Author Topic: Bathrooms.  (Read 3882 times)

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Offline KnightByDesign

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Bathrooms.
« on: September 02, 2014, 11:07:23 pm »
I think it's great that there were ungendered restrooms. However, when I asked where the Woman's restroom was, I kept getting redirected to the ungendered restrooms.


Here's why that upsets me.


1) Some of the staff were rude when I asked them, giving me attitudes along the lines of "why don't you know where the restrooms are? It's day 3!" As an artist alley vendor, the only time I used the restroom outside of my hotel room was on day three. I could barely leave my table and didn't really leave my room otherwise. So no, I didn't know where they were.


2) I identify as genderfluid, leaning mostly female. But, I do not feel comfortable in an ungendered bathroom at a con. I wish I could be more trusting, but I don't trust that most of the male population who enters those restrooms do so with pure intentions. Especially since I had already had a few prior run-ins with a few gentlemen who made me feel very very uncomfortable.


3) If someone asks for the women's restroom, you point them towards THE WOMEN'S RESTROOM.

Offline acton

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 12:17:08 am »
I recall the bathrooms closer to the starbucks,  the ungendered converted from the mens bathroom and the women's bathroom  was  left of  the ungenred.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 12:19:38 am by acton »

Offline KnightByDesign

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 12:43:04 am »
I realize that. It was the first time I'd left my table all day, and the first time for me going into another part of the con center. As this was my first Kumoricon, and having not been in that Hilton before, I had asked about 8 different Kumoricon Staffers. And yet, I was still not directed to the correct bathroom. Eventually I sucked it up and just used the ungendered bathrooms because I had to pee so bad. As such, I did see a few men and their respective junk and that is another reason I'm not happy.

Offline reppy

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 02:43:02 am »
Sorry, I am a little confused. When I peeked down that hallway to use the restroom, my understanding was that there was an ungendered bathroom and women's bathroom right next to each other. Was that not the case?

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Offline DarkStar

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 08:25:14 am »
Sorry, I am a little confused. When I peeked down that hallway to use the restroom, my understanding was that there was an ungendered bathroom and women's bathroom right next to each other. Was that not the case?
The problem is that it started this way, but later on (Day 2?) the Women's restroom became ungendered as well. I unfortunately directed a couple of women to this restroom as well until I learned that it got changed to ungenered as well.
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Offline veraca

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 12:46:17 pm »
My friend brought this up and I thought they had a good point.
Genderfluid bathrooms are a fantastic idea. They don't need to be on the first floor. One set of bathrooms can be genderfluid (by the Main events) while the other (by the Starbucks) can remain normal. Right above (the starbucks) is another set of bathrooms that could afford to have a genderfluid bathroom. This way, there's a genderfluid on the first floor farthest from the main Hilton lobby, and yet there is one right above that same main lobby.
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Offline acton

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 01:13:32 pm »
I would take this up  with staff  taking down one  men and making it ungenred   is not problem  but  doing the same  to the womens is a problem.

Offline RobinSena

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 06:59:11 pm »
Honestly, I would have rather they had made the other set of bathrooms (the ones by the elevators / live events) unisex, rather than the ones next to the Karaoke room.  The one by the Karaoke room was the one with the baby changing table and changing a little girl was a bit awkward with males present.  Not that I think that any of them that were in the bathroom were potential sex offenders or anything (or that I didn't trust the men in the room), but it was definitely something that I wasn't really comfortable with, especially as I don't think that any of the other bathrooms had a changing table as an alternative.  And while I myself don't have any issues being in the same room with men (art student here, so nothing new to see there), I feel a lot differently when it comes to my child being exposed to things like that.

It was really weird that they waited until halfway through con to post signs making those bathrooms unisex.
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Offline Bresslol

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 08:05:24 pm »
A little staff education will go a long way on this.

I'm sorry you were made to be felt uncomfortable. Harassment of that nature is not looked highly upon by staff.


