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RoundTop

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Couple of complaints
« on: September 07, 2004, 08:25:39 pm »
I was at Kumoricon and have a couple of complaints/suggestions:

1) The sound levels at the dance were WAY too loud.  I would suggest a sound pressure meter so you don't make people deaf (no, I am not exaggerating).  I have been to rock concerts quieter than that dance.  No problems with the music..but the fact I could stand by the escalators and listen without trying

2)  Except for handicap access elevators should not have been accessible to congoers on LL1 and LL2.  this bogged them down.

3) Information about local places to eat and things in the area in the con book would have helped.

Other than that, congratulations on breaking 1000 people in your second year.

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Offline kylite

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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2004, 09:21:50 pm »
im going to have to agree.  for security those elevators became nightmares as soon as dealer room pass's were sold because peole would bypass the stairs and use the elevators.  then if they couldnt get into the room they would just ride up and down.  limited access to the LL1 and LL2 levels would have saved alot of trouble there.
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Offline princessfrodo

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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2004, 09:26:56 pm »
The suggestion for not allowing anyone but the handycapped to access LL1 and LL2 is great, we simply didn't have the staff for it this year.

Hopefully next year we will. (So go out and volonteer for staff, hint hint ^.^ )
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Offline zenix

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2004, 09:34:00 pm »
marked places to eat would have been a godsend

Offline Radien

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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2004, 09:53:18 pm »
Please forgive us for not having felt out for enough information about the Portland area surroundings. Though we acquired many new volunteers in the Portland area, all of our staff from last year save a few were from Lane County and nearby areas, so we're still familiarizing ourselves with the scary prospect of navigating Portland (at least I find it scary, having never driven far in a big city).

It still wouldn't have been a huge task, but since we were strapped for staff (and time) it got overlooked.

(Being across the street from a sub shop was enough to keep me happy for days, but I know not everyone is me ;))

You're totally right about handicapped access to LL1 and LL2, and it makes me feel like somewhat of an ass for having used the elevators to and from those levels a few times... but I never used them for travelling between LL1 and LL2; I hope no one else did either. :?

Rest assured that a lot of us don't like the way the Marriott only built stairs to meet fire codes (save for the lowest level), and we're going to do our best to account for the problem next year (unless of course we secure a different venue).
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Offline Dustin

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Couple of complaints
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2004, 09:54:29 pm »
Regarding information on places to eat, it is avaliable on this website, having it inside the book probably would have made it better, too.

My only complaints about the con are certain events getting cancelled, such as the Red vs. White thing, I barely got to hear what it was about, and from what I understood, it sounded like alot of fun.

Also, the Scavanger Hunt thing could have gone better, I'm not sure anyone found what was on the wanted poster, as the same wanted poster was up for all three days (it was still up when I left Monday).

Other than those two things, I had a great time.

Offline FilkAeris

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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2004, 09:58:26 pm »
No one could tell *what* that thing was.  The photo made it look like a toilet brush.  ^_^

Interestingly, the hotel had flyers available at the front desk that were customized to welcome congoers to their establishment and contained a list of local eateries.  I think they even had a rudimentary map.  What puzzled me was why those flyers were just in a stack at the front desk of the hotel, rather than included in the con swag bags...but perhaps they didn't tell you guys about them?

...anyway, they spelled it "Kimori-con" for some reason.  Tree-woods-con.  Wonderful.

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Offline Radien

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2004, 09:58:55 pm »
Quote from: "Dustin"
Also, the Scavanger Hunt thing could have gone better, I'm not sure anyone found what was on the wanted poster, as the same wanted poster was up for all three days (it was still up when I left Monday).


This is because every time it was found, staff waited two hours and then "hid" it again. :) The people who worked at the info desk might be able to tell you how many times it was found within the three days.

And for everyone's information, the "object" was dubbed the "Master Plunger." 8) They found a rather strange-looking plunger at Fred Meyer and painted it silver and black. To me it looked kinda like an accordian lightsaber......
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Offline Dustin

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2004, 10:35:41 pm »
Quote from: "Radien"
Quote from: "Dustin"
Also, the Scavanger Hunt thing could have gone better, I'm not sure anyone found what was on the wanted poster, as the same wanted poster was up for all three days (it was still up when I left Monday).


This is because every time it was found, staff waited two hours and then "hid" it again. :) The people who worked at the info desk might be able to tell you how many times it was found within the three days.

And for everyone's information, the "object" was dubbed the "Master Plunger." 8) They found a rather strange-looking plunger at Fred Meyer and painted it silver and black. To me it looked kinda like an accordian lightsaber......

