Author Topic: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!  (Read 29946 times)

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Offline jaybug

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Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« on: May 01, 2011, 08:55:41 pm »
Have you been out dancing in the streets?

I didn't think so.

And do you know what? We won't care all that much unless the price of oil drops. The president may get some mileage out of this, but not much if the economy does not get up off its knees.
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Offline StarryShay

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 08:56:56 pm »
I feel bad for him ' A '
He had to spend the last ten years of his life hiding....

Offline Saki-the-cat

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 08:57:28 pm »
I thought he was already dead, so when i heard this news from everyone on DA i was just thinking people were really slow...

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 09:18:15 pm »
I dunno, I'm pretty happy he's dead.

EDIT: For clarification: I'm happy he's dead because it means more deaths will be averted. He wasn't the most 'evil' person ever, and there are people who 'deserve' to die more.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 09:31:23 pm by MiriaRose »
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Offline Darknight2433

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 09:25:47 pm »
RIP dude

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 10:02:38 pm »
I feel bad for him ' A '
He had to spend the last ten years of his life hiding....

RIP dude

"Yeah, well, you know, that's, like, your opinion, man."
Shay, you are a lot nicer than I will ever be on the matter. I mean that whole-heartedly and unsarcastically with absolutely no malice.

Here's my opinion:
Good riddance, I say, and this isn't some "Never Forget" nonsense. You reap what you sew, and after murdering thousands of people, not just on 9-11, and the destruction of centuries old art, I have little sympathy for the man. There was a point in time in the Middle East in which women actually had a voice and didn't have to wear burqas, and what goes on now with some crazy fundamentalists is sub-human at best.

 Surreal day, but good news in my humble opinion. It won't change anything for sure, but at least it's something. I don't think he's been the head of Al Qaida for a while, but at least it's something. It's not going to affect the oil prices, sadly, and it's a definite boostie to the President's chances of re-election, but this is a type of satisfaction that I imagine a lot of Jews had upon hearing that Hitler died from hiding in his bunker. Didn't change what happened, didn't make the Nazi influence go away, but it was something.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:08:30 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 10:08:22 pm »
Have you been out dancing in the streets?

I was dancing in my father's living room; does that count?

I feel bad for him ' A '
He had to spend the last ten years of his life hiding....

 :o

Are you serious?  The man deserved it!  I just hope his death was as long and painful as it could have been!

Good riddance, I say. This isn't some "Never Forget" nonsense. You reap what you sew, and after murdering thousands of people, not just on 9-11, and the destruction of centuries old art for make me have little sympathy for the man. He didn't have to hide in a cave. He just knew he'd be killed if he didn't. Surreal day, but if true, a happy one. It won't change anything for sure, but at least it's something. I don't think he's been the head of Al Qaida for a while, but at least it's something.

Agree 100%.

and it's a definite boostie to the President's chances of re-election

Not sure on this, though...
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2011, 10:10:12 pm »
I feel bad for him ' A '
He had to spend the last ten years of his life hiding....

RIP dude

"Yeah, well, you know, that's, like, your opinion, man."
Shay, you are a lot nicer than I will ever be on the matter. I mean that whole-heartedly and unsarcastically with absolutely no malice.

Here's my opinion:
Good riddance, I say, and this isn't some "Never Forget" nonsense. You reap what you sew, and after murdering thousands of people, not just on 9-11, and the destruction of centuries old art, I have little sympathy for the man. There was a point in time in the Middle East in which women actually had a voice and didn't have to wear burqas, and what goes on now with some crazy fundamentalists is sub-human at best.

 Surreal day, but good news in my humble opinion. It won't change anything for sure, but at least it's something. I don't think he's been the head of Al Qaida for a while, but at least it's something. It's not going to affect the oil prices, sadly, and it's a definite boostie to the President's chances of re-election, but this is a type of satisfaction that I imagine a lot of Jews had upon hearing that Hitler died from hiding in his bunker. Didn't change what happened, didn't make the Nazi influence go away, but it was something.
So, do you think President Bush deserves to die for leading more to their deaths than bin Laden?
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2011, 10:15:16 pm »
There is a large difference between leading a willing army to war than an unprovoked and unnecessary act, but, yes, I do think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, etc. do need to be tried as war criminals. Let the courts decide whether or not they are guilty.

Bin Laden laid proud claim to the murders he committed. He would do it again and again. Bush, at the very least, stopped once out of office. At the very least, the upmost fundamental level, it is safe to assume that Bush did not take pleasure in the killing of people. I am not a Bush sympathizer so please don't misunderstand me, but I do believe that in a lot of areas he wanted to genuinely do well for this country. In the subject of oil, though, that opinion changes quite a bit, and I wonder the position of oil within the War on Iraq. If papers are released giving a definitive tie between oil and the Iraqi war, then Bush definitely needs to be tried. You don't kill soldiers and innocent Middle Eastern people over oil.

Wa-kun, Bush found Saddam Hussein right before the 2004 election, and his approval ratings suddenly rocketed. I can only imagine that Obama will find the same positive polling results.

EDIT: Took out a statement since I started to make assumptions about your opinion, Miria, when you were just asking a question.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:19:19 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2011, 10:19:26 pm »
I doubt bin Laden took pleasure in killing people. Unless you have proof he was a sadist?

Obama is continuing the wars, btw- Does that mean he's a war criminal, too? There's still been plenty of civillian deaths since 2009, not to mention that Gitmo and similar prisons are still up and running.
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 10:21:39 pm »
He came out and said that he was responsible for 9-11. To me that is proof enough.

I'm fully aware that Obama is continuing the war, and that's something that I knew wouldn't end when I voted for him. My preferred candidate dropped out, and he actually would provide a solution to getting out of Iraq when asked. Guantanamo Bay was another thing that I knew wouldn't close.

There's a difference between maintaining and starting, but that's something to think about Miria. What's your opinion on Osama Bin Laden's death?
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2011, 10:21:53 pm »
So, do you think President Bush deserves to die for leading more to their deaths than bin Laden?

To be blunt, no, I don't.  He did nothing wrong in terms of basic objective.  I will agree that the strategies that were used were most definitely not the best ones, but at least he wasn't convincing people to slaughter thousands of people for the "sin" of living a different lifestyle.

Wa-kun, Bush found Saddam Hussein right before the 2004 election, and his approval ratings suddenly rocketed. I can only imagine that Obama will find the same positive polling results.

Except that Obama wasn't the one that started this "war."  Personally, I think the only thing that he did that deserves any crediting (in this subject) is that he chose to continue the fighting rather than withdraw the troops, like he originally said he was going to do.  I know his popularity will boost up a little bit, which I think is dumb, but I doubt it will be enough to get him re-elected.  We'll have to wait & see what happens tomorrow and from here on out before I'll believe he has a chance at another 4 years.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2011, 10:22:34 pm »
I doubt bin Laden took pleasure in killing people. Unless you have proof he was a sadist?

How about the videos that HE HIMSELF SENT in which he was singing praise to Allah for the death of the American infidels?
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2011, 10:23:41 pm »
Miria, is the debater in you going crazy right now? ;)

 I hope I'm being respectful to everyone's opinions. I'm trying to be at least, but I'm going to be honest about what I feel. I'm open to hearing other people's opinions, but when it comes to sympathizing with killers, I don't have a lot of room for that.

BTW, just because my icon totes a gun and a skull, that's not a reflection on me, even if it doesn't seem like it at the moment. I am liberal minded, but perhaps not on this subject.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:25:32 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2011, 10:26:17 pm »
I hope I'm being respectful to everyone's opinions. I'm trying to be at least, but I'm going to be honest about what I feel. I'm open to hearing other people's opinions, but when it comes to sympathizing with killers, I don't have a lot of room for that.

Same here.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2011, 10:27:35 pm »
He came out and said that he was responsible for 9-11. To me that is proof enough.

I'm fully aware that Obama is continuing the war, and that's something that I knew wouldn't end when I voted for him. My preferred candidate dropped out, and he actually would provide a solution to getting out of Iraq when asked. Guantanamo Bay was another thing that I knew wouldn't close.

There's a difference between maintaining and starting, but that's something to think about Miria. What's your opinion on Osama Bin Laden's death?
True, but that doesn't make him a sadist.

I already posted my opinion on bin Laden's death here- I'm glad he died because it means that some deaths will be averted. I don't think he deserved to die, but it's better than him being in US custody because he'd be absolutely dehumanized.

I'd rather he had just reformed and tried to make the Middle East better in different ways like supporting human rights and democracy, but that wasn't gonna happen.

So, do you think President Bush deserves to die for leading more to their deaths than bin Laden?

To be blunt, no, I don't.  He did nothing wrong in terms of basic objective.  I will agree that the strategies that were used were most definitely not the best ones, but at least he wasn't convincing people to slaughter thousands of people for the "sin" of living a different lifestyle.
That wasn't why al-Qaeda attacked the US, at least not originally. They wanted us to GTFO of the Middle East.

He wasn't convincing people to slaughter thousands of people for that reason, but he was convincing them to slaughter millions and dehumanize thousands, and I don't care what the reason is- That's not okay.

I doubt bin Laden took pleasure in killing people. Unless you have proof he was a sadist?

How about the videos that HE HIMSELF SENT in which he was singing praise to Allah for the death of the American infidels?
Now there's some proof!

Miria, is the debater in you going crazy right now? ;)

 I hope I'm being respectful to everyone's opinions. I'm trying to be at least, but I'm going to be honest about what I feel. I'm open to hearing other people's opinions, but when it comes to sympathizing with killers, I don't have a lot of room for that.

BTW, just because my icon totes a gun and a skull, that's not a reflection on me, even if it doesn't seem like it at the moment. I am liberal minded, but perhaps not on this subject.

I'm very pleased because this is going way better than my Facebook debates right now. Seriously, you guys are way more mature here than the people on Facebook. Be happy.

I try to be open to others' opinions as well. I'm extremely radical and firm in my beliefs, I know, but that doesn't mean I don't listen to what others have to say.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:31:33 pm by MiriaRose »
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2011, 10:38:33 pm »
Miria, you were the one who brought up the term sadist. I don't think he is, but I think he is someone who was happy when all the people he killed died since they were his enemies. While I am happy Osama is dead, does that make me a sadist? It's the same logic.

I missed your opinion. I guess I didn't look at the name. Personally, I'd rather have him go through trial like Saddam Hussein than die the way he did. The US can most definitely protect someone from being killed, no matter how much they are hated. I would think that all the child rapist and killers living in solitary confinement is proof of that.

Oh, man, it'd be great had he reformed and turned things around, but that wouldn't ever happened. He'd still die for his crimes, and I honestly think that because he had to hide, Al Qaida started taking commands from someone else. Can anyone confirm whether or not Bin Laden was on dialysis? I've heard about it a couple times, but I've never confirmed it.

Stuff like this: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/11/20/graphic-anatomy-of-a-stoning/ makes me angry because of the suffering it causes and, on a more minor level, how biased it is for men over women. It's a description of stoning techniques for adulterers based on the Islamic Penal Code. The link is totally safe and not gory, but the content might bother some.

EDIT: Changed the website since I didn't like the blog it came from.

Miria, I'm trying to be open and not go all "RAWR" on people. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, and something like this event is one that no one will be fully justified with. I'm glad we're proving more civil that your Facebook page right now. :) If I keep editing my posts, I'm just trying to maintain that civility while making my thoughts clear.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:42:59 pm by lychee-twist »
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2011, 10:46:32 pm »
Miria, you were the one who brought up the term sadist. I don't think he is, but I think he is someone who was happy when all the people he killed died since they were his enemies. While I am happy Osama is dead, does that make me a sadist? It's the same logic.
Sorry, I admit I took that a bit far. What I meant was that I didn't think he got pleasure from killing people, but Washougal brought up evidence that he did. Oh well.

