Crossplay Bathroom?

[murder_of_raven]

Hello there. I have attended Kumoricon for 3 years in a row and am proud to say I look forward to it all year and am rarely disappointed. This year was the first year I have crossplayed, which brings me to my suggestion....

Bathrooms=BAD. I spoke to a few FtM crossplayers who voiced some discomfort about this but as a MtF crossplayer (and transgender) I was absolutely MORTIFIED. Whenever I see this discussion brought up on other forums the final conclusion is "girls don't want guys, crossplaying or not, in their bathrooms and to a less vocal extent vice-versa". And I'm fine with that.

All I would like is for next year there to be ONE bathroom in the entire hotel designated as a "crossplay bathroom" which could either be a one person at a time thing, or be for crossplayers of both genders. If this is against hotel policy perhaps two could be found, one for FtM and one for MtF? It wouldn't have to be heavily advertised or anything, just properly designated and left at that.

Thoughts/Comments? Any chance of this actually happening? Anybody I should specifically contact?

[RemSaverem]

I am totally in favor of this. I have close friends who are mid-transition (FTM) or just finished transition (FTM and MTF). However probably what would be easiest would be to have the Facilities Liason make a map of where all the bathrooms are in the hotel and note which ones are the private, accessible stalls. Example, this year in the EMC just across from our Madison room, was a wheelchair accessible restroom
(designated for women, but only one big room with one toilet, so could have been used privately for anyone of any felt-gender).

Good luck to you in your personal evolution.
Fondly
Rem.

[kylite]

First and foremost I want to say I have nothing against any sexual orientation or gender transition.

that said, the public acceptance in hotels as well as other local facilities has been less then stellar. I am sure we can bring this up to the facilities liaison who can speak with the hotel and see if there is anything we can do. Just dont get angry at us if we cannot.

[murder_of_raven]

Ouch, well that's certainly not great news. Still it would be much appretiated if you guys gave it even just a good effort. ^___^

Oh and if there's anything I could do to help (somehow doubtful) I'd be more than happy. And thank you Rem <3

[RemSaverem]

You're welcome. I think that Facilities Liason making a map of where bathrooms are, and particularly the private ones, is a great idea for everyone: crossplayers, TGs, those who might need to change babies' diapers, people with mobility impairments, etc., most emphatically. The only caveat would be to put a sign up or something reminding folks that they should keep to a reasonable time limit if using those facilities to change cosplays....

[Daxe]

I'm all for your idea but you can't forget that we share these bathrooms with the noncon guests. I just don't see the hotels making concessions.

[Winfred]

Good luck, Rehven! This is a great idea, and I'm sure at least some positive action will be taken now that you brought it up. Believe! =D

[kalira]

Hello there. I have attended Kumoricon for 3 years in a row and am proud to say I look forward to it all year and am rarely disappointed. This year was the first year I have crossplayed, which brings me to my suggestion....

Bathrooms=BAD. I spoke to a few FtM crossplayers who voiced some discomfort about this but as a MtF crossplayer (and transgender) I was absolutely MORTIFIED. Whenever I see this discussion brought up on other forums the final conclusion is "girls don't want guys, crossplaying or not, in their bathrooms and to a less vocal extent vice-versa". And I'm fine with that.

All I would like is for next year there to be ONE bathroom in the entire hotel designated as a "crossplay bathroom" which could either be a one person at a time thing, or be for crossplayers of both genders. If this is against hotel policy perhaps two could be found, one for FtM and one for MtF? It wouldn't have to be heavily advertised or anything, just properly designated and left at that.

Thoughts/Comments? Any chance of this actually happening? Anybody I should specifically contact?

This is entirely out of our control.  I do agree with you, but there is nothing that the con can do to facilitate, or control this aside from passing this info on to the hotel and hope they also think this is a good idea. 

[Rathany]

That would be a great idea.  I really wish we could do that. 

[superjaz]

this is a really good idea, I have a friend who is in trangender and knows all the neutral bathrooms at psu,
I am sure if there is a way to have a desinated neutral bathroom our peeps will find it

[Hawkeye]

It would definitely be nice to do so.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

I'd go with "the bathroom you usually use" and screw what anyone says. If they insult you, report them to the con staff just as you would if they insulted you about anything.

Also, there were single stall bathrooms, as Ellen said, in the business center (not sure why there weren't more given that they were marketed as wheelchair accessable and that would mean that they made wheelchair-bound people go all the way to that corner to use 'em, but hey), and they only have one person at a time, so yeah.

[RemSaverem]

This is entirely out of our control.  I do agree with you, but there is nothing that the con can do to facilitate, or control this aside from passing this info on to the hotel and hope they also think this is a good idea. 

..........and (perhaps at info booth, perhaps in con shwag bags) providing maps of the hotel including the bathrooms, highlighting therein the wheelchair accessible bathrooms, and therein further the single-stall/private bathrooms highlighted amongst all the bathrooms.

It is possible some hotels already publish such for their mobility-impaired clients?

[murder_of_raven]

This is entirely out of our control.  I do agree with you, but there is nothing that the con can do to facilitate, or control this aside from passing this info on to the hotel and hope they also think this is a good idea. 

..........and (perhaps at info booth, perhaps in con shwag bags) providing maps of the hotel including the bathrooms, highlighting therein the wheelchair accessible bathrooms, and therein further the single-stall/private bathrooms highlighted amongst all the bathrooms.

It is possible some hotels already publish such for their mobility-impaired clients?

That would be perfect, assuming there aren't any rules discouraging non-impaired clients from using them. Does anybody know about that?

[RemSaverem]

This is entirely out of our control.  I do agree with you, but there is nothing that the con can do to facilitate, or control this aside from passing this info on to the hotel and hope they also think this is a good idea. 

..........and (perhaps at info booth, perhaps in con shwag bags) providing maps of the hotel including the bathrooms, highlighting therein the wheelchair accessible bathrooms, and therein further the single-stall/private bathrooms highlighted amongst all the bathrooms.

It is possible some hotels already publish such for their mobility-impaired clients?

That would be perfect, assuming there aren't any rules discouraging non-impaired clients from using them. Does anybody know about that?

I don't think there'd be any harm in going through the Hilton's website and seeing what they already have, and if they don't yet have such, asking if they'd be able to provide something like that. It would be a general service of value before, during, and after our con, something the hotel could be proud to offer.

[ThiefKingsHier]

 I'm totally for everyone doing their own thing but

1) the hotel is for everyone. It hosts many conventions all year round as well as general guests. We can't possibly expect them to put in new bathrooms just for our convention.

2) Suppose we did. All kinds of special interest groups would demand the same thing.  It would never end.

I just don't think it's practical to expect such a thing.

[Winfred]

I'm totally for everyone doing their own thing but

1) the hotel is for everyone. It hosts many conventions all year round as well as general guests. We can't possibly expect them to put in new bathrooms just for our convention.

2) Suppose we did. All kinds of special interest groups would demand the same thing.  It would never end.

I just don't think it's practical to expect such a thing.

Ah, I think it's more a matter of having a designated place for people to go without running into trouble than actually installing brand new bathrooms or the like.

[murder_of_raven]

I'm totally for everyone doing their own thing but

1) the hotel is for everyone. It hosts many conventions all year round as well as general guests. We can't possibly expect them to put in new bathrooms just for our convention.

2) Suppose we did. All kinds of special interest groups would demand the same thing.  It would never end.

I just don't think it's practical to expect such a thing.

Ah, I think it's more a matter of having a designated place for people to go without running into trouble than actually installing brand new bathrooms or the like.