I may be mistaken about this, but wern't the items on the wanted posters supposed to be changed to something else at certain intervals?

I believe it says so in the book that came with my bag.

If it was going to remain the same image, shouldn't the staff have informed everyone that they would have to be searching for the same thing over and over again?

I was just thinking that nobody ever found it, so they never changed the image like they where supposed to.

This part of the con was confusing, to say the least.

Offline Radien

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2004, 10:49:11 pm »
Wha?... At the staff meetings I never heard mention of there being any other items, and there most certainly was never any other "Wanted" poster printed...

Either there was a miscommunication regarding the printed booklets, or there was in fact a last-minute change. Just FYI, the lack of updated information is part of a larger problem mentioned earlier, where someone suggested that we print a daily "zine" (probably better described as a daily newsletter) which might contain daily information about the con, room party announcements, and schedule changes.

Staff will be looking into this, but it sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I'm willing to bet it will be implemented next year. :)

P.S. - By the way, regardless of how many times it was found, the Master Plunger was frequently on the move. Sometimes a staff member carried it around waiting for someone to ask for it. I saw it once in a very crowded area: two staffers set it right next to the projector being used for the DDR tournament. Nobody noticed for at least awhile; they were too absorbed with watching the screen!! :o
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Offline zenix

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2004, 10:52:12 pm »
what was that red vs white thing?

and i wont drive in portland if i dont have to eather to many one way streets for me to go the wrong way on (never done that but still worrys me that i will)

walking is so much easyer luckly my sister and i knew where carls jr was so we were good

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Offline Radien

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2004, 11:00:21 pm »
Quote from: "zenix"
what was that red vs white thing?

If you're talking about the Red and White Show, that's a special event that is broadcast every year in Japan on New Year's. It showcases many different famous Japanese performers, most of them J-Pop and Enka singers: the women wear red, and the men wear white. :)

Several times during the whole show (many hours long), the audience votes  by dropping little balls down these long chutes that run towards the stage. It's like one big battle of the sexes! The men won by a landslide this year. 8) ... ;)

Peter (modab) wanted to show it at the con this year, but I'm not sure whether he did... I saw it a few months ago. Personally, I found the Enka to be quite boring, but it had some good J-Pop this year as well.
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Offline Rivenchan

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2004, 11:26:49 pm »
Quote from: "RoundTop"

2)  Except for handicap access elevators should not have been accessible to congoers on LL1 and LL2.  this bogged them down.


Personally, I'm quite relieved that this wasn't inforced this year.  On Sunday, I was dressed as Belle (Kingdom Hearts/ Beauty and the Beast, biig yellow ballgown) And as such, was severly inhibited in the physical activities I was capable of.  The costume consisted of a corset, and two and a half heavy petticoats.  

In this costume, climbing stairs was not very fun at all (I would have to either walk blindly and hope my foot conected with the stair where it was supposed to, or haul the front half the dress up to my knees so that my feet would have a free area with which to step.

For me, the escalators were out of the question as well since the width and mass of my dress whould have been impossible to fit in the tiny escalator corodors.

While I tried to keep to one floor only (I only made it to the gaming room once that entire day), it was very necessary for me to use the elevators every time I had to leave LL1..  So, while at first glace the plan to make elevators hadicap-accessible only seems like a good idea.. I'd like to put a plea for the gaurds who get the job of elevator-watch-dog to be considerate to large or imobile costumes like mine, because sometimes that day (such as after spending 5 hours straight standing up while judging for the cosplay contest ^^;; ) I was just worshiping the fact that I got to use the elevators and didn't have to try and blindly walk up and down stairs  ^^;;

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Offline princessfrodo

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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2004, 12:05:44 am »
Quote from: "Radien"
Quote from: "zenix"
what was that red vs white thing?

If you're talking about the Red and White Show, that's a special event that is broadcast every year in Japan on New Year's. It showcases many different famous Japanese performers, most of them J-Pop and Enka singers: the women wear red, and the men wear white. :)

Several times during the whole show (many hours long), the audience votes  by dropping little balls down these long chutes that run towards the stage. It's like one big battle of the sexes! The men won by a landslide this year. 8) ... ;)

Peter (modab) wanted to show it at the con this year, but I'm not sure whether he did... I saw it a few months ago. Personally, I found the Enka to be quite boring, but it had some good J-Pop this year as well.


