Author Topic: Why the fuss over candids this year?  (Read 2266 times)

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Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Why the fuss over candids this year?
« on: February 04, 2015, 09:20:22 pm »
Candids have always been an acceptable form of convention photography, and in other venues as well (yearbooks usually devote pages specifically to them).

Yet this year, people have called all pictures taken without their express permission "creeper shots" (trust me, there's a HUGE difference) and staffers have said that all pictures have to be approved--even though the rules say nothing of the sort.

The con photography rules say, and I think this makes sense, that we just need to use our best judgements when we snap, and not to get people in compromising or embarrassing situations. Those are sufficient. Yet it seems that this year, everyone decided that wasn't enough.

There's a huge difference between getting a picture of someone standing in line or sitting on a bench or walking around and getting a picture of someone in an inappropriate shot! Candids don't equate with creeping, and it's more than a little insulting to people who've gotten actually stalked to act as though they're the same.

What changed? Why are even staff not following what the rules actually say to try to enforce a ban on something that's always been unquestionably accepted?

Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2015, 10:22:29 pm »
Few things here..
1. Candid shots are not bad per se. However do you know the law? The law states no persons are allowed to photograph or video and/or voice record any other person without the consent of the person being recorded/photographed. The reason the media can do it is becasue even though it's a law, it's not one most people care about. However, it IS breaking a privacy law, therefor if a person does not want to be recorded/photographed without their consent, it's the LAW. Don't like it? Don't live here. The person has a legal human right to be angry about it. It's violating privacy. Also, it's not freaking hard to say "can I get a pic". Or even just if looking where the cosplayer can see you, and holding up the camera as to say "Hey I'd like a pic" without even saying anything. Most humans understand that signal as "Pose for the camera I'm pointing at".

2. "and not to get people in compromising or embarrassing situations"
Who are, or the con staff, to say what is and is not embarrassing? Maybe a cosplayer standing talking with friends and not posing is embarrassing? YOU (the photographer) don't get to make that decision. This means ANY candid photo could just as easily be embarrassing as any other.

3. I haven't once seen the argument on here of it being "creeper". Like seriously..No one is calling candid shot photographers creeps. We are saying they are violating our privacy by taking photos without our consent, which is breaking the law, and need to freaking stop.

It doesn't matter what the con rules are.. A law trumps an event policy. Also, they shouldn't have to tell you the freaking law..You should be smart enough to know what privacy is and if you are or are not violating it. It's common sense. Shocker: There are actual humans that do not like people recording/photographing them without consent..Wow..How horrible of them. They should be ashamed for wanting to give consent to someone..Bad people..BAD!!

Offline RedEagleEX

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 12:16:59 am »
I think there is some confusion in this thread on how Photography works at Kumoricon at least. But here is some knowledge I can shed some light on.


Both Hotels (Red Lion and Hilton) are private property. While attendees are within these grounds including the Parking Lots of that respected hotel, Con Staff can intervene and request the offender to delete photographs of the subject as well as stop harassing the subject when its brought into our attention.


Always locate staff if anyone is making you feel uncomfortable.


With that said...outside of the hotel property: sidewalks, the road, and yes even the park. Are PUBLIC Property.


Anyone that takes your picture with or without your consent at this places is protected by the First Amendment. That means it is LEGAL. (Thats why paparazzi's are 100% legal and even when people say no to them AND make money off your photos, there is isn't much you can do due to the First Amendment.)


Unfortunately because of that, Con Staff has no enforcement in public spaces. In situations like this, I recommend you come back to the hotel grounds.


I hope that clears some things and what rights and limitations staff has on these kinds of situations.

Offline Tsukinya

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 07:51:35 pm »
I would like to also point out that attendees consent to photography when they purchase their badge.  As stated in every con book:

Quote
Consent to official photography: Any photographs or videos of attendees taken by Kumoricon staff in an official capacity may be used or published by Kumoricon without further consent of the attendees being recorded.

As a photographer myself, I always strive to respect those I am recording, asking when possible.  However, candids are by far my best shots; I simply couldn't capture the same pure enjoyment of the convention if I asked for every photo.  I try to show the pictures afterwards.  I have not yet once been asked to delete a picture, but I would be happy to do so if it made anyone uncomfortable.

Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 05:58:16 pm »
If you guys don't care about other peoples privacy that only shows who you are. If you have the right to take the picture, the unwilling subject also has the legal right to be mad at you for doing to. What I mean by the camera thing is if you make a fuss with me about it. If I catch you doing it and you are not caring about my privacy, refusing to delete anything, or just continuing to be an ass about it, then you don't deserve to even have that camera. If you can't be respectful of the people around you, you don't deserve nice things. Just becasue it's LEGAL to photograph someone, doesn't mean it's right. I'll be agressive if all I want. Why should I be happy and dandy about you guys basically saying "we don't give to sh*ts about your privacy, get over it". You wanna be that way to someone, then yes, they are gonna be aggressive toward you..If you specifically do something you KNOW people are already saying they do not like, then you have no right to be upset by backlash..You KNOW people don't like it, but you do it anyway becasue you don;t care what others have to say.

Offline veraca

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 09:42:14 pm »
There's a huge argument about photographers and privacy regarding celebs. That's part of the reason why celebs envy the privacy laws regarding photographs that's in foreign countries. The U.S. however, has different laws that allows freedom. A photograph, by nature, is not harming anyone. The repercussions of publicizing said photograph may cause harm, and that's where the arguments comes from.

Regarding pro or con for candid shots at Kumori, I think it's fine. I understand why people get angry over it, but that's part of the culture developing now where pretty much every single person is a photographer with their smart-phones these days.
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Offline RedEagleEX

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 10:25:40 pm »
@Sailor-Jeimi: Let me repeat myself. If ANYONE makes you uncomfortable from taking your pictures without your consent within Hotel grounds, please find the nearest con staff to resolve this. If you do not trust any of the staff near you then please do not hesitate to find me or ask for me in the Video Game Department. I will stop whatever I am doing and make your concerns 100% of my attention and priority.


Even if the person is a Kumoricon staff taking your picture without your consent, I will personally go and talk to them to no longer take your pictures if you don't want them to. It will not be a bother to me at all if I can help you or anyone else feel safe and enjoy their time during Kumoricon.


For me, while staffing it will always be attendees saftey and enjoyment first, all others second.




Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 03:15:05 pm »
@Sailor-Jeimi: Let me repeat myself. If ANYONE makes you uncomfortable from taking your pictures without your consent within Hotel grounds, please find the nearest con staff to resolve this. If you do not trust any of the staff near you then please do not hesitate to find me or ask for me in the Video Game Department. I will stop whatever I am doing and make your concerns 100% of my attention and priority.


Even if the person is a Kumoricon staff taking your picture without your consent, I will personally go and talk to them to no longer take your pictures if you don't want them to. It will not be a bother to me at all if I can help you or anyone else feel safe and enjoy their time during Kumoricon.


For me, while staffing it will always be attendees saftey and enjoyment first, all others second.

You're being helpful. Im happy about that. Trust me. But its the other people on here. They all derm to thing just because they feel like doing something means "too bad I'll do what I want I don't care if its invading your privacy, these pix look neat so your privacy means nothing to me" that are pissing me off.

Offline EveofAbyss

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 09:44:58 pm »
Dude, no one is saying that. Are you just intentionally ignoring what has been posted in an attempt to prolong your ever-shifting tirade? Why can't you tell the difference between presenting the reality of policies and ignoring individuals' wishes? This thread has been a discussion about candids. You raised complaints about candids, and when photographers and staff responded to your complaints, you swapped your reasons just so you can keep attacking whoever "they" are (because, based on your accusations, "they" sure aren't in this thread). First candids were against the law, but the law and policies said otherwise. Then candids were merely invasive and inconsiderate, but several photographers have established their immediate flexibility and consensual intent in regard to an unhappy subject. So...what's the deal?

I understand being passionate about an issue, but you're giving off an overwhelming air of willing dissatisfaction. You just seem to want to be angry about this and will find a way to keep attacking people regardless of how your complaints are met.


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Offline superjaz

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 10:20:59 pm »
@ditto to Eve said!