She is exactly right, the idea was never for them to put in new bathrooms, it is only for them to designate bathrooms for the safety of their patrons. I hate to put it this way, but even a bigoted hotel should realize if some jerk decides to beat a crossplayer up in the bathrooms, it's not only them that will see court charges. So I think the hotel will probably be more accomodating than we think, seeeing as we are patrons just like everyone else.

[RemSaverem]

I for ten years was a support person for adults with developmental disabilities. We staff frequently would take clients out into the community that were not of the same gender as ourselves and have to deal with public bathroom situations for our clients who, whether in wheelchairs or not, had need for assistance with their toileting. If such a map as I proposed had been available, i.e, let's say the downtown business association of the city of Eugene offered a map to the wheelchair-accessible bathrooms downtown, what businesses did or did not have them, etc., that would have saved us a lot of time having to personally research such every time we went out. Then because of the physical logistics of trying to fit into a stall with a client in a wheelchair, especially noting which were big rooms with single stalls that lock like we had in the EMC, that would have been great for us. So there are multiple groups who would all benefit from the same information, and I would think that the hospitality industry would be receptive to that request. It would not be about allocating the space. Simply letting us know where it is.

[Radien]

Well, I dunno about the larger stance of demanding neutral bathrooms (it's a worthy pursuit, but a bit difficult considering the benefit would only last for one weekend at one location). But I do have a suggestion for helping the crossplayers.

If someone really needs a private bathroom, could we possibly give them permission on an individual basis to use a bathroom in one of the staff suites?  They aren't usually swamped, and whoever is manning the suite at the time could supervise.

Of course, even if staff went for this idea, I'd have to remind everybody that staff have other things to do, especially some of the ones who spend a lot of time in the suites. Still, it'd be closer than going back to your hotel room, if this year's layout is a good example.

(Snrk. Perhaps we could have a new staff position next year: Crossplayer Liaison. )

[Rathany]

(Snrk. Perhaps we could have a new staff position next year: Crossplayer Liaison. )

Actually, if we could get volunteers to staff one male and one female restroom to prevent problems and keep an eye on things, that would work.  Maybe they could serve a dual purpose and also have kits of emergency cosplay supplies like safety pins.  How often have you heard cosplayers asking for safety pins?

This may actually be a job for Maid Squad if we can get enough people.   Maybe a girl bulter and a boy maid?

[Serika]

Wait, would the bathrooms be for transgendered people or just crossplayers who don't actually feel different from what's in their pants? 

(I ask this because I know someone who is transgendered and attends K-con, but doesn't make a lot of effort to look like his true gender, and making things easier for him and others is, you know, always a good thing.)

The girl butler and boy maid thing sounds cute, but it needs to be done seriously... Some of the crossplayers were obviously crossplaying because "lol its funny" and real, actual transvestites/transgenders need the same amount of respect as the rest of the attendees. 

[SpearXXI]

Even though the con is over, I think there was some single bathrooms near the creation station.

[little_miss_ururu]

i agree with the idea of an indicated cross-play restroom and for trans people. 

this is just one of those topics that bugs the sugar and sunshine right outta me!!  why is it that some people seem to be uncomfortable about who is in the bathroom?  i don't mean this about the cross play or trans folks.  i mean the people who point it out or are bothered by it.  why should they even notice??
if they indeed need to use the restroom then why don't they just go in and use the restroom, wash up, and then come on out.

it just makes me wonder how badly they needed to use the restroom in the first place or if they are just dawdling in there.  i understand folks go in there to change, but why should they even be focused on who is in there?  change, check that everything is fine and come on out to show everyone the cosplay you worked so hard on.

idk...to me some people are just so narrow minded.  but i think it is a good idea to have at least one restroom that cross-play/trans folks feel comfortable in!!!!

cerridwen

[shademalek]

(Snrk. Perhaps we could have a new staff position next year: Crossplayer Liaison. )

Actually, if we could get volunteers to staff one male and one female restroom to prevent problems and keep an eye on things, that would work.  Maybe they could serve a dual purpose and also have kits of emergency cosplay supplies like safety pins.  How often have you heard cosplayers asking for safety pins?

This may actually be a job for Maid Squad if we can get enough people.   Maybe a girl bulter and a boy maid?

I think this could run double duty as well. Have that have basic medical supplies as well (band aids and such) so that it could be a full on aid station as well as just a bathroom attendant. They could be there to monitor as well as carry a first aid kit and pins for cosplay first aid. I think that would be an elegant solution.

[Winfred]

(Snrk. Perhaps we could have a new staff position next year: Crossplayer Liaison. )

Actually, if we could get volunteers to staff one male and one female restroom to prevent problems and keep an eye on things, that would work.  Maybe they could serve a dual purpose and also have kits of emergency cosplay supplies like safety pins.  How often have you heard cosplayers asking for safety pins?

This may actually be a job for Maid Squad if we can get enough people.   Maybe a girl bulter and a boy maid?

I think this could run double duty as well. Have that have basic medical supplies as well (band aids and such) so that it could be a full on aid station as well as just a bathroom attendant. They could be there to monitor as well as carry a first aid kit and pins for cosplay first aid. I think that would be an elegant solution.

Oooh, that's a great idea. I'd love to be a part of that! Who doesn't want the power of ridiculous helpfulness, I ask you? 

[BlackjackGabbiani]

why is it that some people seem to be uncomfortable about who is in the bathroom?  i don't mean this about the cross play or trans folks.  i mean the people who point it out or are bothered by it.  why should they even notice??
if they indeed need to use the restroom then why don't they just go in and use the restroom, wash up, and then come on out.

Usually I'd agree with you, given that most times the bathroom is a place to pee and wash your hands, but during a con sometimes you do a full change in there. Heck, I had to.

[reppy]

Well, in my instance, I feel like it's actually more of a benefit to the other people attending than anyone else. Let me give you an example. I was rinsing my hands in the bathroom (wearing my Chi crossplay) and a little boy walks out of one of the stalls. I'm not entirely sure if he was attending the convention; I'm going to assume he was. What's the kid thinking when he walks out and sees a guy dressed as a girl in the same bathroom as him? If I was him, I'd be scared simply because it would seem so strange to me. I'll admit in my case, I don't require an individual bathroom or anything, but I do wonder how the other people in the bathroom feel.

How bad is bigotry at the cons anyways? I guess I always assume we otaku are an enlightened breed that look beyond race, gender, and sexuality. Yet it would appear not everyone has the same outlook as me.

Also, not everyone that crossplays does it because they're transgendered or doing it just for laughs. In my case, it just so happens that Chi is my favorite anime character so I wanted to dress up like her, regardless of gender. Plus hell, I like frills.

[Radien]

Actually, if we could get volunteers to staff one male and one female restroom to prevent problems and keep an eye on things, that would work.  Maybe they could serve a dual purpose and also have kits of emergency cosplay supplies like safety pins.  How often have you heard cosplayers asking for safety pins?

This may actually be a job for Maid Squad if we can get enough people.   Maybe a girl bulter and a boy maid?

Well, I was mostly joking, to tell the truth... I bet most people on maid squad can think of better things to do with their time at con than spend all day in the bathroom. Besides, even though it'd be "nice to have," I'm sure there are more important things they could be doing elsewhere.

As for emergency cosplay supplies, there was a commercial repair booth in the exhibitor's hall, and in the past there has been a repair station elsewhere, though I don't know what it was like this year. If you think a bathroom is a necessity, the solution would be to secure a room for the repair station that has an adjoining bathroom, or is near one, at least.

Oooh, that's a great idea. I'd love to be a part of that! Who doesn't want the power of ridiculous helpfulness, I ask you? 

You mean you'd actually be interested in spending a lot of time hanging out in the bathroom? O_o Well, okay, it'd be interesting if I was proven wrong. Just to be realistic, though, how long would it be before you got tired of being stuck in there as an attendant?

