Author Topic: Modern feminism and you!  (Read 39092 times)

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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2010, 08:51:00 pm »
I moved the entire charity auction items from the dealer's hall to the auction site while wearing high heels back in '09, and I'm a male.  That was, well, painfully fun.  I think I was able to do it as well as I did because of some of the various exercising and training techniques I did in sports.
I am seriously impressed. Round of applause, sir. -claps in a circle-

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As for this argument, I will agree that there needs to be a little more respect from the males of our society, but also, there's a high percentage of "feminists" who take things way too far (I'm not saying a majority, but a high enough % that makes all of them look bad).  It's like they find "sexual discrimination" in places where there was none.  Having a feminist for a cousin gives me jurisdiction to say this; she even tried to use caber tossing as an example once.
Respect is certainly a large part of it, but there's also getting rid of entrenched assumptions about what women are and should be based on years of traditional thought that doesn't necessarily hold up under the realities of people's lives.
Squeakiest wheel gets the most grease. Most feminists will tell you they want the pay gap closed and they want rape culture to stop killing women's ability to move around freely and without fear of all men ever. If they've really been paying attention, they'll say they want companies to stop using the "pink it and shrink it" design to supposedly appeal to women, and they want the media to stop encouraging children from the youngest age possible that they need to either be manly men or princesses. What do you think is taking it too far?
I don't know what caber tossing is, so I can't say either way. However, it's possible that your cousin is seeing things this way because it's something that bothers them directly and makes them feel more discriminated against. It really isn't up to you to say whether or not that's taking it too far. If their reasoning is weak, that's different, but being like "no dude I think that's too far therefore it is" is straight up imposing your will on them, and smacks of lack of respect for their opinion.

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Oh, and as for the "sammich" thing, I'll say that to whomever I want to, which is usually a friend that I'm just playing with (until she throws a shoe at me) or a Subway employee, because that'd be her job.  Now I want a sammich.  Hey, I have bologna in the fridge...

"WASHOUGAL!  GO MAKE YOURSELF A SAMMICH!!!"
"Aaron, you sexist jerk..."
"...just do it."
"Okay."
Dude, if I was a Subway employee and you told me to make you a sammich, I would throw a shoe at you. If I thought I could get away it. But seriously, imagine every person who thinks that joke is funny makes it to every female sandwich shop employee they've got working for them. That would be so annoying.
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2010, 08:54:48 pm »
Felix and Washougal: While it's awesome that you guys are comfortable being alt-gendered in your lives, (seriously that is really cool, more people should have that) it isn't something I or many other people have. I still have family I'm accountable to, and as far as they're concerned I'm a straight woman. Even on my very liberal college campus there's awkwardness associated with being agendered and asexual, starting with "That's a real thing?" moving on to "But how do you know?" and the very worst, "That's silly." I want to live in a world where that simply isn't an issue. I won't get that for myself or others by being complacent.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:58:07 pm by Malaria »
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2010, 08:57:32 pm »
I once stumbled upon a hardcore feminist message board -- you know, the ones who call themselves "womyn" -- and it wasn't pretty.  I'd never heard the phrase "I wish I had my son poured down a drain at Planned Parenthood when I had the chance," (or some variation thereof) used so much.  Yikes.
Yeah, these are pretty clearly misandrists. Nothing feminist about them.
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2010, 09:04:52 pm »
I moved the entire charity auction items from the dealer's hall to the auction site while wearing high heels back in '09, and I'm a male.  That was, well, painfully fun.  I think I was able to do it as well as I did because of some of the various exercising and training techniques I did in sports.
I am seriously impressed. Round of applause, sir. -claps in a circle-

Thank you!

I don't know what caber tossing is, so I can't say either way. However, it's possible that your cousin is seeing things this way because it's something that bothers them directly and makes them feel more discriminated against. It really isn't up to you to say whether or not that's taking it too far. If their reasoning is weak, that's different, but being like "no dude I think that's too far therefore it is" is straight up imposing your will on them, and smacks of lack of respect for their opinion.