Quote
I missed your opinion. I guess I didn't look at the name. Personally, I'd rather have him go through trial like Saddam Hussein than die the way he did. The US can most definitely protect someone from being killed, no matter how much they are hated. I would think that all the child rapist and killers living in solitary confinement is proof of that.
I don't trust trials because the people involved are all biased, but it's certainly better than just killing him. Still, though, I'd rather he be dead than in prison because of how much we'd abuse him. Think of Gitmo, and times that by 10. No one deserves that.

Quote
Oh, man, it'd be great had he reformed and turned things around, but that wouldn't ever happened. He'd still die for his crimes, and I honestly think that because he had to hide, Al Qaida started taking commands from someone else. Can anyone confirm whether or not Bin Laden was on dialysis? I've heard about it a couple times, but I've never confirmed it.
I'm so anti-death penalty it's not even funny, so I don't think he should have died for his crimes had he reformed, but he didn't reform so that's silly to talk about.

I'm pretty sure al-Qaeda was taking commands from someone else, too, but I can't cite it.

Quote
Stuff like this: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/11/20/graphic-anatomy-of-a-stoning/ makes me angry because of the suffering it causes and, on a more minor level, how biased it is for men over women. It's a description of stoning techniques for adulterers based on the Islamic Penal Code. The link is totally safe and not gory, but the content might bother some.

EDIT: Changed the website since I didn't like the blog it came from.
It makes me mad, too. Sharia law in general makes me mad, actually. Actually, law based off of religion makes me mad. Oh dear.

I'd argue that the sexism isn't minor, but it is on a different level. I'm against suffering of all kinds, but that doesn't mean that the people perpetuating it deserve to die. They need to see the error of their ways and reform.
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Offline TheDevilsNightmare

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2011, 11:19:39 pm »
SERIOUS! i LEFT FACEBOOK HOPEFULLY NOT HOPING TO SEE THIS AND YET HERE WE GO THE SAME THING.......

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2011, 11:28:16 pm »
Devil, then probably not the best idea to post here since you're going to get the updates from here on out. Do what I do next time and just ignore it.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2011, 11:28:52 pm »
SERIOUS! i LEFT FACEBOOK HOPEFULLY NOT HOPING TO SEE THIS AND YET HERE WE GO THE SAME THING.......
So don't click on the link? It's not hard to ignore it.
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Offline TheDevilsNightmare

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2011, 11:36:18 pm »
9/11 was planned so 1 guy dead makes no difference

Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2011, 12:08:34 am »
I feel bad for him ' A '
We should meet someday. Something tells me you can't fall victim to my dark influence. This thought interests me greatly.
RIP dude
Read: Rest in pieces... :D
this is a type of satisfaction that I imagine a lot of Jews had upon hearing that Hitler died from hiding in his bunker.
Better!
There is a large difference between leading a willing army to war than an unprovoked and unnecessary act, but, yes, I do think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, etc. do need to be tried as war criminals. Let the courts decide whether or not they are guilty.
It's only a crime if you lose. "Mission Accomplished" aren't quite the words of a loser. :/
9/11 was planned so 1 guy dead makes no difference
So I suppose his life didn't make much of a difference either...

This wouldn't be news if that were the case. The guy deliberately attacked this country, destroyed lives, rattled the minds of millions, made us overly aware of muslim communities here in America and most importantly made it very clear to me what kind of powers and stupidity this world has to offer. MacArthur was right. There is no security. It's all opportunity and depending on who and where you are, that can make all the difference in the world.

I just hope people don't relax over this news. This is exactly the sort of thing that causes us to drop our guard long enough for another sneak attack. Don't buy it.
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2011, 12:11:54 am »
When the troops do come home permanently, then I will most definitely be celebrating in the streets with everyone on TV. Until that time, however, I'm going to stay inside where it's warm.

I agree with your last statement, Daemon. This type of action won't go without ticking a lot of people off. I wish life was a lot more simple and people's minds a lot more accepting to different things.

Skeptical, happy bliss wearing off. Skeptical solemn reflection coming in, now.

EDIT: To nitpick my original post, it should say "Hitler died while hiding in his bunker". The original wording sounds like hiding in a bunker was the cause of his death, not his suicide by gunshot (or cyanide pill according to the Soviets).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 12:14:31 am by lychee-twist »
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Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2011, 12:33:33 am »
When the troops do come home permanently, then I will most definitely be celebrating in the streets with everyone on TV.
When the troops come home permanently, I won't be around anymore. My phantom will remain but not much else will survive that kind of disaster. It brings the frontline to our borders. I'm not Homeland Security, US VISIT, the National Guard and have no business being either of the three. Still, it would reverse our economic situation if we were to use that strategy and have countries pay US to be their allies for once. I'm still trying to weigh the impact but so far it all seems good.
I wish life was a lot more simple and people's minds a lot more accepting to different things.
Can't afford it. Humans have an unremarkably low capacity for acceptance of outside ideas because the majority are trained to be between good-for-nothing and doomed. The vile nature of human scum keeps this world balanced in clockwork(so get back in line, sheeple!). All's well ends well. :)
The original wording sounds like hiding in a bunker was the cause of his death
It might as well be. He was trapped in his own walls of futility only to savor his impending doom(and the constant reminders from a few nasty girls...Giggity...). Something tells me if he could tell us what he thought about his life his last words would have been "it was worth it." >.>'
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 02:12:49 am »
just going to say one thing about everything other than this topic in general... i'm saying this about all things relating to 911 and all this bloody war CRAP that has been going on for MUCH too long. when it comes to this and the bush shiz and the obama vote "raising" and the crazed religion believers (both American-igion and Osama-igion) and the oil scandal/myth and the troops that died for nothing/something or the facts/lies that we hear about after the year 2001.

Let. It. Be.

but of course people will debate and rant and scream in the name of whomever seems "preferable", and of course there will be the very ignorant and arrogant people arguing back and forth about nonsense, and although many speak out their whole hearted honest opinion, those will be very much missed and looked over or bashed for being "un-american" or "stupid" or "wtf??? you some terrorist??".

I believe that somehow, by not bringing up these kind of things, after they should have been dead YEARS ago, and NOT doing anything about it, it's just a waste of my time! I can't do much, other than not vote for someone who will continue this and vote for someone else who will promise me better things... but what is this country other than just empty promises? if you can't do anything other than complain about events that happen, or gossip more about these things (because face it people, we don't know the whole truth! as if the government or even the news would tell us the whole story! and even if they did, why should we base all our facts on our own bias news. we weren't even there!)

what i'm saying is. if you can only complain about things that have long been dead, and either it's impossible to change anything, or it IS possible to DO something, then do not feed the flames of the oiled up chat, and put out that flame with strong waves of action! (wow that was cheesy lol)

Do. Not Rant.

p.s. i love these kind of discussions, but i don't think this is worth talking about. just like hitler's "death". it's just not news. it's history (oh god not another pun) *end of rant* XD

Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2011, 06:04:24 am »
I'm pretty darn pleased.

Osama would never reform.  He was a radical follower of Sayyid Qutb.  He more or less believed that any Muslim that did not adhere to a strict interpretation of Islam was in fact "not a Muslim" and could be killed as an apostate.  If he had changed his mind on his interpretation, he would have been killed long before we had a chance to get at him.

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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2011, 07:58:01 am »
I'm pretty darn pleased.

Osama would never reform.  He was a radical follower of Sayyid Qutb.  He more or less believed that any Muslim that did not adhere to a strict interpretation of Islam was in fact "not a Muslim" and could be killed as an apostate.  If he had changed his mind on his interpretation, he would have been killed long before we had a chance to get at him.

Or if they had two brain cells to rub together, they would have leaked his location to the Americans... then he could at least serve the cause as a martyr who was shot down in a blaze of glory.