Wait, would the bathrooms be for transgendered people or just crossplayers who don't actually feel different from what's in their pants? 

(I ask this because I know someone who is transgendered and attends K-con, but doesn't make a lot of effort to look like his true gender, and making things easier for him and others is, you know, always a good thing.)

The general idea is that "one-at-a-time" bathrooms with locks solve all of these problems at once. The subject of babies came up because it's often convenient to make a large one-toilet bathroom with a diaper-changing station. With one-toilet bathrooms, they can be gender-neutral because privacy is not a problem.

i agree with the idea of an indicated cross-play restroom and for trans people. 

this is just one of those topics that bugs the sugar and sunshine right outta me!!  why is it that some people seem to be uncomfortable about who is in the bathroom?  i don't mean this about the cross play or trans folks.  i mean the people who point it out or are bothered by it.  why should they even notice??
if they indeed need to use the restroom then why don't they just go in and use the restroom, wash up, and then come on out.

it just makes me wonder how badly they needed to use the restroom in the first place or if they are just dawdling in there.  i understand folks go in there to change, but why should they even be focused on who is in there?  change, check that everything is fine and come on out to show everyone the cosplay you worked so hard on.

idk...to me some people are just so narrow minded.  but i think it is a good idea to have at least one restroom that cross-play/trans folks feel comfortable in!!!!

cerridwen

While I totally echo some of your sentiments, I encourage you to be understanding. We anime fans may be very open-minded, particularly about gender roles, but we live in a society with Puritan roots. In most other western societies, general decency is preferred, but people here take it an extra step by not wanting other people (or failing that, the other gender) to see us take care of "private" duties or even see our underwear.

Americans just generally feel more vulnerable when disrobed. That may change over time, but in the meantime, people are protective over who sees them on the pot. For now, it's just easier to try to have a little something for each mindset than to try to get everybody to think the same. Especially when it only means small, reasonable changes which have multiple benefits. For instance: transgender privacy + disability access + family changing room + diaper station for both moms and dads = WIN.

(This subject has been discussed at length on Crossplay.net. Can you tell?)

[murder_of_raven]

Good job Radien, I must say I agree with everything you've said.

Actually, I'm not sure I have anything else to add at this point. (And yes, methinks I lurked on that thread before.)

[Winfred]

Oooh, that's a great idea. I'd love to be a part of that! Who doesn't want the power of ridiculous helpfulness, I ask you? 

You mean you'd actually be interested in spending a lot of time hanging out in the bathroom? O_o Well, okay, it'd be interesting if I was proven wrong. Just to be realistic, though, how long would it be before you got tired of being stuck in there as an attendant?

Geez, when you say it like that... *shuffles feet* Well, I dunno, I'd like to be helpful is what I'm saying here. I'd help for a few hours then let the next Helpful Person come along and take over for a shift. Or something! A multi-purpose attendant would be a nifty job, is all. I was just mentioning my possible willingness if this possible course of action possibly happened...

[BlackjackGabbiani]

What's the kid thinking when he walks out and sees a guy dressed as a girl in the same bathroom as him? If I was him, I'd be scared simply because it would seem so strange to me.

If that would scare him, he'd have been scared loooooong before he found his way to the bathroom, just by virtue of walking through conspace.

[reppy]

Maybe. But being alone in a bathroom as a kid with a complete stranger is scary enough, let alone with someone dressed like a girl. ^_^;  I guess he didn't seem very scared; I complimented him on his nice suit and was on my way.  But it did get me thinking.

[RemSaverem]

I crossplayed Tuxedo Masks for KC '04 because Live Action Sailor Moon Slumber Party was so fun at KC 2003, and because my former girlfriend had looked so hot wearing a tux for at one of the shows a feminist performance art troupe put on (I used to occasionally hop into those shows myself when I could). It was awesome, I providentially showed up at the '04 Live Action Sailor Moon event precisely when Tuxedo Kamen made his first appearance on the big screen--and was duly given my first glomp by Tom the Fanboy. It felt just like Rocky Horror (not even so much for the crossdressing as for the stepping onto stage in costume when the character comes on the screen!).

Also (and I have no idea if this applies to anyone else, and sorry if this is too personal) I like crossplaying because I don't have to worry about anyone possibly looking at my chest.

[little_miss_ururu]

ok well i tried to do that quote thing and all it did was make me itchy at this wee hour...maybe i will try again when i have had more sleep.

when it comes to things like family bathrooms and changing tables in the men's room...this is a topic i will always comment on to establishments.   i am not sure why it is one of those things with me.  i always let them know that i appreciate the fact that they have family bathrooms ( yeah omsi and cm2) and i will also point out if they don't.  and especially if they don't have a changing table in the mens room. 

i sometimes forget that not everyone is as open minded as our family.  we have a lot of trans friends and are also involved in the glbtp community.  it is frequently a topic of discussion with in that community.  i just forget sometimes....makes me wish others would just accept people as people and not harass them about such things. 

so on 2 hours sleep that is how i feel...

[Radien]

Good job Radien, I must say I agree with everything you've said.

Actually, I'm not sure I have anything else to add at this point. (And yes, methinks I lurked on that thread before.)

Hey, thanks. ^_^  Ummm... I guess that leaves me kinda done with what I have to say on the subject, too; a least for now.

You were on that thread, too? Hm, were you completely lurking, or did you post once or twice?

Geez, when you say it like that... *shuffles feet* Well, I dunno, I'd like to be helpful is what I'm saying here. I'd help for a few hours then let the next Helpful Person come along and take over for a shift. Or something! A multi-purpose attendant would be a nifty job, is all. I was just mentioning my possible willingness if this possible course of action possibly happened...

Well gee, now I feel like I've sabotaged things...

Really, though, I'm just out for your personal benefit. I think we could make use of the idea without requiring people to stay in the bathroom throughout the event. For instance, if we had a room with helpful services that's right next to a bathroom, and one of the volunteers/staff could be available to go into the bathroom and help people with their costumes, on demand.  Wouldn't that be more fun?

In fact, I've had a lot of fun doing that while getting ready with friends in the past. It would capture the feeling of a "green room." (Can't call it exactly that, though, because the Cosplay Contest already has a green room)

Was there something like a "Cosplay Lounge" this year? Or was that at another con?...

[murder_of_raven]

Hey, thanks. ^_^  Ummm... I guess that leaves me kinda done with what I have to say on the subject, too; a least for now.

You were on that thread, too? Hm, were you completely lurking, or did you post once or twice?

Lol I don't even actually have an account (at this point) so I'm sure I was /completely/ lurking. But still, your writing voice sounds familiar, I bet I actually read what you specifically had to say.

[Schlofin]

I have to agree with this as my partner was going to crossplay at this con if he could have gotten his crossplay together in time. This could have been a particularly serious problem as he is a pretty effeminate male anyways and our room was on the 15th floor with 10+ min travel times from the lobby to our floor at times this could have created a problem. We have had issues at cons before as a openly gay couple with biggots I could just imagine what it would have been like if he had been crossplaying. I would be interested in seeing what the con could come up for this situation be it "family" restrooms (you know the big ones that mom and/or dad can take multiple children into) or just a set of restrooms like the ones at the end of the hall near where the main stage was at this years con be designated as "co-ed" or even crossplay as in what ever is under your skirt or in your pants no mater what you are wearing you go into that restroom.

[Winfred]

Really, though, I'm just out for your personal benefit. I think we could make use of the idea without requiring people to stay in the bathroom throughout the event. For instance, if we had a room with helpful services that's right next to a bathroom, and one of the volunteers/staff could be available to go into the bathroom and help people with their costumes, on demand.  Wouldn't that be more fun?

