Author Topic: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?  (Read 3787 times)

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Offline dark4ever

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Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« on: September 12, 2014, 09:30:22 pm »
I've had conversations with my friends at con, and there are times when we, as LGBTQ+ people, feel completely uncomfortable. So, when I decided I wanted to run a panel, I figured, hey, why not?


Working title: Navigating Media while LGBTQ+
Would include some education (slide shows, because why not) as well as a q and a (since my friends are super diverse and come from all walks of life).


ALSO: NOT 18+. All ages events like this are rare and need to be more frequent.
Topics to be discussed:
  • Queerbaiting vs. "The creators can't make them gay because the network is mean"
  • Erasure of identities (especially bisexual, pansexual, and aromantic/asexual, since my friends and myself fall into those categories)
  • Why healthy polyamory is better than love triangles
  • Stereotypes and why they're harmful
  • Why Yaoi (in both manga/anime and fanfiction) is more popular than Yuri
  • The censorship of LGBTQ+ people in dubs of animes/manga
More will be added as we think of it

Also, maybe a meet up?


Is there any interest for either of these things?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 08:06:41 am by dark4ever »
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline kuroki-neko

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 10:57:31 pm »
-redacted-
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:20:15 pm by kuroki-neko »

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 11:02:47 pm »
What do you mean by "do virgins count"? Are you asking if virgins fit into the queer category, or... what? I'm confused.

I mean, allies are welcome to the panels. We'd do some education and what not. It'd be a lot of thinks like erasure of identities and what not
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline kuroki-neko

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2014, 11:41:29 am »
-redacted-
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:19:55 pm by kuroki-neko »

Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2014, 12:41:57 pm »
Kuroki, the point is that regardless of "virgin status", that is not a part of the community. "Being a virgin" is not a sexual orientation and thus is not a part of the LGBTQ community. This is why dark4ever is confused by your question. it literally has nothing at all to do with the panel. Sure they are similar in the way that people may say one can choose to be gay as well as choose to be a virgin, or maybe one is born to always be gay and one is born to never get laid, but that does make them the same. That is like saying "I can take an aple as well as chocolate and make them into pies, so therefore they must be the same category", when they chocolate is certainly not a fruit". If you still don't get it, then maybe you should stop trying in the thread here. Not trying to be rude or anything, but it's quite clear that you don't understand what the LGBTQ community even is in the first place, since you seem to think not being able to get laid somehow fits in there when it doesn't.

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2014, 01:59:41 pm »
Jeimi, thank you for saying that. I'm surprised actual question marks didn't appear over my head.

I'm only using the acronym that's well known because MOGII isn't common enough quite yet, and some people dislike the use of the q word. One of the biggest issue in media is how our subsets are perceived (Gay men are flowery, lesbians are butch, bisexuals are easy, trans people are confused, intersex and asexuals don't exist, polysexuals are told they don't exist, etc). This isn't a "chip on the shoulder" mentality. Being asked "When did you realize you're a lesbian?" when talking about an ex-boyfriend and a current girlfriend is erasure, and the media plays a huge part in that.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Arcticfox

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 11:16:57 am »
Nevermind.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 11:29:11 am by Arcticfox »

Offline Lynzie

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 12:14:56 am »
I would definitely be interested in this. :)

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 08:06:52 am »
Updated first post with some possible topics
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Arcticfox

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 04:33:23 pm »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2014, 09:38:50 pm »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.
It's about navigating fandom spaces while being part of the LGBTQ+ community. It's more focused on fandoms than on the media itself, but there will be topics like erasure and subtext not equaling representation. There's a list in the first post.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Valkyrie542

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2014, 10:41:16 am »
It would be a good opportunity to educate people, and I'm always for that!

Maybe you could use examples from anime/manga that show just what is inappropriate representation and erasure of sexual identity?



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Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2014, 11:59:46 am »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.


One huge example that almost everyone knows about is Sailor Moon. So if you know only the dub and don't know anything about the manga or the original story, then you won't understand, but Michiru (Michelle in the dub) and Haruka (Amara in the dub) in the dubbing were made to be cousins who were just really close, almost like cousins that act like loving siblings. But in the original, they were a lesbian couple. This is a prime example of erasure. They thought homosexuality was something a kid should never see, so they removed that idea from the dub (which was specifically done for children). Then you have the whole gay ships basket..lol Where people get mad about putting like, Naruto and Sasuke in an OTP..There are people that will tell you to kill yourself when it comes to a gay OTP because they are convinced that just because it isn't specifically stated that the character likes men, that the go-to is "he must be into girls if he isn't making out with guys on the show". Which all of this falls under the LGBTQA+ Title

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2014, 12:50:03 pm »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.


