Author Topic: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room  (Read 8139 times)

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Offline genman

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« on: September 04, 2006, 11:50:27 pm »
I recall a few year's back that Kumoricon had the "guts" to kick out dealers that were selling bootleg merchandise.  What about this year?  A number of dealers, including one kicked out before but appearing as a different company, were selling bootlegs.

Is there a no bootleg policy?  How is it enforced?

Offline Dustin

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 03:13:05 pm »
That was 2004, I believe. I was the one that those guys ripped off, so I got ahold of security. They refunded my money, but the guy who was working there caused a scene, so they had him leave.

I'm not sure if it was much af them kicking him out, but they asked him to leave because of the trouble he was causing.

Bootleggers are a huge problem at all cons. I think most of them should get a staffer just to stay around the dealers room and watch for these people.

Offline valliegirl

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 03:23:35 pm »
Quote from: "Dustin"


Bootleggers are a huge problem at all cons. I think most of them should get a staffer just to stay around the dealers room and watch for these people.


There are staff members, yojimbo specifically, in the dealer room, to keep order.

If anyone thinks a dealer isn't on the up and up, they should have gone to a yojimbo and brought it up.  If the Yojimbo wasn't certain of what to do, or how to handle the situation, they could have brought it up to directors.

Did anyone bring this up to a member of staff at all, or anything?
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Offline Radien

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 08:03:41 pm »
I went through the dealers room and at least tried to look over everything at least once, briefly. However, if you found bootlegged merchandise, then apparently it slipped by me. What exactly was bootlegged? Was it music, or DVDs, or other?

The thing about Hong Kong bootlegs in particular (the kind you're most likely to find at cons) is that 1. they are often actually legal in America, technically, and 2. many people will want them even if they know they are bootlegs, meaning even fewer people are willing to report them.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily right to allow it. But it's difficult to stop, because some very major dealers will sometimes show up with them in hand, and we usually don't know about it until somebody notices it by sight.

Since all of this is done ON THE SPOT, complaints that are held until after the con don't help very much. :/ *big shrug*

On a personal level, I HATE the feeling of realizing you unknowningly just bought $100 of bootlegged merchandise, and I think the most important part is that everyone should inform their friends of how to identify bootlegged merchandise so that no one will get caught with their guard down.

To put it briefly: if it sounds too good to be true, then it's probably not quite legit.
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Offline Antares

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 08:21:43 pm »
Could someone explaine bootlegs to me so that I can me a more informed con-goer? Is it just illegal reproductions?

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Offline BakaNoKami

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 08:40:09 pm »
Quote from: "Antares"
Could someone explaine bootlegs to me so that I can me a more informed con-goer? Is it just illegal reproductions?


A Bootleg DVD is an unofficial reproduction.

For instance, one of the people I went with ended up buying a bootleg copy of Battle Royale II from one of the booths (he wanted the DVD, so he ended up not reporting it). Anyhow... When he opened the case (which was not sealed) it had a DVD that was very obviously not an official DVD. It didn't have art corresponding to Battle Royale at all. Then when he took the jacket art out of the DVD case it was very thin and felt like printer paper and at one corner you could see where it wasn't properly aligned (a white line running from the bottom left corner to about the middle of where the back would be).

Basically, in this case it was easy to spot it as a bootleg because it just wasn't the same quality as a normal DVD would be.

As to the booth that was selling the bootleg, I'm honestly not sure what the booth's name was. It was the last booth on the left side of the right half of the room... Just to the right of the booth selling the Kumoricon t-shirts and across from the booth selling the Geneon DVDs and some manga.

Offline genman

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 11:19:42 pm »
Quote from: "Radien"
I went through the dealers room and at least tried to look over everything at least once, briefly. However, if you found bootlegged merchandise, then apparently it slipped by me. What exactly was bootlegged? Was it music, or DVDs, or other?


One of the dealer's I know told me there were bootlegs. What I found:  Fake plushies, unlicensed jewelry from anime, wall scrolls.  The jewlery was obviously unlicensed, there was no copyright information and the printing was off.

It's actually quite easy to find bootlegs.  To me, it takes a 10 second glance at the quality of printing or manufacturing.  If a dealer is selling character goods, pick up a representative sample, e.g. plushie or pencil board or whatever, and check to see if there's any copyright information on the tag or wrapping.  There should be the name of the manga/anime publishing company on it.  And typically, there are shiny seals affixed.

Why I didn't want to tell anybody:  I don't want to feel responsible for kicking out dealers.  Sort of would dampen the spirit of the weekend for me.

I actually have mixed feelings about ratting out bootlegs at conventions.  On one hand, they're clearing ripping off anime companies, which is already a cutthroat business as is.  On the other, anime dealers have a tough time and if they didn't know any better or get tossed out they hurt as well.  And unfortunately, it seems like most anime fans don't really care either way if they buy a bunch of crappily made toys or posters if they are affordable.  So to your attendees, kicking out bootleggers might not be good for them.