Caber tossing is the Scottish game where someone carries a large log vertically, then chucks it; similar to the shot put, but a lot harder. 

I think her main reason for the griping is because women use smaller cabers than men do.

Oh, and as for the "sammich" thing, I'll say that to whomever I want to, which is usually a friend that I'm just playing with (until she throws a shoe at me) or a Subway employee, because that'd be her job.  Now I want a sammich.  Hey, I have bologna in the fridge...

"WASHOUGAL!  GO MAKE YOURSELF A SAMMICH!!!"
"Aaron, you sexist jerk..."
"...just do it."
"Okay."
Dude, if I was a Subway employee and you told me to make you a sammich, I would throw a shoe at you. If I thought I could get away it. But seriously, imagine every person who thinks that joke is funny makes it to every female sandwich shop employee they've got working for them. That would be so annoying.

In all honesty, I think what makes the joke funny is the idea of gender superiority being a load of crap and hearing someone with that mindset still in practice.
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Offline reppy

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2010, 09:19:29 pm »
I once stumbled upon a hardcore feminist message board -- you know, the ones who call themselves "womyn" -- and it wasn't pretty.  I'd never heard the phrase "I wish I had my son poured down a drain at Planned Parenthood when I had the chance," (or some variation thereof) used so much.  Yikes.
Yeah, these are pretty clearly misandrists. Nothing feminist about them.

That's the first time I've heard that term.  For what it's worth, they at least self-identified as being feminist, or maybe some variation of that word.

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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2010, 09:24:15 pm »
Thank you!
You're welcome!
If athleticism is a prereq for being good at heels, I am so screwed. -3-

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Caber tossing is the Scottish game where someone carries a large log vertically, then chucks it; similar to the shot put, but a lot harder.  

I think her main reason for the griping is because women use smaller cabers than men do.
That can get really complicated really fast when you have people who aren't clearly and easily defined as one gender or the other. I think I mentioned back in my first post the case of Caster Semenya, who pretty much exemplifies why that might be an issue.

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In all honesty, I think what makes the joke funny is the idea of gender superiority being a load of crap and hearing someone with that mindset still in practice.
That's really why I don't find it funny. People still think like this, and for every few people who chuckle because it's such a silly idea, you get someone who's chuckling 'cause it's so true, and those wimmenz are so silly. It also trivializes the sort of thinking that actually goes into disadvantaging women, and lets people think that because they recognize the ridiculousness of this particular obvious point, they can't be sexist thinkers in other, more subtle ways.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:26:59 pm by Malaria »
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2010, 09:25:57 pm »
I once stumbled upon a hardcore feminist message board -- you know, the ones who call themselves "womyn" -- and it wasn't pretty.  I'd never heard the phrase "I wish I had my son poured down a drain at Planned Parenthood when I had the chance," (or some variation thereof) used so much.  Yikes.
Yeah, these are pretty clearly misandrists. Nothing feminist about them.

That's the first time I've heard that term.  For what it's worth, they at least self-identified as being feminist, or maybe some variation of that word.
Well, if you come out of this thread with nothing else, at least you'll know the fancypants term for man-hating.
They self-identify as feminists, but sane feminists look at them and go ARGH WHY YOU DO THIS. Like I am doing right now. We don't want them in our equality club. 3:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:27:29 pm by Malaria »
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Offline Felix

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2010, 10:48:39 pm »
Felix and Washougal: While it's awesome that you guys are comfortable being alt-gendered in your lives, (seriously that is really cool, more people should have that) it isn't something I or many other people have. I still have family I'm accountable to, and as far as they're concerned I'm a straight woman. Even on my very liberal college campus there's awkwardness associated with being agendered and asexual, starting with "That's a real thing?" moving on to "But how do you know?" and the very worst, "That's silly." I want to live in a world where that simply isn't an issue. I won't get that for myself or others by being complacent.