One huge example that almost everyone knows about is Sailor Moon. So if you know only the dub and don't know anything about the manga or the original story, then you won't understand, but Michiru (Michelle in the dub) and Haruka (Amara in the dub) in the dubbing were made to be cousins who were just really close, almost like cousins that act like loving siblings. But in the original, they were a lesbian couple. This is a prime example of erasure. They thought homosexuality was something a kid should never see, so they removed that idea from the dub (which was specifically done for children). Then you have the whole gay ships basket..lol Where people get mad about putting like, Naruto and Sasuke in an OTP..There are people that will tell you to kill yourself when it comes to a gay OTP because they are convinced that just because it isn't specifically stated that the character likes men, that the go-to is "he must be into girls if he isn't making out with guys on the show". Which all of this falls under the LGBTQA+ Title
Yeah, the Uranus/Neptune stuff got really creepy really fast, too ._. I'm not sure if the dubbers realized what was going on, especially since they left all the flirting in on accident

And yeah, "heterosexual as the default", or more simply "heteronormativity" plays into fandoms as well. There's also the overcompensation of queer ships vs. het ships, and that's something my group actually talks about a lot, and would lead into the topic about yaoi being more "acceptable" than yuri.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2014, 12:51:25 pm »
It would be a good opportunity to educate people, and I'm always for that!

Maybe you could use examples from anime/manga that show just what is inappropriate representation and erasure of sexual identity?




My roommate has that covered. I mentioned this panel in passing and she pulled out three examples that I didn't even think of (I'm not doing this alone, I'm just the only person who has a forum account)

I mean, bisexual erasure is a huuuuuuuuge thing that my household talks about, so I know that's going to be a topic.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline superjaz

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 03:15:54 pm »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.


One huge example that almost everyone knows about is Sailor Moon. So if you know only the dub and don't know anything about the manga or the original story, then you won't understand, but Michiru (Michelle in the dub) and Haruka (Amara in the dub) in the dubbing were made to be cousins who were just really close, almost like cousins that act like loving siblings. But in the original, they were a lesbian couple. This is a prime example of erasure. They thought homosexuality was something a kid should never see, so they removed that idea from the dub (which was specifically done for children). Then you have the whole gay ships basket..lol Where people get mad about putting like, Naruto and Sasuke in an OTP..There are people that will tell you to kill yourself when it comes to a gay OTP because they are convinced that just because it isn't specifically stated that the character likes men, that the go-to is "he must be into girls if he isn't making out with guys on the show". Which all of this falls under the LGBTQA+ Title

and Zoisite and Malachite
Yeah seeing that was one of those moments kinda like tenchi muyo where nudity was edited, where did the swimsuits go?

  This works for a history of it, it was also about 20ish years ago, back in the era when it was major gossip at school that there was a girl-girl kiss on basic TV(Roseanne).
Are there occurrences of this type of editing in the more recent last 10 years?
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Offline Valkyrie542

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 07:01:17 am »
With all respect i really am unclear what this would have to do with Anime. I mean are you going to be touching base with the gay aspect of anime. Are you going to going into the hidden within video games. I don't understand.


One huge example that almost everyone knows about is Sailor Moon. So if you know only the dub and don't know anything about the manga or the original story, then you won't understand, but Michiru (Michelle in the dub) and Haruka (Amara in the dub) in the dubbing were made to be cousins who were just really close, almost like cousins that act like loving siblings. But in the original, they were a lesbian couple. This is a prime example of erasure. They thought homosexuality was something a kid should never see, so they removed that idea from the dub (which was specifically done for children). Then you have the whole gay ships basket..lol Where people get mad about putting like, Naruto and Sasuke in an OTP..There are people that will tell you to kill yourself when it comes to a gay OTP because they are convinced that just because it isn't specifically stated that the character likes men, that the go-to is "he must be into girls if he isn't making out with guys on the show". Which all of this falls under the LGBTQA+ Title

I have known about Michiru and Haurka for awhile and I also know about Malachite and Zoicite (thank you for reminding me, superjaz!); which would be the reassure of homosexual relationships and possibly...Transexuality? I remember Zoicite being very effeminate and I'm not quite sure if he was designed to be a beautiful man or represent transexuality.