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Offline JeffT

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2014, 11:51:24 am »
As moderator, I've deleted an off-topic tangent from this thread.
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Offline musicalmaxwell

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 07:15:19 pm »
Sorry, I am a little confused. When I peeked down that hallway to use the restroom, my understanding was that there was an ungendered bathroom and women's bathroom right next to each other. Was that not the case?
The problem is that it started this way, but later on (Day 2?) the Women's restroom became ungendered as well. I unfortunately directed a couple of women to this restroom as well until I learned that it got changed to ungenered as well.
I am pretty certain this was not the case, or was done on accident.
Some time on day 2, the "ungendered restroom" sign was vandalised, so we made 2 more signs.
I think someone got confused and replaced BOTH signs with "ungendered restroom"
I used those restrooms on day 3 and day 4 and I recall that there was a womens restroom and an ungendered restroom in the Hilton both of those days.
I have to say, as a fellow trans person, a whole bunch of girls giggling while you're trying to pee is not the most comfortable thing to experience in the ungendered restroom. I never did find out where that lonely mens restroom was.

Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 07:54:29 pm »
Sorry, I am a little confused. When I peeked down that hallway to use the restroom, my understanding was that there was an ungendered bathroom and women's bathroom right next to each other. Was that not the case?
The problem is that it started this way, but later on (Day 2?) the Women's restroom became ungendered as well. I unfortunately directed a couple of women to this restroom as well until I learned that it got changed to ungenered as well.
I am pretty certain this was not the case, or was done on accident.
Some time on day 2, the "ungendered restroom" sign was vandalised, so we made 2 more signs.
I think someone got confused and replaced BOTH signs with "ungendered restroom"
I used those restrooms on day 3 and day 4 and I recall that there was a womens restroom and an ungendered restroom in the Hilton both of those days.
I have to say, as a fellow trans person, a whole bunch of girls giggling while you're trying to pee is not the most comfortable thing to experience in the ungendered restroom. I never did find out where that lonely mens restroom was.


The thing that got me, was on day 3, in the Hilton....I asked TWICE where the bathrooms were. I never got purposely pointed to the ungendered one..I went to where they said the men's and women's ones were. Go figure, the damn men's room had a sign that said it WAS FREAKING CLOSED!!!! Come on people..Out of all things, there at least has to be a safe plae for people. A lot of people are obviously not ok with the ungendered rooms, and the ONE person they do not wanting in a bathroom with them is usually a male. So what happens? Let
s have a sign on only the male bathroom..You guys would rather have an ungendered bathroom and 2 women's bathrooms than ONE male one? No way was I walking into that ungendered one, I know people are scared and I would rather be the solution. So I held it until I got to my room in the other hotel because god forbid someone should change ONE of the 2 women's rooms into a men's room only..JUST for the darn rest of the weekend..

Offline KingOfAutumn

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2014, 10:14:23 pm »
That must be really frustrating. Being predominately unisex/ungendered it was a real relief for me not to have to pick one restroom over the other.
But I completely understand why it angered you.
I probably would've been pretty upset if I was pointed to a women's bathroom to be honest.
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Offline seshetaxhikaru

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 11:44:23 am »
While I thought the idea of a non-biased gender bathroom was neat, I must say that I was a bit shocked.  My daughter (who is 9) and I used the bathroom.  There was no sign other than the official womens. So we naturally assumed that's what it was. However I was surprised when a boy walked out of the stall and my daughter's eyes got really large and her face turned bright red. It was a bit uncomfortable for her and unsettling for me as a parent. So I completely understand your feelings of discomfort. After that we no longer used the restrooms on that side of the hotel.


As a parent, I think the idea of a gender free bathroom is a lawsuit waiting to happen. While we were in the restroom, several young women (I am positive most were minors), changed their clothes out in the open.  While I am not saying that all or any con goers would take advantage of this, there are other people at the hotel outside of con goers to consider as well.  Having a co-ed bathroom leaves several opportunities available for bad situations to occur.


While I personally don't have any issues with this, it was a bit unsettling as a parent and was not something I was prepared to educate my daughter in that weekend. 
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Offline KingOfAutumn

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 01:57:07 pm »
While I thought the idea of a non-biased gender bathroom was neat, I must say that I was a bit shocked.  My daughter (who is 9) and I used the bathroom.  There was no sign other than the official womens. So we naturally assumed that's what it was. However I was surprised when a boy walked out of the stall and my daughter's eyes got really large and her face turned bright red. It was a bit uncomfortable for her and unsettling for me as a parent. So I completely understand your feelings of discomfort. After that we no longer used the restrooms on that side of the hotel.