(No, I'm not seriously suggesting he had reconsidered. He'd been trapped in his own world for years, surrounded by followers who enthusiastically agreed with any and all of his paranoid fantasies of righteousness... look at what that did to Glenn Beck. Crazy doesn't get more in touch with reality when it's locked away in a closet, it just festers and gets worse.)

~~~

I think there's a fundamental misconception in how we're trying to combat the terrorists. We imagine that they'll be discouraged by hearing that we can kill them, or cause them suffering. They revel in it. To us, bin Laden is a symbol of how they failed. To them, bin Laden is someone who defied all of America for nearly ten years, finally becoming a glorious martyr. Someone who "made a difference", perverted and unholy as it may have been. And to those who are despondent, he's the symbol of hope that they can also "make a difference" before they die - because they're convinced that they'll die a dog's death anyway, so they might as well go down fighting.

We don't win by convincing terrorists that we can make them die. We win by giving tomorrow's terrorists something to live for: The hope that there's a way to make life better for their families without dying gloriously. The hope that they have a way to make a difference other than by making the "oppressors" bleed until they go away. And we don't do that by hooting and hollering about how great we are and how we can crush anyone who opposes us.

Should we be glad that a murderer is dead? Your mileage may vary, probably in tandem with how you feel about the death penalty. Should we treat the occasion like a birthday party? Only if we want to raise up more of the same hatred that spawned him.
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Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2011, 10:31:13 am »
I see no reason why both of those goals could not be accomplished:  kill terrorists in an intelligent manner, taking care not to harm innocent people, while working to put an end to the situations that serve as a recruiting tool for terrorist organizations.

Of course, I would be pleased with arresting and jailing terrorists, too . . but they're not likely to allow themselves to be arrested.

I do sort of wonder how much these guys truly wanted to be martyrs -- if the claim that a woman was used to as a human shield by one of them is indeed true.

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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2011, 10:44:56 am »
Both me and my bro feel the same way about this. I happy that he his dead but I slightly disturbed with myself and our society that we are so happy that he is dead. Don't get he wrong he deserved it..... but is it ever right to celebrate someone's death. He did have a family

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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2011, 11:25:20 am »
^^ Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that killing them is wrong per se. That's up to everyone's individual conscience to decide, not me.

All I'm saying is that the gloating doesn't win us any friends. Especially not when Muslims constantly hear themselves conflated with the terrorists - it risks creating the perception that the gloating is also directed at them.


^ I'm going to hell for it, but that perverse juxtaposition made me laugh pretty hard - thank you. (^_^)
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Offline Jacob_Blackfeather

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2011, 11:45:53 am »
I am jumping for joy if you don't remember maybe i should remind you, he sent two planes into the twin towers and then the pentagon, 3000 people were killed, it was 9/11 I am glad he is dead.

Offline Jacob_Blackfeather

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2011, 12:13:46 pm »
Not to mention one plane hurtled into the earth killing the most brave people. Flight 93, they were true heroes.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2011, 12:32:08 pm »
I am jumping for joy if you don't remember maybe i should remind you, he sent two planes into the twin towers and then the pentagon, 3000 people were killed, it was 9/11 I am glad he is dead.

You don't say? Thank you for reminding me - it's not like when it happened I was living and working a few miles away, took supplies to the eerily-empty shelters, lost people I knew, hardly knew anyone who hadn't lost someone, or anything like that. :-X

Feel whatever you want to; it's your right. But your assumptions about me are grossly unwarranted, as is your perceived apprehension of this subject.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 12:36:21 pm by randompvg »
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Offline Jacob_Blackfeather

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2011, 12:33:03 pm »
I am not just telling you I am telling everyone, a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2011, 12:43:18 pm »
I am not just telling you I am telling everyone, a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.

I'm sure they all appreciate your efforts.
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Offline Jacob_Blackfeather

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2011, 12:44:15 pm »
I don't know it's mostly my oppion and I know people dislike that fact that I am happy he is dead.

Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2011, 12:47:29 pm »
Its awesome that a terrorist will not be able to hurt anyone ever again.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court, or a chance to gain some info.  No saying if he would have talked, but you never know, esp since from the sound of the compound, he wasn't used to "roughing it".
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Offline TurboSaiyanJason

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 01:29:55 pm »
Its awesome that a terrorist will not be able to hurt anyone ever again.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court, or a chance to gain some info.  No saying if he would have talked, but you never know, esp since from the sound of the compound, he wasn't used to "roughing it".

^ Neither was Sadaam Hussein when they found him in a hole in the dessert.

All I can say is...the 10 year toothache is finally gone. Let's hope that no one's foolish enough to make it grow back. I'm sure on 9/11/2011, the 10th anniversary of "the suckerpunch that shook thew world," there'll be masses with their heads held high for once.
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Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 02:07:10 pm »
randompvg, I understand what you are saying although I feel that any Muslim that sees Americans cheering the death of bin Laden as being anti-Muslim is most likely someone that has already made up their mind about Americans. It's not like people are cheering the death of Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) or something.

Osama bin Laden was pretty damn unpopular in the Muslim world.  I imagine there are plenty of Muslims that are extremely happy to find out that Osama bin Laden is dead. Osama bin Laden was a political figure, and not a religious one.  He held no clerical position.  He was rebuked many times for issuing fatwas when had no such authority to do so.  The only safe haven he could find was in the most repressive regimes.

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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 05:07:03 pm »
but of course people will debate and rant and scream in the name of whomever seems "preferable", and of course there will be the very ignorant and arrogant people arguing back and forth about nonsense, and although many speak out their whole hearted honest opinion, those will be very much missed and looked over or bashed for being "un-american" or "stupid" or "wtf??? you some terrorist??".
Why is discourse bad? If someone disagrees with you and they have a good reason for it, then why shouldn't they be allowed to say something? I've found that discourse over controversial subjects such as this are very educational.

Btw, debate =/= ranting and screaming. That's an argument. I've had good, educational debates on these forums. None of the insults have happened on here to my knowledge. That's why we're allowed to have these threads, because we try to be civil.

Quote
p.s. i love these kind of discussions, but i don't think this is worth talking about. just like hitler's "death". it's just not news. it's history (oh god not another pun) *end of rant* XD
. . Except Hitler's death happened 66 years ago and the Nazis had basically lost the war at that point anyway. This is news. It happened recently and it's very relevant to current politics.

It's at least more newsworthy than the royal wedding.

I'm pretty darn pleased.

Osama would never reform.  He was a radical follower of Sayyid Qutb.  He more or less believed that any Muslim that did not adhere to a strict interpretation of Islam was in fact "not a Muslim" and could be killed as an apostate.  If he had changed his mind on his interpretation, he would have been killed long before we had a chance to get at him.
I'm not saying he would reform. It was just wishful thinking.

Both me and my bro feel the same way about this. I happy that he his dead but I slightly disturbed with myself and our society that we are so happy that he is dead. Don't get he wrong he deserved it..... but is it ever right to celebrate someone's death. He did have a family

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I freaking love that macro.

All I'm saying is that the gloating doesn't win us any friends. Especially not when Muslims constantly hear themselves conflated with the terrorists - it risks creating the perception that the gloating is also directed at them.
You know the hate Muslims get here in America? It actually really hurts Christians in the Middle East, because the Muslims there assume that they're all like the Christians in America, aka Muslim-haters. So the Christians in the Middle East are discriminated against.

Can you say: Cycle of hate?

I am jumping for joy if you don't remember maybe i should remind you, he sent two planes into the twin towers and then the pentagon, 3000 people were killed, it was 9/11 I am glad he is dead.
So? The invasion of Iraq caused over a million Iraqi civilians to die. The Afghanistan occupation is CONTINUING to kill thousands of Afghani civilians to die. 3,000 lives isn't anything on the scale of what we've done in retaliation.

But still: No one deserves to be killed for anything they've done. Who are you to say who can and can't live?

Not to mention one plane hurtled into the earth killing the most brave people. Flight 93, they were true heroes.
So they were brave for being in a situation that they were forced into? Sorry, I'm not quite sure how they're brave for dying in a plane hijaking. It's tragic, obviously, but how does that make them brave? I doubt any of them would have gone on that plane had they known what was going to happen. They didn't choose to become martyrs.

Its awesome that a terrorist will not be able to hurt anyone ever again.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court, or a chance to gain some info.  No saying if he would have talked, but you never know, esp since from the sound of the compound, he wasn't used to "roughing it".
tbh I don't think he'd care what they had to say to him. He didn't like us much.

I'm glad they didn't capture him alive, because as I said before, they'd treat him worse than they treat Gitmo prisoners. No one should have to go through that; I don't care if they're Mother Theresa or Joseph Mengele.

Also, if we obtained any info from torture it's highly likely it wouldn't be true.

Its awesome that a terrorist will not be able to hurt anyone ever again.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court, or a chance to gain some info.  No saying if he would have talked, but you never know, esp since from the sound of the compound, he wasn't used to "roughing it".

^ Neither was Sadaam Hussein when they found him in a hole in the dessert.

All I can say is...the 10 year toothache is finally gone. Let's hope that no one's foolish enough to make it grow back. I'm sure on 9/11/2011, the 10th anniversary of "the suckerpunch that shook thew world," there'll be masses with their heads held high for once.
I'm pretty sure that someone is gonna replace him soon. Al-Qaeda's probably been expecting this for a while.

They don't care whether it's pointless or whether the United States might crush them (considering it's a losing battle on our side, they don't have to worry much). They are willing to die for what they believe in. That's the mentality they have. As randompvg pointed out earlier, he's a martyr now. They'll see bin Laden and want to be like him, to die for his cause.

That's why they blow themselves up. Because that's how devoted they are to what they believe in.

It's like the Vietnam War, really. Ho Chi Min said to the Americans that even though they only killed 1 American soldier for every 9 Vietnamese soldier the Americans killed, they would still win because they were devoted to their cause. And they won.
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Offline soundninja12

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2011, 05:10:37 pm »
All I have to say:
I think it's a good thing he's dead, but I think it's revolting that people are going about dancing in the street.
Stop celebrating death unless it's in a way that's very Dia De Los Muertos way.
:/
I feel like it's nice that there will be so many averted deaths, but I also feel like it's disheartening to see so many people partying about something so morbid.
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Offline Gryffinclaw Princess

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2011, 05:25:11 pm »
Personal opinion right here.
So what? He's dead. I thought he had died a long time ago and forgot all about him. I bet you half of America did, too.

Celebrating death? That makes you no better than Osama himself.
He's dead, get over it. Don't go cheering and creating a big deal about it. He shouldn't be remembered or anything. Yeah, he's dead but we have more important matters. He's one flea on the mutt's back that was getting over powered by the rest of them. The bigger problems are more important.
Yeah, he killed a lot of people but that's war. We killed a lot of people, too. Men followed their dreams and their beliefs just like we do and we killed them because they attacked us. No one is in the wrong. We are all on the right side in our own minds. You think Hitler thought he was doing wrong? He thought he was purifying the world and we simply disagreed with him. It's not who is right or wrong, it's who is stronger that will survive. How do you really know God isn't on the side of our enemies? Because you want to believe he is on ours. The truth is we don't know who is right and who is wrong. The only truth we know is that there is no Peace without War and there is no War without Death. It's not something to celebrate. The only people who should be 'happy' about death is those who were directly effected by it.

Call me whatever you want but I can't even tell you the year he bombed us. I don't remember anything. I went through school like a normal kid. I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.

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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2011, 05:35:31 pm »
The US is now in the assassination business. That's gonna suck.

Perhaps this will affect Pakistani politics, in a good way.

Miria, really, how bad are the prisoners treated in Gitmo? Head and shoulders better than Daniel Pearl was treated.

My boss said WE didn't take Osama prisoner, as Americans the world over would be subject to kidnappings and worse until he was released.

This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2011, 05:46:47 pm »
Off subject here but bear with me for a sec

We anime/video game fans often get treated like little kids when people hear that we watch cartoons.

Yet here we are having a discussion/debate on this subject, its a bit heated but we are being civil with each other (per forum conduct), and I think we can agree we all have different experiences that affect our view on the subject, and we are entitled to them.

Yeah we are the "kids".

 
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2011, 06:01:45 pm »
The US is now in the assassination business. That's gonna suck.

Perhaps this will affect Pakistani politics, in a good way.

Miria, really, how bad are the prisoners treated in Gitmo? Head and shoulders better than Daniel Pearl was treated.

My boss said WE didn't take Osama prisoner, as Americans the world over would be subject to kidnappings and worse until he was released.

This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.
The US has been in the assassination business for as long as the Statue of Liberty can remember.

I'd argue being captured and killed after nine days is far better than being tortured and abused for several years, but that isn't the point. Violence doesn't solve for violence, death does not solve for death, and dehumanization does not solve for dehumanization.