You bring up another good point; I can't believe some fans would say things like that to other people just because they believe (or want) a character to be gay. I remember seeing quite a few anti-yaoi stamps on Deviantart a few years back...
That in itself is homophobia; simply not wanting your favorite character to be homosexual and/or getting mad at people who believe a character is or could be gay is very unfortunate.

Also, I feel as though yaoi and yuri is oversexualized in general and the younger anime fans get obsessed with the sex and don't respect the relationships. You know, the whole 'tee-hee! Are you an uke or seme~?' or 'Are you like {character} or {character}?'

 
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2014, 11:20:52 am »

Also, I feel as though yaoi and yuri is oversexualized in general and the younger anime fans get obsessed with the sex and don't respect the relationships. You know, the whole 'tee-hee! Are you an uke or seme~?' or 'Are you like {character} or {character}?'

The fact that that thought is super prevalent is surprising to me. I struggle to find yuri that isn't terrible, and what I do find, is just girl's kissing. There isn't much sex, and when there is sex, it isn't graphic or anything like that. Though the "yuri legs" are on par with "yaoi hands" with bad anatomy
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline superjaz

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 02:58:03 pm »
from what I read Card captor sakura is almost a mix,
It was called "card captors" in the US so it would include boys (vs only marketed to girls)
So on the one hand yay boys n girls can like the same stuff!
But then apparently they edited a gay couple, that didn't really do anything questionable.
No...

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2014, 04:36:07 pm »
Perhaps it's because I'm not a member of this community, but it seems to me like there's enough of such content that this wouldn't be "necessary."  However, Valkyrie did bring up an interesting point, and that was education.  It seems that those that are "into" that type of thing don't fully understand stuff, or only focus on one thing.  Depending on what you decide, this panel could be remarkable.
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2014, 06:14:06 pm »
Perhaps it's because I'm not a member of this community, but it seems to me like there's enough of such content that this wouldn't be "necessary."  However, Valkyrie did bring up an interesting point, and that was education.  It seems that those that are "into" that type of thing don't fully understand stuff, or only focus on one thing.  Depending on what you decide, this panel could be remarkable.
I can count on one hand the number of positive representations in media. People outside the community tend to see "giant stereotypes" as good examples. I can tell if someone is under educated if they list Glee as "positive representation". I mean, how many bisexual characters do you know that don't flirt with everyone they know? How often has the word bisexual been said in media? Is there any asexual characters at all, or is it all perception?

Then there's the toxic community that is yaoi fans- that's going to be fun to get into
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2014, 11:56:50 pm »
Perhaps it's because I'm not a member of this community, but it seems to me like there's enough of such content that this wouldn't be "necessary."  However, Valkyrie did bring up an interesting point, and that was education.  It seems that those that are "into" that type of thing don't fully understand stuff, or only focus on one thing.  Depending on what you decide, this panel could be remarkable.
I can count on one hand the number of positive representations in media. People outside the community tend to see "giant stereotypes" as good examples. I can tell if someone is under educated if they list Glee as "positive representation". I mean, how many bisexual characters do you know that don't flirt with everyone they know? How often has the word bisexual been said in media? Is there any asexual characters at all, or is it all perception?

Then there's the toxic community that is yaoi fans- that's going to be fun to get into

I'm not talking about the media; I'm talking about cons.  It seems like at least 2/3 of con attendees are either gay or into YAOI and/or yuri.  And Heaven forbid if any other attendee speaks in opposition to or questions about the gay lifestyle.  That's what I was getting at.  The subject seems as open at cons as loving the Seahawks at a local sports bar.  ...which is perhaps all the more reason why this panel ought to be done, especially because of that last part.
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2014, 03:48:02 pm »
I'm not talking about the media; I'm talking about cons.  It seems like at least 2/3 of con attendees are either gay or into YAOI and/or yuri.  And Heaven forbid if any other attendee speaks in opposition to or questions about the gay lifestyle.  That's what I was getting at.  The subject seems as open at cons as loving the Seahawks at a local sports bar.  ...which is perhaps all the more reason why this panel ought to be done, especially because of that last part.
I hope I'm misunderstanding this, but are you saying it's okay to disrespect the community? Because this con is seriously not a safe space. Myself and my partner were presenting as female for most of the weekend, and the amount of crap we got (stink eyes, glaring, comments that were clearly meant for us to hear) was disgusting. Not to mention the disregard for different gender identities. Kumoricon is not a safe place, not by a long shot. The point of this panel is to give people a place to go where they know we'll respect them.