I think he's talking about the Red vs Blue thing. ^.^;


And Rivenchan, I'm sure you would have been treated as 'handicapped' in that costume.  I know what it's like to wear a corset for hours on end, believe you me, the elevator would have been all yours. ^.^
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Offline zenix

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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2004, 12:18:54 am »
yes red vs blue

Offline Squall

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2004, 12:57:32 am »
Quote from: "RoundTop"
1) The sound levels at the dance were WAY too loud.  I would suggest a sound pressure meter so you don't make people deaf (no, I am not exaggerating).  I have been to rock concerts quieter than that dance.  No problems with the music..but the fact I could stand by the escalators and listen without trying

I strongly agree with this.  I stayed in that dance for only a few songs.  The volume was far too loud...so loud that the speakers could barely handle it and were crackling.  Upon leaving my hearing was diminished for a while...and that was only after about 4 songs.  That kind of volume is very bad for your ears/hearing.  Whoever was in charge of this should have known better.
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Offline Radien

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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2004, 01:22:31 am »
Quote from: "zenix"
yes red vs blue

Ah. I figured it was more likely that you heard about the Red and White show than make such a coincidental mistake. Oh well; now you know what Peter wants to show next year. :P

As far as I know, the staff red vs. blue thing was canned since we didn't have enough time and it wasn't absolutely vital. It was intended to be a staff morale/bonding thing, although that's a pretty fancy way of describing the type of game where you might shoot other people in the butt with plunger darts... ;)
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Offline Romes

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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2004, 07:46:51 am »
The bounty actually got found so many times that by Monday we ran out of prizes and had to improvise.  Each time it went out there was about an hour or so before it got turned in.
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Offline ndarkeral

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Couple of complaints
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2004, 01:43:48 am »
Quote from: "Radien"
so we're still familiarizing ourselves with the scary prospect of navigating Portland (at least I find it scary, having never driven far in a big city)


You SHOULD be scared. The road planners messed up the highways and streets in Portland and the surrounding so badly it's a miniature hell trying to find something you've never been too, even if you have directions.

And the drivers. They don't SIGNAL!

Offline zenix

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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2004, 02:27:17 am »
so red vs blue was just shooting people in the butt with darts...is taquila involed?

Offline pikminlink

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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2004, 09:15:44 pm »
i have to agree that the dance music was really way too loud, and the area seemed to be a bit small compared to the number of people that were there, it was getting really crowded, but other than that it was fun and i hope i can go next year.

Offline Radien

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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2004, 03:26:37 am »
Hey, I've got some official word from the last Eugene meeting regarding elevators:

Working with hotel staff, the convention staff actually tried to set the elevators to only access as low as the main lobby. However, they were unable to get it working. This was due, they surmised, to the fact that they didn't have an elevator technician on the premises, and probably not to any limitations the elevators might have.

[edit]
ooops, sorry steve, I hit edit rather than quote and ended up editing your post rather than making my own post lower on the board that quoted you.  If you remember what you wrote after this, feel free to edit. (Gomen!)
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Offline ndarkeral

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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2004, 03:38:43 am »
Quote from: "Radien"


Crap... so it's basically like a really big version of Eugene? :(



Actually, Eugene is like a big stuffed teddy bear compared to Portland. I was underexaggerating the hell that is Portland driving.  People will literally try to drive you off the road sometimes. That, and purposely cause accidents so it'll look like its your fault and they get lots of insurance money.

And cmon, in places there's only TWO LANES on many of the highways, and they haven't DONE anything about it in my lifetime.

Offline SailorNaboo

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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2004, 08:37:45 am »
Quote from: "Radien"
Hey, I've got some official word from the last Eugene meeting regarding elevators:

Working with hotel staff, the convention staff actually tried to set the elevators to only access as low as the main lobby. However, they were unable to get it working. This was due, they surmised, to the fact that they didn't have an elevator technician on the premises, and probably not to any limitations the elevators might have.


Just to clarify, there would still be one well marked elevator with access to the lower levels for people that are not able to access the escalators for whatever reason.  (Different abilities, large hoop skirts...)
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Offline Runa

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2004, 12:22:47 pm »
Quote from: "RoundTop"

2)  Except for handicap access elevators should not have been accessible to congoers on LL1 and LL2.  this bogged them down.


Er... as a presenter in several panels, I, too, was glad that elevators were available to all. I had a HUGE metal cart full of stuff which I lugged down for my demo panel, and Guy also used the same cart to lug the computers for the AMV contest. IF the elevators have been limited to only  handicapped, we woud NOT have been able to do our presentations. [now, if you limit them to handicapped AND people who really need them -- corseted women with huge skirts that will not fit on escalators, people lugging equipment from hotel rooms to places for presentations, etc. THAT would be fine.