As you said, bin Laden's death won't bring anyone back. Not Pearl or the 9/11 victims or American soldiers.

Off subject here but bear with me for a sec

We anime/video game fans often get treated like little kids when people hear that we watch cartoons.

Yet here we are having a discussion/debate on this subject, its a bit heated but we are being civil with each other (per forum conduct), and I think we can agree we all have different experiences that affect our view on the subject, and we are entitled to them.

Yeah we are the "kids".

 
Haha, I agree so much. I mentioned in another thread that when some other teens and I went to protest a tea party rally, the tea partiers assumed because we're teenagers we don't know what we're talking about and just listen to what our parents/teachers tell us. It's an extreme example, but I've noticed a lot of adults have this mentality even if they're not as vocal about it- That teens don't know nothin', that our impressionable young minds have been brainwashed and that they, the jaded and worldly adult, must show us the light!

Sometimes, the children act like adults and the adults act like children.
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2011, 06:03:42 pm »
Personal opinion right here.
So what? He's dead. I thought he had died a long time ago and forgot all about him. I bet you half of America did, too.

Celebrating death? That makes you no better than Osama himself.
He's dead, get over it. Don't go cheering and creating a big deal about it. He shouldn't be remembered or anything. Yeah, he's dead but we have more important matters. He's one flea on the mutt's back that was getting over powered by the rest of them. The bigger problems are more important.
Yeah, he killed a lot of people but that's war. We killed a lot of people, too. Men followed their dreams and their beliefs just like we do and we killed them because they attacked us. No one is in the wrong. We are all on the right side in our own minds. You think Hitler thought he was doing wrong? He thought he was purifying the world and we simply disagreed with him. It's not who is right or wrong, it's who is stronger that will survive. How do you really know God isn't on the side of our enemies? Because you want to believe he is on ours. The truth is we don't know who is right and who is wrong. The only truth we know is that there is no Peace without War and there is no War without Death. It's not something to celebrate. The only people who should be 'happy' about death is those who were directly effected by it.

Call me whatever you want but I can't even tell you the year he bombed us. I don't remember anything. I went through school like a normal kid. I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.

my point exactly <3 that's why i don't bother talking about this kinda stuff and i move on -w-

Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2011, 06:09:46 pm »
Quote
The US has been in the assassination business for as long as the Statue of Liberty can remember.

No, it has not. It is actually against federal law to assassinate "foreign leaders" And Saddam was killed by Iraqis, not US. I think we would have held onto him for longer to at least ask where his WMD went. ( I think Syria and Libya)

FYI, most adults are completely disengaged. They may be full of opinions, but they are empty. They are just brainwashed. People who actually GO to a tea party rally, are some of the ones who are engaged. Now we have some on the left, and some on the right instead of on the left only. And being older adults, they may not have participated in any rallies of any sort their entire adult lives. Unlike the 60s where it was 18-22 year olds taking over universities, such as Oregon and Berkeley.

Also, I probably look at most people as if they are morons. Or about to kill them, not sure, as I don't see myself except when near mirrors.

But then I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 06:17:16 pm by jaybug »
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2011, 06:48:34 pm »
Quote
The US has been in the assassination business for as long as the Statue of Liberty can remember.

No, it has not. It is actually against federal law to assassinate "foreign leaders" And Saddam was killed by Iraqis, not US. I think we would have held onto him for longer to at least ask where his WMD went. ( I think Syria and Libya)
Doesn't mean we didn't do it covertly. See South/Central America. And the Middle East. We've been covertly setting up puppet governments since at least the early 1900s.

Castro has been on our hit list since the missile crisis, iirc, maybe before.

Also, the WMDs were a bs excuse. Bush wanted to invade Iraq the day he got into office.

Quote
FYI, most adults are completely disengaged. They may be full of opinions, but they are empty. They are just brainwashed. People who actually GO to a tea party rally, are some of the ones who are engaged. Now we have some on the left, and some on the right instead of on the left only. And being older adults, they may not have participated in any rallies of any sort their entire adult lives. Unlike the 60s where it was 18-22 year olds taking over universities, such as Oregon and Berkeley.

Also, I probably look at most people as if they are morons. Or about to kill them, not sure, as I don't see myself except when near mirrors.

But then I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.
I already know they're disengaged. It doesn't mean that they don't have that elitist attitude that they know more than us because they're older.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 07:04:52 pm by MiriaRose »
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2011, 07:35:05 pm »
Setting up puppet governments is not assassination. The Samozas of Nicaragua were from Ohio. And guess what, it was always the Democrats who set these things up. Samoza, 1930s. Shah if Iran, 60s. Philippines, same same.

Nixon went to China.

Castro is not on a hit list, he's on our hit list with an "S" in front of hit.

Panama was once the 4th province of Columbia. Just because they did nothing with it due to the Darien jungle at the border with the rest of Columbia makes no never mind. That was done to build the canal, without paying a bunch of greedy despots for the rights, or so T.R. reasoned, see Path Between the Seas by David McCullough, great book.

Did we kill Hitler? If we would have killed anyone, it would have been him.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2011, 09:07:12 pm »
Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.

Hell, the only reason I'm a democrat is so I can vote in primaries if I happen to be in a state where they're closed. I'd rather be a Peace and Freedom member or an independent.

Quote
all the CIA's assassination plots had either failed or been abandoned
whoopsie-doo. This was pre-1975, btw. source.

And here's an article about Bush revoking Executive Order 66 12333, which made it illegal for the CIA to target someone for assassination.

We shouldn't have killed anybody. Like I said, we're not in any position to judge who deserves to live or die, even Hitler. Doesn't judging who does make us just like him?
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2011, 09:29:22 pm »
Oh heck no. Killing Ted Bundy does not make us Ted Bundy, or Jeffery Dahmer, or any other serial killer, or mass murderer. It just lets us sleep at night. I'm all for expanding the death penalty for serial rapists too. AND if the crime is so bad we have to lock them up for too long also. Being in prison for so long it doesn't serve anyone. Especially if they ever get out. What can they do with their lives, and are they fit to be around non-felons? Either kill them , or get them out.

The only reason I mention Democrats, is because it twigs your little ear, and you speak from the far left Miria. lol that's an evil lol by the by.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2011, 09:31:42 pm »
Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.

^ Respect, man. I can't stand people who will blindly follow something just because it's their party or who they voted for. I voted for Obama, and it is my duty as an American to question his decision, especially if I disagree with them. Checks and balances, thank you.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2011, 09:40:35 pm »
Oh heck no. Killing Ted Bundy does not make us Ted Bundy, or Jeffery Dahmer, or any other serial killer, or mass murderer. It just lets us sleep at night. I'm all for expanding the death penalty for serial rapists too. AND if the crime is so bad we have to lock them up for too long also. Being in prison for so long it doesn't serve anyone. Especially if they ever get out. What can they do with their lives, and are they fit to be around non-felons? Either kill them , or get them out.
I like rehabilitation better than punishment, especially seeing as how there have been various studies done that show punishment doesn't work. Positive and negative reinforcement do.

Like I said: Who are we to say who is fit to be around who?

As for how we're like mass murderers? We are, because we think its our responsibility to choose who lives and who dies. Maybe it's for different reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that we think we're so superior for whatever reason that we get to say who deserves to have a life.

Wasn't it Jefferson who wrote that everyone has a right to life? Criminals are still human. Murderers, rapists, etc. are still human. The fact that they've done something atrocious does not change that fact.

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The only reason I mention Democrats, is because it twigs your little ear, and you speak from the far left Miria. lol that's an evil lol by the by.
Haha, the party isn't even leftist. They're conservatives on the political compass, but they're more left than the republicans so everyone calls them leftists.

I'll admit to being on the faaaar left, though. I'm not expecting everyone else to be, though. That'll come with time.  ;)

Whyyy do people think I excuse things because Democrats do them? I can't think of any time I've done that in five to six years, much less on this board.
it is my duty as an American to question his decision, especially if I disagree with them. Checks and balances, thank you.
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2011, 09:47:41 pm »
I find it difficult to form opinions on Osama bin Laden's death because there's so little information currently available about what exactly happened. It doesn't help that I'm extremely reluctant to believe anything the government tells me about any important military action.

I'm also not sure that it matters so much that he's dead. It's not like he didn't have lieutenants. It's not like there aren't other charismatic extremists who feel that the US is systemically oppressive and immoral.
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Offline Gryffinclaw Princess

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2011, 09:51:46 pm »
Bit off topic here...

Just thought I would point out that the Death Penalty is more expensive than just letting them live in jail until they die. All the states but one with the death penalty use lethal injection (the one other has not opted for li but also has no current executions because all other forms of dp have been looked down upon for one reason or another that I won't get into here). To get the four chemicals needed for an execution one needs to spend a lot of money. These aren't your average chemicals (except the saline they run through the lines after each of the other three to clean them) and fetch a high price. Plus, there can easily be issues with li which can harm the convict and cause need for another dose or execution 'ceremony.'

So in all actuality it's cheaper for our country to keep them locked up then actually kill them. :)

As for criminals in general. Some people just make bad choices. Someone can fall asleep at the wheel, get in a crash, have someone die because of that, and they end up in jail. Yes, some people deserve to be in there but others don't really. Everyone in prison (except the obviously insane people) is a normal person. They are human and act just like everyone else in the world. But they are just a bit messed up. Most don't feel sorry for what they did and some even agree they deserve to be where they are.
Both my parents are Correction Officers and work in a medium security prison with everyone from robbers to rapist to murderers. I hear so many stories and Miria is right. They are all just humans and act exactly like you and I do when you talk to them. If you didn't read their records you would never guess half of them did what they did.

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2011, 10:02:47 pm »
So in all actuality it's cheaper for our country to keep them locked up then actually kill them. :)

It's really cheaper to keep someone alive for 20-30 years than it is to inject them with a chemical?  If that's the case, we should have the death penalty be a shot in the head with a bullet.  Get a box of them for $30 or so (depending on the gun) and you can kill off a bunch of people on death row. ;D  Or how about this?  Grind them up into hamburger meat and serve it to other inmates.  Not only are you saving money on killing products, but you're saving money on food expenses!  (Of course I'm kidding about this idea; I'm not that sick!)

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Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2011, 10:08:37 pm »
The death penalty isn't just expensive because of chemicals, but because we have a massive appeals process that must precede every execution. That's paying for public defenders, prosecutors, judges, using up court resources, possibly going over forensic evidence again... And it's all vital, because the re-trial of a decent number of people with new technologies (ie DNA testing) has led to exonerations. It's those costs that make it more expensive than plain ol' room and board. And I don't want to live in a nation that will let itself callously abandon that expensive judicial process for thrift and expediency. That's terrifying.

And to sort of drag this back to topic, the fact that we have the world's greatest war machine is terrifying enough already.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2011, 10:32:43 pm »
Both my parents are Correction Officers and work in a medium security prison with everyone from robbers to rapist to murderers. I hear so many stories

Oh hey my mom was a corrections officer.

Oh the stories!, and they end like "and they are being released next month"
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Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2011, 10:33:23 pm »
a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.
11.Sept.01 never forget.
1.May.11, the avatar of terror has been destroyed.
Mission ****ing accomplished! :D
I know people dislike that fact that I am happy he is dead.
10 years. 10 long years and you're telling me people are displeased with the fact that you finally have some of this horrible weight off of you? [Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal attack]

I remember that morning pretty clearly. I woke early 6AMish, sat at this same desk reading the news and freaked when I saw the first article. I left a message to McAlister that his life was in danger and to leave the trade center as soon as possible. When I left I was run over by a dumb driver[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate inflammatory language] on my way to high school. I was late. After gym I went to my world history class and they tossed a TV into the room just in time so we could watch live footage of the 2nd plane ramming the tower. During the last class of the day we held a minute of silence for the dead. I had no family onboard the planes or in the towers but I can't even describe how everything that day changed me. How appropriate that I saw the events during a world history class. It changed my world forever. McAlister got out in time but was traumatized since it all happened right in front of him. I haven't talked to him since that day.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court
I really wanted this for a while but we have a problem: Who would want to defend such a man? It wasn't going to happen. Add in the facts that Bush made it clear he would start the search for Bin Laden and he later admitted he just wasn't as focused on him as he said he was. During campaigns Obama made it clear that he would end the search and KILL Bin Laden. Believe me, I would have wanted to see a trial just as bad as you do but from the very beginning, it completely lost relevance. You know how if you get so many felonies you become a dead man walking? It's a lot like that: a point of no return. Our legal system no longer mattered when the threat of terror became a consuming force in every one of our lives.

Osama got the credit he wanted for such a horrible deed and became the avatar of terror. As consequence, we finally destroyed him. You see, the big deal isn't that the man is dead. The big deal is that the face of terror has been annihilated. Think about it. I can tell only very few of you can understand this(and you're awesome) so for those of you that can't, imagine organized terror without a figurehead. We will endure whatever possible retaliations come of this(if any). We are America, the sleeping giant. We are blessed with a ridiculously destructive power and are not meant to be disturbed out of fear that we may use it.
