nummy snacks, we must do, for we shall UNDOUBTEDLY PREVAIL despite any obstacles placed before us! Yeah! Now who'd like to be in charge of asking Official People what we'd be allowed to do, food-wise? Not it! Also, is anyone adverse to LBGTQ-related games possibly played too? As in, to warm us up for discussion? It's not like I know any good games, but I'd imagine it might be nice!

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2008, 11:10:17 pm »
:) I was hoping someone would catch that...
Technically we cant know you are doing it cause then we have to let the hotel know. But there ARE loop holes.... :) :)
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2008, 11:47:07 pm »
Talking about people in production, we have to bring up transgen voice actress Maddie Blaustein, who's made of win and awesome (you may know her as the main 4Kids voice for Meowth). She's also a photographer and a comic book writer (she created Rubber Band Man for Static Shock).

She was inspired to come out by a very interesting place--an episode of Pokémon detailing Meowth's past. He changed entirely who he was to impress another Meowth, and the whole thing backfired. So Blaustein decided basically that she wasn't about to keep saying she was someone she wasn't, and came out to her coworkers. And I know they have a bad reputation in their *production*, but she said the people at 4Kids were nothing but awesome and supportive to her in person.

I can find the exact post where she said all this, if you want, but it'll take some digging (she used to come to the Pokémon board where I work, after the show went from them to PUSA).



Also, is it really *necessarily* homophobia to ask a cosplay couple to kiss for you? I mean, they could turn around and ask a het pair to do the same (and I *have* seen that done). Sure it's objectifying, but you can be an equal opportunity objectifyer.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 11:48:43 pm by BlackjackGabbiani »

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2008, 12:12:44 am »
 A very big issue that just drive me up a bloody friggen wall, is not so much 'homphobia' as the double standard.

In society, yuri is generally accepted as 'hawt' and Yaoi is 'gross'.

I have recently noticed even at cons, bitching to no extent about the OMG HUGE EXCESS of Yaoi over Yuri.
First of all, that's flat out not true. ( some of the fans are just more ..vocal)
Second of all, suggestive, and just plain explicit content with women is in every form media and is not even given a second thought.
 Yaoi is at conventions, one weekend a year. Yet  still isn't very well accepted.

More so on the subject of double standards is that it is just a fact of life that most guys HATE yaoi and find it disgusting. Yet ALL girls are supposed to like Yuri. If you don't your an hateful discriminator.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2008, 11:47:56 am »
Okay, replies on several things...

Is this gonna be a "OMG this guy was hitting on me and it was horrible" kind of thing or a "I heard this guy gaybashing at con and I was so irritated" thing? If it's the latter then I'm totally going.

My thoughts in where this is going is the later / your own personal experiences of homophobia in the con. But please everyone else chip in on this question.
As the person organizing this panel, I have to say that was basically what I had in mind.

On foods: I agree, whose to say why we randomly showed up with food? Hell, I carry food on me at the Con all the time. So let's just drop it for now.

On LGBTQ Games: Yes I know a few. We could always start with Gender Gummy, :3 I do so love doing that one.

On Maddie Blaustein: Zomg I have heard absolutely nothing about that. ^__^ Thank you so much, please remember to bring that up during the discussion.

To TheifKingsHier: As a yuri fan I think I can provide the counterpoints you apparantly are looking for. Yuri is /not/ generally accepted as "hawt", however a small number of creepy guys and most of the yaoi fandom think it is. Yuri, both in Japan and the US, has always been the carefully overlooked little sister of yaoi, rarely recieving it's own place in anything but fanservice anime. So comparitively, there is an excess of yaoi over yuri, although personally I think that's a problem with there not being enough yuri rather than too much yaoi. And no, I think numbers of guys who hate yaoi are pretty much equal to girls who hate yuri, there are just more yaoi fans to be upset about yaoi haters.

Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2008, 01:22:37 pm »

To TheifKingsHier: As a yuri fan I think I can provide the counterpoints you apparantly are looking for. Yuri is /not/ generally accepted as "hawt", however a small number of creepy guys and most of the yaoi fandom think it is. Yuri, both in Japan and the US, has always been the carefully overlooked little sister of yaoi, rarely recieving it's own place in anything but fanservice anime. So comparitively, there is an excess of yaoi over yuri, although personally I think that's a problem with there not being enough yuri rather than too much yaoi. And no, I think numbers of guys who hate yaoi are pretty much equal to girls who hate yuri, there are just more yaoi fans to be upset about yaoi haters.

 No, that's the same absurd argument I hear over and over.
 I will give it you as far as Manga goes, but even then it's shonen ai, not, yaoi.

 I was looking for a  new and less ridiculous response, one that can actually be backed up or seen on a regular basis in society.



Thought maybe I could get one hear, or at the panel but I guess not.




« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:34:19 pm by ThiefKingsHier »

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2008, 01:35:04 pm »
No, that's the same absurd argument I hear over and over. I was looking for a less ridiculous response, one that can actually be baked up.

Thought maybe I could get one hear, or at the panel but I guess not.

Please don't be rude. I was sharing my opinion, not arguing with you. And I don't really like being told my opinion is rediculous, just as I'm sure you wouldn't have liked it if I'd said that about yours.

You obviously have very strong opinions about this, what could I have said (other than agreeing with you) that wouldn't have insulted you? Would you like me to elaborate on some point?

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2008, 01:43:18 pm »
I will give it you as far as Manga goes, but even then it's shonen ai, not, yaoi.

Okay well if we're only talking about hentai than I suppose you are right. But really, the yuri fandom isn't very connected to the majority of yuri hentai (the only one that has been excepted that I can think of is Shoujo Sect, and it has a plot and isn't tacked onto het-hentai).

So yes, if you'd like to only look at pornography, it would seem that as there are predominantly men watching it (although those numbers are quickly changing), and often close-minded men not even esp attached to the anime community, it would make sense they were less than welcoming towards yaoi.

But yes, if we want to talk further about specifically "yaoi" or "yuri" (I'm refering to the American neologism meaning "pornographic" and not the Japanese use of them as umbrella terms) I'd prefer to move it to another board with an 18+ so that we don't scare off youngsters.

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #79 on: September 06, 2008, 09:30:27 pm »
I am a girl and i have never had any big liking of yuri, the closest would be my fandom of the singer Gackt, because he can look pretty feminin at times, i have heard some guys say they would go gay for gackt, and i counter with his looks does that mean i would go lesbian for gackt?
on yaoi,  some yaoi, where they take masculin anime characters and have them chibi-fied and eatting cakes and drinking tea, i find amusing dont ask me why, guys have every right to have tea n cakes too.

on seprate note my friend lets her 5 year old son paint his nails blue on the bases that he wants to and what she going to tell him hes a boy so no?
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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2008, 10:52:08 pm »
I am a girl and i have never had any big liking of yuri, the closest would be my fandom of the singer Gackt, because he can look pretty feminin at times, i have heard some guys say they would go gay for gackt, and i counter with his looks does that mean i would go lesbian for gackt?
on yaoi,  some yaoi, where they take masculin anime characters and have them chibi-fied and eatting cakes and drinking tea, i find amusing dont ask me why, guys have every right to have tea n cakes too.

on seprate note my friend lets her 5 year old son paint his nails blue on the bases that he wants to and what she going to tell him hes a boy so no?

Lol go lesbian for Gackt? XD Not sure what can I say to that.

Heehee yep, that's pretty much exactly my kind of yaoi (see Pico to Chico)

<3 aww how cute. well methinks that's a sign of a good parent. and an adorable child :3

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2008, 12:12:22 am »
Uhhh... Just pitching in HAY I have a food handler's license (that looks like it's spelled wrong...) for Oregon, and by the end of this school year I'll be getting another license which will last 5 years which basically allows me to cook/handle food anywhere in the US.  If I go next year I'd be happy to make cookies, so the only problem I can see is trying to find a commercial kitchen. 

And my church would probably let us use their kitchen, as they seem pretty gay-friendly.  And if not just saying, "It's for an anime convention" isn't really lying....

I'll know if I'm going or not in the next couple of weeks (maybe even tomorrow), so.  8D;;;

Also, I've always noticed a lot more yaoi than yuri. :/ Generally, female con-goers are more alright with gay men than lesbians from what I've seen (I hear "I'm okay with it as long as they don't hit on me!!!!" a lot, which seems a bit homophobic in my opinion.) Almost all straight guys tend to like yuri because T****SOMES ARE HOT!!!!! and GAY GUYS ARE YUCKY!!!!, so I think it kinda depends on the gender of the person.  (Of course, there are always wo/men more tolerant than the rest of their sex.)

and i'm going to ask out this girl i've liked for months in a couple weeks... wish me luck 8D;;;
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline Schlofin

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2008, 10:07:40 am »
Uhhh... Just pitching in HAY I have a food handler's license (that looks like it's spelled wrong...) for Oregon, and by the end of this school year I'll be getting another license which will last 5 years which basically allows me to cook/handle food anywhere in the US.  If I go next year I'd be happy to make cookies, so the only problem I can see is trying to find a commercial kitchen. 

And my church would probably let us use their kitchen, as they seem pretty gay-friendly.  And if not just saying, "It's for an anime convention" isn't really lying....

I'll know if I'm going or not in the next couple of weeks (maybe even tomorrow), so.  8D;;;

Also, I've always noticed a lot more yaoi than yuri. :/ Generally, female con-goers are more alright with gay men than lesbians from what I've seen (I hear "I'm okay with it as long as they don't hit on me!!!!" a lot, which seems a bit homophobic in my opinion.) Almost all straight guys tend to like yuri because T****SOMES ARE HOT!!!!! and GAY GUYS ARE YUCKY!!!!, so I think it kinda depends on the gender of the person.  (Of course, there are always wo/men more tolerant than the rest of their sex.)

and i'm going to ask out this girl i've liked for months in a couple weeks... wish me luck 8D;;;

The issue with the cookies and milk is going to be that the hotel cooks can make them as opposed to the health regs in this situation. You know the hotel wants to make money.