I mean, the con is just outside of Portland, and yet someone actually laughed at me when I asked they not call me a woman.


And being into yaoi/yuri means nothing. The number of homophobic people that watch lesbian porn is astounding.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2014, 04:05:34 pm »
I'm sorry to be short, but I've spent my entire life being invalidated. When I'm kind, I get walked on. I have to be short in order to get people to listen.

It sucks.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline kuroki-neko

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2014, 06:00:02 pm »
I'm going to be blunt, that's life everyone gets walked on. I was depressed most of my teen years , it took me a while to overcome it.

The thing is is not that you are LGBTQ (or however its used) its the fact that you think you deserve special treatment because you are that. Most people won't care if you are  or not, but there will always be hateful people. Just think about how it was like twenty or thirty years ago.  Other people get the same mistreatment for other matters than their sexual identity, but i am not trying to belittle how bigots act.


Offline Arcticfox

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 06:23:34 pm »
I am sorry that those things happend to you but this is the first time i have heard of it. I have several gay and transgender friends who go to con and have not had any trouble. Mayhaps those where new con goers not knowing the edicit of the con. Again i am sorry this happend but again If you do a panel like this i just want anime and video game aspects mentioned. I mean this is an anime con.

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2014, 06:29:05 pm »
I'm going to be blunt, that's life everyone gets walked on. I was depressed most of my teen years , it took me a while to overcome it.

The thing is is not that you are LGBTQ (or however its used) its the fact that you think you deserve special treatment because you are that. Most people won't care if you are  or not, but there will always be hateful people. Just think about how it was like twenty or thirty years ago.  Other people get the same mistreatment for other matters than their sexual identity, but i am not trying to belittle how bigots act.


If someone is asking for special treatment, they're wrong. I'm asking for human decency. To be treated like a person, not to be given nasty looks and treated like some sort of prop.

And this isn't about other topics. It's about a single topic, because that's what I can speak about and relate to. I don't intend to branch out; I have no right to speak about some topics
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2014, 06:31:08 pm »
I am sorry that those things happend to you but this is the first time i have heard of it. I have several gay and transgender friends who go to con and have not had any trouble. Mayhaps those where new con goers not knowing the edicit of the con. Again i am sorry this happend but again If you do a panel like this i just want anime and video game aspects mentioned. I mean this is an anime con.
I have 15-20 people coming to me with similar experiences to mine, and I'm more inclined to believe people who have gone to many cons and say that kumoricon is one of the worst (I have friends who have been in the con circuit for over a decade and continue to say kumoricon makes them nervous).

Oh, don't worry, anime and video games will be the focus. I mean, yeah, we'll go into some western fandoms, but Kumoricon is still primarily an anime convention. So that'll be the focus (I'll have to make sure to be dressed as Balthier or Minamimoto at the time. Just imagine Cinder talking about anime- so wrong)
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Valkyrie542

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2014, 07:17:51 pm »
-superjaz: I think you mean Tori and Julian, right? (Sorry, I've forgotten their Japanese names)
But you're right, they weren't even portrayed in an explicit setting; but because they were still considered gay, they were, instead, made out to be uber best friends.

-Arcticfox: You bring up a good point; I'll have to try and remember any LGBTQA+ people in video games!

-dark4ever: I can understand why you get the stink eye sometimes; I hear stories about how bisexuals or lesbians get mocked or outright bashed - because they're in a girlxgirl relationship or cosplay as a girlxgirl pairing. Like I mentioned before, the younger fans get obsessed with the sexual or pairing aspects of yaoi - and yaoi only - instead of recognizing and respecting relationships. ALL relationships.

These fans need to realize that yaoi and yuri are niches in entertainment and should not be taken seriously; that's not how homosexual people really are.

I think cons in general make a lot of people nervous because of some of the inappropriate behavior that's displayed; the glomping, the groping, the yaoi/yuri paddles (glad they've been banned) and signs, the preference for yaoi, etc. It's all in the yaoi/yuri culture and it's VERY harmful!

I guess my first impression when I learned about this panel was the hope that the culture would be discussed and maybe more people can learn about the damage these stereotypes can cause. That, and maybe people could list off anime/manga/games/shows that portray healthy and realistic representations.
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2014, 07:53:05 pm »
-superjaz: I think you mean Tori and Julian, right? (Sorry, I've forgotten their Japanese names)
But you're right, they weren't even portrayed in an explicit setting; but because they were still considered gay, they were, instead, made out to be uber best friends.