Offline mira

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2004, 03:15:28 pm »
Quote from: "Squall"
Quote from: "RoundTop"
1) The sound levels at the dance were WAY too loud.  I would suggest a sound pressure meter so you don't make people deaf (no, I am not exaggerating).  I have been to rock concerts quieter than that dance.  No problems with the music..but the fact I could stand by the escalators and listen without trying

I strongly agree with this.  I stayed in that dance for only a few songs.  The volume was far too loud...so loud that the speakers could barely handle it and were crackling.  Upon leaving my hearing was diminished for a while...and that was only after about 4 songs.  That kind of volume is very bad for your ears/hearing.  Whoever was in charge of this should have known better.


Ok guys.  I'm an avid club goer and concert attendee.  The dance was fine.  I actually thought the sound was perfect and a little on the tame side.  I'm a MOM and I thought this.  Maybe I'm just jaded from years of loud clubs where the bass makes your heart beat funny? While I sympathize with your concerns I can't help but think  :roll:
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Offline ndarkeral

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2004, 03:32:20 pm »
Quote from: "mira"


Ok guys.  I'm an avid club goer and concert attendee.  The dance was fine.  I actually thought the sound was perfect and a little on the tame side.  I'm a MOM and I thought this.  Maybe I'm just jaded from years of loud clubs where the bass makes your heart beat funny? While I sympathize with your concerns I can't help but think  :roll:
mira


You must be partially deaf. :roll:
Yeah, well I perfer being able to hear when I'm 30.  :roll:
The music was loud. I've been in loud dances before and  the music never SHOOK the floor down the HALL before like it did in this. Thanks.  :roll:

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2004, 06:47:30 pm »
Quote from: "ndarkeral"
Quote from: "mira"


Ok guys.  I'm an avid club goer and concert attendee.  The dance was fine.  I actually thought the sound was perfect and a little on the tame side.  I'm a MOM and I thought this.  Maybe I'm just jaded from years of loud clubs where the bass makes your heart beat funny? While I sympathize with your concerns I can't help but think  :roll:
mira


You must be partially deaf. :roll:
Yeah, well I perfer being able to hear when I'm 30.  :roll:
The music was loud. I've been in loud dances before and  the music never SHOOK the floor down the HALL before like it did in this. Thanks.  :roll:


Well I am over 30 and I can hear just fine  :roll:   What shook the floor was the bass and it doesn't take much to do that.  I value my hearing as much as the next gal.  I just didn't think it was that loud.  Maybe next year you could bring ear plugs in case it's too loud again?  I've done this for concerts for years (thus the hearing in tact perhaps?).

I suppose the real test of whether it was too loud or not would have to be taken as a vote.  I mean the few of us posting here is hardly a good sampling.  As far as I know the Hotel didn't complain about it (it would be interesting to know one way or another about this).  I can only speak to my own experience.

I actually commented to my daughter about how NICE it was that the music wasn't too loud!  And she agreed with me.  I went to Bumbershoot in Seattle and saw some live music this same weekend and couldn't say the same.  How loud something sounds is relative really to what you are accustomed to.  It certainly wouldn't hurt to talk to the DJ about making sure people aren't being assaulted via the audio.  But all in all I thought the DJ was great and the dance was a lot of fun.

mira

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2004, 06:54:52 pm »
I have hearing problems and it was too loud.

Offline ndarkeral

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2004, 07:00:41 pm »
Quote from: "mira"

  What shook the floor was the bass and it doesn't take much to do that.  I just didn't think it was that loud.

I hardly think you're an adequate source of information on the subject.

Quote
 Maybe next year you could bring ear plugs in case it's too loud again?  I've done this for concerts for years (thus the hearing in tact perhaps?).


I shouldn't have to, to protect my hearing.

Quote

I suppose the real test of whether it was too loud or not would have to be taken as a vote.


No, I think the real test should be done by a professional sound technician. Who knows what they're talking about.


Let me put it this way, I couldn't hear MYSELF when I was talking. That is BAD.

Offline zenix

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« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2004, 07:21:45 pm »
if i feel like im going to be going deaf after being near the back of the room for 5-10 mins its to loud

Offline Kei-Kei

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« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2004, 12:21:54 pm »
Yeah, I have to agree it was way too loud.  I met up with a friend of mine near the doors and she had to almost yell so I could hear what she was saying.

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2004, 02:05:37 pm »
Quote from: "ndarkeral"

I hardly think you're an adequate source of information on the subject.