Offline Anza

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2006, 09:23:53 am »
Just about ALL the Final Fantasy Jewelry was bootlegged. And hot damn were there some UGLY Yuna necklaces. Also the green horrid pouch from FFX-2 was bootlegged. I know to spot these since well for one I was actually wearing Yuna's official necklace at the time. Another really good way to at least check the FF jewelry is to pick it up and look at it. Square ALWAYS puts a stamp saying (C) SQUARE and the content of silver in the piece.

As for DVDs and CDs.. check the print quality on the covers. More often than not you can see pixels on unofficial items. Also the Chinese label "Ever Anime" for CDs are FAKES. Be careful of bootlegs! Though it's nice to have the music or DVD the quality is never as good as the originals and your in no way supporting the creators.

As for figures. I remember buying a set of Sailor Moon figures I wanted so badly at SakuraCon 2004... after opening them up and looking at them it was too obvious I got jipped :( I have however begun to notice the easiest way to tell with such items is that the people try to wrap them in a large package so much that you can't make out the details. Ask the booth if you can open the package to at least inspect the pieces. Make an excuse of wanting to see if they're broken or not if you have to. If they strongly deny you then they're probably hiding something. The paint jobs are almost ALWAYS horrible and they don't come with the little Gachapon slip that shows all the other figures in the series.

Be weary... I know I hate buying bootlegged merch... it's sad to know you got jipped out of your money; even if it felt like a good deal at the time it's almost never worth it :(

Offline guspasho

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2006, 11:38:33 am »
I didn't run the exhibitors' hall so I can't say for certain but from the sound of all the posts in this thread, no one bothered to notify Kumoricon staff of any problems.

We don't wish to profit off of illegal bootlegging or to be seen as supporting illegal bootlegging but Kumoricon is an anime convention for fans, not the bootleg police. We have few enough resources to handle other issues without also identifying illegal bootlegs. If we were aware of anyone selling illegal reproductions, we would have investigated those cases.

I will leave it to our exhibitors' hall manager to explain our policy but it is probably this: we don't allow any illegal bootlegs and if we find any we ask those dealers to leave.

BakaNoKami, your description isn't too clear to me. The booth just to the right of the Kumoricon booth was Cosmic Monkey Comics, who has a physical store here in Portland that you can visit and as such, knows better than to sell anything illegitimate. The booth on the other side of us was Uwajimaya.
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Offline BakaNoKami

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2006, 05:23:08 pm »
Quote from: "guspasho"
BakaNoKami, your description isn't too clear to me. The booth just to the right of the Kumoricon booth was Cosmic Monkey Comics, who has a physical store here in Portland that you can visit and as such, knows better than to sell anything illegitimate. The booth on the other side of us was Uwajimaya.


Was Cosmic Monkey Comics the small-ish comic booth? The one I'm talking about was selling Transformers comics, some Marvel stuff, and some other DVDs (Teen Titans and Robot Chicken were among them). I'm also pretty sure they were selling JtHM comics and other stuff of that sort.

I'm pretty sure next to them was the booth selling the Kumoricon shirts and showing off some of the stuff that'd be at the Charity auction.


If what I said is confusing here's a picture describing (hopefully more clearly) where the booth was located.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/6005/dealerroomxo8.png

The booth I'm talking about is, of course, the booth with the big arrow pointing to it that's been filled in red.

Offline Radien

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2006, 06:33:12 am »
Wow, bootlegging has expanded over the years. I originally only kept an eye out for bootlegged CDs, DVDs, wall scrolls, and printed items. I knew some of the cloth merchandise, such as embroidered bags and jewelry and other convention-ish items, were created by locals, but some of that I always considered as one step away from fanart.

It sounds like the biggest complaints come from bootlegs that end up being shoddy reproductions. If that's the case, I must suggest that everybody keep an eye out for quality when they buy, regardless of whether you are looking for bootlegs. I have seen some pretty crappy (yet legitimate) figurines, for example.


While we're on the subject, here's how I generally find bootlegged CDs:

1. Large discounts for no obvious reason. Official albums can only be marked down by so much before they are being sold at a loss.
2. All albums are on the same price scale. This usually means royalties are not being paid... only production costs.
3. Once you find a brand name for one bootleg, you can use it to identify other bootlegs. "Ever Anime" is a common bootleg brand which fooled me.
4. As mentioned before, low-quality printed jackets are a clue-in.


Personally, I consider bootlegs worse than downloading the item illegally on the internet. On the internet, you are viewing/hearing the product without paying for it.