-Arcticfox: You bring up a good point; I'll have to try and remember any LGBTQA+ people in video games!

-dark4ever: I can understand why you get the stink eye sometimes; I hear stories about how bisexuals or lesbians get mocked or outright bashed - because they're in a girlxgirl relationship or cosplay as a girlxgirl pairing. Like I mentioned before, the younger fans get obsessed with the sexual or pairing aspects of yaoi - and yaoi only - instead of recognizing and respecting relationships. ALL relationships.

These fans need to realize that yaoi and yuri are niches in entertainment and should not be taken seriously; that's not how homosexual people really are.

I think cons in general make a lot of people nervous because of some of the inappropriate behavior that's displayed; the glomping, the groping, the yaoi/yuri paddles (glad they've been banned) and signs, the preference for yaoi, etc. It's all in the yaoi/yuri culture and it's VERY harmful!

I guess my first impression when I learned about this panel was the hope that the culture would be discussed and maybe more people can learn about the damage these stereotypes can cause. That, and maybe people could list off anime/manga/games/shows that portray healthy and realistic representations.
You have managed to voice thoughts that are sitting in my head and I can't say. So thank you very much for that (I might use one or two of the things you've said in the panel- don't worry, I'll credit)

The focus of this is really to educate and make a safe space, something that the con desperately needs. It's not going to be "gloom and doom and anime sucks the life out of me", there are good representations in media. I mean (I know it's American/Canadian, but it's what's been on my mind), Dragon Age and Mass Effect have hit it out of the park with the love interests. All the Dragon Age 2 romances were bisexual, and then there was Traynor in Mass Effect 3- possibly my favorite romance to date, and she's exclusive for female Shepards.
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline superjaz

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2014, 08:25:10 pm »
Not part of the group but I do my best to be an ally.

On the educational side of things, we are getting to an age that anime is easily obtainable. The next generation of anime fans in general might not realize things like this were edited back in the day, and its actions like that in the past that can lead to feelings of invalidation in the community.

Does that make sense?
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2014, 10:09:56 pm »
Not part of the group but I do my best to be an ally.

On the educational side of things, we are getting to an age that anime is easily obtainable. The next generation of anime fans in general might not realize things like this were edited back in the day, and its actions like that in the past that can lead to feelings of invalidation in the community.

Does that make sense?

Oh, like the weird censorship that went on when we were growing up? Am I understanding that right?
Kumoricon 2017:
Lydia (The Adventure Zone)
Padme (White outfit, Star Wars)
The White Canary (Legends of Tomorrow)
Lup (The Adventure Zone, High School AU)

Panelist, No Light of Sight:
LGBTQ+ Gaymes and Gaymers

Offline Valkyrie542

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2014, 12:24:57 am »
-superjaz: I think I understand, and it's really interesting when you bring it up...
I wonder if more caution is cast into the wind nowadays because it sure does feel like nothing's private or taboo anymore.
It's good, because it leaves the door open and the growing generations have more freedom to try to understand themselves without the fear of being 'weird', 'different' or 'wrong'. But, it's also good to bring in a proper education so they can realize that they need to respect others' identities and personal boundaries.

-dark4ever: You don't have to credit me, but thank you! I'm an ally too, and I have friends who are bi and trans and I'm trying to keep them in mind when I discuss these issues; I would want them to be treated with respect, and I want everyone to have that same respect. They tell me that they're nervous and uncomfortable in public because of stereotypes and I can understand that there's a floodgate of anxiety in a con setting...

Is there anything else that could be left open for discussion?
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2014, 03:59:13 pm »
I'm not talking about the media; I'm talking about cons.  It seems like at least 2/3 of con attendees are either gay or into YAOI and/or yuri.  And Heaven forbid if any other attendee speaks in opposition to or questions about the gay lifestyle.  That's what I was getting at.  The subject seems as open at cons as loving the Seahawks at a local sports bar.  ...which is perhaps all the more reason why this panel ought to be done, especially because of that last part.
I hope I'm misunderstanding this, but are you saying it's okay to disrespect the community? Because this con is seriously not a safe space. Myself and my partner were presenting as female for most of the weekend, and the amount of crap we got (stink eyes, glaring, comments that were clearly meant for us to hear) was disgusting. Not to mention the disregard for different gender identities. Kumoricon is not a safe place, not by a long shot. The point of this panel is to give people a place to go where they know we'll respect them.