Also I agree with the comment on Yuri for the _____somes, as a gay man I run into this not just in cons but out in the real world. I go out with my lez friends and they get hit on for being lez and guys trying to get them into ______somes. Then the turn around and call me f***t and other negitive euphemisms to my face in front of them.

Finally I wish you a whole lot of luck with that!!! You GO!

Offline Simon Young

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2008, 02:22:53 am »
Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

He /did/ suck it up. He went with it, didn't he? =/

If you were going to go on a date with a random person who you didn't really like all that much, (regardless of gender) you'd be slightly uneasy as well.

*offtopic rant over*

Edited twice because I'm bad at wording things =w=

Super long thread, but I thought I'd clear this up real quick as a member of the band.

Both Johnny and I were completely open to the idea that whoever won would be the winner, fair and square. It's a friendly outgoing that will help Kumoricon as well as an incredible charity so we decided to do it no matter what the results were.

~simon

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2008, 07:05:16 pm »
First to the band member:
That's awesome that you took the time to post, and that you'd have been open to whatever for a good cause.
P:EAR helps a lot of homeless kids, and having been homeless myself, I'm all for it.

Second to m-o-r: Wow, can you believe, 6 pages in this thread and still going strong? And people already looking forward to and making elaborate plans for next year's shindig? I'm so glad I noticed the crossplay bathroom thread and proposed you take the logical next step; it's actually one of the things I'm happiest in life about presently :)

Now: what on earth is Gender Gummy???
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
2007, 8, 9, 10: Fan Creation Manager. 2011: Writing & Editing Coord (Publicity).

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2008, 08:03:53 pm »
First to the band member:
That's awesome that you took the time to post, and that you'd have been open to whatever for a good cause.
P:EAR helps a lot of homeless kids, and having been homeless myself, I'm all for it.

Second to m-o-r: Wow, can you believe, 6 pages in this thread and still going strong? And people already looking forward to and making elaborate plans for next year's shindig? I'm so glad I noticed the crossplay bathroom thread and proposed you take the logical next step; it's actually one of the things I'm happiest in life about presently :)

Now: what on earth is Gender Gummy???

Yes I must second that first part. Amazing dedication to actually be around to defend you guy's integrity and doubly amazing you guys were willing to go so far for charity. <3

0_0 I know! Seriously, I figured this would sort of fall off the map. As it stands, I'm going to have to start a new thread right before Kumoricon rolls along with the actual panel name and description so we don't lose people who don't want to go through 6+pages! ^__^ And yes, I'm very glad too, I'm seriously looking forward to running this (I'd always dreampt of running a panel).

Basically Gender Gummy (or previously called "Gumby" but changed when legal action was taken) is a /very/ simple game designed to show that Gender and Sexuality are completely independent and coexist on a wide spectrum.... really just basic Gender Psychology applied to a little game. :3 But I think it'll be a great first activity to get things started... if it doesn't make sense here I'm sure you'll understand after the panel.

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2008, 08:09:43 pm »
Woo the Slants! *highfive*

See? See? Talking about food n' catering wasn't so bad after all! Awesoooome! And that shouldn't be what I'm most looking forward in this panel, but it IS.   =D Also way to be vague about what Gender Gummy is! But I'll find out eventually~!

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2008, 09:07:15 pm »
xD I'm so looking forward to this Raven you rock for orginizin this :3 I will help as much as I can if you need it

Now I'm thinking I'm going to be drawing some Shounene -ai and shojo ai for my AA table... *ebil grin* Oh the profets... oh the fun... oh the parings I can make! *insert cackle here* none of them are safe!
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2008, 09:20:14 pm »
Then this Johnny should suck it up and accept that the bidding was open to everybody.

He /did/ suck it up. He went with it, didn't he? =/

If you were going to go on a date with a random person who you didn't really like all that much, (regardless of gender) you'd be slightly uneasy as well.

*offtopic rant over*


Edited twice because I'm bad at wording things =w=



Super long thread, but I thought I'd clear this up real quick as a member of the band.

Both Johnny and I were completely open to the idea that whoever won would be the winner, fair and square. It's a friendly outgoing that will help Kumoricon as well as an incredible charity so we decided to do it no matter what the results were.

~simon

And also on a side note as I was on the stage when this was going down. The man who won just wanted to donate to charity, he gave the date to the girl who bid next highest. He claimed his boyfriend would have a problem with it. It was really cute. It didnt seem like Simon was any more nervous than he would have been with anyone else. Id be nervous as heck to be bid on by random strangers of either gender! :) (Excited but still nervous...)
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2008, 10:14:49 pm »
I'm all for Gummy then :P

We could bring gummy bears and give them out to winners?
:P

BTW: Given that I'll be running 2 rooms and also a panelist (Religion....) I'll have to try to finesse myself a break from the CS to attend....we'll see.....
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
2007, 8, 9, 10: Fan Creation Manager. 2011: Writing & Editing Coord (Publicity).

Offline superjaz

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2008, 10:28:42 pm »
Also, I've always noticed a lot more yaoi than yuri. :/ Generally, female con-goers are more alright with gay men than lesbians from what I've seen (I hear "I'm okay with it as long as they don't hit on me!!!!"
this makes me think of when a friend of mine was trying to get me to go to a gay bar with some girlfriends of hers because one had broken up with her girl friend and needed cheering up, i duno i just felt it would be like i was missrepresenting myself tho not nessacerily on the gay issue but as i am not a big dancer-bar goer, in the first place, and second I'm in a relationship and I hold fidelity in the hightest, (I have a few abandonment issues but i think that happens when you haven't seen your father in 10 years) even when i was pannling to break up with some one, i still didnt consider dating other peeps till i had.

and even after talking this out and reasoning it out could it be I just didnt want to go to a gay bar where I might be hit on?
when I was in Japan the apartment head, a student named asuka, really pretty 18 years old, when I was walking and talking with her at one time she held my hand and was saying "were lovey lovey"
I honestly wonderd what kinda signal did i send out?
then I saw she was like that with guys and girls and felt a little better

oh on the bar note i told my friend i would go out with her once i reached my goal weight of 150 but thats not gonna happen anytime soon stoopid birthcontrol that makes me gain weight as a side effect,
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2008, 06:11:59 pm »
We could bring gummy bears and give them out to winners?
:P

Lol, it's really not the sort of thing you "win" at. :D Actually, the concept is funny if you know what the game is like.... but my girlfriend says it's not really a game it's a "social activity". So yeah, methinks she's right. Sorry for the confusion.

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #92 on: September 10, 2008, 06:36:51 pm »
SPOILERS!

Ah hah, the Internet has kindly shown me what the true meaning of Gender Gummy is! So baaasically, you draw a few lines on the board, labeled as assigned sex, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, and such, and each line acts as a spectrum from male/masculine to androgynous to female/feminine. You mark where you are on each line, connect the dots, then BAM, we see how cool everyone is. In conclusion, hooray for ruining the suspense! =D

Also, this means everyone is the winner, so we all get gummy bears! YAAAAY!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 04:08:24 pm by Winfred »

Offline Schlofin

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #93 on: September 10, 2008, 10:54:23 pm »
Ah hah, the Internet has kindly shown me what the true meaning of Gender Gummy is! So baaasically, you draw a few lines on the board, labeled as assigned sex, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, and such, and each line acts as a spectrum from male/masculine to androgynous to female/feminine. You mark where you are on each line, connect the dots, then BAM, we see how cool everyone is. In conclusion, hooray for ruining the suspense! =D

Also, this means everyone is the winner, so we all get gummy bears! YAAAAY!

Hey next time you do something like that put a spoiler warning at the head! I was looking forward to the suspense and seeing it in the panel.  :'(  But I am excited about gummy bears!

Offline Teepet

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #94 on: September 11, 2008, 12:17:17 am »
There could be a bunch of different kinds of gummy bears (like normal, sour, and umm... tropical, or something) mixed together and then you could be in suspense about what kind you were gunna get.  Oooooh.  ::)

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #95 on: September 11, 2008, 04:11:59 pm »
Ah, sorry! I didn't think the suspense could last a whole year without the truth being revealed at some point during that span! I felt the world had to know! I am a killjoy, I know. *hangs head in shame* But secretly I regret nothing! Bwa ha ha!

And there could be other gummy animals, like worms and fish! Yesssss!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 06:07:24 pm by Winfred »

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #96 on: September 11, 2008, 05:13:51 pm »
Ah, sorry! I didn't think the suspense could last a whole year without the truth being revealed at some point during that span! I felt the world had to know! I am a killjoy, I know. *hangs head in shame*

And there could be other gummy animals, like worms and fish! Yesssss!

Yeah goodjob shannon :\

Lol but really, I wouldn't have wanted everybody to be disappointed or anything. It's only intended as a fun warm-up activity.

Offline superjaz

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #97 on: September 11, 2008, 09:49:14 pm »
oh i have played that tho we called it gender gumby
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2008, 06:50:46 am »
oh i have played that tho we called it gender gumby

Yeah, I mentioned that before. The reason it's not "gumby" anymore is that the organization who made Gumby approached the people who made gender gumby and said it was copywrite infringement. So it had to be changed :\

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2008, 10:49:05 pm »
Sorry for the bump, but this is still being planned, right?
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2008, 12:43:43 am »
Though personally I'll probably be in the Obama get-out-the-vote canvas/phonebank that weekend, if enough of us are going to the KC Mini Con at PSU Nov. 1st, maybe there could be a meet-up?
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
2007, 8, 9, 10: Fan Creation Manager. 2011: Writing & Editing Coord (Publicity).