I've found that discourse over controversial subjects such as this are very educational.
Don't worry about it. Some people are simply one voice - one way. This is how cults and hate groups start(So what are you waiting for? Enter now for your chance to win!). :D
I freaking love that macro.
This is now my new wallpaper. Thanks.
Celebrating death?
Happy Deathday? ;)
That makes you no better than Osama himself.
Wrong. It does make me better than Osama. In fact, anyone that celebrates the death of that horrible figurehead and manages not to terrorize and kill 3000+ innocent American lives during their lifetime is better than Osama.
I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.
[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal comments]
I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.
I wish I was still young enough to know everything. That was the best part of my life and it's been gone for years. :/
This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.
It brought back my horribly darkened heart and turned a hopeless situation into a fighting chance. I feel a LOT better knowing that action has been taken and the damned have finally faced their execution. I'm all in favor of the death penalty. Bin Laden was clearly guilty as hell and I'm okay with his execution. He was not a man that could be rehabilitated. I'm convinced the death penalty does a better job of saving more lives than it destroys. I'm sure several Christians will agree with me. Remember, if it weren't for capitol punishment, we'd have no Easter. >.>'

This is all I'm going to say about this topic for a while. For once I'm happy and I want to remain as such for as long as possible.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed several instances of inappropriate content]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 03:37:14 pm by JeffT »
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Magi: You'll die.
Me: I don't believe that.

Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2011, 10:46:46 pm »
EDIT: not even gonna bother.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 10:52:35 pm by MiriaRose »
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Offline Jacob_Blackfeather

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2011, 11:57:49 pm »
a lot of people have forgotten, I am trying to get them to remember.
11.Sept.01 never forget.
1.May.11, the avatar of terror has been destroyed.
Mission ****ing accomplished! :D
I know people dislike that fact that I am happy he is dead.
10 years. 10 long years and you're telling me people are displeased with the fact that you finally have some of this horrible weight off of you? [Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal attack]

I remember that morning pretty clearly. I woke early 6AMish, sat at this same desk reading the news and freaked when I saw the first article. I left a message to McAlister that his life was in danger and to leave the trade center as soon as possible. When I left I was run over by a dumb driver[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate inflammatory language] on my way to high school. I was late. After gym I went to my world history class and they tossed a TV into the room just in time so we could watch live footage of the 2nd plane ramming the tower. During the last class of the day we held a minute of silence for the dead. I had no family onboard the planes or in the towers but I can't even describe how everything that day changed me. How appropriate that I saw the events during a world history class. It changed my world forever. McAlister got out in time but was traumatized since it all happened right in front of him. I haven't talked to him since that day.
In a way its too bad that they were unable to capture him alive because I am sure there are victims who would have liked to have their say in court
I really wanted this for a while but we have a problem: Who would want to defend such a man? It wasn't going to happen. Add in the facts that Bush made it clear he would start the search for Bin Laden and he later admitted he just wasn't as focused on him as he said he was. During campaigns Obama made it clear that he would end the search and KILL Bin Laden. Believe me, I would have wanted to see a trial just as bad as you do but from the very beginning, it completely lost relevance. You know how if you get so many felonies you become a dead man walking? It's a lot like that: a point of no return. Our legal system no longer mattered when the threat of terror became a consuming force in every one of our lives.

Osama got the credit he wanted for such a horrible deed and became the avatar of terror. As consequence, we finally destroyed him. You see, the big deal isn't that the man is dead. The big deal is that the face of terror has been annihilated. Think about it. I can tell only very few of you can understand this(and you're awesome) so for those of you that can't, imagine organized terror without a figurehead. We will endure whatever possible retaliations come of this(if any). We are America, the sleeping giant. We are blessed with a ridiculously destructive power and are not meant to be disturbed out of fear that we may use it.
I've found that discourse over controversial subjects such as this are very educational.
Don't worry about it. Some people are simply one voice - one way. This is how cults and hate groups start(So what are you waiting for? Enter now for your chance to win!). :D
I freaking love that macro.
This is now my new wallpaper. Thanks.
Celebrating death?
Happy Deathday? ;)
That makes you no better than Osama himself.
Wrong. It does make me better than Osama. In fact, anyone that celebrates the death of that horrible figurehead and manages not to terrorize and kill 3000+ innocent American lives during their lifetime is better than Osama.
I was raised around death and grew up in a military family. We don't want your praise for killing people and it's disgusting to label those we kill when we are no better than they are. Our soldiers are killers and murderers just like Osama and his men. If you talk down about them then you talk down about us as well.
[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed personal comments]
I was one of those way too smart kids way back when too.
I wish I was still young enough to know everything. That was the best part of my life and it's been gone for years. :/
This doesn't bring anyone back whom we lost 9/11.
It brought back my horribly darkened heart and turned a hopeless situation into a fighting chance. I feel a LOT better knowing that action has been taken and the damned have finally faced their execution. I'm all in favor of the death penalty. Bin Laden was clearly guilty as hell and I'm okay with his execution. He was not a man that could be rehabilitated. I'm convinced the death penalty does a better job of saving more lives than it destroys. I'm sure several Christians will agree with me. Remember, if it weren't for capitol punishment, we'd have no Easter. >.>'

This is all I'm going to say about this topic for a while. For once I'm happy and I want to remain as such for as long as possible.

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed several instances of inappropriate content]

I love you right now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 03:37:16 pm by JeffT »

Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2011, 11:59:56 pm »
oh miria! please try! T_T i have tried to stand up to these kind of people but nobody has got the ... uh.. well i probably wouldn't bother either cuz they aren't worth my time, but....


someone please please PLEASE do it... i really don't know how to express my thoughts and feelings correctly online... someone just HAS to... i can't stand watching this ... person insulting people all throughout the forums.. it's driving a lot of us insane, and i am probably one of the few who got the horrid chance of meeting them in real life. please someone just defend us already from him!


and i'm NOT talking about osama... IF you couldn't get the hint already!

(and all of you who don't stand up and say something, i'm ashamed!)

@jacob: we will talk later <_<


Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2011, 12:21:58 am »
Luv: None of the rhetoric seems all that cruel so far. No need for the melodrama.

Daemon: If Osama went to a US civilian court (highly unlikely) he would've had a lawyer for sure. Unless he refused his right to one, but then he might be judged unfit to make that decision. Miranda is complicated! But necessary and I like that we have it. Anyway, people probably would've fought for the opportunity. Lawyers are this weird breed who are supposed to believe in the law above all else, so when it comes to something that might revolutionize or shake the practice of law, people who really love it will jump on the chance to participate. Or just 'cause they'd revel in controversy/the opportunity to make a name for themselves.
Of course, this is assuming he wouldn't have ended up in a military tribunal or one of the international human rights courts.

The argument that capital punishment is okay because we love Jesus is a weird one, since no one is generally all that happy about excellent people being killed with extreme prejudice. I'm not seeing how these two situations relate at all.

Lastly, I'm confused. You feel safer we've because the figurehead of one organization is dead? As far as I understand, terrorism is pretty grass roots.

Sorry for not going through and pulling quotes like I should. I'm lazy. :I
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 12:22:48 am by Malaria »
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2011, 12:27:46 am »
If it makes a difference in this conversation, my boyfriend told me that the reason Bin Laden's body was dumped at sea was it followed the Muslim tradition and ceremony that a person is buried within 24 hours of their death. They dumped him at sea because it followed with that tradition and prevented a land burial becoming a martyr's tomb and inspiration to people who wish harm on others.

That's my understanding at least. If you want my now 24 hour opinion on the matter with people's reactions, it's this: No one is right. No one is wrong. This simply is. The only way you would probably be wrong is if you assumed that the war is over because of this event. No matter what happens, keep this moment in your mind when voting next year.

But according to the billboards around the world, the world's going to end on the 21st anyways so it doesn't matter anyways. *shrug* Party on the 22nd!
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2011, 12:51:53 am »
Also, I found this thanks to reddit. This is a picture of Obama, Biden, Clinton, and staff waiting as the mission is underway. I thought that anyone who took an interest with this thread might find it interesting. It's a large picture so I'll post the link.
http://i.imgur.com/tjRP1.jpg
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 01:02:06 am by lychee-twist »
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Offline Griff_the_dragoon

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2011, 01:16:25 am »
@dameon force: just a quick question... were you loved as a child???

China bound!!!

Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2011, 01:38:50 am »
I hate poking in this thread so soon but something is bothering me now.
They dumped him at sea because it followed with that tradition and prevented a land burial becoming a martyr's tomb and inspiration to people who wish harm on others.
That's the smart reason. Of course, knowing some of the killers I've met in my day, their brains are comparable to being laced with a few pounds of C4. A smart thought would probably destroy them. The order obviously came from a much higher rank to do a sea funeral. To me it doesn't matter who did the dirty work let alone who gave the order. The only question I have is why was this done so ridiculously fast? Does the public have visual confirmation? No. It's been more than 24 hours and we still don't have it. Something is seriously wrong here and I have the feeling it's going to be covered up just like the last blunder.

.......

We have to be on high alert right now. Without question. >.<'
{Death mode} D3 Started 17.May.2011 02:20
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Me: I'm putting a stop to this. Now.
Magi: You'll die.
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Offline Griff_the_dragoon

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2011, 02:23:41 am »
yup unloved it is ok girls you dont have to fear something like this

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Offline Griff_the_dragoon

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« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 04:40:18 am by Griff_the_dragoon »

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Offline StarryShay

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2011, 06:46:48 am »


but seriously, debate is good, but try to remember to respect the opinions of others, guys. ~

Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2011, 07:22:35 am »
 I am a bit miffed that they picked Geronimo as his code name. Its too good a name for him, and insulting to native americans.
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Offline TheDevilsNightmare

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2011, 12:04:05 pm »
Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 12:04:51 pm by TheDevilsNightmare »

Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2011, 12:25:42 pm »
Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...
Not all of us believe the evidence put forth by the Zeitgeist people. Not all conspiracy theories are convincing, not all "experts" know what they're talking about, and some of them are crackpots who just happened to get degrees. Any number of other architects or engineers can explain why the pressure, super-heating, and type of structure of the building caused the bottom-to-top collapse you just described.
There's a pretty big difference between having a healthy mistrust of your government and mindlessly believing all the anti-government propaganda.

Jaz: I think it was meant more in the high-adrenaline, jumping off a cliff sense.
But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.


I was watching last night's Daily Show just now, and Jon Stewart made what I thougt was an excellent point. For a long time now, Osama bin Laden has been the face of the Arab and Muslim worlds in the US. With him gone, and the focus steadily shifting to democratic revolutions, the stereotypes in the US of what it means to be Arab or Muslim should shift too. I'd rather we look at that part of the world and see people's movements than hatred.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2011, 12:54:08 pm »
oh miria! please try! T_T i have tried to stand up to these kind of people but nobody has got the ... uh.. well i probably wouldn't bother either cuz they aren't worth my time, but....


someone please please PLEASE do it... i really don't know how to express my thoughts and feelings correctly online... someone just HAS to... i can't stand watching this ... person insulting people all throughout the forums.. it's driving a lot of us insane, and i am probably one of the few who got the horrid chance of meeting them in real life. please someone just defend us already from him!


and i'm NOT talking about osama... IF you couldn't get the hint already!

(and all of you who don't stand up and say something, i'm ashamed!)

@jacob: we will talk later <_<


Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post. But I get your point, and totally agree.

but seriously, debate is good, but try to remember to respect the opinions of others, guys. ~
thiiis. I'm not gonna reply to someone who will pick and choose which arguments of mine to rebut and ignore the rest, and I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't have debate without calling other people names.

Sorry, but I like debate on these forums because they're the type I normally only get at tournaments.

Wow a lot of paragraphs on this forum(heck am not gonna read so many). Well you guys celebrate osama death but if you dont know America was part of the 9/11 attack.  Bush and the government planned 9/11. Just look at all the twin towers they collapse from the bottom when it was hit from the top. Architects and Engineers even explained this years ago.. no need for me to get on this post anymore it be pointless. If you don't realize it was a inside job...
I haven't seen any good evidence supporting the Zeitgeist theory, so I really don't see any reason to believe it. Also, physics shows, as Malaria brought up before, that the bottom collapse makes sense.

Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed in Iraq and the tens of thousands of Afghani civilians the US and NATO have killed in Afghanistan. And basically every war where we've specifically targeted civilians (Dresden bombing in WWII, Mylai Massacre in Vietnam, etc.). If you think that the US doesn't specifically target civilians, then go to bed, read some Zinn, and come back when you've educated yourself because even I suck at what I'm 'supposed' to do.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2011, 02:15:46 pm »
Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed

Wow, way to over-exaggerate the numbers there, Miria.  However, you do make a somewhat good point.  I don't believe that we've been going out of our way to target innocent civilians.  Civilians do get hurt and/or killed in wars that occur in cities and towns; they always have.  I know that there have been some cases in history that speak to the contrary (you've actually named a couple of good examples), but I haven't heard anything that would support the idea that we've been doing that at all during the war on terrorism.  We've made mistakes, sure, and had mishaps, too; that's not the same thing as intentionally targeting people who are just trying to live their lives.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2011, 02:16:50 pm »
Jaz: I think it was meant more in the high-adrenaline, jumping off a cliff sense.

I read online that it was because he was so hard to catch for so long, but considering that after capture he  became a folk hero, not really a good compairison for a terrorist

But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.
Oh do I know it, my family is native american.  My great grand mother didn't get citizenship until she was 25, when naitive americans were granted citizenship.  My grandmother has her native name as her licence plate, white elk woman, and a guy asked her if she belonged to a lodge.
Mine is whispering wind btw :)
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2011, 02:33:40 pm »
Also, just gonna point out the million Iraqi civilians the US and NATO have killed

Wow, way to over-exaggerate the numbers there, Miria.
You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

Quote
However, you do make a somewhat good point.  I don't believe that we've been going out of our way to target innocent civilians.
Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out .

Quote
Civilians do get hurt and/or killed in wars that occur in cities and towns; they always have.  I know that there have been some cases in history that speak to the contrary (you've actually named a couple of good examples), but I haven't heard anything that would support the idea that we've been doing that at all during the war on terrorism.  We've made mistakes, sure, and had mishaps, too; that's not the same thing as intentionally targeting people who are just trying to live their lives.
Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Dresden and the Mylai massacre were the two I can name off the top of my head. Here's another story.

Actually, you know what, I'm sick of the triggers that are coming up by reading these. I know it's Wikipedia but this has plenty of sources on direct deaths and cruelty by US and NATO forces in the Middle East.

Read The People's History of the United States. I know the title sounds like a communist country from the early 1980s, but it has plenty examples of US forces doing atrocities to civilians.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

The examples I have cited are not outliers. This is the status quo. We have the privilege of not having to hear about these things unless we choose to.

But America, as a rule, sucks really awfully at giving First Nations their due.
Oh do I know it, my family is native american.  My great grand mother didn't get citizenship until she was 25, when naitive americans were granted citizenship.  My grandmother has her native name as her licence plate, white elk woman, and a guy asked her if she belonged to a lodge.
Mine is whispering wind btw :)
Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2011, 02:46:55 pm »
You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?

Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Yeah, the Vietnam War had a lot of examples of such horrible acts.  It also has a lot of examples of soldiers trying to fight that.  My grandfather was one of these people.  He and some of his troupe members convinced their senior officers that events like this shouldn't have been allowed, and they disciplined any soldiers found doing such things.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

Actually, I have, and the study had some important results, so I see it as a good thing, BECAUSE it was so ugly.

Native Americans

Don't care.  I don't see the relevance in this case.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2011, 03:02:02 pm »
Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.
???
Native Names a joke?
Please don't judge all Native Americans by some you have talked to.
Every family is different.  I am sure some Native Americans don't have 2 names. In some cases parents pick the native names for their childern, in addition to a birth name that apears on legal documents.  Esp since the names tend to get picked once the child is older so its a name that suits them.
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Offline JeffT

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2011, 03:40:50 pm »
Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post.

We did receive the report earlier, and I have now edited an earlier post accordingly. I apologize for the delay--a few moderators were carefully reviewing the entire thread and discussing it.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2011, 04:06:48 pm »
You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.
Any proof of that? Any?

Quote
Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?
Uhm. I'm buying it because I've shown you many instances of American war crimes, none of which you've answered. You're just saying it's made up to make us look worse, but you provide no evidence as to how.

Quote
Like I said, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you want me to point out the stories of US marines raping women with rifles in Vietnam and then stabbing their breasts with machetes? Do you want me to point out that when asked about the Mylai massacre a Vietnam veteran who spoke to my America in the 1960s class said that sort of thing happened all the time? I can't cite these for obvious reasons, but seriously, to claim that we don't intentionally target civilians is naive.

Yeah, the Vietnam War had a lot of examples of such horrible acts.  It also has a lot of examples of soldiers trying to fight that.  My grandfather was one of these people.  He and some of his troupe members convinced their senior officers that events like this shouldn't have been allowed, and they disciplined any soldiers found doing such things.
My stepfather is a Vietnam veteran. According to him and other Vietnam vets I've spoken to, quite a few war crimes were ordered to happen by senior officers, like the Mylai Massacre.

I've also shown you reports of how the investigations of these crimes aren't as rigourous as they should be.

Quote
Ever heard of the Stanford Prison experiment? Look that up, too. It shows that human beings, when given this sort of power over people, will abuse it.

Actually, I have, and the study had some important results, so I see it as a good thing, BECAUSE it was so ugly.
It did, and you're ignoring it. I'm showing you that human beings will act like this when given a position of this sort of power, but you seem to be acting like Americans won't, unless I have your position on this wrong?

Uhhh Native American names, whut. From what I've heard from Native Americans, those are usually jokes parodying what stereotypes that white people have about them. Most Native Americans have 'normal' names that can look pretty WASPy at times.
???
Native Names a joke?
Please don't judge all Native Americans by some you have talked to.
Every family is different.  I am sure some Native Americans don't have 2 names. In some cases parents pick the native names for their childern, in addition to a birth name that apears on legal documents.  Esp since the names tend to get picked once the child is older so its a name that suits them.
Sorry, you're right, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions there. I apologize for making assumptions.

Not gonna feed a troll. If he isn't trolling, then I'm not gonna reply to someone who can't debate without feeling the need to insult their opponents OR break the rules of the Kumo forums.

Considering I've seen friends' posts censored because they called certain people out for being trolls, I'd rather just do what I'm supposed to for once and report a post.

We did receive the report earlier, and I have now edited an earlier post accordingly. I apologize for the delay--a few moderators were carefully reviewing the entire thread and discussing it.
Thank you, and it's fine. I was worried that you guys hadn't gotten the report or something, but I'm glad you did.

I'm also glad you're reviewing the thread and discussing it, because it's certainly strayed quite a bit.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 04:11:48 pm by MiriaRose »
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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2011, 05:09:33 pm »
You have no idea how much I wish I wasn't exaggerating. Citation. Citation 2.

They're saying "may" and I think they're just trying to make us sound worse than we are.

Except we have been. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis. Check out

I'm not buying it, and I see no reason why I ought to believe that one.  How do we know that this wasn't made up for the sake of making things look worse?

Lancet (one of the world's top medical journals) and Johns Hopkins (one of the world's top medical research schools) are out to get us as well as ORB (Brit polling agency)? We're in trouble.  :-\

One oversimplification I often hear when scientific data is discussed is that unless someone says YES IT HAPPENED I HAS ABSOLUTE PROOF they don't really mean it. Scientists and academicians will almost never make unqualified statements because they're careful about not wanting to assert that very high probability (p<0.05) is the same as material fact. In my book, that makes them a lot more reliable, not less.
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Offline Jinx

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2011, 05:24:39 pm »
personally I'm proud we finally got him. granted they got his son and wife in the open fire as well which is...sadish but idk I'm pretty happy.

I watched a few deferent news programs after I heard about it and saw republican leaders praising obama and I was like "WOOHOOO OBAMA FOR THE WIN!!!" ....haha

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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2011, 06:56:11 pm »
There was so much I was going to say last night after I got home, but I was too beat to stay up for it. And then... stuff impinged the oscillator here. So whatever I had to say went out the window. lol

But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.

I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.

I won't discuss Obama's chances for 2012 here beyond what I already stated. Needs another thread.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 07:07:15 pm »
There was so much I was going to say last night after I got home, but I was too beat to stay up for it. And then... stuff impinged the oscillator here. So whatever I had to say went out the window. lol
Yeah, this thread grew a lot last night.

Quote
But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.
Did you not check out my links? I'm not just talking about al-Qaeda's killings of civilians. We've done terrible things as well and killed plenty of innocent civilians.

Quote
I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.
Americans and other Western peoples aren't the only people in the world. Bin Laden's family were human beings just like us. It doesn't matter if they wanted to kill other human beings.
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 07:34:05 pm »
Quote from: jaybug
But, it's easier to pad the civilian body count if you use them as human shields, just as Osama's last act did. Did you forget how the "insurgents" used the entire town of Fallujah as hostages, a city of 100,000 people. Hoping the US would do the standard thinga dn bomb the whole city to ashes. We could also have starved them out. But instead we sent in Marines to root them out. Kills more of US, and can't help but kill civilians, but if there were enough civilians who were not terrorist supporters, they would have themselves done something about being taken hostage, like resist.
woah woah what
We do not blame victims of violence for the violence being perpetrated on them.
Especially in this particular context. Resistance=definitely being killed. Not resisting=maybe surviving. I would never expect them to sacrifice themselves for an American invading force, made up of individuals they wouldn't know from Adam.

But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics. It also ignores the fact there wouldn't be such a high bodycount if we hadn't decided to invade another country and liberate it from its relative stability and low quality of life.

Quote
I am not sorry for killing Osama's family members, this is not Randy Weaver and a BATF entrapment set-up. This is not the Branch Davidian compound. This is a family who based their daily lives on killing Americans and other Western peoples.
I think it was less "Americans and other Western peoples" and more "everyone who isn't us exactly." Which I think is worth keeping in mind, because India, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other decidedly non-Western countries have all seen plenty of death, too. This is not an ethnocentric problem that's focused on our part of the world. Besides, how do we know that his family had any thing to do with his work? The traditionalist nature of his campaign makes me feel like it's sort of unlikely that his family members did much for or against the cause. (Traditional cultures and the oppression of women, etc.) Maybe they were tacit supporters, but it's an uncomfortable moral stretch to say we should be executing all tacit supporters of people we think are worth killing.

And I'm going to guess by your earlier comment about the population of Fallujah that you might say something like, "If his family members believed he was doing wrong orchestrating all this murder, they should have taken it upon themselves to kill him." But that's a bit like saying that all Americans are responsible for the dismantling of nuclear warheads in order to prevent the widespread death of people overseas.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 07:34:39 pm by Malaria »
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2011, 07:35:25 pm »
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2011, 07:38:52 pm »
ilu Malaria. Seriously.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2011, 07:43:28 pm »
Bush 43 got most of bin Laden's family out of the US in 2003, for their safety, or did you forget that? Yeah, his siblings, and cousins were living here. They did not have to leave, they were of legal status.

Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.

Quote
But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics

Good God, what far left rag do you get your misinformation from? And how many soldiers have you spat on today? Or as in my case, sailors?

So resistance is futile? Go tell that to the partisans of non-Vichy France. They resisted. Not all died. They also got a lot of downed allied airmen away from the Germans.

Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2011, 07:49:11 pm »
I take it you've never lived in one of those areas ever.

When your family is in danger, when you're in danger, you don't say anything. You don't go to the police because you're afraid of what they'll do to your loved ones if you do.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2011, 08:06:27 pm »
Bush 43 got most of bin Laden's family out of the US in 2003, for their safety, or did you forget that? Yeah, his siblings, and cousins were living here. They did not have to leave, they were of legal status.
I wasn't aware, actually! I have no idea what that has to do with the matter at hand, but it's good to learn something new anyway.
Although thinking back, it does make a lot of sense that some of them would be in the US. He was from a rather upright, moneyed family, after all.

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Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.
Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

Quote
Quote
But all this ignores the point that, historically, the American military has targeted mostly-civilian areas for reprisals or just as good military tactics
Good God, what far left rag do you get your misinformation from? And how many soldiers have you spat on today? Or as in my case, sailors?
While I'm reluctant to say that soldiers don't have any responsibility in deaths, fault ultimately lies with authority. I have a lot of respect for the individuals that try to walk the line between individual morality and their duty. What I'm really trying to say here is that sometimes soldiers do awful things because people in positions of authority do really awful stuff for expediency sometimes. Any smart tactician will tell you that if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