In fact, I've had a lot of fun doing that while getting ready with friends in the past. It would capture the feeling of a "green room." (Can't call it exactly that, though, because the Cosplay Contest already has a green room)

Was there something like a "Cosplay Lounge" this year? Or was that at another con?...

Yeeesss, that would be more fun! Yah, maaaybe when I pseudo-volunteered I didn't imagine myself physically in the bathroom. *cough* I'm not the greatest at thinking ahead. Anyhoo! The Salvation Station, yes, that set-up would work quite well, I'd think!  Maybe? Again, not good at thinking ahead. *headdesk*

[Radien]

Lol I don't even actually have an account (at this point) so I'm sure I was /completely/ lurking. But still, your writing voice sounds familiar, I bet I actually read what you specifically had to say.

Ack, I'm caught, lol. Yeah, I'm sure I did post a little in that thread.

The subject wasn't foreign to me before crossplay came up, though. I took a class at the uni about equality for people with disabilities, and bathroom accessibility is always a hot issue for anyone who uses a wheelchair.

I have to agree with this as my partner was going to crossplay at this con if he could have gotten his crossplay together in time. This could have been a particularly serious problem as he is a pretty effeminate male anyways and our room was on the 15th floor with 10+ min travel times from the lobby to our floor at times this could have created a problem. We have had issues at cons before as a openly gay couple with biggots I could just imagine what it would have been like if he had been crossplaying.

This thread was created with the idea of convenience in mind...your safety is a bigger issue. While staff can't really guarantee your safety outside the con space, consider the hotel your sanctuary. If people start treating you badly anywhere within con space, especially as a result of your sexuality, the con has a right to defend you, since it's our business. The hotel will probably cooperate with the con in reprimanding (and sometimes even removing) people who mistreat attendees.

Yeeesss, that would be more fun! Yah, maaaybe when I pseudo-volunteered I didn't imagine myself physically in the bathroom. *cough* I'm not the greatest at thinking ahead. Anyhoo! The Salvation Station, yes, that set-up would work quite well, I'd think!  Maybe? Again, not good at thinking ahead. *headdesk*

Great, I'm glad you like the idea. But now we really need to talk to somebody who was involved with the repair station, or has been in the past... (I'm not sure what happened once Von Dan ditched the con; he had some repair supplies and was trying to get a repair station going during 2007)

[Rathany]

Two little rolly suitcases labeled 'Cosplay Repair Supplies' got put in the prog suite this year.  So, cosplay repair stuff exists amoung con stuff. 

[Mister_manji]

Two little rolly suitcases labeled 'Cosplay Repair Supplies' got put in the prog suite this year.  So, cosplay repair stuff exists amoung con stuff. 

It got moved to creation station, because prog didn't have any room, or ability to repair costumes.

[Radien]

Two little rolly suitcases labeled 'Cosplay Repair Supplies' got put in the prog suite this year.  So, cosplay repair stuff exists amoung con stuff. 

It got moved to creation station, because prog didn't have any room, or ability to repair costumes.

That's probably for the best, but I'm not sure Creation Station had enough room to actually pull them out.

We might want to put them somewhere more centralized, though. And while we're at it, recruiting someone to replace Dan, since it seems we aren't going to be seeing much of him anymore, unfortunately...

I wonder if Maid Squad would be interested?

[MistressLegato]

I'm curious why people who feel the need to use a gender specific bathroom don't just use the family friendly ones . . . any gender is allowed because it's one person at a time.

It's difficult to expect everyone to try to accomodate the very VERY few.

I understand the difficulty one may have with going through a change, but either use the one you look the most like (because if you look like a girl going to a girl's bathroom, nobody's going to say anything) or go to the one YOU'RE most comfortable with.  Most people aren't going to say anything if you look confident when entering.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

I think it's because there's a difference between "most people" (which is true, most people wouldn't have a problem with it) and "all people" (wherin lies the problem).

[Radien]

I'm curious why people who feel the need to use a gender specific bathroom don't just use the family friendly ones . . . any gender is allowed because it's one person at a time.

It's difficult to expect everyone to try to accomodate the very VERY few.

I understand the difficulty one may have with going through a change, but either use the one you look the most like (because if you look like a girl going to a girl's bathroom, nobody's going to say anything) or go to the one YOU'RE most comfortable with.  Most people aren't going to say anything if you look confident when entering.

It's because gender-specific bathrooms are protected by law. You can look confident while entering, but that's just masquerading as the "correct" gender for the bathroom -- it only works if no one notices. Nobody likes the possibility of being noticed, and having to explain these things to hotel security, or the distant and unlikely (yet quite possible) event of the cops getting involved.

Anyway, if family-friendly bathrooms are available, all the better. That just means our task is to make sure we find out about them before con, and publicize them, even if that only means making the information available to the Info Desk.

[Hawkeye]

I'm curious why people who feel the need to use a gender specific bathroom don't just use the family friendly ones . . . any gender is allowed because it's one person at a time.

It's difficult to expect everyone to try to accomodate the very VERY few.

I understand the difficulty one may have with going through a change, but either use the one you look the most like (because if you look like a girl going to a girl's bathroom, nobody's going to say anything) or go to the one YOU'RE most comfortable with.  Most people aren't going to say anything if you look confident when entering.

The reason for that is because to not at least try to have a gender neutral bathroom violates state and federal statutes against gender and sexual orientation discrimination.  The hotel may or may not have the facilities in order to do this, but it causes no harm for us to at least try so we can accommodate those attendees who are in gender transitioning, or if we have gay/lesbian couples who are afraid of discrimination.

[Radien]

The reason for that is because to not at least try to have a gender neutral bathroom violates state and federal statutes against gender and sexual orientation discrimination.  The hotel may or may not have the facilities in order to do this, but it causes no harm for us to at least try so we can accommodate those attendees who are in gender transitioning, or if we have gay/lesbian couples who are afraid of discrimination.

Hey, I wasn't aware that those were protected by law as well. I guess not everything stays the same.

Anyway, this is obvious by now, but I totally support and encourage the pursuit of private and/or gender neutral bathrooms at con. So remember to bring it up at a meeting during director Q&A, sometime after the elections. (or at elections, if you're impatient, but I doubt Relations will have much of an answer so early in the year...give 'em a breather first)

[Seraph]

slightly off topic, but I felt this picture I took from penguin revolution really shows a crossplayer's dilemma

http://www.geocities.com/janus_97006/crossconfusion.bmp

[TomtheFanboy]

I don't think this is going to happen. I'm looking at logistics. Each floor of the hotel only has one set of bathrooms.



I will check the main lobby for a family bathroom next time I am there. If there is one I will be SURE to add it to our maps.

I would go off more but I don't want you guys to get the wrong opinion of me. I'd rather you hate me for personal reasons that to lump me in as some sort of homophobe.

[Mister_manji]

Yeah, I don't think thats a reasonable expectation to have. We can't exactly re-arrange the hotels layout.

[murder_of_raven]

Yeah... I understand if there isn't something set up but I know we had a lot of ideas here on the thread. I don't think we should just give up immediately if there aren't any family bathrooms.

[Seraph]

a random thought, is there any restrooms besides the ones in the hotel we may be to use?

[murder_of_raven]

a random thought, is there any restrooms besides the ones in the hotel we may be to use?

Eh? If the hotel isn't willing to set aside bathrooms for crossplay use I hardly can imagine a nearby business to.  we're not even their costumers necessarily.

[superjaz]

I will check the main lobby for a family bathroom

I was just thinking about that I think it would be the only real chance

[Schlofin]

The only other thing I could think of is if there is a staff room on the floor above the con space (maybe the ops office if it is in a guest room) that the restroom in that room for a crossplay restroom.