It always makes me sad when people can't accept other people for who they are. Some people just cling so adamantly to their beliefs that they can't understand.
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2010, 11:46:27 pm »
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Feminism: (n)
- the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
Just want to restate this. Feminism is not about elevating females above males; its goal is to achieve equal opportunity for all sexes and genders. Radical feminists who go beyond this into the realm of 'women are superiour' are just as wrong as men who believe they are better than women.

A discussion on feminist issues in anime and manga would be interesting. It's much harder for me to find female characters that I can respect in anime/manga as opposed to male characters, due to the way the genders are often portrayed.
By radical feminism you mean. . Oh, how do I describe it? Misandrists? Straw feminists? In any case, you don't mean the actual philosophy of radical feminism, right?

EDIT: Oh god I just read the rest of this thread and Malaria brought up my point already. >.> Sorry.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 11:47:33 pm by MiriaRose »
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2010, 01:32:28 am »
So, my original plan was to take the time to fully respond to all of Malaria's initial statements as well as any new lines of discussion that came into play in the mean time, but that's not going to happen with how much action this thread is getting.  Instead, I'm going to try to just cover as much as possible without responding to anything specifically.

First of all, an excellent graphical scale of different hormones and neurotransmitters found in blood samples.  Note that the scaling is logarithmic.  As you can see, there's a huge difference between Males and Females for testosterone, estradiol, and progesterone.  This is the cause of the major stereotypes that men are larger, more muscular, and more emotionally consistent than women, and women have better memory, more "common sense", and are smaller than men.  These are accurate claims when looking at modes, medians, and averages; they are well-supported by neuroscience, psychological science, and chemical biology.

That said, it is entirely inappropriate to judge an individual based on an attribute of a population which that individual identifies with, but it really can't be prevented, yet there comes a point when stereotyping is widely accepted as bad (generally when the legal system and societal moralities dictate as such).  In the communities in which most of the people involved in this discussion currently exist, that is the case.  Certainly, there are other countries and even a few states or small communities here and there where sexism is not considered bad, but most of us operate within environments where it is.  That being the case, activism is really quite counterproductive.  By drawing attention to something like that, you make people think about it, and when people think about sexism, well, they're thinking about it.  If they don't think about it, but they subconsciously know it's bad, sexism is gone.  The fight for sexual equality has made a lot of progress in the last 100 years.  Today, organized activism is trivialized in our society.  The fight for equality is, as has been said, never won, but you can't win unless you fight the enemy.  Sexism against women, as it exists today, is largely caused by women drawing attention to the fact that they are, in fact, women.  Society teaches us to have a strong emotional attachment to our respective genders, and by becoming attached to our genders, we mold ourselves into the stereotypes we claim to be fighting against.  A woman who wear's womens' clothing then complains about being labeled a woman is a hypocrite.  As Ghandi said, "Be the change you wish to see in others."  Stop trying to change the whole world and just change yourself.  Exist within your own appropriate world and the world will change itself upon observing your wellness.

The concept of rape culture is something I really want to address, because it's really something that the feminist movement took and tried to use, and it's been terribly counterproductive.  I fear rape and sexual predation.  While I won't divulge details since it's not something I'm really comfortable discussing publicly, I will say that I have been sexually violated in the past by both women and men, and I can say with utmost confidence that the correspondence of rape and gender has nothing to do with sexual inequality.  Almost all rape is a declaration of false superiority, used by people who are insecure about their value, and wish to enhance their image of self-worth by expressing sexual dominance over another person. Some posted at some point that rape rates are 1 in 3 for women, and 1 and 10 for men.  Those are wrong.  Those might be reported rates, but those are absolutely wrong.  Most rapists threaten their victims to keep them quiet.  Most victims are children.  Most people have mysterious holes in their childhood where there seems to be no memories.  Rape is a disturbing sociopathic act which violates every law and moral imaginable.  It occurs an act of theft, assault, adultery, murder, gluttony, envy, extortion, blackmail, and so much more.  By accusing men, many--if not most--of whom have been sexually abused at some point in their lifetime (whether they're willing to remember it or not) that they are guilty of cultivating rape culture is incredibly destructive to self esteem.  That brings us right back to the actual cause of rape: our society is frequently demoralizing to people who haven't actually done anything wrong, and feminism is a big finger-pointer.