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So resistance is futile? Go tell that to the partisans of non-Vichy France. They resisted. Not all died. They also got a lot of downed allied airmen away from the Germans.
The French Resistance and random poor people in Fallujah had very different contexts. The French Resistance were fighting against murderous invaders in order to be able to live in peace. The citizens of Fallujah were living in relative peace and safety before a bunch of murderous invaders came along and inspired a bunch of their countrymen (and probably some community members and loved ones) to take up arms.

Quote
Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.
I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

I have no idea how a person would go about kicking a gang out, either. I imagine that would take some pretty mighty community organizing. And again, then they'd just be somewhere else.

Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow? Even the ones that saw the American military as violent invaders? Which they were and are, strictly speaking. It's not like any of them asked us to bring a war on their heads.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 08:08:28 pm by Malaria »
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2011, 09:19:04 pm »
Quote
Quote
Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.
Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

This is a thread I started, you got on this, I hadn't yet responded. And why should appeals go on forever? Just do a better job of conviction than say Texas does.

Did you also know that they can shoot you if you disobey a, and here's the catch, lawful order during time of war? Your commanding officer can do this, no need to go bother anyone higher up.

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if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

Close, materiel is made in a factory. Bomb the factory. If you do it at night, most people are not at work. THe idea is to detroy the factory, causing civilian casualties only stiffens their resolve. This applies until one side decides to commit atrocities of war, such as the Bataan Death March, rape camps, the Blitz or Battle of Britain if you prefer. Or have good information the enemy may develop nuclear weapons very soon.

Ever heard of "Broken Window Syndrome"? Fix the broken windows. Call the cops! It is your duty, and obligation to fight entropy!

Quote
I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate comment] Do you think a gang will take over Dunthorpe, Laurelhurst, Albina, Beverly Hills, Bel Air? Or even Ladd's Addition? NW Portland? It really doesn't take that much to keep them from thinking about moving in, it's much harder to get them out. And it's near impossible if you allow one to run rampant. It makes the place seem like a haven for those who seek shelter from the law.

It's also good to do everything you can if you live in an apartment that the landlord is allowing to slip into slum, to use every tool at your disposal, including alerting the TV news.

But if you like meth, nevermind.

Quote
Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow?

Ever heard of the term "stool pigeon"? Tell the people who will be glad to clean your neighborhood for you. Taking up arms yourself should be a last resort.

I can understand, even if I do not like, the citizens of Fallujah not doing much of anything, after having a guy like Saddam in power for so long, and always living in fear that someday a knock on the door in the dead of night would come for you. Sure makes it easier to take a town hostage by using the same tactics.

Keeping your head down may keep you alive, but it also degrades you as a human. That's living like rats, not people.

[Edited by JeffT, moderator]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 09:49:46 pm by JeffT »
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Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2011, 09:19:40 pm »
I must have missed something.  How did bin Laden's family get into this?  Doesn't he have a couple hundred brothers and sisters or something ridiculous?  Or are we talking his immediate family, i.e. wife and children?  Did some of his family members die when the compound was attacked?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[7] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(b)(i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(b)(iv). Article 8(2)(b)(iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)(b)(iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)(b)(iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
(b) the anticipated military advantage;
(c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).

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Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2011, 10:07:23 pm »
@ Malaria, sorry about the inappropriate comment that was deleted, that was unnecessary, even if I thought you to be too glib. Thanks Jeff.

Reppy, yes, one if his wives was there. She might have been shot in the leg. I don't think she was the one he used as a human shield at the last moment. Two sons were also killed. If I read right there were 6 Seals and 22 al queda there. I believe back in '03 a niece and nephew were in America going to college. They left because their name was bin Laden. Feared reprisal attacks. That'd be like being named George Hitler back in WWII.
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2011, 03:25:36 am »
Quote
Also, will you let your neighborhood turn into a slum without doing anything about it? Or let gangsters take it over? Sit down, shut up and you won't get hurt? I will not live like that, ever.
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I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?
i kinda find that offensive. i used to live in a shady neighborhood back in los angeles, and my family wasn't rich nor well off, just barely made it, but cuz my parents worked hard, we moved to a better place. my dad was practically dirt poor when he was growing up, his mother worked herself to death practically (sunup to sundown) and constantly hearing stuff from my dad saying that maybe i shouldn't speak so low about the poor before i even KNOW how it is to BE poor.

just cuz they are poor doesn't mean that it makes the neighborhood bad. it's the rich mafias and drug dealers and gangs that make the neighborhood bad!

maybe you should get the rich to give these poor familes a better home instead of hogging up all the cash and skipping out on some of those taxes >_> i really hate people who are middle class who seem to think that as well. middle class isn't even middle class anymore, it's on the verge of bankruptcy and relying on whatever you can, and probably in debt!

sorry but i really had to say something about that.. it really irks me when people start bringing the poor into the picture! cuz even rich kids become gang leaders and drug dealers! it's not just the poor!  

« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 01:49:26 am by luvan1me »

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2011, 02:44:28 pm »
^ A very good point.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.

Sounds like a personal problem.  I wouldn't have hesitated.  Then again, in Washington, if the police are called for a domestic disturbance like that, the police would HAVE to arrest someone... unless that's just a Washougal law.

I should look that up for sure...

Either way, I would have called the cops.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2011, 03:12:03 pm »
^ A very good point.

And this is coming from someone who has lived in situations where there were gangsters and drug dealers various times. We used to live next to the local meth dealer. Everyone in the neighborhood was afraid of him and no one would call the cops when he was screaming at his wife at one am in the morning because we were all afraid.

Sounds like a personal problem.  I wouldn't have hesitated.  Then again, in Washington, if the police are called for a domestic disturbance like that, the police would HAVE to arrest someone... unless that's just a Washougal law.

I should look that up for sure...

Either way, I would have called the cops.
It's not a personal problem. Like I said, you've never lived in that situation before so it's hard for you to say what you'd do when if you did call the police, the people you love would be at risk.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2011, 03:44:20 pm »
Well, that'd make it easier for me to not hesitate.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2011, 06:55:35 pm »
Interesting Salon editorial here.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2011, 08:18:14 pm »
I agree with them. We're kind of huge hypocrites (although that isn't such a shock).
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2011, 09:38:03 pm »
A little late on the matter, but boy, did you guys watch the Daily Show and The Colbert Report on the 2nd? Holy cow. What a shock that was. John Stewart was waaaay happier than I thought he would be while Colbert actually did some truly legitimate reporting in his own way. The touch with the dusty balloons was a good one.

I was just surprised that Colbert was the more cerebral of the two. Stewart himself in that episode said he was way too close to this story to adequately report on it. I give him lots of credit for acknowledging that.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2011, 09:44:38 pm »
Wow. He must be very young or something. We've been wanting to kick someone's but since we tucked tail and ran out of Viet Nam. We've been itchin' for a fight, far too badly. WE finally got what we wanted. At least people my age, and probably just guys, who have also never been to any other country, unless they were in the service, and we seem to be quieter about this.

TO me "USA! USA!" has been pathetic since just after WE beat the Russians at Lake Placid back in 1980. I guess I got over it. But I knew it as jingoism, and have always been taught to avoid it, as it is a bad thing to have.

But that article reads as if written by the "Blame America" crowd. I don't like that either, it gets my back up. But then it is hard for me to say I'm sorry too. I don't feel as if this thinking will help America make better foreign policy going forward, but always keeps incriminating America over OUR past ef-ups.

I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation. Sorry Lychee, that;s awful glib, but I am not well-brained enough to fix it better today. It's been too long of 12 hours days here. Sumimasen.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2011, 09:55:06 pm »
Except we're still making those f-ups because we aren't holding people responsible for them.  :-\
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #106 on: May 04, 2011, 10:35:24 pm »
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Really, we should expand the death penalty. And not have them serve 20 years + on death row. THat's just nuts.
Appeals process. Necessary to make sure we're not executing innocent people. Makes executions more expensive than a few decades of room and board. We've been over this.

This is a thread I started, you got on this, I hadn't yet responded. And why should appeals go on forever? Just do a better job of conviction than say Texas does.
I don't know enough about the specific court mechanics of any particular state with the death penalty to be able to answer that in a precise way. However, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say it's because courts are always, always slow because of the sheer amount of cases they're expected to handle, and because death row cases are probably pretty low priority. It's not like those particular criminals are going anywhere.

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Did you also know that they can shoot you if you disobey a, and here's the catch, lawful order during time of war? Your commanding officer can do this, no need to go bother anyone higher up.
Yes. That's why I've stressed war atrocities as decisions made by military authorities, rather than individual soldiers, and deferred to the moral difficulty of choosing between military duty and personal ethics. Which doesn't explain why you'd defer to this, since your argument so far has been that almost certain death in pursuit of the "right thing" is an excellent thing to do.

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if you want to break an army, you cut off their supplies. Supplies are provided by a factory town? Burn it down.

Close, materiel is made in a factory. Bomb the factory. If you do it at night, most people are not at work. THe idea is to detroy the factory, causing civilian casualties only stiffens their resolve. This applies until one side decides to commit atrocities of war, such as the Bataan Death March, rape camps, the Blitz or Battle of Britain if you prefer. Or have good information the enemy may develop nuclear weapons very soon.
I don't think that "the bad guys did it first" is justification for abandoning the moral commitment not to kill civilians. I can't see the benefit in responding to war atrocities with escalated war atrocities, which is why I can't see the justification for abandoning the kind of low-casualty tactics you described above for the massacres the US military actually committed.

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I'm not sure how to stop a neighborhood from becoming a slum. Remove the poor people so they can live in crappy conditions elsewhere?

[Edit by JeffT, moderator: Removed inappropriate comment] Do you think a gang will take over Dunthorpe, Laurelhurst, Albina, Beverly Hills, Bel Air? Or even Ladd's Addition? NW Portland? It really doesn't take that much to keep them from thinking about moving in, it's much harder to get them out. And it's near impossible if you allow one to run rampant. It makes the place seem like a haven for those who seek shelter from the law.
I didn't get to read what you wrote, but I responded the way I did because I thought your original premise was treating the symptoms of poverty glibly. Protecting just your own home only displaces the problem. In this case, the problem is a fundamentally inhumane distribution of wealth, cemented by a specific culture of generational poverty. I find the "out of sight, out of mind" attitude about this issue cold and somewhat absurd. That is probably why you found my response glib. And I am totally gonna bring that point of view back around to the subject at hand! Eventually. I'm sure. Whenever we get to discussing the nature of terrorism/people who commit terrorist acts, which I'm sure is inevitable.

My understanding of why gangs don't move into well-off neighborhoods is two reasons: (a)police are more likely to actually do something in a "better" neighborhood and (b)the bulk of crime is perpetrated by people in poverty on other people in poverty. The gang already has to be a major social problem before it starts moving into better neighborhoods, at which point it's time to start addressing the underlying issues, 'cause I seriously doubt brute force is gonna move them.

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It's also good to do everything you can if you live in an apartment that the landlord is allowing to slip into slum, to use every tool at your disposal, including alerting the TV news.

But if you like meth, nevermind.
No, I don't want to live in a neighborhood dominated by drugs, but I'd still worry about where those people would go otherwise. Getting people evicted from your apartment complex doesn't change the fact that somewhere, someone else's home is being ruined by drugs. I don't see that as a solution.

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Are you trying to that the people of Fallujah should have displaced the people pointing guns at them somehow?
Ever heard of the term "stool pigeon"? Tell the people who will be glad to clean your neighborhood for you. Taking up arms yourself should be a last resort.
I think that tactic assumes a lot about the particular social context of the people of Fallujah that doesn't necessarily apply. I don't know an awful lot about Iraqi culture, so I'd be reluctant to assume that that's something that would even seem like an option for them. Especially since the people you think they should've been tattling on were countrymen, possibly men from their own community, who spoke the same language and traded in the same ideologies that they did. I dunno about you, but I trust the familiar with guns a lot more than the unfamiliar with guns.

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I can understand, even if I do not like, the citizens of Fallujah not doing much of anything, after having a guy like Saddam in power for so long, and always living in fear that someday a knock on the door in the dead of night would come for you. Sure makes it easier to take a town hostage by using the same tactics.

Keeping your head down may keep you alive, but it also degrades you as a human. That's living like rats, not people.