[kylite]

Definitely not ops, far too many sensitive things go through there to be interrupted for "bathroom breaks"

[TomtheFanboy]

Also, There may be bathrooms in the Exhibitor's Hall section, but I doubt it.

[RemSaverem]

Okay, Runa please don't muzzle me for this, but:
Is it entirely out of the question to consider the cosplay greenroom? (If such has a bathroom?)

[ThiefKingsHier]

slightly off topic, but I felt this picture I took from penguin revolution really shows a crossplayer's dilemma

http://www.geocities.com/janus_97006/crossconfusion.bmp

Calll me ignorant, but I still don't understand the problem. People in crossplay are only DRESSED like the opposite sex.

I always crossplay and I've never even thought twice about it.

So are you talking 'crossplay' or actual 'transgender'?

That makes an enormous difference.

If we are talking transgender, good luck, I'm pretty sure this is not the first time it's been brought up in a public setting.

[murder_of_raven]

Calll me ignorant, but I still don't understand the problem. People in crossplay are only DRESSED like the opposite sex.

I always crossplay and I've never even thought twice about it.

So are you talking 'crossplay' or actual 'transgender'?

That makes an enormous difference.

If we are talking transgender, good luck, I'm pretty sure this is not the first time it's been brought up in a public setting.

Umm, well in general we're talking about crossplay, but in specific yes, I am transgender and I know/know of several others who attend Kcon.

And I'm not sure that last part was intended to come off as snarky as it did but as it reads I'm somewhat offended.

[ThiefKingsHier]

Calll me ignorant, but I still don't understand the problem. People in crossplay are only DRESSED like the opposite sex.

I always crossplay and I've never even thought twice about it.

So are you talking 'crossplay' or actual 'transgender'?

That makes an enormous difference.

If we are talking transgender, good luck, I'm pretty sure this is not the first time it's been brought up in a public setting.

Umm, well in general we're talking about crossplay, but in specific yes, I am transgender and I know/know of several others who attend Kcon.

And I'm not sure that last part was intended to come off as snarky as it did but as it reads I'm somewhat offended.

As far as crossplay is concerned I really don't understand the problem.

That's too bad, because it wasn't meant to be snarky at all.  I'm a pretty honest person, if I were intentionally trying to offend someone, there would be no question.

It was just an observation; there are many, MANY, special interest groups out there. I would be very surprised if a transgender group had not already brought this up.

[Neolucky]

I understand the needs and wants of those who are transgendered, but I'll be frank:

If you're female physically - You go to the ladies room.
If you're male physically - You go to the mens room.

Mentality has little to do with your bodily functions.

I hate to make this so black and white, but seriously, think realistically about this: What hotel will accommodate this? I don't see this ever coming to light and actually being figured out to be honest. I feel it's kind of a waste of time to suggest this, considering explaining it to the facilities alone would be a headache and they too, will not understand the issue.

I personally do not see what the problem is, and will echo ThiefKingsHier here. However I am not ignorant, and very -very- aware of those who are transgendered and have plenty of friends who are. But flat out, if you are physically one or the other, go to the according bathroom and use a stall, or find a private bathroom if you're uncomfortable otherwise. I don't see how not having a transgendered bathroom is discriminatory.

If you find this offensive, then so be it. The intention isn't there but I can't stop others from reading into what I type negatively.

[Seraph]

I believe the reason for crossplayers wanting it is sometimes going into the proper restroom(as specificed by their everyday gender) and then get into trouble for supposely going into the "wrong" restroom.  I've read stories where a crossplayer either had to strip/show ID to prove their everyday gender.

The other factor is that while con goers tend to be more open minded, not all of them are so there is a fear of a social attack by such people who may or may not be part of the con.

And is it really so bad for crossplayers to ask for it?

[Neolucky]

I believe the reason for crossplayers wanting it is sometimes going into the proper restroom(as specificed by their everyday gender) and then get into trouble for supposely going into the "wrong" restroom.  I've read stories where a crossplayer either had to strip/show ID to prove their everyday gender.

The other factor is that while con goers tend to be more open minded, not all of them are so there is a fear of a social attack by such people who may or may not be part of the con.

And is it really so bad for crossplayers to ask for it?

It's not bad for them to ask it. But I think it's simply a request that will be pretty much ignored by the facilities. And well... if someone's going to cross-play, I think they should already understand the ramifications of doing so. If they gotta show Id/strip, then it means they're pretty damn good at it! But that goes without saying, if you're going to run around dressed as an opposite gender/character, then you should realize people will mistake you for that gender.

[Seraph]

will some of the issues is not obvious to a crossplayer.  as for stripping, I personally, if one that has to go that far, thats a major issue for crossplayers as it can be time consuming and embarrassing.  if crossplayers can avoid that, it would be an relief.

FYI, the request was not ignored by the con staff, rather it was rejected by the hotel which also disappoints transexuals and disable(see earlier in  thread).

[BlackjackGabbiani]

If you're at a con, you should expect crossplayers. If you see someone walk into the bathroom, chances are that's the bathroom they need to be in, even if you don't see it visually.

[ThiefKingsHier]

I understand the needs and wants of those who are transgendered, but I'll be frank:

If you're female physically - You go to the ladies room.
If you're male physically - You go to the mens room.

...If you find this offensive, then so be it. The intention isn't there but I can't stop others from reading into what I type negatively.

Yea, that's exactly how I feel about it.  

As far as being asked to show ID, it's bull. They can ASK you but they can't legally force to show it your ID.

 If you want to change your gender you have every right and I support you, but you can't expect the rest of the world to change with you.
(Hell, most people wont even except gay marriage, so there's a ways to go)

FYI, the request was not ignored by the con staff, rather it was rejected by the hotel which also disappoints transexuals and disable(see earlier in  thread).

...as morally objectionable as it may be, as a private are a private business they can legally discriminate however they choose.

[Seraph]

as it was mentioned earlier, it is legally required that you go into your everyday gender restroom.  in the example I mentioned, a girl who crossplayed went into the ladies restroom as she was suppose to but had to pull ID/strip to prove she was entering the correct restroom.  I presume if she hadn't, she may been place in further trouble with the con/police as they're in the impression she is a man entering the ladies restroom.

I was merely stating that request wasn't ignored by the con but rather turned down by the hotel.

Now are you objecting to crossplayers who want a family restroom or crossplayer who think they can use the other restroom since they're pretending to be the other?  The intent of the thread is the former, merely a request to see if the con can get a family restroom that would benefit more then just the crossplayers. 

[Rathany]

I understand the needs and wants of those who are transgendered, but I'll be frank:

If you're female physically - You go to the ladies room.
If you're male physically - You go to the mens room.

Mentality has little to do with your bodily functions.

I hate to make this so black and white, but seriously, think realistically about this: What hotel will accommodate this?

Trust me when I say that I have friends who don't have a clear physical gender   But, being transgen or genderqueer and being a crossplayer are somewhat different things.  A separate bathroom is not feasable.  So, I think it's best to try to think of ways we can help make sure that none of our attendees feel anxious about using the restrooms.  I still think the Maids are the ideal solution, but that depends on how many we get.  Even if we have enough, bathrooms can't be staffed 24/7. 

I do have one possible idea bubbling in my mind, but we need to wait until we have a finalized layout for this to work. 

Would any kind of posted notice help at all, do ya think?  If nothing else it could make it clear that the con supports our crossplayers / transgender / intersex / genderqueer / dude-looks-like-a-lady population. 