When you buy a bootleg, however, none of your money ends up going to the creators of the product, AND you end up slipping money to a company that survives by stealing other's works, AND you have less money to spend on legitimate merchandise.


Quote from: "genman"
Why I didn't want to tell anybody:  I don't want to feel responsible for kicking out dealers.  Sort of would dampen the spirit of the weekend for me.

Well hey, you wouldn't be the one to kick the dealers out. Just informing staff doesn't even guarantee they will be kicked out, either. All it does is give our staff the proper information before making a decision. We're not nazis... we try to be as reasonable as possible.

However, the dealers have all agreed to certain terms when they signed up for their booths, and when they break those rules, they hurt the atmosphere of the con. And if they get away with it, then they will do it next year, and we will see more and more of the same.

This is what staff have to deal with. Unexpected bad stuff happens that gets addressed on the spot. It's not pretty, but the reward is that the con continues to exist and be fun. I don't necessarily ask that you dirty your hands for us -- we just want good communication between staff and attendees.

Quote from: "genman"
I actually have mixed feelings about ratting out bootlegs at conventions.  On one hand, they're clearing ripping off anime companies, which is already a cutthroat business as is.  On the other, anime dealers have a tough time and if they didn't know any better or get tossed out they hurt as well.  And unfortunately, it seems like most anime fans don't really care either way if they buy a bunch of crappily made toys or posters if they are affordable.  So to your attendees, kicking out bootleggers might not be good for them.

From what I know, few anime dealers sell bootlegs accidentally, or if they do, then they don't do it on as large a scale as I've seen at cons.

The industry isn't hurting so much that we have to rely on illegal merchandise. Besides, vendors that rely heavily on bootlegging are ensuring their own survival at the cost of the industry's. Remember, the job of retail is to get the product to us; the product can only continue to be made if the creators get paid.
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Offline HaSanGo

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2006, 10:39:17 am »
Quote from: "BakaNoKami"
Was Cosmic Monkey Comics the small-ish comic booth? The one I'm talking about was selling Transformers comics, some Marvel stuff, and some other DVDs (Teen Titans and Robot Chicken were among them). I'm also pretty sure they were selling JtHM comics and other stuff of that sort.
Yes that was the Cosmic Monkey Comics booth. I'm pretty positive there were no bootlegs there, at least everything I looked at was official merchandise. Although I didn't look too much at the DVDs as they are older titles.

That being said though something to remember is that most Cons sell old, outdated items. Things that have been re-released or repicked back up, but they are selling everything from stock, overstock, to returns, displays, etc. You might not of received a bootleg but a pre-production release (some stores receive) or earlier edition, then their distribution company has changed. Filmsy cover and different artwork aren't often a tell-tale sign of a bootleg, espcially on older releases.

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Offline EvilMonkey

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2006, 04:00:48 pm »
Bootleg plushies, necklaces, and other merchandise besides CDs and DVDs is harder to spot, and if you don't know what you're looking for, it can be easy to be duped by them.

If you are keen enough to spot fake merchendise, then please let our exhibits staff know.  In fact, we might give you a job!  Help keep our dealers honest!  We do have a clause in our contract that forbids merch prohibited for sale in this country, this encompasses bootleg merchandise.

I ejected a dealer in 2004 because the majority of the merch that they brought was bootleg, CDs, pins, laminated posters, etc.
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Offline RoamingGnome

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2006, 04:39:32 pm »
Quote from: "EvilMonkey"
Bootleg plushies, necklaces, and other merchandise besides CDs and DVDs is harder to spot, and if you don't know what you're looking for, it can be easy to be duped by them.

If you are keen enough to spot fake merchendise, then please let our exhibits staff know.  In fact, we might give you a job!  Help keep our dealers honest!  We do have a clause in our contract that forbids merch prohibited for sale in this country, this encompasses bootleg merchandise.

I ejected a dealer in 2004 because the majority of the merch that they brought was bootleg, CDs, pins, laminated posters, etc.


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Offline superjaz

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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2006, 06:52:39 pm »
thing is it really is hard to tell, like the hair pins i bought, they were himes and came in a little box that had her pic, the pins were well made but the box pic was printied so i dont know
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Offline Radien

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2006, 06:44:00 am »
Quote from: "EvilMonkey"
If you are keen enough to spot fake merchendise, then please let our exhibits staff know.  In fact, we might give you a job!  Help keep our dealers honest!  We do have a clause in our contract that forbids merch prohibited for sale in this country, this encompasses bootleg merchandise.

I'm planning to continue as staff again... I could read up and see if I can become good enough at recognizing bootlegs to scan the dealer room next year. :)

If someone more experienced were to volunteer, though, then all's the better.
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Offline Anza

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Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2006, 09:36:12 am »
I wouldn't mind helping out. I like hitting up the dealers room at least 2 or so times no matter what con I go to. If staff takes it seriously when I say "hey it looks like [such-n-such] booth has bootleggs for sale. It might be good for you to check it out."