*sigh* and you are?  I was only suggesting that perhaps the floor shaking was due to something other than sheer volume.  If it helps at all my husband has been doing sound for years (as in 25+).  I do have some familiarity with the question of what is "too loud".  It doesn't really matter what I know though.  I am not trying to present myself as an expert.  I just have a different opinion about the sound at that night's dance.   What it comes down to in terms of liability is: are your cilia intact when you leave the show?  Yes?  Then for some that's not "too loud".  Note: you could have ringing in your ears and have trouble hearing for a short time and still not have sustained significant long term damage to your hearing.  This doesn't mean it's ideal (which is why i wear ear plugs at a lot of shows) but it's not the horrible danger some would try to make it.  And as I said before, what's "too loud" in terms of discomfort is highly subjective.


Quote from: "ndarkeral"

I shouldn't have to, to protect my hearing.


Ear plugs are pretty common in clubs and concerts for precisely that reason.  There's not a lot of regulation regarding how loud is "too loud".  Even "acceptable" levels can cause short term damage and perhaps some long term damage if it is repeated over time.  There are no guarantees.  If you are worried ear plugs are not a bad idea.  They are definitely more effective than complaining that it was too loud after the fact.  Perhaps the next step would have been asking him to turn it down?  If you are that worried about your hearing you should be proactive.

Quote from: "ndarkeral"
No, I think the real test should be done by a professional sound technician. Who knows what they're talking about.


Well we did have a professional sound technician there.  The DJ does this for his living I presume.  That makes him the professional.  Again, what is "too loud" is a disputed among sound techs.  ANY concert/dance is considered too loud by medical standards.  If you need to raise your voice to be heard it's "too loud".  Barring that there is not a hard standard for music presented to the public beyond a certain range.  Often the limits of the equipment are the rule of thumb.  The preferences of the DJ/sound tech is more likely to be the guide.  Especially at a small locally produced event like a con dance.

If you are that concerned about it I highly suggest ear plugs.  Or simply go ask the DJ if he can turn the volume down. But even then your hearing may still be damaged.  What it takes to damage your hearing is surprisingly low.  Here is a document that tells a bit about it: http://www.wsib.on.ca/wsib/wsibsite.nsf/LookupFiles/PreventionToolsHearingforLife_3224A/$File/3224A.pdf


Quote from: "ndarkeral"
Let me put it this way, I couldn't hear MYSELF when I was talking. That is BAD.


To you.  But to me is was just right.
Yes, you might have sustained some hearing damage but it takes ALOT to permenantly damage your hearing. Don't take my word for it by all means read up on it for yourself.  My point is that ANY concert/dance is going to do that. Otherwise you won't hear the music for the sound of people stomping around.  It is a given.  Beyond that "too loud" is a matter of opinion.  There were a lot of people dancing and having fun.  My guess is every one of them could hear just fine the next morning.  If they go to a dance every night for the next five years then the outcome might be different.

Offline acidraven

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« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2004, 05:54:07 pm »
I know that During the Dance there where complantes to the info desk that things where to loud. I know that the information was passed on (I don't rember the Time)
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Offline mira

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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2004, 08:15:33 pm »
Quote from: "acidraven"
I know that During the Dance there where complantes to the info desk that things where to loud. I know that the information was passed on (I don't rember the Time)


So why didn't they come shut things down or get the volume reduced?  Or did they?  Any staff have some knowledge of this?  I came a little ways into the dance and perhaps missed some conflict over the sound (?).

Ultimately, you are entitled to your OPINION about the sound. I'm sorry it bothered you.  I really do think if you are worried about your ears you should bring some ear plugs along.  There is no guarantee that it won't be "too loud" again.  

But others have their opinions too and a few people's complaints shouldn't wreck what was a good time for many.  The *apparent* consensus was that the sound was fine.  I base this on the FACT that the dance floor was full at all times.  If there were any complaint to be made about the dance it's that the dance floor was too small.  

It doesn't seem like there were a flood of complaints about the sound.  I was hanging around the info desk smoozing for a portion of the evening and didn't hear anything about it.  But I certainly am not privy to all that went on at the info booth (or think I want to be  :wink:  )  I am happy to be corrected if a staff member has info to add.  Maybe they turned things down later after I got there?  But in any case, I suggest we agree to disagree.  

I thought the sound was fine.  Excellent even.  I want it exactly the same next year (that's my vote). *shrug*

Offline Radien

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« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2004, 09:03:02 pm »
Now, I'm not a sound technician, but I had an Audio Production 2 class a few years ago with a well-known audio producer acting as professor.  He'd built up quite a reputation in California, but moved up here for a quieter life (as in smaller city, not quieter studio).

Anyway, here's what he had to say about loud noise and hearing loss: every time you leave a concert or a dance and your ears start ringing or buzzing, and it doesn't go away for awhile, you've caused damage to your ear drums. You'll recover most of it within a day.