I also want to address the issue of perception here.  I'm not victimized by sexism against women, since I'm not one and have a pretty huge moustache which declares me not one, but I am the victim of sexism, and what I see is something that happens on a very individual level.  The sexism that happens isn't universally held, and therefor it's a personal, case-by-case situation, not something that needs to be addressed to society.  If a population of men is sexist against a woman, that woman should absolutely call them out on it, and since our legal system's bogus, a lot of the time it won't work out too great, such as in goatchild's story.  However, a bogus legal system doesn't equate to sexism.  It equates to a bogus legal system that doesn't always give enough of a damn to uphold law and liberty.  Women get shafted; so do men.  Back to goatchild's story, yeah, her family encountered some sexism in the medical field.  Then they managed to find a place where sexism wasn't an issue.  Again, sexism exists, but it's far from universal.  Equality for women in most industries is pretty balanced.  In the few were it isn't, look at who's running them.  Old white men.  So old white men are sexist.  Well that's nothing new.  The good news is they'll die/retire/get replaced soon, and eventually everyone running everything in the US will have lived their entire lives in societies where sexism was universally considered a bad thing, same with racism, or if you want an example of something that would have gotten me excluded from almost all aspects of society and possibly murdered a few hundred years ago, left-handedness.  Society finds really stupid reasons to exclude people, but would you take me seriously if I started pushing for equal rights for lefties?  I wouldn't take me seriously.  With the exception of a few very backwards states, women in the US have full equal rights.  Far moreso than gays, transexuals, asexuals, hermaphrodites, Latinos, muslims, and other populations.  Women are discriminated against.  That's a real shame, which is why I choose not to discriminate against women, and I'm in full support of anyone else who chooses not to discriminate against women.  If I witness discrimination against a woman, I call the offender out on it if it's something significant, because I'm not okay with discrimination, and I do the exact same thing when I see anyone being discriminated against.  Jews, Christians, Canadians; some people grow up thinking bigotry's alright and all you have to do is tell them personally: "That's not okay."  Usually that's all it takes.  Feminism, as most often observed, is impersonal.  It's a population addressing the public.  That was great in the 40's and 50's when legal rights were really being established, and it worked fine for 30 years prior and after, but now it's not the way to go about it. 

Malaria, maybe you're a personal feminist.  Maybe you don't go to rallies and watch Oprah; maybe you're like me and just call people out when you see discrimination which I'm totally chill with, but then why do you declare yourself a feminist?  Why not just say "I fight for equal rights and to end discrimination"?  If you see unjust discrimination against a Moslem, do you call the offending party out on it?  Do you believe that Women are entitled to certain rights that others who suffer from discrimination just as much or more are not entitled to?  Because that is what I see when I see feminism; I see people who are too busy supporting the rights of one population to give proper attention to others more in need.
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2010, 05:53:21 am »
First of all, an excellent graphical scale of different hormones and neurotransmitters found in blood samples.  Note that the scaling is logarithmic.  As you can see, there's a huge difference between Males and Females for testosterone, estradiol, and progesterone.  This is the cause of the major stereotypes that men are larger, more muscular, and more emotionally consistent than women, and women have better memory, more "common sense", and are smaller than men.  These are accurate claims when looking at modes, medians, and averages; they are well-supported by neuroscience, psychological science, and chemical biology.

Everyone has anecdotal stories of how hormones do or don't affect emotional stability, I'm sure. I've seen it happen both ways. I've known women whose emotional affect went way the heck out of control when they were getting too much progestogen from low-estrogen or no-estrogen hormonal contraception. And one of my best friends, who has to take steroids when his Crohn's gets out of control, is one of the gentlest people I've ever known because he goes so far out of his way not to let hormones send him into "roid rage". But anecdotal stories, as meaningful as they are to us as individuals, are not the same as data. Have any studies been done which correlate emotional stability to gender and hormones?