As a parent, I think the idea of a gender free bathroom is a lawsuit waiting to happen. While we were in the restroom, several young women (I am positive most were minors), changed their clothes out in the open.  While I am not saying that all or any con goers would take advantage of this, there are other people at the hotel outside of con goers to consider as well.  Having a co-ed bathroom leaves several opportunities available for bad situations to occur.


While I personally don't have any issues with this, it was a bit unsettling as a parent and was not something I was prepared to educate my daughter in that weekend.


Oh god that sounds terrible. I'm sorry that happened for you guys! I don't think they should change out it the open period, whether they're in a women's bathroom or not. That would make me feel uncomfortable to see no matter what bathroom I would be in. I can see the problems that could arise from having a ungendered bathroom, there are too many bad people in the world that would ruin something like this for the rest of us. Again, I'm really sorry that happened for you and your daughter, I empathize with the both of you. I thought they made two signs for both of the bathrooms on day 2, but maybe it wasn't clear enough and I can see how the confusion could occur.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:58:19 pm by KingOfAutumn »
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Offline ScrumYummy

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 11:30:27 am »
While I thought the idea of a non-biased gender bathroom was neat, I must say that I was a bit shocked.  My daughter (who is 9) and I used the bathroom.  There was no sign other than the official womens. So we naturally assumed that's what it was. However I was surprised when a boy walked out of the stall and my daughter's eyes got really large and her face turned bright red. It was a bit uncomfortable for her and unsettling for me as a parent. So I completely understand your feelings of discomfort. After that we no longer used the restrooms on that side of the hotel.

How did you know they were a boy?

Offline superjaz

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 04:28:34 pm »
How did you know they were a boy?

I am curious the point of your inquiry.

Your question seems ready to pick apart the answerer because the response can most likely be because child looked like a boy(?)
And ready is the argument that yes while they assumes the child was male due to appearance, there can be the argument that it was a girl who likes that style, or the child is transgender, intersexed etc.

Or because he looked like a boy, talked like a boy and possibly said "hi I'm generic boy name( boy sounding name though any names can be used for any sex) who are you?"  Which with kids is a real possibility.


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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 07:33:14 pm »
How did you know they were a boy?

I am curious the point of your inquiry.

Your question seems ready to pick apart the answerer because the response can most likely be because child looked like a boy(?)
And ready is the argument that yes while they assumes the child was male due to appearance, there can be the argument that it was a girl who likes that style, or the child is transgender, intersexed etc.

Or because he looked like a boy, talked like a boy and possibly said "hi I'm generic boy name( boy sounding name though any names can be used for any sex) who are you?"  Which with kids is a real possibility.



I'm assuming it's the menatality that I had while reading through this thread, which is that "This person is in an ungendered bathroom, maybe don't assume gender". It's ungendered. So no genders should be assigned.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2014, 08:27:00 pm »
I tend to think of it as gender neutral (I am sure because that's what they where labeled as at Portland State University, I have a transgender friend who used to complain about the closest one to his work wasn't really close to his work at the time)
A bathroom really can't be ungendered, it can be welcome to all genders to use.

Signage and location issues aside, focus for a sec on the kids and babies side.  It sounds like girls bathrooms were turned into gender neutral bathrooms?  With kids people need a changing table and often I have seen a larger stall (wheel chair accessible) is also great for a mom and her kids to use the bathroom together.
Being a girl I have not been in the men's room at the Hilton or red lion.  Guys is there a changing station in them?  They are showing up more often in both gender bathrooms but some times just in the ladies room cuz you know fathers NEVER* change diapers.
*for the record my husband changes our sons diapers often.
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Offline dark4ever

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2014, 10:38:17 pm »
I tend to think of it as gender neutral (I am sure because that's what they where labeled as at Portland State University, I have a transgender friend who used to complain about the closest one to his work wasn't really close to his work at the time)
A bathroom really can't be ungendered, it can be welcome to all genders to use.