However, prolonged or repeated exposure to just this type of damage DOES cause permanent effects. In fact, most Americans experience significant hearing loss over time. When middle-aged people can't hear as well as they used too, it's usually because we live in such a noisy society, not just their age itself.

So, nobody's going to go deaf overnight unless they're sticking their head practically inside the speaker, but we can still make sure it isn't up so loud that people's ears aren't actively buzzing and hurting afterwards. Procyon told me in the staff forum that he'd asked them to turn it down twice, and they did, but not enough. We'll address this for next year.
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Offline mira

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« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2004, 09:16:06 pm »
Quote from: "Radien"

 So, nobody's going to go deaf overnight unless they're sticking their head practically inside the speaker, but we can still make sure it isn't up so loud that people's ears aren't actively buzzing and hurting afterwards. Procyon told me in the staff forum that he'd asked them to turn it down twice, and they did, but not enough. We'll address this for next year.


First off, I linked to a pretty good article on hearing loss and I suggest that anyone concerned about hearing loss educate themselves.  There is a lot of hearsay about the subject.  And once you learn about it you'll see that many everyday noises are more concerning than the occassional concert or club visit.  Because it's the frequency of exposure that matters more often than the volume of any single exposure.

I can certainly handle things getting turned down if a lot of people were genuinely uncomfortable.  Were people actually complaining of buzzing?  And hurting seems implausible considering your cilia (the part that can be damaged and thus cause hearing loss not your ear drums at that level- no ears were bleeding over this event to be sure) aren't something you feel.  I honestly just didn't hear that there was any problem.  My 13 year old daugher with her fresh young ears thought the sound was perfect.  I wonder if you polled the majority of the attendees if they would agree that it was too loud?  A vocal minority can make it seem like a problem is in effect that actually isn't a problem at all.  I hope that is considered in the plans for next year as well.  There are always two sides to a story.  It seems I'm the only one advocating for volume on the boards.  I thought they did an excellent job at the dance.  :?

mira

Offline FizzTheCarbonated

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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2004, 09:45:01 pm »
My ears ACHED during the dance.  It wasn't my cilla, it was the rest of my ears.  My eardrums ached, and I assume that the little bony things in there hurt too.  I am no expert on ear damage, but you know what?  As far as I'm concerned, if my ears are in pain, which they were, it was too loud.

And I know that at least in my case (and probably some other people's) I would leave the dance every few songs or so, both to get some water and to give my ears a break.  This kind of dance-break-cycle would account for the floor being full all the time.

I didn't leave the dance enitrely because my ears hurt, because I wanted to freaking dance, dang it.  But I would have enjoyed the dance a lot more if the sound had been lower.  I don't like having my ears hurt.

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Offline Radien

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« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2004, 11:50:22 pm »
Sorry, Mira, I stand corrected; the cilia are in fact what get damaged. The ear drum would need a huge blast in order to break. I'm not sure it can be caused by sound. I'm sorry I missed your link.  I missed a page or so of this thread.

While I didn't get the physiology of it right, I highly trust this technician's expertise as far as keeping your hearing... specifically your upper range, which goes first. And I totally agree with Fizz: chances are if it's hurting people's ears, turning it down isn't going to cause the people whose ears are not hurting to leave the dance.

Now, keep in mind I'm trying to talk in general terms here, because I didn't set foot inside the dance; I ran karaoke next door all night. I can only tell you how loud it was on the other side of a thin wall, and half the people who came in did so because they'd left the dance, so I can't rely on their opinion as a reliable model of the whole. (But I can tell you there were enough to notice)
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Offline Squall

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Re: Couple of complaints
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2004, 12:58:47 am »
Quote from: "mira"
Quote from: "Squall"
Quote from: "RoundTop"
1) The sound levels at the dance were WAY too loud.  I would suggest a sound pressure meter so you don't make people deaf (no, I am not exaggerating).  I have been to rock concerts quieter than that dance.  No problems with the music..but the fact I could stand by the escalators and listen without trying

I strongly agree with this.  I stayed in that dance for only a few songs.  The volume was far too loud...so loud that the speakers could barely handle it and were crackling.  Upon leaving my hearing was diminished for a while...and that was only after about 4 songs.  That kind of volume is very bad for your ears/hearing.  Whoever was in charge of this should have known better.