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2008, 01:20:06 am »
I'd be up for it if I wind up going, since I'm having a Halloween party the day before.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2008, 03:12:47 pm »
Yes yes, of course this panel is still being planned... quite literally in fact. I've been struggling to put into words what I want the panel description to be, so far it goes something like this...

"LGBTQ Meet-up Panel: Are you LGBTQ or an ally? Come hang out in a homophobia-free area and discuss LGTQ experiences related to anime and anime conventions. Also, we're going to play some games and talk about Queer people in the anime/manga industry."

Yeah okay so it needs some work. I'm really tempted to throw "and whether CLAMP are lesbians" onto the end of the last sentense but I fear some people might take offense :D. Any suggestions?

And sadly I'm going to miss the KC Mini Con this year... NaNoWriMo starts that day. :\ Sorry guys.


Heehee, and it occurs to me that if everything works out I'll probably be wearing the same outfit as my icon while I'm running this panel.  :) I suppose I'll be easy to recognize.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 03:14:56 pm by murder_of_raven »

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2008, 09:16:25 pm »
xD i still cant wait

and i would laugh so hard if you tacked the "and wether clamp are lesbians" on the end... if you look at card capotors it may all seem like really incocent but in reality its kinda messed up for a kids thing ._. for one Sakura is in love with a guy like 6 or so years older than her... and shes ten >.> her best friend has a huge crush on her, and their cousins. her mother was like 16 when she married the teacher I think? (Sakuras dad) and then I think she had sakuras brother like one year later O_O and then throw in that syrone is gay for the one guy that Sakura likes.... and then one of sakuras clas smates (another ten year old) is dating their 30 year old teacher.
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2008, 01:08:26 am »
xD i still cant wait

and i would laugh so hard if you tacked the "and wether clamp are lesbians" on the end... if you look at card capotors it may all seem like really incocent but in reality its kinda messed up for a kids thing ._. for one Sakura is in love with a guy like 6 or so years older than her... and shes ten >.> her best friend has a huge crush on her, and their cousins. her mother was like 16 when she married the teacher I think? (Sakuras dad) and then I think she had sakuras brother like one year later O_O and then throw in that syrone is gay for the one guy that Sakura likes.... and then one of sakuras clas smates (another ten year old) is dating their 30 year old teacher.

Well two things are important to remember when it comes to CCS: the characters, while young, are all fairly close to age of consent in Japan (12). And also, CCS is fairly old and until recently such age gaps weren't just accepted in Japan, they were openly romanticized. But yes, very odd.

And Tomoyo and Sakura are only half-cousins, (their mothers were cousins) which of course, is legal right here in the US.

What really throws CLAMP's sexuality into question is their afterwards in Miyuki-chan in Wonderland and the CLAMP Westside/Eastside artbooks, in which they essentially go off on how much they like drawing partially naked women.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 08:43:02 pm by murder_of_raven »

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2008, 09:34:20 pm »
What really throws CLAMP's sexuality into question is their afterwards in Tomoyo-chan in Wonderland and the CLAMP Westside/Eastside artbooks, in which they essentially go off on how much they like drawing partially naked women.

I was about to say, "But I like drawing partially naked women!"

And then I remembered why and that didn't exactly help.
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Racism, Homophobia, (Segregation, maybe?) in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2008, 01:20:07 pm »
After living in Japan for two years and experiencing 'model minority' racism and also overt, legal (in Japan) discrimination such as No-Gai-Jin apartment and hotel ads, I then moved back to the US when the economy here improved a bit, and I ended up in rural, southern Indiana. Sure, only a 30 min drive from Louisville KY where I could meet and hang with SF fans, SCA people and other non-mundanes, but still...

One night in Indiana I saw a real cross-burning. I couldn't believe my eyes. I remember thinking "wait, this is filming for a documentary or something, right?" But no, there it was, burning in the night.

As one community response, in the town library, they put a blank book of lined pages on a pedestal. On the wall facing there was a large Confederate flag. For those who make a distinction, it was the design called (wiki, wiki, google, google, can't find it, never mind,) ... it was the type with the blue 'X' and stars over all-red, like the 'Dukes of Hazzard.' There is another Confederate design with two red bars and a circle of stars in a blue corner, but that's not the one. Anyways, it was the 'X' one. There was a curtain like in a voting booth, so you couldn't see if a visitor wrote in the book or not. And there was a sign between the book and the flag: "What does this symbol mean to YOU?" The book was in a plastic case so you could only write on the one open page at a time. You could not turn pages to flip through other peoples' comments, see who signed, or cross out other stuff.
 
Intriguing idea came to me: Let me write an analogy first, then propose an unusual idea.

When researchers endeavor to create a vaccine for a disease several things happen:
- You have to go get a LIVING SAMPLE.
- You take precautions, like wearing gloves when prepping a specimen, washing your hands, etc.
- You don't kill the specimen with bleach or sterilize it. You need to observe it in its natural habitat to understand how it lives or spreads.
- You wear a mask and a cap so you don't contaminate your own culture into the culture you are trying to observe.
- Lastly, you have to reach out kindly to those who have the disease in order for them to be interested in treatment. Leprosy was never eradicated by stoning them in public, or driving them off into remote colonies, or making them walk around in sack cloths and a bell saying "Unclean - keep away from me!" like in the Middle Ages.)

OK. So: People report that someone we'll call 'person A' observed acts of affection, or closeness, or whatever it was, which triggers in that person a feeling of having a lot less fun at Kumoricon, and SOMETHING caused person A to react in a manner so that on the whole, MORE people had a lot LESS fun in that time and place. Sound fair and complete? If not, please elaborate and comment. I am writing as generically and inclusively as possible. I wasn't there. Anyways, we all feel that this should NOT happen.

Now here's the odd-ball idea: Let's go get a SAMPLE and ANALYZE it. To do this, I was thinking of that blank book. Why not set up a temporary, anonymous blog where anyone can post what they feel and why they react like that? There would be no real identities, forum nicknames, logins or registrations required. Just type your feelings and experiences, and press 'Submit.'

OTOH, the blog wouldn't DISPLAY the texts - that would be like graffiti. You don't want to encourage people by leaving what might be called hate-speech up on display. (Just like painting over graffiti - you deny the twit with the spraycan his big public audience.) So just a place to collect comments and feelings.

We would have to keep our word that no one is gonna collect IP addresses, round up a lynch mob, witch hunt, or an 'outing' party. Otherwise the people we need to study won't post their true emotions and reactions, and we won't get an accurate picture of the problem. One other aspect of no-names is that this project is NOT about enabling individuals to identify and contact each other to coalesce into an underground skin-head club, or "safe-haven-for-racism" Internet community.

Anyways, then a diverse group of staff, or anti-discrimination team can analyze the comments, and plan countermeasures designed from an understanding of (at least some) of the root causes and attitudes.

Comments?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 01:59:32 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline Wuntvor

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2008, 03:14:44 pm »
I'm going to toss in my two cents.  First off, I am a "straight" white male.  I am married to a wonderful woman who I started dating in Junior High.  She is from Bolivia, and has a definite "Latino" appearance.  She is actually one of the South American natives (That was always a problem on the forms, no I'm not a Mexican, no I'm not a Native American, I'm a South American)  Everyone assumes on seeing her that she can speak Spanish.  She was adopded by a single parent (First one in Oregon she was told) and has lived in US since she was 1 year old.  She did take Spanish in College.  Anyway, I have had to put up with some bigotry, but not nearly as bad now as it used to be.  I always wonder if things happen to her when I am not with her.  She sometimes gets distant, and it worries me.

On another note, my best friend in High school (he was the DM/GM for all of the role playing games I used to play back in the 80's) came out of the closet around 1983 or so.  Two years after I graduated from high school.  He is one of those people who once he decides something, goes all out.  I had a very interesting couple of years around then.  I can still remember driving down 7th street through downtown Eugene and having him whistle at guys out the window of my car.  I just wanted to curl up and die.  :-[  He also invited me to a couple of "community" get togethers in town.  Definitely more than I needed to see.  I had a feeling that everyone was trying to embaress me as much as possible, or maybe using me to prove to themselves that they were OK with being open in front of someone who wasn't of the same sexual persuassion as themselves.  A very "touchy feely" group of individuals.  That said, I am probably like most "straight" individuals, I'm OK with you being the way you are, just don't shove it in my face.

On bigotry.  I am a bigot.  I am not proud of the fact, and I am still uncertain of the cause, I believe a lot of it comes from Movies and TV,  I am uncomfortable around African Americans, especially the very dark skinned ones.  I have no basis for this, I just am.  I have often thought that if I could work with, or go to school with, or live near, someone like this, that I may be able to befriend that individual and get rid of this unreasonable bias I have.  I never have had that opportunity.  I don't hate these individuals, I don't intend to do anything cruel to them, or use their skin tone as a reason for excluding them from activities, or promotion.  I just feel uncomfortable among them.  It is strange, I had a Korean work partner for over a year.  A really nice person, I am married to a South American,  I have a friend who is a Native American.  I love Japanese anime and attending Asian festivals.  I hosted a Russian family in my home for two weeks, none of this was a problem for me, but put me with a dark skinned African American with corn rows, or dreadlocks, and I totally close myself off.  I have no idea why.  I love Sidney Poitier, and Bill Cosby, Whoopie Goldberg, Eddie Murphy, and any number of other African American actors.  I enjoy watching them perform, and admire their skill,  I watched Roots and even read the book. I was so moved at times that I wanted to just punch some faces, so yes I hate people that are bigoted against individuals because of the color of their skin. Still doesn't stop me from having these irrational feelings. (sigh)
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Anon Board
« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2008, 05:09:05 pm »
It also occurs to me that the anonymous board suggestion might also be a place for people who feel they've been mistreated to relate their experiences too, so that a larger picture of the situation may be taken in.