@Blackjack, I haven't personally heard about people complaining about creeper shots (though I only went a day last year, I have heard of specific instances in past years), are the people taking the unwanted photos possibly not associated with the con?   There is that oxfest and hands across the bridge attendees (and people just going to the farmers market).   And I have seen those crowds react to the con family in a less then flattering way, and I can  (and have) seen those crowds take pictures of attendees in ways that would creep me out if it was me.   As said the park is public (ie legally nothing can be done but also as said go to the hotel if feeling unsafe) space and meant to shared.

I say kill them with kindness.   If some one is recording/taking pictures of you and you dont like it, ask politely for them to stop.  If you feel scared to ask another attendee to go with you.  Or  if you want to take multiple pictures of people having fun,  (vs just one random shot" say " hey I'm getting some con pictures of people having fun mind if take a few pic? "
In 10+years of going to anime cons no one has ever said  no to a polite picture request.  I know that may ruin the candid shot though.
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Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2015, 04:30:09 pm »
3. I haven't once seen the argument on here of it being "creeper". Like seriously..No one is calling candid shot photographers creeps. We are saying they are violating our privacy by taking photos without our consent, which is breaking the law, and need to freaking stop.

I've been DIRECTLY accused of taking "creeper shots", with those words, for taking pictures of convention people in costume. So don't tell me no one is saying that.

You're out in public. It isn't as though we're sneaking into hotel rooms or following you into the bathroom.

And superjaz, it's about people in costume, so clearly they're part of the con. Though I've seen people at markets take random shots too--not this market (though I'm sure it happens) but in general.

Offline Valkyrie542

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 06:09:10 am »
I guess some people are uncomfortable with how they look, or maybe they don't like getting their pictures taken (I've known a couple of people who just hate cameras; and I think one person in school even purposely missed out on yearbook photos).

Or, maybe some people are worried that people are taking 'creeper shots' of them; they don't know if the photographer is, they don't know them - so the possibility is always there, even if it may not be true. I've heard stories where some female cosplayers noticed photographers taking up-skirt pictures or close-ups of others' hindquarters or chests. Or, the photographer will take perfectly normal photos but never give the cosplayer their photos, so they assume it's for private reasons, and it makes them uncomfortable.

However, the one thing that I've been hearing consistently from cosplayers is that they'll be sitting down, eating, resting, or they have bits of their costume off or their wigs are messy, and a picture will be taken and they're very annoyed...

Bottom line here, though: Some photographers want to take photos of people without them being aware - until after the fact; and there are cosplayers who want to be asked for permission first because they can never tell if the photos being taken are inappropriate. It's a dilemma.

I personally always ask people if I can take their picture before I do so, I don't want to step on anyone's toes if they're against it.
If I don't have consent, I'll gladly leave them be.


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Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 12:17:18 pm »
Valkyrie,
You made the most sense I've seen so far..This is what I'm trying to say, but everyone wanting to be entitled was just pissing me off so much in here.
There's one think all candid photographers need to know:
"Just because you think it makes a neat shot, does not mean the cosplayer is ok with it. You don't get to decide if the cosplayer is ok with it or not, they do."


It doesn't matter if it's legal or not to do it. It's a matter of human decency. If another human asks you not  take those kind of pics of them, than you stop. The only people on here that seem to say candids are not a problem, are the ones taking them. That doesn't strike any of you as odd? the cosplayers are the ones asking you to stop right? so that's a pretty big hint that the COSPLAYERS do not like it. Just becasue you want to is not a reason to do something that involves another person, in this case, just becasue you like the shot, that doesn't make it ok to secretly photograph someone.


I don't care if you don't like me for this. That just shows me who you are..Someone who can't take no for an answer. And that's someone who shouldn't be around others in the first place. If multiple people ask you to not do something, the thing to do is stop, not complain.

Offline Azuraschampion

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 12:59:46 pm »
Just going on record here that personally,  i don't mind if anyone takes any candid pictures of me. IMO, candid shots quite often turn out a lot better than normal hall photos. Of course, i would prefer that after anyone takes pictures, they show them to me afterwards.
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Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2015, 11:30:52 am »
 (The following is a critique of the highlit phrases specifically, and not of the author personally.)
Quote
If I catch you doing it and you are not caring about my privacy, refusing to delete anything, or just continuing to be an ass about it, then you don't deserve to even have that camera. If you can't be respectful of the people around you, you don't deserve nice things.
Hold it, there - this is not how private property works. Once you freely tender something which you own outright (such as money earned after having paid taxes, or items or services you offer in barter) with someone else who agrees to exchange one or more 'nice things' in trade for < z, > you now own those 'nice things' outright. Period.