I mean, the con is just outside of Portland, and yet someone actually laughed at me when I asked they not call me a woman.


And being into yaoi/yuri means nothing. The number of homophobic people that watch lesbian porn is astounding.

Yeah, you misunderstood the crap out of what I was saying.  What I said is that my experience at Kumoricon has been that most attendees are very open and heartwarming to the community, and rip apart those that say anything that could be taken as hate talk, even when it's not even close.  I can say that based off of personal experience.

I can't comment on your gender identity experience.  What I can say are these:
 - If you appear to be a natural female, people will assume that you're a female.  I know that for me, if you're going through the process to become male, I can understand wanting to be addressed as such.  If not, I have the right to view you as female, because that's what you are.  If you were to ask me to respect your request to be addressed with the male pronouns, I would do my best to remember that out of respect.  But respect my right to see you as a woman, if that's what you were born as.  I can't help but feel that I'm also missing something about this that would make it easier to understand your dilemma...
 - Are you sure that's why you were getting the negative looks?  I can understand the comments (if you know for sure they were about you) and the laugh, but the glares and such could've been for other reasons.  Were you in cosplay?  They may not have liked your methods, or choice, or something to that effect.  Again, I'd have to know more about the situation to understand.
 - The con has done A LOT to improve that false image of the con not being a safe place, especially in the past few years.  Just because there are those that don't agree or don't understand does not mean that the con is not a safe place.  If you feel in danger, or out of place, talk to some staff.  Don't insult the con.  We are not all like that, we have been looking for ways to combat it, and that is why this panel idea is a good idea.
 - I will agree and disagree with your last line.  Being into YAOI and/or yuri is a form of acceptance, and in some cases understanding.  Almost everyone that I know that is into either one is either gay, bi, tran, or a supporter of this community's rights.  As for the "homophobes" that are into lesbian porn are really just against guy on guy stuff, and possibly don't see them as the same thing.  Personally, as someone who's straight, I don't get it.  Lesbian porn only has one benefit for me: education.  Other than that, it makes no sense.  What makes even less sense are the hardcore lesbians who are heavily into YAOI and other straight-action gay porn.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2014, 05:35:47 pm »
I am sorry that those things happend to you but this is the first time i have heard of it. I have several gay and transgender friends who go to con and have not had any trouble. Mayhaps those where new con goers not knowing the edicit of the con. Again i am sorry this happend but again If you do a panel like this i just want anime and video game aspects mentioned. I mean this is an anime con.

Just the same as anything else, con has both bad apples and times where you get people on their bad day, and dang if it isn't possible to run into all of them during con.   I say from experience as I literally have gone to every k-con. 



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Offline Morphious

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2014, 04:06:16 pm »
I would definitely be interested in this panel, since I'm bisexual and gender-fluid myself : )


Although I've got to say, not all BL or GL is bad, you've just got to search for the gems in the rough. Then again, it's fiction. A lot of shojo romance is unrealistic too. Probably why I've taken to reading slash and fem-slash fanfiction more. Even though it's also fiction, authors often times write from real life experience. Unfortunately, Japan is still behind on LGBTQ+ rights and thus, the J-pop culture entertainment reflects that.

Offline TheVampireLeigh

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2015, 08:23:29 pm »
I think this panel is very necessary.

All the straight people here are missing the point that representation in media is important, and it needs to be discussed beyond the popularity of yaoi and yuri.

Queer people need to be treated as people, not tropes, in all media.

Please submit this panel, I'd be glad to help with planning if you need it.


Offline TheVampireLeigh

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2015, 08:33:58 pm »

Yeah, you misunderstood the crap out of what I was saying.  What I said is that my experience at Kumoricon has been that most attendees are very open and heartwarming to the community, and rip apart those that say anything that could be taken as hate talk, even when it's not even close.  I can say that based off of personal experience.