Different nations and cultures have different ideas of what it means to be a person. I reject the idea that everyone should have to live by our standards of civic duty in order to be fully realized, self-respecting people. Living in a totalitarian regime, struggling with resource scarcity and violence, ideological freedom is rarely most people's first priority. It's some people's, and all the power to them. But it doesn't make their fellows, who work hard to keep their families fed, sheltered, educated and safe, any less like people.

I'm saying this as a first generation American by way of Soviet Ukraine.

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I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation.
I don't think he mentioned anything about being Jewish being part of his glee, but that might've been underlying. He seemed to ascribe most of it to be being a New Yorker. And hating terrorism.
Being Jewish myself, that never really factors into my fear of terrorism, since most terrorists want everyone who isn't them dead. It doesn't really matter if they want people of my ethnicity dead especially, since if they get their way most everyone will be dead anyway. That's why they're scary.
It really helps the not-fearing, too, that while Israel has seen more than its share of attacks, the bulk of terrorist action still takes place in Arab and/or Muslim nations. Or India, which is technically more of a Hindi nation.

Seriously though the big Jewish fear is not "What do we do when the evil people overseas people decide to annihilate us?" it's "What about when it happens here?" I admit that my point of view is pretty much exclusively that of a European Jew, but I feel comfortable ascribing it to just about every Jewish population except the super super super tiny ones in India and China.
aaaand that is not even sort of justifiably on topic, and I apologize. But I don't take it back, because I don't want to be misrepresented. :I

I also don't see how the article blamed America for anything, except absorbing a really unpleasant attitude that makes us look less like righteous crusaders and more like bloodthirsty hawks. Admittedly, I read it really fast.


Luv: My comment was meant to point out that putting up barriers in order to keep out the poor and the accompanying violence doesn't actually resolve the underlying problems, which you outlined in your post.

Lychee: I only watched Stewart's. I'll make sure to check out Colbert's now. Thanks for the tip, dude.


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« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 07:34:15 pm by Malaria »
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Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2011, 12:49:12 am »
I read about Jon Stewart's show. Amazing how being Jewish can color your world view, eh? Especially towards those who seek your complete annihilation. Sorry Lychee, that;s awful glib, but I am not well-brained enough to fix it better today. It's been too long of 12 hours days here. Sumimasen.

That has much less to do with it than his being a New Yorker.

For all that we pointedly learned how precious life is and how horrible it is to let any ideologue with an ax to grind decide it's okay to kill civilians to achieve your goals (NYC's antiwar protests drew millions)... I wouldn't have given that @#$@#% five minutes to live if the SEALs had captured him and dropped him off in Manhattan. It redefines reality when in a city of several million people, virtually everyone has lost someone or knows someone who did. This undoubtedly exposed raw emotions in him that he might have expressed differently, given more time.
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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2011, 01:52:03 am »

Luv: My comment was meant to point out that putting up barriers in order to keep out the poor and the accompanying violence doesn't actually resolve the underlying problems, which you outlined in your post.


i just reread it *facepalm* wow.. reading these at 1am in the morning doesn't help lol heh -D-" but i guess the way you stated it made it sound like you were trying to say that you thought the poor to be a problem and hence moving them elsewhere (lawl) sorry >.<

Offline @random

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2011, 05:22:52 pm »
^^ Just from rereading my reply above, even I can't be sure what I was trying to say. :-[ That's what I get for dashing off a response during a break at work.

Rephrased: For all that NYCers went one way after 9/11 (Life is too precious to let nutjobs treat it as inconsequential compared to their goals) and the TV-watching country went another (Revenge! On someone! We don't care who as long as they kinda look the same!) wrt the Iraq war, we didn't become Buddhas by any means. I wouldn't have given bin Laden five minutes to live if he'd shown up in Manhattan. It doesn't surprise me too much that Jon Stewart's, or any NYCer's, first response would be "&#@% yeah, about time!" on learning of his death, though since then he's been more tempered.

I loved his recent response (which the media completely misunderstood as "Wanna see!") wrt the infamous headshot photo. It was a dark, slightly bitter satire that I'd paraphrase as "You know what? It's a childishly stupid thing to clamor for, but maybe we should start seeing the results of our actions more often, instead of needing to be protected from seeing military coffins coming home or graphic photos of civilians killed by our bombs. The Middle Eastern world sees it all the d@#% time. So why would a graphic photo of bin Laden be that much worse?"

I don't think that "the bad guys did it first" is justification for abandoning the moral commitment not to kill civilians. I can't see the benefit in responding to war atrocities with escalated war atrocities, which is why I can't see the justification for abandoning the kind of low-casualty tactics you described above for the massacres the US military actually committed.

I don't think he mentioned anything about being Jewish being part of his glee, but that might've been underlying. He seemed to ascribe most of it to be being a New Yorker. And hating terrorism.
Being Jewish myself, that never really factors into my fear of terrorism, since most terrorists want everyone who isn't them dead. It doesn't really matter if they want people of my ethnicity dead especially, since if they get their way most everyone will be dead anyway. That's why they're scary.
It really helps the not-fearing, too, that while Israel has seen more than its share of attacks, the bulk of terrorist action still takes place in Arab and/or Muslim nations. Or India, which is technically more of a Hindi nation.

Seriously though the big Jewish fear is not "What do we do when the evil people overseas people decide to annihilate us?" it's "What about when it happens here?"

Your response was win-after-win in my book, but especially these two. Sorry I didn't notice that you'd already addressed the "It's because he's a New Yorker, not because he's a Jew" aspect much more eloquently until afterward.

I couldn't agree more about "They did it first" being a horrible rationale, and I think you raise an interesting point about WWII. Most Americans are blissfully unaware of the atrocities we perpetuated, like Dresden and other cities that we burned as part of the concept of "total war" - i.e. even civilians are valid targets, because they help make war materiel or at least contribute to the economy. All pretty rationalizations aside... that came directly from "They hurt us in a way we don't like, so let's do much worse" on both sides.

Unpleasant historical fact: We (primarily Britain) started bombing cities in a limited fashion as part of "total war". We tried to pinpoint factories, but our tech was far behind and we were so atrociously inaccurate that the Germans thought it was deliberate. They were furious and ordered a reprisal on Coventry which pinpointed the industrial sections of a town pretty much dedicated to making weapons, but killed over a thousand civilians in the process when it set off limited firestorms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz#Before_the_bombing) So we (Britain and the US) started fire-bombing just about every city we could get to that had any factories, perfecting the art of creating massive firestorms that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians before it was over. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Blitz#14_November_1940) Yes, that was "us". Not "them".

Not that it's going to stop someone from saying "You're defending Hitler! He was the only one ever who did anything bad in WWII!", in 3... 2... 1... but I'm absolutely not saying we were the "bad guys" in WWII. Just that almost everyone committed atrocities before it was over. The Geneva Conventions were something of a tacit admission of that, not a declaration of "Stop doing bad things!" to the losers.

When you start justifying stuff with "They did it first", you end up with tens of millions of people dead and everyone's hands soaked in blood.
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Offline Kimiski

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2011, 06:17:05 pm »
I dunno, I'm pretty happy he's dead.

EDIT: For clarification: I'm happy he's dead because it means more deaths will be averted. He wasn't the most 'evil' person ever, and there are people who 'deserve' to die more.

Exactly.

And I'll be more happy when we get OUT of Iraq ALREADY!!! D<


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Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2011, 09:35:40 pm »
^ i second that statement! GET THEM ALL OUT NOW! D:<

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2011, 10:04:53 pm »
The will he left was interesting...

He doesn't want any else of his family to join Alquaida and he doesn't want one of his wifes to get remarried.


Offline luvan1me

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2011, 10:13:38 pm »
^that is interesting >3> *sits and eat popcorn* sorry i can only sit and watch from the sidelines... not so great with arguing about this topic. @.@

Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2011, 10:42:09 pm »
You and me, luv. This went to a level that I am unprepared to go to.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2011, 12:38:01 am »
yeaup ._. hopefully we get some good topic starters >3> any minute now <3<

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2011, 08:49:17 am »
Narunik: That sounds interesting. D'you have a more in-depth link?


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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2011, 04:56:10 pm »
^^ Just from rereading my reply above, even I can't be sure what I was trying to say. :-[ That's what I get for dashing off a response during a break at work.

Been there, still do that.

When you start justifying stuff with "They did it first", you end up with tens of millions of people dead and everyone's hands soaked in blood.

Exactly.  That's why it's best to try forgiveness, except for when it comes to preventing some psychopath from killing more innocent people.  This is where I can understand why people are pissed at Bush, because lots of innocent lives were lost trying to get bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.  I think that if different strategies had been used, there would have been a lot less casualties, and a lot less time would have taken place.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2011, 11:36:50 pm »
I'll work my way backwards.

Total War was a concept invented by the French shortly after the revolution, when Austria, arguably the most powerful nation in Europe declared war against France. France really didn't have much of anything let alone any sort of army left. Cut to end of story, France kicked Austria's butt. How? EVERYONE fought. Men, women, children. Even it all they had was sticks. OR stale old french bread. Maybe some bomb de terres.

@ Malaria, look up Cabrini Green. See what the "War on Poverty" did for the poor. THen look up the science experiment where they put too many rats into too small a living space. Same results.

Also, read Samuel I and II.

Be grateful we and many other nations have signed on to the Geneva Conventions. Otherwise it wars would still be like WWI, except with nukes, not mustard gas. Fun fact, mustard gas and dead bodies are great fertilizer.

We should all be enlightened beings and not need war at all anymore. But...I am only guessing and rationalizing, you would have to ask FDR, and Winston Churchill as well as Hitler why they chose to go after civilians. I feel confident Eisenhower would not have given the go ahead for firestorming Dresden. I do know it was Truman who gave the green light for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let's continue to hope that it is our elected presidents who choose to use such tactics and not our generals and admirals.

I am a former cold warrior. As in I was enlisted during the cold war. Specifically during the Iran Iraq war, while Ronald Reagan was president.

Maybe re-read Animal Farm too.

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 11:40:28 pm by jaybug »
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Offline reppy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2011, 05:09:40 pm »
Hm, I think that last comment may have been meant for someone else?  ^^

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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2011, 10:00:25 am »
@ Malaria, look up Cabrini Green. See what the "War on Poverty" did for the poor. THen look up the science experiment where they put too many rats into too small a living space. Same results.
Obviously not Malaria, but my economics teacher? Loves LBJ, the Great Society, and the War on Poverty. Why? He was impoverished growing up, and the government basically paid for his undergrad education. Like, all of it.

And this is a guy who is a Paul Heyne fanboy, btw. So about the War and Poverty and what it did for the poor, I'd say it did some nice things in the '70s. I'd love it if the government paid for my 37k tuition. Instead, they're only paying for some of it.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #121 on: May 08, 2011, 12:02:07 pm »
I'm visiting relatives who are Deeeeep Southern, some of whom are still Rush Limbaugh fans and others of whom will in that "it's-more-polite-if-you-say-it-quietly" Southern way call Obama racial epithets (if everyone present is white and hasn't openly called them on it in the last day or two).

Even they're happy with Obama's decision not to release the headshot photos, and were disturbed by the birthday-party mentality of celebrating it. From one of them yesterday: "Killing someone may be for the best if it means he won't kill anyone else, but it's not something to be proud of... otherwise, what do we stand for?"
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Offline lychee-twist

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2011, 08:00:16 pm »
^ Hmm. I like that a lot.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2011, 12:06:16 am »
IS it because Osama is dead, gas went down 2 cents?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #124 on: May 10, 2011, 12:26:32 am »
Well that's all he's worth these days. I know some data has been released concerning his last vide- you know what, no. **** that guy. He doesn't deserve any more press. >.>'
{Death mode} D3 Started 17.May.2011 02:20
Magi: What are you doing?
Me: I'm putting a stop to this. Now.
Magi: You'll die.
Me: I don't believe that.

Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #125 on: May 10, 2011, 01:21:48 am »
^ I want my 2 cents back, please...? ;D

Maybe re-read Animal Farm too.

Good book...
My cosplay plans for 2022 (thus far): Vanir from Konosuba
My son's plans this year (thus far): Penguin Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Daioh

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead - SEAL Team - er WHAT ?!?!?
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2011, 03:15:25 pm »
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20061024-71.html



Text:

"Sympathy, therefore, must be ladled toward the German news station N24, which was extremely keen to tell the world about last week's killing of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team Six.

Unfortunately, in its haste to offer a SEAL logo, someone at the station actually mustered the logo of the "Star Trek" Maquis Special Operations Seals Team VI--a bunch of nasty little 24th century terrorists."


« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:16:06 pm by Prinz Eugen »

Offline DaemonForce

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead - SEAL Team - er WHAT ?!?!?
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2011, 03:22:07 pm »
He's dead Jim. -_-'
{Death mode} D3 Started 17.May.2011 02:20
Magi: What are you doing?
Me: I'm putting a stop to this. Now.
Magi: You'll die.
Me: I don't believe that.

Offline jaybug

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2011, 03:47:43 pm »
Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here.
Have Fun

Jay

Offline Prinz Eugen

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2011, 01:21:41 pm »
Okay: Now we KNOW Osama is dead:

... He registered to vote in Chicago ....

( da-dum-tshhh! )