That plus some means to estimate whether the anecdotes recorded are real or therapeutic fanfic.
Maybe people would do that just to blow off steam in response to some other real, upsetting experience.

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #109 on: October 20, 2008, 01:00:46 am »
Well it might be interesting to see the anonymous book thing in action, I'm kind of doubting there will be a lot they can do after the fact.  They can't force their attendees to tolerate or enjoy another person they would typically avoid or make fun of in the streets.  Relay this idea to them if you feel it would be helpful, though I personally don't think it'd be as successful. 

As for the racism thing, that sounds like you need therapy.  I'm not saying this in a condescending, "You're whacked up dood!  lol" way, as I had depression awhile back and needed to attend therapy regularly.  Oregon, and I'm assuming Washington, don't have a large amount of black people(yes, I said black, and get this: most BLACK PEOPLE prefer to be known as BLACKS and not AFRICAN AMERICANS lulz), so it's difficult to get to know very many people who aren't white, or light-skinned.  Only recently have I actually had *non-white* people in my classes at school and I have become friends with them.  But therapy will help you correct your wrong behaviors assuming you are able to spill to them as much as you are able to spill to us. 

Unfortunately, (and I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for the entire "group" when I say this,) that is exactly the kind of behavior we are trying to stop.  Please don't treat us and other gays/transsexuals/whatevers as though we are aliens who think we're "above" straights.  The reason many only associate with other gays?  They have that same sort of behavior.  Generally speaking, gay people are going to be pretty accepting of other gay people.  Straight people will sometimes be so terrified that gays will OMG HIT ON/RAPE THEM. 

We won't.  Stop acting like we're some kind of criminal.  We won't be open with you because you'll think we're trying to prove something to ourselves.  We won't be open with you because you'll be afraid we'll shove it in your face.  We won't be open with you because you'll act as though you'll get our "gay disease" by being near our now-out selves.  We won't be open with you because you'll avoid us like the plague since we'll "suddenly be interested" in your straight self. 

Think of it as a privilige that different people are accepting YOU. 


(for the record, many gays try to AVOID the situation you're depicting of them shoving it in your face and hitting on you, for fear of their own reputation and safety.  How is it any different to be seated next to a straight guy whistling at girls?  It's not.  You're just making it into this big thing because OH NO WHAT IF SOMEONE SEES YOU IN A CAR NEXT TO A GAY GUY OMG OMGOMGOMG)
lol peer pressure

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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #110 on: October 20, 2008, 12:55:53 pm »
Serika,

I read back through my post, and I guess I didn't quite make myself as clear as I wanted. I would probably curl up and die if my "straight" friends whistled at girls out the window as well,  I do remember going out on Prom night during High School and wishing one of my friends would quit yelling out the window.  I mainly put that in to point out the type of switch he had taken in just a week.  As I stated, once he made up his mind, he went all out.

My wife is a "furry" artist.  We actually had a booth at ConiFur NW for a couple of years.  We were staying at my best friends home up in Seattle with him and his "significant other".  We stayed for 3 days.  The apartment had very thin walls.  Nuff said.  I still consider him a close friend.  We don't communicate much anymore since he moved so far away from Eugene.  I am just stating all of this to point out that I have seen a lot of "the community" in various guises.  I have been looked at by guys in such a way that I know they were imagining something.  I have also met plenty of women who were interested in each other much more than in me.  I suppose that is to be expected because of where these events occured.  I guess I am just trying to say that for a "straight" guy I have had much more contact with "the community" than most.  Having your best friend come out of the closet is a definite eye opener.  Give me points for deciding that he hadn't changed.  He was still the same person he was before, and if he was happy with his choice, who am I to tell him different?  He is still my bud.

I actually have had counseling for depression.  Totally different reason though.  That had to do with my parents vacation in Europe during April of 1986 when all hell broke loose overseas.  Disco bombing, attack on Libia, Chernobyl.  Yep I was a mess.  Didn't help that my wife took our daughter and went to stay with her mom, and our cat of 15 yrs died, I had a new job, and I was taking care of my sister.  I was so stressed out I couldn't function.
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Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2008, 08:01:37 pm »
I'm going to respond in pieces since it's difficult to try and address this all in one piece.  And it's a little hard for me to read your words in quotations without thinking you're talking very ironically, so sorry if I'm taking your messages wrong, which it looks like I already have. 

Serika,

I read back through my post, and I guess I didn't quite make myself as clear as I wanted. I would probably curl up and die if my "straight" friends whistled at girls out the window as well,  I do remember going out on Prom night during High School and wishing one of my friends would quit yelling out the window.  I mainly put that in to point out the type of switch he had taken in just a week.  As I stated, once he made up his mind, he went all out.
While I do agree that would get very annoying after a little while, I don't think prom is a time when high schoolers are particularly known for being mature and composed.  I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only guy making an idiot of himself on prom night.  Of course, I wasn't there, but it's practically a law of prom night that you act like an idiot in public to strangers.  Never mind, I read that wrong.  If I were to defend him, which of course I will because I don't know when to let things lie, I'd bet that he'd probably have wanted to be that open for long; it seems very unlikely that he could have gone from mentally being a shy kid to a complete flirt.  People can't act on one behavior when they're concealing another, does that make sense at all?


Quote
My wife is a "furry" artist.  We actually had a booth at ConiFur NW for a couple of years.  We were staying at my best friends home up in Seattle with him and his "significant other".  We stayed for 3 days.  The apartment had very thin walls.  Nuff said.  I still consider him a close friend.  We don't communicate much anymore since he moved so far away from Eugene.  I am just stating all of this to point out that I have seen a lot of "the community" in various guises.
I think my issue is that to me, it seems a little like you're saying it'd be less awkard if this was a straight couple.  It's ALWAYS awkward hearing/seeing/thinking of people you know doing their various illicit activies I probably can't talk about on this board.  Whether they're straight or gay or relatives or buddhist or whatever inbetween, it'll ALWAYS be awkward.  This just doesn't seem like it'd be much different to me.  Just because they happened to be the "exception to the norm" in your experience won't make it any harder to forget, trust me. 

Quote
I have been looked at by guys in such a way that I know they were imagining something. 
It is awkward for me when guys hit on me too.  They're straight, I like to think I'm not very heterophobic. 

Quote
I have also met plenty of women who were interested in each other much more than in me.  I suppose that is to be expected because of where these events occured. 
In my own experience, cons tend to make people giddier, more outgoing, and friskier.  Since the furry community is stereotypically known for being a very open homosexual community, I can imagine what a con would be like with all these people already half-high on energy drinks and whatnot.  (Of course, furry communities are going to be 18+, so that's sorta an older crowd than half of an anime convention, so they might be more mature, but still...) I'm not sure if cons are a very good judge of person; they tend to showcase the extremes in some people.  On top of that, you only remember the significant events... See what I'm getting at here?

Quote
I guess I am just trying to say that for a "straight" guy I have had much more contact with "the community" than most.  Having your best friend come out of the closet is a definite eye opener.  Give me points for deciding that he hadn't changed.  He was still the same person he was before, and if he was happy with his choice, who am I to tell him different?  He is still my bud.
Kudos to you for that then, I was a little under the impression that you had turned your back on him or something simply because he's gay even though it would have still been easy to talk to him and hang out with him and all that.  I have a couple friends I've known for years that I haven't come out to for fear they'll treat me as though my preference for something completely changes who I am. 

Quote
I actually have had counseling for depression.  Totally different reason though.  That had to do with my parents vacation in Europe during April of 1986 when all hell broke loose overseas.  Disco bombing, attack on Libia, Chernobyl.  Yep I was a mess.  Didn't help that my wife took our daughter and went to stay with her mom, and our cat of 15 yrs died, I had a new job, and I was taking care of my sister.  I was so stressed out I couldn't function.
I'm sorry to hear that.  I'm sure you've had firsthand experience with how beneficial it is then, and understand that perhaps when you have the time you could see one about your current issue. 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2008, 12:31:27 am »
I think a part of the "homophobia" in yaoi/yuri is partly from those who absolutely love it shoving it in the face of those who aren't into it.

I use this example because many can say that they've experienced/witnessed/heard about it.

At Sakura-con there's this guy who works at one of the tables selling yaoi.  He use to scream "YAOI!" out loud and would practically kidnap people to the table so they could look at the yaoi they had.

From what I've been told, he was asked by the con to tone it down, and he has thus far, but there are some who still forcefeed it down others throats.

Me, for example.  I don't care if people are into it or not; I also feel that was about homosexuality, as well.  I don't care.  However, if it's forced upon me enough, I get disgusted by it and (more accurately) with the person.

There's this guy that I've started to befriend over the past few months who's gay.  He understands that I'm not in favor of it.  One time he showed me some of his favorite male/yaoi erotica saved on his phone.  I didn't care.  In fact, I appreciated that he wasn't being so forceful about it, so I had no problem looking at it.

What I'm trying to say is, although homophobia isn't going to go away any time soon, it will help if those in favor of yaoi/yuri stop proclaiming its "greatness" and making those of us who are into guy-on-girl stuff accept their choice, it may help the cause of tolerance.
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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2008, 06:31:06 pm »
I think a part of the "homophobia" in yaoi/yuri is partly from those who absolutely love it shoving it in the face of those who aren't into it.

I use this example because many can say that they've experienced/witnessed/heard about it.