Ok guys.  I'm an avid club goer and concert attendee.  The dance was fine.  I actually thought the sound was perfect and a little on the tame side.  I'm a MOM and I thought this.  Maybe I'm just jaded from years of loud clubs where the bass makes your heart beat funny? While I sympathize with your concerns I can't help but think  :roll:
mira

Ugh... I'm not even going to get into your little squabble.  However, I will stand by my statement.  You can defend all you want (and you seem to be the only one doing so), but it doesn't change the consenus here that the music was too loud.  You may be accustomed to that kind of volume (over your many years of concerts and such), but many of us aren't.  This is a convention dance, not a warehouse rave or a stadium concert.  We shouldn't have to bring earplugs to this kind of event.  The volume levels at the Sakuracon dance were far more favorable than that of this con.  Fin.
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Offline Fade

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« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2004, 09:22:46 am »
I love how some people disagree with you by saying 'that's just your opinion.'

No, really? :roll:

Offline SailorNaboo

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« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2004, 10:24:05 am »
I'm jumping in here a bit late, but I feel the need to.

I am stepping in officially as a board moderator at this time because while some of the responses to the dance music levels are well reasoned, considerate, statments of opinions or links to scientific facts, there are comments here that could be considered flames and or personal attacks.

As a staff member (and I plan on staying on in staff in whatever role the elected officers determine to be a best fit for my skills), I will be proposing the following solution:

1.  The equiptment to monitor the exact sound level is not hard to come by.  There is no reason why we can't have that on hand just to make sure that even if the sound seems a bit loud to some, it is safe and reasonable.  Readings should also be taken a few times depending on changes of the number of bodies at the dance.

2.  (and most important).  I am going to highly suggest that the Con purchase a large supply of individually wrapped disposable earplugs to be available at COST to congoes that request them and have it be readily known that they are available.  I haven't looked up prices yet, but I am sure that this will be in the 10 cent range.  It is going to be impossible to find a volume that is perfect for everyone, even if the music is set to too soft or just right for 90% of the people, there may be another 10% that is still saying, "Too Loud!" so this is a very reasonable work around.  

Besides, some people really might want to have access to earplugs for Open Mike Karaoke! And the gameroom can also get loud at times.

At this time I'm issuing general reminder to feel free to express your opinions, but not at the expense of others.  At this point, I will not be giving out any official warnings, but please be respectful of other's opinions.  Myself, or other moderators, will give out warnings if flames comtinue after this post.

****Personal Opinions begin here****

In my personal opinion (not as a mod, or even staff, just as a person who was a major market radio DJ for 15 years), I do find it surprising that Mira found the volume 'just right,' but I respect that.  I also know that only a very small percentage of the con goers ever post in the forum (there are tons off people registered who only have posted once or twice, if not at all).  The forum is a great place to get ideas about things and to read the opinions of the people who care enough to want to be involved, but it isn't a scientific sampling of the congoers.  

My personal guess...since I didn't attend the dance for any length of time...based on the crowds that were there and that it was packed a lot of the time and what I heard as I walked by, I would think it was a bit too loud, but since so many people stayed, it couldn't have been too an extreme or it wouldn't have been as crowded.  Depending on the number of people in the room, the sound level could fluxuate (ever been in a movie theater with only a few other customers and notice how the sound is different than with a full crowd?)

***Staff Hat back on***
I hope the availability of earplugs and a commitment to monitor sound levels is a compromise solution people can live with.  Even though I had to give a warning, as long as you do not flame, feel free to disagree with me or propose additional solutions.
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Offline mira

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« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2004, 10:58:17 am »
Quote from: "SailorNaboo"


****Personal Opinions begin here****

In my personal opinion (not as a mod, or even staff, just as a person who was a major market radio DJ for 15 years), I do find it surprising that Mira found the volume 'just right,' but I respect that.  I also know that only a very small percentage of the con goers ever post in the forum (there are tons off people registered who only have posted once or twice, if not at all).  The forum is a great place to get ideas about things and to read the opinions of the people who care enough to want to be involved, but it isn't a scientific sampling of the congoers.  

My personal guess...since I didn't attend the dance for any length of time...based on the crowds that were there and that it was packed a lot of the time and what I heard as I walked by, I would think it was a bit too loud, but since so many people stayed, it couldn't have been too an extreme or it wouldn't have been as crowded.  Depending on the number of people in the room, the sound level could fluxuate (ever been in a movie theater with only a few other customers and notice how the sound is different than with a full crowd?)

***Staff Hat back on***
I hope the availability of earplugs and a commitment to monitor sound levels is a compromise solution people can live with.  Even though I had to give a warning, as long as you do not flame, feel free to disagree with me or propose additional solutions.