[ThiefKingsHier]

as it was mentioned earlier, it is legally required that you go into your everyday gender restroom.  in the example I mentioned, a girl who crossplayed went into the ladies restroom as she was suppose to but had to pull ID/strip to prove she was entering the correct restroom.  I presume if she hadn't, she may been place in further trouble with the con/police as they're in the impression she is a man entering the ladies restroom.

I was merely stating that request wasn't ignored by the con but rather turned down by the hotel.

Now are you objecting to crossplayers who want a family restroom or crossplayer who think they can use the other restroom since they're pretending to be the other?  The intent of the thread is the former, merely a request to see if the con can get a family restroom that would benefit more then just the crossplayers. 

It supposedly happened once?  That makes a difference that means that:
A) someone in the restroom made a big about it until hotel staff did something,
B they just happened to enter during the time one of those nasty hotel security which most if not all of us have  encountered
C) Didn't happen.

If she hadn't and the con police WERE involved she would have told everyone about it ( and possibly even taken them to court) the story woud eventually escalate into 'this hotel ID's everyone who enters their restrooms and would just be bad publicity for the hotel.


 I have no objection to crossplayers wanting a family restroom, most places have them anyway, but I most definitely have a problem with crossplaying trying to use both bathrooms.

[Seraph]

I'll admit I have no way of knowing the truth of the event I mentioned.  It could be a rumor at best, something I heard over a cosplay.com.  While its very unlikely to happen to that extreme, I"m pretty crossplayers would like to avoid any chance of it if they could by merely asking for a family restroom.


ahh okay.  I wasn't quite clear on what your entire position was.  But yeah, people should enter the restroom according to their everyday gender. 

[kylite]

and for those "few" hermaphrodites My personal opinion is go in whichever restroom you most closely resemble. thus causing the least amount of commotion for everyone including yourself.

otherwise if you have the "equipment", go in which room the equipment was designed for.

[superjaz]

and for those "few" hermaphrodites

Its really not all that rare unfountualy

[MistressLegato]

I agree with Neo and said basically the same thing.

Also, as a CROSS-PLAYER, I've only ever used the women's restroom in cross-play because I'm not a real.  It looks like the issue here is accommodating an incredibly small portion of the actually trans-gender population.

[Radien]

I agree with Neo and said basically the same thing.

Also, as a CROSS-PLAYER, I've only ever used the women's restroom in cross-play because I'm not a real.  It looks like the issue here is accommodating an incredibly small portion of the actually trans-gender population.

If it appears that way, I think we're getting sidetracked. The original poster may be transgendered, so naturally it's hard to forget that fact, but s/he brought it up specifically for the benefit of crossplayers, since they're more common at anime cons.

The way I see it, we should be looking for the easiest, simplest, and most universally accepted solution. That means taking the minority of crossplayers and offering them an alternative. I seriously think that all of the demand for a private bathroom could be accommodated by directing the few people who bring it up towards the con suite, escorted by a maid or regular staffer.  If more people take advantage of this than we expected, why don't we look at the service as a "success" and simply see about putting even more thought into it the following year? Hey, it worked for Maid Squad and the Cat Ears Workshop.

After reading this thread, I'd say that it was never a request for crossplayers to use the opposite restroom of their physical gender. There just happened to be a few people who mentioned that they'd done so in the past, by their own judgment, and would prefer another alternative. Fortunately for staff, they weren't any fiascoes about it, eh?

[ThiefKingsHier]

I agree with Neo and said basically the same thing.

Also, as a CROSS-PLAYER, I've only ever used the women's restroom in cross-play because I'm not a real.  It looks like the issue here is accommodating an incredibly small portion of the actually trans-gender population.

The way I see it...

The way i see it, why oh WHY is this an issue at all?

Use the bathroom you do every other damned day.  Clothhing is completley irrelevant.

[Seraph]

@ThiefKing
umm...did you read all of what Radien wrote?  No one is asking to be able to using the opposite restroom.  Radien only suggested that a con suite be set aside to be used as a family restroom.  thats the whole intent of the thread, to see of there is someway the con could have family restroom(that would benefit more then just crossplayers).

[ThiefKingsHier]

@ThiefKing
umm...did you read all of what Radien wrote?  No one is asking to be able to using the opposite restroom.  Radien only suggested that a con suite be set aside to be used as a family restroom.  thats the whole intent of the thread, to see of there is someway the con could have family restroom(that would benefit more then just crossplayers).

  Yea, I know. I just don't see why that is even necessary.  If it is THAT big of a problem for someone there are bathrooms in the hotel rooms.

[Radien]

On the other hand, ThiefKingsHier, I find it amazing how the people opposing the idea could be quite so fervent when their only reason for opposition is "I don't understand why this is such a big deal." Nobody said it was a "big deal" (at least, not just when it's just about crossplayers), but plenty of people questioned why they care, and the crossplayers and their friends answered.

If there's a simple answer, it's more reasonable to simply address the problem. It's not like my suggestion is really inconveniencing anybody. Have you seen the con suite? It's usually empty. The con is paying for it, so why not make use of it for 3 or 4 more people a day?

If it is THAT big of a problem for someone there are bathrooms in the hotel rooms.

Would YOU like to go back to your room every single time you need to use the restroom?  Besides, as I'm sure somebody else has mentioned in this thread, not everybody stays in hotel rooms at the main con hotel, and some people don't stay at the hotel at all because they live close enough to commute.  Distance *is* the problem here.

Anyway, I'd be happy to reiterate what other people said in this thread said about their reasoning, but no offense, you seem more interested in expressing incredulity than actually listening.

[ThiefKingsHier]

On the other hand, ThiefKingsHier, I find it amazing how the people opposing the idea could be quite so fervent when their only reason for opposition is "I don't understand why this is such a big deal."

 No, see, you haven't answered the question, just given offended knee-jerk reactions/insults.

 The question is: " What is this PROBLEM that needs to be addressed?"
  " Why, is it a PROBLEM for a crossplayer to use a gender specific- bathroom?"

 By problem, I mean a real, physical, serious setback/issue, not minor inconvenience. 

 One or two sentences, which have a noun, subject and verb. Not a paragraph ranting about ignorance intolerance ect.

 Do that and I'll be more than happy to consider what your saying.

[Seraph]

Its more a social issue.  both types of crossplayer have express some discomfort when they crossplay.  Not as big issue for the FtM cosplayers from what I've heard, but a bigger concern for MtF crossplayers.  going to into one's everyday restroom can create problems if they look very much the opposite gender they're cosplaying as.  While FtM only have worry about being mistaken for a real male, MtF also worry about the fact in the greater social picture, crossdressing is look down upon and you won't always have a open minded person at the convention who may not be a con attende.  Much rather avoid a potential incident then have to go to the convention/hotel staff to resolve the issue. 

as for people, who decide to use a private restroom instead, going to one's room can be very time consuming as the elavator are usually very busy and can only get worse if a person's room is very high up.  And as Radien mentioned, some people will commute to the convention and the travel times they have to go thru will be much greater.

I suppose by your opinion, this is just a minor inconvenience.  But then, I dun see whats the problem asking the convention staff to see if they get a simple solution for it.  No one is asking the convention or hotel to bend over backwards for this

[murder_of_raven]

On the other hand, ThiefKingsHier, I find it amazing how the people opposing the idea could be quite so fervent when their only reason for opposition is "I don't understand why this is such a big deal."

 No, see, you haven't answered the question, just given offended knee-jerk reactions/insults.

 The question is: " What is this PROBLEM that needs to be addressed?"
  " Why, is it a PROBLEM for a crossplayer to use a gender specific- bathroom?"

 By problem, I mean a real, physical, serious setback/issue, not minor inconvenience. 