At Sakura-con there's this guy who works at one of the tables selling yaoi.  He use to scream "YAOI!" out loud and would practically kidnap people to the table so they could look at the yaoi they had.

From what I've been told, he was asked by the con to tone it down, and he has thus far, but there are some who still forcefeed it down others throats.

Me, for example.  I don't care if people are into it or not; I also feel that was about homosexuality, as well.  I don't care.  However, if it's forced upon me enough, I get disgusted by it and (more accurately) with the person.

There's this guy that I've started to befriend over the past few months who's gay.  He understands that I'm not in favor of it.  One time he showed me some of his favorite male/yaoi erotica saved on his phone.  I didn't care.  In fact, I appreciated that he wasn't being so forceful about it, so I had no problem looking at it.

What I'm trying to say is, although homophobia isn't going to go away any time soon, it will help if those in favor of yaoi/yuri stop proclaiming its "greatness" and making those of us who are into guy-on-girl stuff accept their choice, it may help the cause of tolerance.

I agree with this. Honestly having gone to Sakuracon last year ALL I saw was "Yaoi-this" "Yaoi-that", I heart Yaoi panels....and so on. Frankly It kinda pissed me off. I believe that equality is more important than Yaoi-only. Thats why I made it a personal goal to have a Yuri panel this year at Kumoricon and it wasnt soley "sexualy baised".

There was a girl in the lobby at last years kumoricon who was shouting "Does anyone Like Yuri?" and I saw 3 people walk by and say "ew I only like Yaoi" I said I liked Yuri and she gave me a poster. It was sad.

I agree with many people who arent in to ANY form of hentai, Yaoi/Yuri/or Het, I cant take it seriously. I laugh my way through just about everything. But this is also why Kumoricon is trying to have more Adult theamed content that dosent involve genitalia! LOL. We will be greater than Sakuracon....*evil plot*  :)

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Offline Sporty_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2008, 08:57:48 pm »
this coming from the adult content coordinator too (whatever that means)

my girlfriend made me watch gravitation with her once and i didnt like it

whatever happened to guy on girl
don't expect to hear too much from me

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Offline Deviant Spider

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #115 on: December 13, 2008, 09:14:27 pm »
this coming from the adult content coordinator too (whatever that means)

It means that I make sure everything from Sake Tasting to Hentai run smoothly durring the convention. Anything that requires ID checks I monitor and work with.



Nothing happened to it. We show everything at this convention. You can choose what you want panels you want to go too. Thats what I meant by equality. Im pretty open minded to all forms of our adult content so I try to make sure there is something for everyone. We are also looking into a Japanese Live action Horror viewing (since these would be rated R they would probably be 17+) in adult content. Its hard to find panelists who dont want to run some form of hentai though.  NEED more content.


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Offline Sporty_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #116 on: December 13, 2008, 09:29:02 pm »
this coming from the adult content coordinator too (whatever that means)

It means that I make sure everything from Sake Tasting to Hentai run smoothly durring the convention. Anything that requires ID checks I monitor and work with.

oic  thank you for explaining that to me
don't expect to hear too much from me

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2008, 09:49:04 pm »
I think a part of the "homophobia" in yaoi/yuri is partly from those who absolutely love it shoving it in the face of those who aren't into it.

I use this example because many can say that they've experienced/witnessed/heard about it.

At Sakura-con there's this guy who works at one of the tables selling yaoi.  He use to scream "YAOI!" out loud and would practically kidnap people to the table so they could look at the yaoi they had.

From what I've been told, he was asked by the con to tone it down, and he has thus far, but there are some who still forcefeed it down others throats.

Me, for example.  I don't care if people are into it or not; I also feel that was about homosexuality, as well.  I don't care.  However, if it's forced upon me enough, I get disgusted by it and (more accurately) with the person.

There's this guy that I've started to befriend over the past few months who's gay.  He understands that I'm not in favor of it.  One time he showed me some of his favorite male/yaoi erotica saved on his phone.  I didn't care.  In fact, I appreciated that he wasn't being so forceful about it, so I had no problem looking at it.

What I'm trying to say is, although homophobia isn't going to go away any time soon, it will help if those in favor of yaoi/yuri stop proclaiming its "greatness" and making those of us who are into guy-on-girl stuff accept their choice, it may help the cause of tolerance.

I agree with this.

 We will be greater than Sakuracon....*evil plot*  :)

Thank you, and let's do it!!!
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2008, 03:42:35 am »
*is shocked* Wait did I read that right, someone says the age of consent in Japan is *twelve*? OMG that is WAYYYYYYY too young. Is that for both male and female? Is that for both het and non-het pairings? Holy moley, well that's a bit of context that would explain some stuff, but certainly not healthy imho. Wonder if that's true in other Asian countries and if so why there's so much "sex tourism" there which is really pedophilia? *Feels truly nauseous*

 
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Offline Sporty_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2008, 08:18:08 am »
i can see that being true

in bulgaria the age is fourteen
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Offline Wuntvor

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2008, 07:58:52 pm »
*is shocked* Wait did I read that right, someone says the age of consent in Japan is *twelve*? OMG that is WAYYYYYYY too young. Is that for both male and female? Is that for both het and non-het pairings? Holy moley, well that's a bit of context that would explain some stuff, but certainly not healthy imho. Wonder if that's true in other Asian countries and if so why there's so much "sex tourism" there which is really pedophilia? *Feels truly nauseous*

Actually it is 13,  there are different laws in every prefecture that effect sexual acts and there legality.  It may be OK for two 13 year olds to have sex, but not OK for an adult to ask a 13 year old to have sex, or for a 13 year old to prostitute herself, or to perform sexual acts witout parental permission.  Read the links below.  I am still trying to determine how they determine your age.  I think that legally they started using the Western system to determine age in 1902, but some areas still used the traditional system as late as 1950.  In any case I don't believe that you are a year old at birth in Japan anymore.  If anyone knows different please let me know.  Here are a couple of links I found on the subject:

http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning#Japanese
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2008, 08:16:11 am »
It would explain why shows like Ranma 1/2 aren't considered child porn.  lol  :D
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Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2008, 08:16:37 pm »
Aren't they like 17 in Ranma? Or is that just Kuno and Nabiki's age?

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2008, 11:29:03 pm »
Yeah, Kuno & Nabiki are 17.  Most of them (Ranma, Akane, Ryoga, Ukyo, & maybe Shampoo & Mousse) are 16.
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Offline Sporty_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2008, 11:48:09 pm »
so is kunos little sister kodachi

dont forget about kasumi who is ninteen
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2008, 11:49:26 pm »
Oh yeah, huh?  We could also speculate that Pantyhose Taro and Akari are 16.
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Offline Sporty_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2008, 11:50:26 pm »
who is akari
don't expect to hear too much from me

just wanted to drop in and say hi

hi

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2008, 11:53:30 pm »
I don't think she was ever in the anime.  She was, however, in the manga.  She fell in love with Ryoga because he beat her Yokozuna pig.  Upon learning of his curse, she felt that they were destined to be together.
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Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #128 on: December 25, 2008, 03:14:33 pm »
 This may be a little late but don't have a computer at home, but the recent discusion brings up a poin of often think about.

 The question of underage content in anime.

 Really, what is it that makes the difference? There are a lot of charcters that look about eight years old and peoplell tell me  " Nu uh they are 16 +"
 
 Soo..then what is the point of having ages in anime? Really, it's just ind of..disturbing.


Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #129 on: December 26, 2008, 05:14:02 pm »
::ehem:: not to be like this, but this isn't really the place for a discussion of under-agedness in anime. I'd sorta like people to continue to talk about the possibility of an LGBTQ meet-up panel (which I'm willing to organize). If you'd like to talk about other stuff, feel free to make another thread (I am not too clear on the forum rules and I really really don't want this thread locked just because you guys wanted to talk about loli/shota off topic).

:3 thanks everybody!

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2008, 03:42:57 pm »
I still think it'd be great to have this. Being transgendered (mentally) it's hard to be able to freely talk about this kind of stuff. I would love to have a place where I, and others could easily and freely talk about this topic.

And even if we can't get a panel, I think there should be a meet up during one of the days.
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #131 on: December 27, 2008, 11:15:38 pm »
*still squicked by young age of consent laws*
on the TG subject, I'm a support person for a friend just starting T to go FTM. :)
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
2007, 8, 9, 10: Fan Creation Manager. 2011: Writing & Editing Coord (Publicity).

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2008, 02:03:30 pm »
I think, judging by the huge response we've gotten, this panel would be at least somewhat popular and I don't think we'll have much trouble getting it accepted. I'm going to submit panel form as soon as the 2009 ones are released ::nodnod::

In other news, Maddie Blaustein (voice actor of Meowth and one of the few trans voice actors) died recently T__T http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddie_Blaustein

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2008, 05:06:11 pm »
I am still very interested in this, so much I'm even planning to abandon my booth to come. D8;;; So I'll be sad if it doesn't happen for whatever reason. 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #134 on: December 28, 2008, 09:52:53 pm »
I just hope that it won't be happening during something else that I'd want to go to (has happened to me multible times TT.TT).
And I hope my friend wouldn't mind coming along...I don't think she would...
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
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Offline SachiNoDa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2009, 06:54:38 am »
This would be an awesome panel, and I would be more than happy to show up for it. <3<3
Kumoricon '08
Resident Evil - Annette Birkin
Okage: Shadow King - Linda
Silent Hill 2 - Mary

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2009, 09:14:43 pm »
^^^Please come to this panel wearing Linda, and I'll love you forever.


Okay, JUST CHECKING AGAIN is this still being planned?