I just don't want irritated staffers scoffing at me like I have no idea what I'm talking about ~_~;;

Offline Blayde

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2007, 02:45:11 pm »
 I think my weirdest experiance came from buying used anime tapes and DVD's, the guy wasn't paying attention to the rating or content of the films and I bought a movie containing a lot of nudity without even realizing it... at the time I was 16 ^^; I don't think I ever finished watching the movie.
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Offline kylite

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2007, 12:43:26 am »
I wouldn't mind helping out. I like hitting up the dealers room at least 2 or so times no matter what con I go to. If staff takes it seriously when I say "hey it looks like [such-n-such] booth has bootleggs for sale. It might be good for you to check it out."

I just don't want irritated staffers scoffing at me like I have no idea what I'm talking about ~_~;;

NEVER worry about "bothering" a staff member, we yojimbo LOVE to hear from our con goers with both good and bad info.
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Offline JeffT

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2007, 08:06:28 pm »
I think my weirdest experiance came from buying used anime tapes and DVD's, the guy wasn't paying attention to the rating or content of the films and I bought a movie containing a lot of nudity without even realizing it... at the time I was 16 ^^; I don't think I ever finished watching the movie.
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Offline LtCommanderRichie

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2007, 08:35:26 pm »
You know, the thing is that a lot of people already know that most of the stuff they'll get is bootlegged. I myself, right now, am wearing two pieces of jewelry I know to be home-made and I have a third on my wallet chain, and I don't care because they will NOT fall apart like a lot of actually licensed stuff. The licensed stuff will break or bend under stress, but what I have around my neck is 100% some kind of metal that will NOT do that. I should know, I chew on it habitually.

There are oblivious buyers that don't know they're getting gypped, there are people that don't buy bootlegs and choose, instead, to report them; then there are people that look through the bootlegs and find the good ones.

Offline xxxchihiroxxx

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 01:58:14 pm »
me and the other girls doing the artist alley booth with me would love to help. one of us is always going to be in the dealer artist alley area every day to help man the booth. im sure in our free time we can look around for you and keep an eye out for bootlegs and such.
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Offline GaaraoftheFunk

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2007, 05:31:32 am »
You know, the thing is that a lot of people already know that most of the stuff they'll get is bootlegged. I myself, right now, am wearing two pieces of jewelry I know to be home-made and I have a third on my wallet chain, and I don't care because they will NOT fall apart like a lot of actually licensed stuff. The licensed stuff will break or bend under stress, but what I have around my neck is 100% some kind of metal that will NOT do that. I should know, I chew on it habitually.

There are oblivious buyers that don't know they're getting gypped, there are people that don't buy bootlegs and choose, instead, to report them; then there are people that look through the bootlegs and find the good ones.

I was wondering if my Vivienne westwood necklace from the manga NANA was a bootleg too.The top of it was bendy and keeps falling off.As if it were cheaply made,But after checking over the NANA box it came in,It doesn't seem to be bootlegged.

I'm still always confused as to trying to define with my own eyes what is fake and what is real.

Offline Nroseseeer

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Re: Bootleggers in the Dealer's Room
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2008, 01:36:39 pm »
I was wondering if my Vivienne westwood necklace from the manga NANA was a bootleg too.The top of it was bendy and keeps falling off.As if it were cheaply made,But after checking over the NANA box it came in,It doesn't seem to be bootlegged.

I'm still always confused as to trying to define with my own eyes what is fake and what is real.

Jewelery is a lot tougher to tell if it's bootlegged or not mainly because of the fact that in order to bootleg the jewelery has to be copyrighted. Most designers and manufactures' have copyright on all the jewelery they make, however a particular series may not.

Example: The earrings that San wears in Princess  Mononoke I believe are not copyrighted, I see them in stores by different manufactures'.

Other series may copyright jewelery, but the product made is low quality. Like Naruto headbands. you can by an official ones for $5 at Toy's R Us, and it will probably break or isn't the right size, or you can buy a $20 that won't break easy. However there are people who make Naruto style head bands that are even better for $20, and as long as it doesn't have the proper symbol on it it is fine.

The best advice is to check the quality as some companies make a high grade and a low grade of a particular item, watch for items made of pewter (a rather soft metal) they bend and break rather easily and are sometimes used by official licenser's. Also look for exceptionally heavy or light materials like ceramics and aluminum. Felt fabric is also used in low quality items, it is fuzzy, not very durable, and polyester which if held up to your eyes you can see through it, typically both can go for $2 a yard. Most fabric stores carry it and you can ask them will be happy to help.

The most important is to look closely and trust your gut, don't be so caught up that you FOUND the item, look at if the item is worth the money.
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