Now, since in order to first acquire that <z> which you use in the exchange to get the 'nice things,'  you had to (legally) do something or give away something earlier to someone else who agreed it was worthy enough that they gave me <z.> That previous act was when someone else already agreed with you that you *deserved* <z,> and every other party's opinion of what you deserve or not is irrelevant from that point onward. The irrelevancy of third party opinions about what you *deserve* carries forward when you later exchange <z> for 'nice things.'

(This is separate from a discussion about how using a camera in a pleasant manner differs from using it in a snide but legal manner, or using it in an illegal manner. Whole different kettle of fish, BUT in general legal title of a thing does not automatically transfer from a rude or snide possessor of the thing to an aggrieved party merely on the basis of claims of irritation or offense. Y'know, due process and all that...)
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:01:18 am by Prinz Eugen »

Offline LovelyAngel

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2015, 06:13:17 pm »
(I am away from this forum for months at a time, so I did not see this thread until today – hence the very untimely response.)

I feel that as one of the parties seen to be a problem that I am obligated to post a response. And I realize that whatever I say is only adding fuel to the fire and not helping to smooth things out. It’s not my intent to be adversarial; however, I’m not sure I can avoid being seen that way. There seem to be perspectives here that aren’t going to be reconciled. But… since I plan to photograph at K-con again in 2015, I need to be a part of this discussion.

First, I come from a photography community… and since 9/11 there’s been an increase in harassment of photographers by law enforcement officials, so we’ve had to sharpen our understanding of what is legal, permitted, and wise. For legalities, I refer everyone to:
As has been noted by others in this thread, photography is permitted of anything in a public place. There can be no expectation of privacy in a public park, so one’s privacy can’t be invaded in a public park. On the other hand, the Hilton is private property, and convention and hotel rules apply there. (Oddly, in this day of everpresent cellphones and constant video surveillance, people are caught on camera so often they ought to be fairly indifferent by now. Here in the U.S. we’re not yet as bad as London, where a typical person is caught on camera on average 300 times a day.)

As has been noted also, what is legal may be different than what is “right,” courteous, and/or expected. I think I need to steer clear of discussing what is “right,” since we all do not seem to have a common moral/ethical/cultural/social rule that defines the line between “right” and “wrong.”

My photography is photojournalism style, so I do not ask permission before taking each picture; if I did, the photo would not be candid. Some people take my action as being discourteous or rude. I have to accept that people think that I’m rude. Street photographers learn to wear a tough shell. (I wish I were a better street photographer, but I’m too cowardly.) Some people think it’s rude if others use swear words. Some people think it’s offensive for people to wear devil’s horns or to show bare midriffs or to nurse a baby in public. Shoot, my very existence offends some people. (I’ve had a relative refuse to be in the same room as me.) So whether I’m taking a picture, speaking my mind, or just standing there, I’m going to deeply bother some people. In all three of those actions I believe that I am not causing any harm to the people around me, and I am not likely to stop what I’m doing.

I do believe that I’m courteous in the following ways:
  • If after I take a picture the subject requests that I stop taking their picture – that they do not want to be photographed – I will stop taking their picture and I will delete their photos from my camera
  • When I review my photos in post-processing, I remove any unflattering images. I post only a selected subset of photos to my online gallery. I believe only “good” pictures get posted. IMHO.
  • If I receive a request to take down photos from my Kumoricon online gallery, I will remove the pictures
I imagine this tome sounds like just one big justification and La la la la la… I can’t hear you sort of response. I’m not trying to convince people to change their position; I’m just trying to show that the other side seems just as “right” as the other. Honestly, if I thought what I was doing was a net negative for the convention, I wouldn’t do the photography. I’ve had a number of people say they want to come to the convention for the first time based solely on my photos and my verbal description.

OK. Target is now painted on my face. Fire at will.