And I doubt we'd need a guard or anything considering all the yaoi fangirls but perhaps we should inform the staff that there's a slim chance there could be a few disgruntled parents/congoers.  You know how people can be. >>;;;
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #137 on: April 06, 2009, 09:59:30 am »
::ehem:: not to be like this, but this isn't really the place for a discussion of under-agedness in anime. I'd sorta like people to continue to talk about the possibility of an LGBTQ meet-up panel (which I'm willing to organize). If you'd like to talk about other stuff, feel free to make another thread (I am not too clear on the forum rules and I really really don't want this thread locked just because you guys wanted to talk about loli/shota off topic).

:3 thanks everybody!

I'd kinda hafta disagree on that, and agree.  However, a LGBTQ meet-up panel isn't what was originally discussed here; it was HOMOPHOBIA.  (Though that's not a bad idea for a panel, either).


In other news, Maddie Blaustein (voice actor of Meowth and one of the few trans voice actors) died recently T__T http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddie_Blaustein

 :'(
My cosplay plans for 2022 (thus far): Vanir from Konosuba
My son's plans this year (thus far): Penguin Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Daioh

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2009, 05:54:07 pm »
still planning to come if this is going on : D i really look forward to it
returning with a vengeance to K con~

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2009, 01:39:03 am »
Same here!
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #140 on: July 18, 2009, 05:37:18 pm »
I am still very much interested in running this panel, I was just waiting until I was sure that there was interest... I'll go submit a form right now.

To those of you who question the decision to switch to a "LGBTQ Meet-up Panel" rather than the originally conceived "Con-Homophobia" one, I simply think that the former is too specific. There will definitely be a segment where we talk about our positive/negative experiences at conventions, so please don't let the new name/panel scare you off!

Edit: Form submitted, will update again when I have received a response.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 05:56:02 pm by murder_of_raven »

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #141 on: July 21, 2009, 01:22:51 am »
I'm excited! What day are you aiming for?
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2009, 03:01:27 pm »
I'm actually not aiming for anything other than a before mid-night timeslot which doesn't run into the AMV Contest... I'll let people know when/if they tell me when it's actually going to be!

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2009, 05:04:40 pm »
They should tell you when it is, and I hope they will soon.
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
Cosmo (FOP)
Octodad (Octodad)

https://www.facebook.com/smilingmooncosplay

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2009, 01:02:28 am »
Is this on the schedule?  I didn't see it.
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2009, 01:42:53 am »
Is this going to be this year or next year?

Eaither way id love to come and bring my girlfriend along with me ;D
Kumoricon 13 plans:
Ari -Okage Shadow King
Axel -Kingdom Hearts
Ash -Pokemon
Nick -L4D2

https://www.facebook.com/Need4Things
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Devysisk-Modeling-Page/496336850429477

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2009, 03:51:51 am »
Look harder people!  ;D

Yes it is indeed on the schedule. We're all set for Sunday afternoon in the Workshop room... although I can't remember our specific time off the top of my head. If you know it post it for me, okay? XD

I hope to see you all there! Come with discussion topics if possible!

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2009, 05:27:15 am »
I found it ^^ its at 6pm on Sunday.

Ill probably be able to make it since its way before the masquerade :D
Kumoricon 13 plans:
Ari -Okage Shadow King
Axel -Kingdom Hearts
Ash -Pokemon
Nick -L4D2

https://www.facebook.com/Need4Things
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Devysisk-Modeling-Page/496336850429477

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2009, 03:55:56 pm »
Sweet! I will try to come ^^
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
Cosmo (FOP)
Octodad (Octodad)

https://www.facebook.com/smilingmooncosplay

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2009, 05:06:50 pm »
Ah, found it, haha.  I'll be a little late because I'm in the AA, and, um, I'll probably leave halfway through to go to a photoshoot, but I will definitely be there for part of this. 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #150 on: September 07, 2009, 04:48:36 pm »
Hi all!  I'm curious to find out how the panel went.  I saw it on the schedule and really wanted to go (a friend and I have been wanting there to be something like this for years!), but since it was in the middle of the cosplay contest, and I had friends doing an entry, I couldn't make it.  Was it a success?  Did you have good discussions?  Was much fun had by all?

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #151 on: September 07, 2009, 05:44:06 pm »
Hi all!  I'm curious to find out how the panel went.  I saw it on the schedule and really wanted to go (a friend and I have been wanting there to be something like this for years!), but since it was in the middle of the cosplay contest, and I had friends doing an entry, I couldn't make it.  Was it a success?  Did you have good discussions?  Was much fun had by all?

As the coordinator I am extremely pleased with how it turned out. I of course cannot speak for everyone but it was really a highlight of my Kumoricon and we'll definitely be back next year, hopefully even better! =3

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #152 on: September 07, 2009, 06:47:28 pm »
I really hope I can make it next year!  What type of stuff did you guys end of discussing?  Was there a good turn out? (<--is obviously far too excited about this...)

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #153 on: September 07, 2009, 07:04:59 pm »
I really hope I can make it next year!  What type of stuff did you guys end of discussing?  Was there a good turn out? (<--is obviously far too excited about this...)

We got a little caught up on talking about series that portray queer people positively/negatively, but it was still very interesting. We also talked a little about theory, such as bisexuals in fiction, why queer people are attracted to otaku culture, and the rarity of yuri compared to yaoi.

There was a simply amazing turnout, my guess would be 50-60 people, so many that a staff member informed me I wasn't allowed to admit anybody else into the room for fire safety. I really didn't expect people to be so interested!

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2009, 07:32:08 pm »
That's awesome!  It seems like it would definitely make for a good panel.  I'm personally always a little bugged by the way gay/bi/queer characters are often portrayed in yuri and yaoi in particular.  It's also odd to find fans who think yaoi is OMG AWESONE but yuri is icky...frustrates me a bit.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #155 on: September 07, 2009, 08:15:43 pm »
That's awesome!  It seems like it would definitely make for a good panel.  I'm personally always a little bugged by the way gay/bi/queer characters are often portrayed in yuri and yaoi in particular.  It's also odd to find fans who think yaoi is OMG AWESONE but yuri is icky...frustrates me a bit.

Heehee! We did in fact discuss this for quite some time! Please come next year, I think you'd have enjoyed it.

Did you get to go to the Yuri panel? I didn't because of the AMV Iron Chef tournament, but I'd really love to hear what somebody thought about it. The yuri fandom really is just pathetically small :P

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #156 on: September 07, 2009, 09:29:38 pm »
I didn't get to make it, though later I wished I had.  I was worried it would be nothing but creepy boys, despite my high hopes and dreams, lol.  I should have at least poked my head in though!

I will really try to come next year!  I just hope it's not in the middle of the cosplay contest again, since I hope to be entering.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #157 on: September 07, 2009, 09:35:33 pm »
I didn't get to make it, though later I wished I had.  I was worried it would be nothing but creepy boys, despite my high hopes and dreams, lol.  I should have at least poked my head in though!

Hahaha yes that is indeed why I didn't go. But I hear it was double-booked with the yaoi panel and thus was awful (because they outnumbered the yuri people by a ton and were a lot louder, etc). Still, we should both try to get there next year for at least a minute, that means that there'd be at least 2 not creepy boys, yes? Also, if nobody is really into running it, I'm going to look into taking it over because I'd make sure to put a lot of effort into it...

And yes! Please do... unfortunately I can't make any promises about that. Like you I do a contest, but mine is the AMV contest and we'll have to luck out for it to not be during either.

Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #158 on: September 07, 2009, 11:58:29 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.


Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2009, 12:19:12 am »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #160 on: September 08, 2009, 12:18:22 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Actually, theres no disagreement here. I'm not making the generalization.  It seems to be a socially enforced stereotype that I don't agree with.

My personal philosophy is 'whatever floats your boat" but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri. I'm not even 'eww' about it.  Just 'not mah thang".

Its similar on 'this side' of things. I like yaoi but Im almost afraid to admit it because so many obnoxious people make the rest of us look bad.

Anyway, yah, thats the general idea of whatI was saying

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #161 on: September 08, 2009, 06:38:49 pm »
but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri.

Who are you hanging out with, seriously? XD Replace these people with the much larger portion of nice yuri fans I've met please.

But really, I'm surprised you have an issue (unless this is an issue of somebody who is in the hentai fandom but happens to like yuri-edged hentai, then that makes loads of sense) considering there really is not that much yuri. I mean seriously, even if some mad criminal kidnapped you and forced you to make every yuri ever made it'd take you like 2 weeks, tops. I think that Kyo Kara Mao is longer than that by itself. And sure, there's more manga than that but Japanese people have trouble finding it, let alone Americans. Whereas you can buy yaoi at their equivalent of 7/11 (I have had this verified by multiple yaoi friends who have gone to Japan XD).

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #162 on: September 08, 2009, 06:40:50 pm »
I tried to attend this as the ONLY panel I went to, and....it was full! ;o; Please schedule it for next year, and mark that we need a bigger room.  There were other people wandering around looking for it at the same time as me, so yeah, you WILL need a bigger room. 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #163 on: September 08, 2009, 07:08:18 pm »
I tried to attend this as the ONLY panel I went to, and....it was full! ;o; Please schedule it for next year, and mark that we need a bigger room.  There were other people wandering around looking for it at the same time as me, so yeah, you WILL need a bigger room. 

Oh! I wanted to see you too, you've been super involved on this forum previously :\

But yeah, I'm not a staffer or anything so I certainly have no ability to decide how much room we have... and I'm afraid I'd be an awful facilitator of 70+ people... But well, if they give us a big room I guess I'll just make do XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #164 on: September 08, 2009, 07:31:59 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Actually, theres no disagreement here. I'm not making the generalization.  It seems to be a socially enforced stereotype that I don't agree with.

My personal philosophy is 'whatever floats your boat" but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri. I'm not even 'eww' about it.  Just 'not mah thang".