 One or two sentences, which have a noun, subject and verb. Not a paragraph ranting about ignorance intolerance ect.

 Do that and I'll be more than happy to consider what your saying.

Okay, don't know if this'll help but as an actual crossplay/transgendered person and not a hypothetical one I can explain specifics, I just haven't because they didn't seem relevent.

I live close enough to commute but WAY too far to go back for a bathroom, thus I do not have any access whatsoever to my own hotel room. That is 100% not an option for me.

I am convincing enough that I'm "mistaken" for a girl roughly 50% of the time and hope to increase my rate of success. Yes, this is my goal but it presents a real problem in a bathroom situation: at best it's very awkward, at worst security is called etc etc etc.

Also I hate to be like this but transexual/transgender teenagers are statistically the largest victim of hate crimes in the entire country, period. And what is the most common place they are harrassed? Public restrooms.

So I, not some hypothetical crossplayer it might be easy to concieve, face an all too real risk of either public humiliation if I go to a crowded bathroom, or getting harrassed (or worse) if I go to an untrafficked bathroom.

And I'm not the only person in /exactly/ this situation. And there are more who are in similar situations.

So yes, I believe this is an entirely valid issue. Does that qualify as a "real, physical, serious setback/issue, not minor inconvenience" to you?

[Rathany]

I agree with Neo and said basically the same thing.

Also, as a CROSS-PLAYER, I've only ever used the women's restroom in cross-play because I'm not a real.  It looks like the issue here is accommodating an incredibly small portion of the actually trans-gender population.

If it appears that way, I think we're getting sidetracked. The original poster may be transgendered, so naturally it's hard to forget that fact, but s/he brought it up specifically for the benefit of crossplayers, since they're more common at anime cons.

The way I see it, we should be looking for the easiest, simplest, and most universally accepted solution. That means taking the minority of crossplayers and offering them an alternative. I seriously think that all of the demand for a private bathroom could be accommodated by directing the few people who bring it up towards the con suite, escorted by a maid or regular staffer.  If more people take advantage of this than we expected, why don't we look at the service as a "success" and simply see about putting even more thought into it the following year? Hey, it worked for Maid Squad and the Cat Ears Workshop.

After reading this thread, I'd say that it was never a request for crossplayers to use the opposite restroom of their physical gender. There just happened to be a few people who mentioned that they'd done so in the past, by their own judgment, and would prefer another alternative. Fortunately for staff, they weren't any fiascoes about it, eh?

I have seen alot of crossplayers at Kcon.  I, um, tend to notice them alot
Anyway, having them all dress up in con suite?  I do not like that idea.  Con Suite is supposed to be a quiet space for staffers to escape.  If we are even having just 20 or 30 people using that to change twice a day and go to the bathroom that is quite a bit of traffic.  Also, this year the main area  of con suite had a separate bathroom.  In the suites I have viewed at the new hotel, this was not the case.  I am definitly against having people tromp through a director's bedroom.  I got little enough sleep as it was, and it was at odd hours sometimes.   

At peak times it could take 10 minutes to get to con suite and 10 to get back to the main con space.  So, add in time to powder one's nose or change and this is adding up to a huge drain on resources.  I think that a staffed bathroom would be less of a drain.  Even if it's just ten people twice a day and just fifteen minutes each, that is already 5 hours of work ... and not work in where it would be one after the other.  We'd have busy times and slow times.  And what if we get lots of requests during the peak times for registration?

Also, if it's more like 20 or 30 people a day and 15-25 minutes per ... yeah, the numbers start adding up to really big totals. 

I am really against the idea of using con suite for this.  Keep in mind that it is likely going to be a much smaller suite next year.  Doubletree has the biggest suites in Portland.

Also, on a personal note, I reeeeealy needed the fact that con suite was always calm and quiet in 2007. 

[TomtheFanboy]

Since there is only one bathroom per floor (still haven't figured out whether there's a "family one" there) we will not be able to set any aside. However I believe that it might behoove the yojimbo staff to have whomever is assigned to patrol the floor make a regular check of the restrooms for any problems. the yojimbo already travel in pairs and if they are lucky enough to get a good male/female ratio this year they should be able to get people into both. I doubt we'll ever have enough yojimbo to guaranteed a "potty guard" but you all can help by enlisting as staff with the yojimbo to get us closer to that goal! 

It is not likely that I'll be visiting the hotel again before the Elections (OMG! less than 2 weeks away!) however I will be sure to check for any restrooms I may have missed. Paritcularly family restrooms that are non-specific on gender.

[murder_of_raven]

Since there is only one bathroom per floor (still haven't figured out whether there's a "family one" there) we will not be able to set any aside. However I believe that it might behoove the yojimbo staff to have whomever is assigned to patrol the floor make a regular check of the restrooms for any problems. the yojimbo already travel in pairs and if they are lucky enough to get a good male/female ratio this year they should be able to get people into both. I doubt we'll ever have enough yojimbo to guaranteed a "potty guard" but you all can help by enlisting as staff with the yojimbo to get us closer to that goal! 

It is not likely that I'll be visiting the hotel again before the Elections (OMG! less than 2 weeks away!) however I will be sure to check for any restrooms I may have missed. Paritcularly family restrooms that are non-specific on gender.

Thank you so much, as a crossplayer I personally feel that is the most we could possibly ask for. :3 I hope we have good luck with the family bathroom thingy or another viable alternative can be found if we don't.

And yes, I personally never would've even dreampt of suggesting we use the con suite.

[Pezzer]

I have brought this up to our hotel contact, and asked for the Hotels imput on this. the suggestion they would like to go with is taking one bathroom and labeling it 'crossplay' though i am really sure about this since well it would be the one near main events and gaming.

but this also notes that the hotel is really willing to work with us on this.

[BlackjackGabbiani]

I think if anyone gets freaked out by a crossplayer, they have no business being at an anime con.

[Seraph]

@blackjack
maybe, but there are non con goers using the hotel.   and there is the sad fact there are few con goers that won't be civil about it if they dislike it.

[Rathany]

@blackjack
maybe, but there are non con goers using the hotel.   and there is the sad fact there are few con goers that won't be civil about it if they dislike it.

But, as I have said before, we have ALL the con space.  We can't disallow hotel guests downstairs and in other bits of con space, but it I doubt many of them are going to try to go into areas where there are no hotel rooms and no reason to be there outside of the con.  We are only like to have a mix of con people and other peoples on the ground floor. 

[ThiefKingsHier]

So yes, I believe this is an entirely valid issue. Does that qualify as a "real, physical, serious setback/issue, not minor inconvenience" to you?

Don't think I'm ignoring you or that this post was of yoru time, but Transgander is not the question ( for me)  right now.
 Even if it were, I really don't think it should be discussed here. That would open a whole can of worms far too massive for this forum.

I DO understand why it's a problem for Transgender. It's the male or female crossplayers that I don't understand.

[Seraph]

those who have problems with transgender people will see crossplayers another transgender person even if they're technically not. 

[ThiefKingsHier]

those who have problems with transgender people will see crossplayers another transgender person even if they're technically not. 

...what?

 If I get what your trying to say, then it's assumption based on hearsay and rumors. Try and take something like this to a court and they would throw it out.

[Seraph]

if someone who hates transgender people or just plain homophobes, see a person crossplaying, they will think only transgender/gay people would want to dress up as the opposite gender and can lash out at that person.

[MistressLegato]

I think you're going out on a MASSIVE limb of assumption, Seraph.

Nobody has ever assumed that I'm transgender, lesbian, whatever just because I crossplay because when I go to a con, people know what crossplay is.

When I'm at the mall in cosplay, people ask "Why the costume?"  "Did Halloween come early?"  And I politely explain what the event is about and why I'm dressed how I am.