(Edits to correct typos/grammar)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:41:20 pm by LovelyAngel »

Offline KingOfAutumn

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2015, 11:41:16 am »
I do believe that I’m courteous in the following ways:
  • If after I take a picture the subject requests that I stop taking their picture – that they do not want to be photographed – I will stop taking their picture and I will delete their photos from my camera
  • When I review my photos in post-processing, I remove any unflattering images. I post only a selected subset of photos to my online gallery. I believe only “good” pictures get posted. IMHO.
  • If I receive a request to take down photos from my Kumoricon online gallery, I will remove the pictures
Okay so this is slightly off topic--
I found my picture on your gallery from KumoriCon 2013! (picture 36)
And to be on topic, I don't think everybody is offended by candid shots.
Using this talented photographer as an example, I had no idea my picture was in her gallery, and in no way am I offended or "creeped out". I'm actually quite pleased to see my face on there!
So, if you're trying to speak for all cosplayers, you're wrong. Actually getting my photos taken candidly (as happened a lot this past year, during my Guro!Lolita) makes me feel like a celebrity. I got my photos taken from people who weren't even part of the con, and it made me feel like I did really well on my makeup and cosplay.
So I disagree about candid photos. I enjoy when people take my photos \(* u *)/
But if they were to be up-skirt pictures or close-ups on my ass or something, I wouldn't be as happy, but this is a decent picture!
(Thank you for taking my picture, can I put this picture on my IG?)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 11:42:21 am by KingOfAutumn »
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Offline LovelyAngel

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2015, 12:13:20 pm »
(Thank you for taking my picture, can I put this picture on my IG?)

Sure! You're welcome to grab a copy of the photo; I'm glad you like it! There are a couple of image download options built into the site – one is in the popup menu for an individual image; another option is in the Select Photos button in the gallery header.

Offline Tsukinya

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2015, 05:31:27 pm »
@LovelyAngel,


You've got a good eye for convention photography..  Have you considered volunteering as an event photographer for the con?  Plenty of candid opportunities and a free badge (though it does come with a notable commitment).  Feel free to contact multimedia@kumoricon if you're interested.

Offline LovelyAngel

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2015, 08:26:24 pm »
You've got a good eye for convention photography..  Have you considered volunteering as an event photographer for the con?  Plenty of candid opportunities and a free badge (though it does come with a notable commitment).  Feel free to contact multimedia@kumoricon if you're interested.

Thank you! I'll at least open a conversation. (And I don't actually need a free badge – I'm preregistered, and I'm happy to pay for my membership.)

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2015, 03:31:27 pm »
My concern is that it isn't even people getting rightfully upset over legitimate creeper shots like upskirts or whatever. This is people calling creeper on shots that they simply weren't aware of.

I post every picture I take, aside from ones that don't turn out. Nothing is hidden from anybody, and if someone wants me to remove something, I will. But when people yell at me for taking pictures in the manner I've taken at every convention I've ever been to and never had this issue arise before, then something is strange.

As I said in the beginning, candids are a part of photography, be it from National Geographic to high school yearbooks. And when people confuse them with harassment and accuse others of being creepers when the content is entirely different, then I think the con does need to say something.

Offline Yu

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2015, 12:42:31 am »
Hey, I wanted to bring attention to a picture on the K-con website. I didn't want to bring TOO much attention to it so I didn't make an entirely new thread.


Anyway, in the slideshow there's a picture from the Cosplay Chess game oh a Chun Li lying with her face away from the camera. All you can see of her are her legs and underwear..not like, on her hip...it's a total crotch -shot


I don't know if that was the intent of the photographer ( but I wonder who thought it was an appropriate  choice to plaster it on the front page)  or just the angle he was at but since we're talking about " candid shots" I'm fairly sure she did not consent to it being taken or posted on the front page of the website.


If there was consent than, that's cool, ignore this, but I know that if it were me I would feel really embarrassed and even a little violated and I would want it removed.




Offline JeffT

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Re: Why the fuss over candids this year?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2015, 11:34:32 am »
Quote
Hey, I wanted to bring attention to a picture on the K-con website. I didn't want to bring TOO much attention to it so I didn't make an entirely new thread.

Please email website@kumoricon.org with the details. That is the best way to bring the right amount of attention, and in the way that will get it fixed the quickest.

We have a couple of thousand photos each from the last two years, and unfortunately with that many an inappropriate one can slip through, so we can definitely remove any that shouldn't be there.
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