Its similar on 'this side' of things. I like yaoi but Im almost afraid to admit it because so many obnoxious people make the rest of us look bad.

Anyway, yah, thats the general idea of whatI was saying

I totally know what you mean.  My problem doesn't come with people just not liking yuri but liking yaoi (that's a simple question of taste, and I'm not one to complain about personal preferences!).  My problem comes with yaoi fans who are crazy about guys kissing each other, yet are offended or annoyed by girls kissing.  I think it's partially that, from what I've seen, a lot of yaoi tends to completely ignore the life-style aspect of being gay.  I know some of this is due to it being Japan, and thus a different cultural obviously, but it always feels kind of empty to me.  Basically, it feels like it's written for girls (which it is) instead of gay boys (much like lesbian porn in America).  Which is all well and good, but I'd much rather be reading some cool queer lit that's actually dealing with the issues its bringing up.  To be fair though, I don't read much/any yaoi, so I could be missing out on some series that do that.

I definitely know what you mean, I often get blank stares for not wanting to read yaoi, when I have nothing against it, it's just not my thing :D

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #165 on: September 10, 2009, 01:35:21 am »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.
Guys just don't open up as much.  Personally I've seen a lot of guys I thought "dam that's a nice set of abs," though it was more of an "I want mine like that" then something to do with me liking the guy in some other way. It's all dependant on who the person is, and how they open themselves up.  As for girls expected to be more open?  Well they just are, so that's how its going to be until you see more guys home cooking and watching their kids then woman.  Which wont happen for a while, its just how we were organized in this crazy world, go ahead and try and change it if you dare.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #166 on: September 10, 2009, 08:51:28 pm »
Guys just don't open up as much.  Personally I've seen a lot of guys I thought "dam that's a nice set of abs," though it was more of an "I want mine like that" then something to do with me liking the guy in some other way. It's all dependent on who the person is, and how they open themselves up.  As for girls expected to be more open?  Well they just are, so that's how its going to be until you see more guys home cooking and watching their kids then woman.  Which wont happen for a while, its just how we were organized in this crazy world, go ahead and try and change it if you dare.

Hmm, well I disagree with a lot of what you said but please do not take what I am about to write offensively. I think the new "expectation for women to be bisexual" is socially a very new element of American culture- other cultures have had it longer (ie Japan) or not at all (ie Latino culture). I think this has very little to do with women being more expressive than men, although they are indeed encouraged to be so in our society. Instead I think that this can be largely attributed to two other factors--

First, the prevalence of queer women in American pop-culture. Before the '90s there were few if any "out" women in the limelight. Indeed, an expression has occurred in lesbian culture referring to this- "After Ellen". With more queer women in the public's mind, it makes sense that queer women were in fact thought about more often. Of course, the same can be said for gay men in the last ten-twenty years, so obviously this is only part of the cause.

The second element here is definitely up to interpretation, but I attribute it to the prevalence of "lesbians" in heterosexual pornography. (I use "lesbians" to refer to depictions of women who are described as lesbian but who actually behave as bisexuals.) With being queer becoming increasingly socially acceptable and with lesbians already being so heavily sexualized, it was a natural progression for lesbian-fetishists to take it one step further and begin suggesting to women that they /should/ be attracted to other women, rather than /could/. This was no doubt re-enforced by songs like "I Kissed a Girl", which we briefly touched upon in the panel.

Returning to the question "Why are women expected to like yuri?" and the response "Men are less expressive (and the conclusion that this will stay the same until men "cook and watch after children more than women")": Interest in yuri is unarguably not mainstream, especially non-hentai yuri (hentai itself couldn't be construed as mainstream), so there cannot be any special clause in American consciousness for it. Instead we are seeing a separate but connected phenomena adapting to our own specific subculture.

As for camname21's response, I find myself quite bothered by his underlying assumptions because they would mean that, if they are true, America is still unwilling to accept male homosexuals. However, within our own subculture there is proof that he is at least partially incorrect-- yaoi is consumed almost entirely by women so the sexual interest in opposite-gender homosexuals definitely exists in females as well. And even more conclusively, I have certainly had self-proclaimed "yaoi-fangirl" friends who are /constantly/ trying to pressure their friends into yaoi, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation. I think the lower proliferation of this can be almost entirely accounted for by the greater acceptance of lesbians in comparison to gays in American society.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #167 on: September 10, 2009, 08:57:35 pm »
I apologize for the extremely long post. A TL;DR version for those of you who can't be bothered to read all of that: Some men find lesbians sexy. Lesbians are getting lots of new civil rights. Some women find gays sexy. Gays are arguably further behind in civil rights. As gays get more civil rights and homophobia towards them fades it is likely that yaoi will become even more popular and there will be a larger number of women who begin to pressure men into liking it as well.

Related: I find it ironic that at the end of my enormous post about prevalence of "lesbians" in heterosexual pornography, my recent anime list showed "Resort BOIN" which does include some of that. XD I hate when my anime list is embarrassing!

ALSO: Rose (my new co-panelist) and I are looking for ideas on how to make this panel even better next year. Please contact me if you have any good ideas! =3

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2009, 09:03:07 pm »
Uh, you don't have to be gay to like yuri/shoujo-ai/yaoi/shonen-ai/ Wth,.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #169 on: September 10, 2009, 09:22:04 pm »
Uh, you don't have to be gay to like yuri/shoujo-ai/yaoi/shonen-ai/ Wth,.

Umm... when did anybody imply this? I'm sure that I wouldn't have, but perhaps I missed someone else suggesting that?

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #170 on: September 10, 2009, 09:25:57 pm »

Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.


Maybe I'm  misinterpreting it but that's just a ridiculous concept.

Hohoho, sorry for budding in though~

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2009, 09:28:03 pm »
Maybe I'm  misinterpreting it but that's just a ridiculous concept.

Hohoho, sorry for budding in though~

She was specifically speaking against that perception, not condoning it. And yes, I think we can all agree that it is ridiculous.

And nono, that's definitely fine. :3 We welcome your thoughts!

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2009, 10:30:05 pm »
Well let me first say, my comments here are more of an outsiders? perspective.  I have absolutely no experience with yaoi and yuri, in fact I don't remember which one means which.  While this should not de-credit anything I say, it does show that I do not understand much of these anime cultures.  In my comment I was merely throwing my thoughts on the specific homosexual quote posted.  Wops I notice I didn't reduce the quotes :D   oh well.  Anyhow this is a more accurate and refined quote specifically to what I responded to.
That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.

Now, while Murder_of_Raven has a point, all I'm saying is guys are not portrayed as sexually open in mainstream TV (not just anime) and to a lesser degree in real life public situations.  However this has changed in the last few years, and guys are probably on the same page as girls in some social circles.  Outside of the anime genres things are a little different, and that would where my thoughts are coming from.  Commence bashing me now..  :(

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2009, 11:31:42 pm »
Commence bashing me now..  :(

Eep! I was specifically trying not to bash you. See:
Hmm, well I disagree with a lot of what you said but please do not take what I am about to write offensively.

Your opinion is certainly welcome and valid, I was just adding my thoughts on the matter! Also, fyi: yaoi=gay content, yuri=lesbian content. Now you know.

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #174 on: September 10, 2009, 11:55:39 pm »
I knew what they were, just not which one went with which gender.  I see that yaoi has an A in it now "for gAy", so I think I'll be able to remember now.  As for bashing, it wasn't so bad, just me messing up more on my original quote, opening my shiny armor up to your gay hammer. :D

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #175 on: September 11, 2009, 12:50:14 am »
I knew what they were, just not which one went with which gender.  I see that yaoi has an A in it now "for gAy", so I think I'll be able to remember now.  As for bashing, it wasn't so bad, just me messing up more on my original quote, opening my shiny armor up to your gay hammer. :D
Yay! That is hardly the worst mnemonic I've heard for remembering yaoi. Gay hammer? I don't believe I have one of those XD

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #176 on: September 11, 2009, 12:42:19 pm »
Yay! That is hardly the worst mnemonic I've heard for remembering yaoi. Gay hammer? I don't believe I have one of those XD
I believe you now have a new prop to build ^.^
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:42:37 pm by camname21 »

Offline Thessaliad

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #177 on: September 12, 2009, 05:55:29 am »
I promised Murder of Raven that I would post a list of the manga/anime titles that came up during the discussion, and here they are, belated though they may be.

First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Outlaw Star
Gurren Lagan
Magical shopping Arcade
Okane ga Nai (I happen to love this one to death, but it is really horrible)
Utopia of Homosexuality

Gay-friendly Manga

Family Compo
I's
Speed-Grapher
Paradise Kiss
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Kashi Mashi
Strawberry Egg
Junjou Romantica
Plica
Yellow
Strawberry Shake Sweet
Maria-sama Watches Over Us
Rose of Versailles
After-School Romance
My Two Wings
Watashi wa Bambi
Transistor Venus
Indigo Blue
Haru wo Daiteita
Burst Angel

I'm bad, I didn't write down the genre of the manga or which of these were in translation, so anyone who has that info, please let me know and I will update.

Thanks!

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #178 on: September 12, 2009, 10:09:51 am »
Wow thanks, that list is very helpful!  I always have trouble finding LGBTQ possitive stuff, so I'm usually hesitant to try stuff.  Utena is one of my favorites, though!

Is Maria-sama Watches Over Us also know as Maria Holic?  If not, has anyone seen that series?  I've watched about half of it, and it seemed like it had promise, but also seemed like it could go really bad and end up "fixing" the open lesbian main character into being straight by the end.  I unfortunately haven't had a chance to finish the series yet, so if you have try not to completely ruin the end for me, but I would like to know if it's worth my time...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #179 on: September 12, 2009, 10:33:37 am »
Wow thanks, that list is very helpful!  I always have trouble finding LGBTQ possitive stuff, so I'm usually hesitant to try stuff.  Utena is one of my favorites, though!