I can't comment on your gender identity experience.  What I can say are these:
 - If you appear to be a natural female, people will assume that you're a female.  I know that for me, if you're going through the process to become male, I can understand wanting to be addressed as such.  If not, I have the right to view you as female, because that's what you are.  If you were to ask me to respect your request to be addressed with the male pronouns, I would do my best to remember that out of respect.  But respect my right to see you as a woman, if that's what you were born as.  I can't help but feel that I'm also missing something about this that would make it easier to understand your dilemma...
 - Are you sure that's why you were getting the negative looks?  I can understand the comments (if you know for sure they were about you) and the laugh, but the glares and such could've been for other reasons.  Were you in cosplay?  They may not have liked your methods, or choice, or something to that effect.  Again, I'd have to know more about the situation to understand.
 - The con has done A LOT to improve that false image of the con not being a safe place, especially in the past few years.  Just because there are those that don't agree or don't understand does not mean that the con is not a safe place.  If you feel in danger, or out of place, talk to some staff.  Don't insult the con.  We are not all like that, we have been looking for ways to combat it, and that is why this panel idea is a good idea.
 - I will agree and disagree with your last line.  Being into YAOI and/or yuri is a form of acceptance, and in some cases understanding.  Almost everyone that I know that is into either one is either gay, bi, tran, or a supporter of this community's rights.  As for the "homophobes" that are into lesbian porn are really just against guy on guy stuff, and possibly don't see them as the same thing.  Personally, as someone who's straight, I don't get it.  Lesbian porn only has one benefit for me: education.  Other than that, it makes no sense.  What makes even less sense are the hardcore lesbians who are heavily into YAOI and other straight-action gay porn.

Please do not speak about this topic if you do not have the perspective to understand it. You clearly know nothing about sex vs gender identity. No one is 'born' a woman. Woman is gender expression. Female is physical sex. Pronouns describe gender expression, not physical sex. You are only born with an assigned biological sex. We as a society decide gender identities and made up arbitrary pronouns to fit the gender expression of those identities. Identities have nothing to do with sex. Some people simply agree with the ones they are assigned at birth, and others do not.

No, it is NOT your right to assume anything about anyone elses identity.

And Yaoi and Yuri is extremely unrealistic. Its unfair for that to be peoples main source of information about gay relationships. Sexualising same sex relationships and treating them as marketable, and yet not fully supporting the rights of ACTUAL people who fit that mold is a huge problem.  Representation is ONLY support if the representation is ACCURATE, otherwise its just promoting stereotypes and harming the community.

No, not all BL or GL is bad, but generally, treating homosexuality as a money maker, promoting stereotypes, spreading misinformation, and sexualization of real people is a very bad thing. Yaoi/Yuri culture contributes to that.

Also, queer people voicing their concerns about safety is more important than the reputation of a convention. Check your priorities. I've experienced extreme homophobia at Kumoricon and the staff done nothing to aid it, is that your fault personally? No. Does that mean I don't have the right to be pissed off about it? No. Stop belittling and invalidating people's experiences. You have no idea what happened, don't try to suggest that they weren't experiencing transphobia, homophobia, sexism or discrimination of any kind when you clearly don't know what that experience is like.

As for your question about lesbians, you can't put sexuality in a box, and its really none of your business what kind of pornography people watch.

TLDR; you really don't have the right to be in this forum belittling the concerns and interests of queer people.  If you don't like the panel topic then don't come.



« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:47:59 pm by TheVampireLeigh »

Offline TardisPants

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2015, 03:54:16 pm »
I'd be really interested in this panel, if I can go this year, it'd be great to see something like this!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 04:00:24 pm by TardisPants »

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2015, 04:36:53 pm »
Please do not speak about this topic if you do not have the perspective to understand it. You clearly know nothing about sex vs gender identity. No one is 'born' a woman. Woman is gender expression. Female is physical sex. Pronouns describe gender expression, not physical sex. You are only born with an assigned biological sex. We as a society decide gender identities and made up arbitrary pronouns to fit the gender expression of those identities. Identities have nothing to do with sex. Some people simply agree with the ones they are assigned at birth, and others do not.

No, it is NOT your right to assume anything about anyone elses identity.

And Yaoi and Yuri is extremely unrealistic. Its unfair for that to be peoples main source of information about gay relationships. Sexualising same sex relationships and treating them as marketable, and yet not fully supporting the rights of ACTUAL people who fit that mold is a huge problem.  Representation is ONLY support if the representation is ACCURATE, otherwise its just promoting stereotypes and harming the community.

No, not all BL or GL is bad, but generally, treating homosexuality as a money maker, promoting stereotypes, spreading misinformation, and sexualization of real people is a very bad thing. Yaoi/Yuri culture contributes to that.

Also, queer people voicing their concerns about safety is more important than the reputation of a convention. Check your priorities. I've experienced extreme homophobia at Kumoricon and the staff done nothing to aid it, is that your fault personally? No. Does that mean I don't have the right to be pissed off about it? No. Stop belittling and invalidating people's experiences. You have no idea what happened, don't try to suggest that they weren't experiencing transphobia, homophobia, sexism or discrimination of any kind when you clearly don't know what that experience is like.