Signage and location issues aside, focus for a sec on the kids and babies side.  It sounds like girls bathrooms were turned into gender neutral bathrooms?  With kids people need a changing table and often I have seen a larger stall (wheel chair accessible) is also great for a mom and her kids to use the bathroom together.
Being a girl I have not been in the men's room at the Hilton or red lion.  Guys is there a changing station in them?  They are showing up more often in both gender bathrooms but some times just in the ladies room cuz you know fathers NEVER* change diapers.
*for the record my husband changes our sons diapers often.
I also go to PSU, and the QRC actually fought about the naming. Ungendered is the correct term- I am agender. I lack a gender, so "gender neutral" actually excludes me, since it implies having a gender. Ungendered just means there isn't a gender assigned to the bathroom.

That being said, it was one set of restrooms that were changed, and if people were uncomfortable, there was another set of bathrooms (which were about twice the size of the ungendered ones. I mean they went on forever, I swear) not even 100 feet away, on the other side of the lobby.

The staff was confused and unsure where to send people is what I'm picking up on. I had a hotel room, and since I'm not even remotely comfortable in a public restroom while in costume (for lots of reasons), I did my business up there and didn't interact with staff in that regard.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2014, 10:53:49 am »
The staff was confused and unsure where to send people is what I'm picking up on. I had a hotel room, and since I'm not even remotely comfortable in a public restroom while in costume (for lots of reasons), I did my business up there and didn't interact with staff in that regard.

I can see why there would be problems with that, I just brought up the pocket guide
https://www.kumoricon.org/files/kumoricon2014pocketguide.pdf
The 3 types of bathrooms are color coded gray darker gray and slightly darker grey.  Looking at it I don't know if I could them apart.  I know its the limits of black and white print, but maybe stripes or dots?
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Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2014, 11:46:48 am »
I tend to think of it as gender neutral (I am sure because that's what they where labeled as at Portland State University, I have a transgender friend who used to complain about the closest one to his work wasn't really close to his work at the time)
A bathroom really can't be ungendered, it can be welcome to all genders to use.

Signage and location issues aside, focus for a sec on the kids and babies side.  It sounds like girls bathrooms were turned into gender neutral bathrooms?  With kids people need a changing table and often I have seen a larger stall (wheel chair accessible) is also great for a mom and her kids to use the bathroom together.
Being a girl I have not been in the men's room at the Hilton or red lion.  Guys is there a changing station in them?  They are showing up more often in both gender bathrooms but some times just in the ladies room cuz you know fathers NEVER* change diapers.
*for the record my husband changes our sons diapers often.
That being said, it was one set of restrooms that were changed, and if people were uncomfortable, there was another set of bathrooms (which were about twice the size of the ungendered ones. I mean they went on forever, I swear) not even 100 feet away, on the other side of the lobby.

The staff was confused and unsure where to send people is what I'm picking up on. I had a hotel room, and since I'm not even remotely comfortable in a public restroom while in costume (for lots of reasons), I did my business up there and didn't interact with staff in that regard.

Question..Are you saying that part about the bathrooms across the lobby were at the hotel? I have a reason for asking. If no then nvm but if yes, then you are only sorta correct. If you read my post here from before, I asked them for the men's bathroom, I went over where they said (this would be the other set you mentioned that are gendered), and the men's bathroom was closed. Literally closed with a sign saying no one could use it. I was FORCED to use the multi gender/ungender bathroom. I couldn't just "go to my hotel room" because I was in the red lion and would not make it there in time. So the only bathrooms I had options to were the one multi/un gender or the female room. So no, they can't just go to the other one for men.

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2014, 02:52:15 pm »
Question..Are you saying that part about the bathrooms across the lobby were at the hotel? I have a reason for asking. If no then nvm but if yes, then you are only sorta correct. If you read my post here from before, I asked them for the men's bathroom, I went over where they said (this would be the other set you mentioned that are gendered), and the men's bathroom was closed. Literally closed with a sign saying no one could use it. I was FORCED to use the multi gender/ungender bathroom. I couldn't just "go to my hotel room" because I was in the red lion and would not make it there in time. So the only bathrooms I had options to were the one multi/un gender or the female room. So no, they can't just go to the other one for men.
There were those, which I never saw the men's bathroom out of order. I heard a rumor that some jerk had clogged half the toilets so they had to fix it, but no staff was talking about it, so it might have just been getting cleaned (throw six thousand nerds into a hotel and we're bound to make a mess).