Is Maria-sama Watches Over Us also know as Maria Holic?  If not, has anyone seen that series?  I've watched about half of it, and it seemed like it had promise, but also seemed like it could go really bad and end up "fixing" the open lesbian main character into being straight by the end.  I unfortunately haven't had a chance to finish the series yet, so if you have try not to completely ruin the end for me, but I would like to know if it's worth my time...

Heehee. No no, Maria Holic is not Maria-sama. I have seen both however.

Maria Holic is brought to us by SHAFT, the same people responsible for Zetsubou Sensei, Pani Poni Dash, and this season's Bakemonogatari. And despite their very different casts they all might as well be the same show. Maria Holic is a wonderful little parody of the entire yuri/gender-bender genre that me and my girlfriend both quite enjoyed (but we are SHAFT fans!), although I warn you that it doesn't really end at all. It just sort of drops off the last episode, leaving you to hope that it'll get picked up for another season.

I have no experience with the manga it is based on so I don't know if in the end they "fix" the main character, but I have to say it doesn't feel like the SHAFT version will do that. After all, the lesbian MC is interested in everyone except the only male character in the show, even his nearly identical female twin XD. That said, its a genre satire so its hardly a "realistic depiction of queer people", it's actually pretty much exactly the opposite.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:36:08 am by murder_of_raven »

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #180 on: September 12, 2009, 04:31:44 pm »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Magical shopping Arcade

Can he even be properly called gay? He saw MuneMune and was so impressed that he wanted to be a woman too. It's stupid, but no less stupid than anything else that happened in there.

Anyway, to add to the + list, Magical Pokémon Journey. Squirtle is in love with Almond, a male human, and even in the Viz Kids translation there's no beating around the bush about this.
It's also stated at one point that Charmander (male) has a thing for Eevee (also male), but the story about it wasn't translated (they stopped translating at volume 7 due to slow sales) and Charmander wound up liking I believe Chikorita (female) later. But hey, bisexual pokemon too, eh?

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #181 on: September 12, 2009, 04:42:38 pm »
There's also the thing with Sailor Moon. There's no arguing about the fact that it's a lesbian anime, but they changed so much to make it as straight as possible when it came to america...
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #182 on: September 12, 2009, 05:09:08 pm »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Magical shopping Arcade

Can he even be properly called gay? He saw MuneMune and was so impressed that he wanted to be a woman too. It's stupid, but no less stupid than anything else that happened in there.

He might not be classified as "gay" but I would definitely put him under the "genderqueer" umbrella, and not a portrayal imo. But also, I think its a common characteristic in bad portrayals of queer people that they're not exactly sure what sort of queer they are.

And we all try our hardest not to remember that train-wreck of a translation. At least it was better than the "Cardcaptors" dub, at least in my opinion.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #183 on: September 13, 2009, 02:37:21 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

Here I'm specificaly thinking of Harley from Pokémon, but there's gotta be tons others. He's incredibly flamboyant, and also he's a creepy vindictive jackass, but those don't have anything to do with each other.

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #184 on: September 13, 2009, 03:05:31 am »
And so is James...And he actually gets a sex change...
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #185 on: September 13, 2009, 03:35:31 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #186 on: September 13, 2009, 11:40:02 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.

Yeah, I have to agree with that.  There's nothing wrong with it in theory (I mean, queer people are just as likely to go to the darkside as straight people, afterall, since they're all, well, people), but the problem becomes when the queer villians are the only (or very nearly) queer characters represented.  They can even be awesome characters in themselves, but its more a subtle message: these people are different, these people are wrong.  Again, some very awesome and beloved characters fit into this category, so the main problem is the lack of representation among good characters and POV characters.

And to go back to Maria Holic (sorry, I thought maybe the translated it and called it something else, lol), my main concern was that by the end they would hook her up with the guy character, since that seems to fit shoujo logic, so I'm happy to hear that that doesn't seem to happen.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #187 on: September 13, 2009, 01:14:05 pm »
...so the main problem is the lack of representation among good characters and POV characters.

...since that seems to fit shoujo logic, so I'm happy to hear that that doesn't seem to happen.

I totally agree that's the problem, I love seeing non-yuri/yaoi in which the MC is just queer, that isn't the focus of the plot or anything. Although they're kind of rare, I can think of a few shows that have that to some extent-- Serial Experiments: Lain, .Hack//Sign, Utena, and of course Evangelion.

And lol meet SHAFT. Firstly Maria Holic is in no way shape or form a shoujo and secondly (more importantly) this is SHAFT we're talking about and they are anything but logic sticklers. Once you see it you'll know what I mean XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #188 on: September 13, 2009, 02:24:30 pm »
And lol meet SHAFT. Firstly Maria Holic is in no way shape or form a shoujo and secondly (more importantly) this is SHAFT we're talking about and they are anything but logic sticklers. Once you see it you'll know what I mean XD

I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #189 on: September 13, 2009, 02:50:18 pm »
I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

I absolutely love SHAFT. Tell me what you think when you've seen some Maria Holic, okay?

Yes indeed, I must say the Kaoru episode of Evangelion is what made me a Gainax fangirl. And yaoi isn't even usually my thing, it was just so awesome that near the end of one of the most influential anime ever they were like, "oh, and the main character is bisexual". And it wasn't an issue, it was just a character trait. Lain does that too ::nodnod::

Anybody know of other shows like that? I mean, other than the ones I mentioned previously.

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #190 on: September 13, 2009, 06:37:26 pm »
I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

I absolutely love SHAFT. Tell me what you think when you've seen some Maria Holic, okay?

Yes indeed, I must say the Kaoru episode of Evangelion is what made me a Gainax fangirl. And yaoi isn't even usually my thing, it was just so awesome that near the end of one of the most influential anime ever they were like, "oh, and the main character is bisexual". And it wasn't an issue, it was just a character trait. Lain does that too ::nodnod::

Anybody know of other shows like that? I mean, other than the ones I mentioned previously.

Yeah I remember being really impressed by that in Eva, since it really was an "oh by the way" moment, not a big plot point.  I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

I will definitely tell you when I finish Maria Holic!  I just need to download the rest of it, if I remember correctly.  Now I'm excited to finish it!

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #191 on: September 13, 2009, 07:36:01 pm »
I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

Yes, it always amazes me how often people forget that about Lain. Lain is in fact canonically a yuri series, at one point Lain tells Alice that she "loves her". I guess the rest of that show was just so weird that people were distracted or something XD. And yeah, you need to watch Lain two or three times before it makes sense (I've seen it 4 times!).

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2009, 06:22:59 pm »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.


The fandom has always distinguished Harley's flamboyance from his evilness, seeing them as completely unrelated things. Which they are. Frankly, I'd think anyone who tried to connect the two would be an idiot.

Especially considering he's the only "gay villian" we have. Sure there's James but it's been stated that he likes girls. If anyone else is gay (and in gameverse you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that Maxie and Archie didn't have *something* going on at some point), it's never addressed because it doesn't matter.



Heck, in one of the comics, a villian's love (however you define it, it could be a platonic love) for the lead character is his redemption. I could say more but it's a spoiler.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 06:24:38 pm by BlackjackGabbiani »

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #193 on: September 15, 2009, 12:24:49 am »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Gurren Lagan

Wait, my friend wants me to watch this, but i haven't gotten around to it yet.  What should I look out for? 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #194 on: September 15, 2009, 01:51:46 am »
Wait, my friend wants me to watch this, but i haven't gotten around to it yet.  What should I look out for? 

A fairly minor but extremely stereotypical gay male. Personally I do not believe it ruins the show; I highly recommend it overall.

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #195 on: September 15, 2009, 10:23:19 am »
Ooh, ooh, how bout Kuroshitsuji for the "bad" side? The portrayal of the red-headed reaper during the Big Reveal was kinda sorta...just terrible. Eesh. I mean, remember how certain members of Anime Club reacted, Raven? My respect for freshman went plummeting downward!

(Kept purposely vague to reduce spoilage, but y'all would know what I meant if you saw it.)

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #196 on: September 15, 2009, 10:38:51 am »
Ooh, ooh, how bout Kuroshitsuji for the "bad" side?

Hmm, an interesting point. I'm not sure it was negative or not, I've always been sort of split on that character. At first it does come off as a little comic-relief-esque, but later in the series they are considered an important asset. At the very least, all of Kuroshitsuji compares favorably to some of the other shows with questionable queer characters, like Gurren Lagann? Does anybody else have an opinion on this?

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #197 on: September 19, 2009, 11:31:33 pm »
I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

Yes, it always amazes me how often people forget that about Lain. Lain is in fact canonically a yuri series, at one point Lain tells Alice that she "loves her". I guess the rest of that show was just so weird that people were distracted or something XD. And yeah, you need to watch Lain two or three times before it makes sense (I've seen it 4 times!).

Yeah, like I said, I'm not at all surprised.  It always appealed to my group of friends, which can usually tell you something  ::)  I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #198 on: September 20, 2009, 10:21:06 am »
I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Hahaha that is ironic. I am always amused when I ask somebody how an anime they own is and they reply "I haven't seen it". XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #199 on: September 20, 2009, 04:36:38 pm »
I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Hahaha that is ironic. I am always amused when I ask somebody how an anime they own is and they reply "I haven't seen it". XD

Well, usually the stuff I actually own (read: payed money for, as opposed to downloaded), I've seen.  However, I got Lain a few years ago because I friend didn't want it anymore (I think he got a better version or something, this one is slightly bootleged), and of course I accepted it, but I haven't gotten around to watching it.