I think this sounds like a good compromise and a very reasonable one at that.  As I said before I thought the volume was fine but I'm not for people feeling uncomfortable just because I am.  The issue of ear damage occurs the moment people have to raise their voices to be heard so ear plugs are really the only insurance against that if you are concerned.  Having some equipment to take an accurate reading rather than going by subjective estimations makes a lot of sense.  The DJ should have had stuff on his board though.  Not sure what happened there.  Perhaps he has the same level of habituation to it that I do?  I had just been to a concert the weekend before where the sound was making me physically sick WITH ear plugs in.

Thanks SailorNaboo for keeping things respectful and sane.  I apologize because looking back my little eye roll might have set people off.  Sorry, I was just being flip.  I found it ironic that *I* one of the parents at the event loved that it was loud!  I worked pretty hard to be respectful in the ensuing discussion and I appreciate others who did the same.  Turn it down if you must guys just be fair in assessing what "too loud" is.

Btw,  I in no way intended to dismiss anyone's perspective by saying it was just opinion. I hope no one felt that way.  I was very thoughtful in my replies (just check out the epic lengths) ;)  I was pointing out that we are all entitled to our opinions including the minority (which seems to be me).  

mira

Offline Magnus777

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« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2004, 01:43:25 pm »
There are all of the arguments above, but the sound was not contained sufficently.
Even though no one came down from the hotel staff - you could hear it, even though only a little, in the lobby.
I would consider that a bad thing.
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Offline Pie Row Maniac

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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2004, 01:53:50 am »
I'm just glad the eye-rolling emoticon stopped being so overused in this thread.

Is sarcasm and arrogance really that much needed when stating one's opinion?

Offline Radien

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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2004, 03:12:51 am »
Thank you for your optimism, but if we all could stop commenting entirely on eachother's arguing methods it would make it a lot easier to return to the topic at hand.

Normally it might not be such a big a deal, but this is a rather important forum to us staff, so we need all comments to remain directly relevant if possible. It makes it much easier to pick out the important points that you guys are indeed making and present them at meetings. You do want that, don't you? ;)
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Offline SailorNaboo

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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2004, 07:42:39 am »
Quote from: "Magnus777"
There are all of the arguments above, but the sound was not contained sufficently.
Even though no one came down from the hotel staff - you could hear it, even though only a little, in the lobby.
I would consider that a bad thing.


The hotel is used to loud events happening on the lower levels so some of the sound making it up there wasn't a problem.  

At a Con dance, we need to have as much air flow as possible (most people know why) so shutting the doors isn't something we can do.  We didn't test it out, but we don't know if the sound heard upstairs was from the volume in general or through the ventaliation ducts.

Thank you for bringing it up, but on that point, I think we were OK.  It's a great reminder though, for us to check with the hotel (especially if it ends up being a different one for next year) to make sure we are OK.
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Offline SailorNaboo

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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2004, 07:46:26 am »
Quote from: "PIE"
I'm just glad the eye-rolling emoticon stopped being so overused in this thread.

Is sarcasm and arrogance really that much needed when stating one's opinion?


It seems to be taken care of, Pie.  I believe my post/pre-warning got the message across.

I'm glad you are happy it has stopped, but let's just put it behind us and move along.
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Offline MistressLegato

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2004, 10:21:16 am »
I'm really late here  XI  Sorry!  I think it would be a good idea to get some cheap-o earplugs to the next dance-y loud thing I go to 'cuz I'm already about half-deaf due to damage my eardrums sustained from getting constant infections and rupturing a few years back.  I'd like to keep what little ear-health I have left!

And it does bother me when things are insanely loud.  I do agree that the sound should be at a comfortable and safe level.  It's nice to be able to talk to people as well as dance, you know?
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RoundTop

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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2004, 04:25:15 pm »
A sound pressure meter (very simple device) costs only about $20 at an electronics store.  You might be thinking of a frequency meter which is very expensive.

I'm not going to argue or flame as my opinions are opinions and I am keeping this constructive.. many people were not going into the dance due to the sound levels.  

As a general rule of thumb if you can't hear your own voice, it is too loud.  I have been to concerts, dances, and other "loud" events and the levels in that room were beyond that.  For a CON dance you should never require earplugs.  It is for the enjoyment of all, not the enjoyment of the partially deaf.

Also, just to mention it, the speakers in that room were the same models as we had at sakura-con.  They cannot handle that sound levels properly given the number of speakers vs sound levels.  You could hear them almost about to blow.  They should never have gotten close to that level.

Anyways,

carry on

James Magnan
attendee - Metallica concert, 2 Offspring concerts, Great big sea concert, sakura-con dances, musicals (professional and amateur), over 10 years in bands