As for your question about lesbians, you can't put sexuality in a box, and its really none of your business what kind of pornography people watch.

TLDR; you really don't have the right to be in this forum belittling the concerns and interests of queer people.  If you don't like the panel topic then don't come.

You assume that I don't understand the subject because I disagree with you?  That's sad.  I do understand the subject, as my closest friends, including the woman that provided me with a child, are members of this community.  I understand it as an "outsider" better than you give me credit for.  Heck, some have said that I am in the community, as well, because of things that I've done, including at this con.  Pronouns describe physical sex, too, depending on the pronoun; that's just proper English.  However, it is part of why I agree that a panel like this can be a good thing, which you would have figured that out if you read my previous post without hatred.

I do have the right to assume anything about someone's physical appearance upon first encounter.  Why?  Natural instinct.  If I see a human, my brain will process that it is a human.  If they appear to be of a particular ethnicity, my brain will process that said human is part of that ethnicity.  If they appear to be of a specific gender off of first glance, my brain will process that they are of that gender.  It's my right as a human being and as an American.  Learning that said person associates them self as something else comes from becoming familiar with them.  I have the right to make these assumptions, just as much as I have the right to learn if I'm correct or not.  That second one comes from introductions.

Of course YAOI and Yuri is unrealistic.  They're both genres of manga (or anime); being unrealistic is more common, and is often (but not mandatory) a part of the appeal.  I will only add that it's not just YAOI and Yuri that is incorrectly portrayed for financial gain.  It's called a business, one that is designed to appeal to a certain desired fantasy.  They do the same thing with us straights, too.  We don't complain about it.  Why?  Because that's how these types of businesses works and we know that it's not an accurate portrayal of what we are.  I will, however, agree that anyone who assumes that YAOI/Yuri portray gays correctly needs to get out and meet some people.  (Though to be fair, I do know some gay males that act like some YAOI characters, so they aren't 100% off).

I never said that the con's rep is more important that ANYONE'S safety.  What I said was that said person needs to understand that the con tries, and has been trying, to accommodate everyone that comes and that they shouldn't insult the con because some attendees might not agree with that lifestyle.  I am correct on this.  As for your experience, go to a higher-up.  I guarantee that the staff as a whole hate that type of treatment, and if they learn that a staff member has disregarded anyone's safety or security, including something "homophobic," they will act.  The staffer in particular will be spoken to by a superior.  I'm not belittling someone's experience.  If you read what I said, I've stated that I don't know the full situation, but also know that it could've been for other reasons.  My own experience has taught me that "homophobic" comments aren't such, but cases where someone was easily offended.  I've been called homophobic because I've stated that Jim Henson Inc. has confirmed that Bert and Ernie are not, and never have been, gay.  Sometimes, it's a misunderstanding, and that I knew nothing more than what was provided; that's all I was stating.

I never made a question about lesbianism, nor did I state that I wanted to know who watched what.  I have no idea where you're getting these ridiculous ideas, but please stop accusing me of absurd things.

Finally, I have every right to be in these forums, including this specific thread, if I want to.  I can also drop in comments here and there, provided that they are not intended to be harmful.  I have not done this, but rather attempted to provide extra insight to make the panel more informative and successful.  The panelist/s can take whatever has been provided here and done whatever they want with it, including my contributions.  If that includes ignoring my words, they can.  You' however, do not have the right to tell me that I can't put in my two cents simply because you disagree with me or THINK that my words are hurtful.  If dark4ever was hurt by my words, I will apologize, but only to dark4ever.  I was simply trying to be more than a parrot clucking, "I like this idea."  Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, but I wanted to give more than that.
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Offline Vivi

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Re: Interest in LGBTQ+ panel?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2015, 12:01:37 pm »
I would absolutely love a panel like this!   8)

I'm so certain that it could be really successful in spreading awareness, bringing light to associated topics, and help a major portion of the anime community feel acknowledged.  In fact, I think a panel like this is absolutely necessary.  The topics OP put in the first post are very relevant anime discussions with a ton of real world bits that need to be recognized by everybody.

I think I would also be super cool with participating in a meet up like this!  I am bigender (he/him and she/her pronouns) and bisexual biromantic. 

So yeah, I'm 100% on board.
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