I had a Christian guy ask me why I preferred to dress as male characters and I told him that the gender of a character didn't matter to me because I liked their personality.

There will also be people out there who are just a*holes, but I've, personally, never had an issue.  I've never had a restroom issue with my crossplay.

I crossplayed as Zell Dincht once and people honest to god, thought I was a boy, but when they realized that I wasn't, nobody questioned me using the restroom.

If you are transgendered, it's tough spot, but you need to use the restroom that you're legally supposed to. 

[Seraph]

I admit I may be doing a large presumtion.  But do note that its generally isn't seen big deal or even a issue in in FtM.  The worse that could happen is being confused for guy entering the ladies' restroom and someone crying foul.  MtF can be a much bigger issue as there is people who are very judgemental who believe that since women's clothes are for women only, only a transgender man would want to wear them.

I have to ask, why the should the request for a family restroom be thrown out without consideration that you seem to feel?  Is it because you feel its too minor of a issue?

[murder_of_raven]

I have brought this up to our hotel contact, and asked for the Hotels imput on this. the suggestion they would like to go with is taking one bathroom and labeling it 'crossplay' though i am really sure about this since well it would be the one near main events and gaming.

but this also notes that the hotel is really willing to work with us on this.

Wow that's way better news than I was expecting to hear. And yes, that's the solution I would most prefer as well but if it won't work than at least we know the hotel is willing to work with us.

Idea: It doesn't actually have to be labled "Crossplay", in fact that might be a magnet for potential predetors. What about the much more general "Gender Neutral" which would have the bonus effect of allowing everybody to use the bathroom closest to the main events and gaming. And if an individual is uncomfortable with this idea or needs to be changing or something, they can always use their respective gender bathroom elsewhere.

Honestly I don't see why people are so caught up about seperating genders in bathrooms. It's not like a preditor is going to be held away by a simple sign and /lots/ of places in Europe don't have gender specific bathrooms. If we were allowed to use a female bathroom we'd even have cozy stalls around everybody.

What does everybody think of that solution? As I recall, when I origionally brought this up the major argument against it was "The hotel will be against it".

[ThiefKingsHier]

I think you're going out on a MASSIVE limb of assumption, Seraph.

Nobody has ever assumed that I'm transgender, lesbian, whatever just because I crossplay because when I go to a con, people know what crossplay is.

When I'm at the mall in cosplay, people ask "Why the costume?"  "Did Halloween come early?"  And I politely explain what the event is about and why I'm dressed how I am.

I had a Christian guy ask me why I preferred to dress as male characters and I told him that the gender of a character didn't matter to me because I liked their personality.

There will also be people out there who are just a*holes, but I've, personally, never had an issue.  I've never had a restroom issue with my crossplay.

I crossplayed as Zell Dincht once and people honest to god, thought I was a boy, but when they realized that I wasn't, nobody questioned me using the restroom.

If you are transgendered, it's tough spot, but you need to use the restroom that you're legally supposed to. 

That is exactly how Ifeel on..every point. Don't know why it always has to be said by someone else. but thanks none the less.
I have never ever cosplayed as a girl and no one has given me any problems at all.

I have to ask, why the should the request for a family restroom be thrown out without consideration that you seem to feel?  Is it because you feel its too minor of a issue?

Yes, that is exactly why.

[DancingTofu]

As someone who wears a skirt when he plays DDR (better air flow, less restricting) and has hair down to his butt, it is an awkward situation when someone even thinks you're not the gender you identify yourself as when they walk into the restroom.  It's an immediate panic for them.  "Oh crap, I just walked into the ladies' room."  It makes people uncomfortable when that kind of confusion exists.  The fact that the hotel is willing to designate a restroom for crossplay solves a lot of awkward situations for crossplayers, observers, and those weird Tofu Folk who look like ladies from the back but men from the front.  This discussion really has no reason to continue from there, and it's just becoming a series of personal arguments.

Ideally, we'd have a designated "changing stalls" room or area, but the setup for that would be hell if we wanted to do it right.  Good news though: there are hundreds of private rooms in the facility, and you've got months to reserve one so you don't need to worry about these kinds of things.

[kylite]

rather then look at this from the point of view of the request, I am going to look at it from the point of logistics.

1 bathroom per floor (in con space)
4000+ attendees

is it really advisable to set one of these aside all for a small select crowd?

if this is such a huge issue, then my suggestion is if you have a hotel room and are one of the people affected by this argument, then offer to share your room and facilities with the rest affected by this argument.

[ThiefKingsHier]

rather then look at this from the point of view of the request, I am going to look at it from the point of logistics.

1 bathroom per floor (in con space)
4000+ attendees

is it really advisable to set one of these aside all for a small select crowd?

 I was wondering the very same thing.
 I stick with my idea of just going to your hot room.  Yea, it may be far but it's your choice and  sometimes you have to make 'sacrifices' to get something you really want.

[Rathany]

rather then look at this from the point of view of the request, I am going to look at it from the point of logistics.

1 bathroom per floor (in con space)
4000+ attendees

is it really advisable to set one of these aside all for a small select crowd?

 I was wondering the very same thing.
 I stick with my idea of just going to your hot room.  Yea, it may be far but it's your choice and  sometimes you have to make 'sacrifices' to get something you really want.

I agree with Kylite.  But, at the same time it is the duty of the con to make sure that our attendees feel safe and welcome.  Right now, I can't really say/promise much.  Can we pls give the topic as a whole a bit of a rest until after we have a new board and a layout for the hotel?  Please?  We higher ups are pretty much hamstrung until then.  Prog may be unopposed, but Ops also gets a say in this and Ops has many people running for it. 

The people who really need to deal with this CANNOT do so yet ... partially because we don't know who they are. 

If the Family bathroom idea works out, I think that's great.  Is allows space for cosplayers without disallowing other attendees.  Again, we can't move on this yet. 

[BlackjackGabbiani]

@blackjack
maybe, but there are non con goers using the hotel.   and there is the sad fact there are few con goers that won't be civil about it if they dislike it.

They can suck it up. If they can't be civil, that's why we have security.

I notice this thread seems to be about the reactions of those around the affected people rather than the affected people themselves, and again I repeat that's why we have security.

[ThiefKingsHier]

@blackjack
maybe, but there are non con goers using the hotel.   and there is the sad fact there are few con goers that won't be civil about it if they dislike it.

They can suck it up. If they can't be civil, that's why we have security.

Ah..I missed this one. Seraph, you seem to have the idea that all people are generally mean and nasty. That's not always true. Why are you SO afraid of their reactions? There is nothing they can physically do to you.

Heh,  it is also why well have  things called 'civil law/torts" as well as the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness without prosecution. >D

[Rathany]

Guys, let's keep the conversation posative, OK?  Some of the comments are starting to be about specific people and not about the stated topic. 

[TomtheFanboy]

Actually Dawn I think that I'm just going to lock this thread until next week. I feel that it would have been best to lock it on Dawn's last comment but I had hoped that everyone would have taken her queue. After the election we will see who is the Operations Director as well as have a good chance to look at the hotel space itself. I won't delete anything and if anyone feels they "weren't able to defend themselves" they can wait until after the thread is unlocked again. There are already other threads about homophobia and other issues of bias in the convention.

There's just been too much trouble here.

[TomtheFanboy]

OK The topic is unlocked. Please stay civil.

I found that my layout was off in regards to the main lobby so I'll be changing my map around soon.

Also there is no family bathroom anywhere in the conspace. I will check the executive tower at a later date. Continue the debate/discussion if you'd like but keep in mind that as of right now we are limited to 2 bathrooms per floor, one marked ladies and one marked gentlemen.