But I never saw it closed. I was over there a lot (all my panels were on that side of the hotel), and never saw it closed. If it had been, there's actually a set of bathrooms directly above where the ungendered one's were (if you took the stairs in the lobby, then continued along the balcony, they were on the left).


Again: it was a lack of communication with staff. I've talked to a couple staffers about this concern, so they're aware of what happened.
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Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2014, 03:52:00 pm »
Question..Are you saying that part about the bathrooms across the lobby were at the hotel? I have a reason for asking. If no then nvm but if yes, then you are only sorta correct. If you read my post here from before, I asked them for the men's bathroom, I went over where they said (this would be the other set you mentioned that are gendered), and the men's bathroom was closed. Literally closed with a sign saying no one could use it. I was FORCED to use the multi gender/ungender bathroom. I couldn't just "go to my hotel room" because I was in the red lion and would not make it there in time. So the only bathrooms I had options to were the one multi/un gender or the female room. So no, they can't just go to the other one for men.
There were those, which I never saw the men's bathroom out of order. I heard a rumor that some jerk had clogged half the toilets so they had to fix it, but no staff was talking about it, so it might have just been getting cleaned (throw six thousand nerds into a hotel and we're bound to make a mess).


But I never saw it closed. I was over there a lot (all my panels were on that side of the hotel), and never saw it closed. If it had been, there's actually a set of bathrooms directly above where the ungendered one's were (if you took the stairs in the lobby, then continued along the balcony, they were on the left).


Again: it was a lack of communication with staff. I've talked to a couple staffers about this concern, so they're aware of what happened.

See, those upstairs ones woulda been nice to know about when I needed it. I was never told about them so that's goes with your thing about staff. Also after I came back from the closed one to ask for another one, the guy blatantly ignored me. He took people around me and didn't acknowledge that I had come back to him. I tried saying excuse me, tried making hand movements to get attention and nothing. Some attendee, yes ATTENDEE, NOT STAFF, came and asked me if I needed help. They pointed me to the other rooms.

Offline dark4ever

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2014, 05:44:34 pm »
See, those upstairs ones woulda been nice to know about when I needed it. I was never told about them so that's goes with your thing about staff. Also after I came back from the closed one to ask for another one, the guy blatantly ignored me. He took people around me and didn't acknowledge that I had come back to him. I tried saying excuse me, tried making hand movements to get attention and nothing. Some attendee, yes ATTENDEE, NOT STAFF, came and asked me if I needed help. They pointed me to the other rooms.
Thaaaaaaaaaaaat just sounds like a really bad staffer. Did you get the guys name? Because that actually sounds like something to bring up with some of the higher ups, so the guy gets either reprimanded or removed from his duties.
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Offline Sailor-Jeimi

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2014, 11:10:46 pm »
See, those upstairs ones woulda been nice to know about when I needed it. I was never told about them so that's goes with your thing about staff. Also after I came back from the closed one to ask for another one, the guy blatantly ignored me. He took people around me and didn't acknowledge that I had come back to him. I tried saying excuse me, tried making hand movements to get attention and nothing. Some attendee, yes ATTENDEE, NOT STAFF, came and asked me if I needed help. They pointed me to the other rooms.
Thaaaaaaaaaaaat just sounds like a really bad staffer. Did you get the guys name? Because that actually sounds like something to bring up with some of the higher ups, so the guy gets either reprimanded or removed from his duties.
Unfortunately, no I didn't. And being a short period of time I don't really remember what he looked like much..All I remember was short dark hair, looked noticeably older than me (I'm 27, but look slightly younger, this guy may have been in his 30s)..That's all I remember

Offline lancej95

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Re: Bathrooms.
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2014, 03:54:56 pm »
Kumo 2014 was my first time at the con and also my first time in a non-gendered bathroom. I thought it was an odd thought but it made the bathroom experience for me less intimidating. I'm sure at least one guy will agree with me when I say that men's rooms tend to have an intimidating atmosphere. It could be the awkwardness of what we're all there to do combined with the testosterone but idk... Having women in there bade it feel a bit more like the world outside of the bathroom so I didn't have to feel like it was a break from the fun of the day and more like a bathroom break.