Additionally, the PNG that you link shows that the highest concentrations of progestogens (specifically, 17-OHP) are to be found in males, though they're close during the follicular phase. This is close, but not quite true (as is often the case with Wikipedia graphs). Male levels of 17-OHP are slightly surpassed by peak levels during the luteal phase. And if we were going off of anecdotal evidence, in my experience progestogens (which are weakly androgenic in females) and testosterone are far more destabilizing to mood than estrogen. In fact, estrogen seems correlated to mood stability, given that the famous "PMS" occurs in the luteal phase when progestogen levels are at their highest and estrogen levels are low. For that matter, estrogen withdrawal has been positively correlated with mood swing, and replacement with stabilization.

All of this begs the question: Are women commonly thought of by men as "overemotional" because for several days a month (i.e. there's a noticeable contrast), they're exposed to a progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time (i.e. no noticeable contrast)? If that's the case, then I don't think it's fair to say that being prone to mood swing every day of the month is more emotionally stable than being prone to mood swing for several days a month.
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Offline superjaz

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2010, 08:46:39 am »
All of this begs the question: Are women commonly thought of by men as "overemotional" because for several days a month (i.e. there's a noticeable contrast), they're exposed to a progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time (i.e. no noticeable contrast)? If that's the case, then I don't think it's fair to say that being prone to mood swing every day of the month is more emotionally stable than being prone to mood swing for several days a month.

Thing is this is assuming that "progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time" is the only factor that makes a woman "over emotional" during those days
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2010, 09:29:27 am »
All of this begs the question: Are women commonly thought of by men as "overemotional" because for several days a month (i.e. there's a noticeable contrast), they're exposed to a progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time (i.e. no noticeable contrast)? If that's the case, then I don't think it's fair to say that being prone to mood swing every day of the month is more emotionally stable than being prone to mood swing for several days a month.

Thing is this is assuming that "progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time" is the only factor that makes a woman "over emotional" during those days


Excellent point; experiencing pain and physical discomfort isn't going to improve anyone's temperament. I was simply addressing the hormonal issue that had been raised.

For the record, I'm not asserting that "overemotional" is a fair or accurate charge. Quite the opposite. I'm repeating it in quotes because it's something that was commonly said, historically.


(Fun random fact for the day: we get the word "hysterical" from the same root word as "hysterectomy", because primitive medicine held that hyperemotional states were caused by the uterus. This claim has been going around for a while as a "reason" not to trust women's rationality, and it just won't die.)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 09:38:24 am by randompvg »
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2010, 09:42:23 am »
Having lived with four women all of my life, I've seen some "patterns" once their times came around (Yes, I got to a point to where I could tell who had their times).  I got the impression that it took some of their stronger personality traits and magnified them.  Things got scary around my house at times, and others it was somewhat depressing.  Either way, I spent a lot of time in my room, which they didn't understand why... go fig
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2010, 09:59:56 am »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying hormones don't have the potential to make people more prone to mood swing. I listed off a couple of examples, myself.

All I'm saying is that it's not a valid reason to treat women as more emotionally unstable than men, because 1) the exact relationship between hormones and mood is poorly-understood and 2) men are possibly even more susceptible to the same effect.
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Offline reppy

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2010, 01:43:13 pm »
More susceptible?! Well, that sounds kind of sexist!

Just kidding.  ;D

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Offline Felix

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2010, 02:09:01 pm »
Do differences in hormones mean women and men shouldn't have equal rights and opportunities?
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2010, 02:13:05 pm »
Do differences in hormones mean women and men shouldn't have equal rights and opportunities?
pffhahaha this made me laugh. Thanks Felix.

Everyone else, I'll get to your posts later. I had an interesting night, so I'm not at the height of clear thought right now.
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2010, 02:33:37 pm »
More susceptible?! Well, that sounds kind of sexist!

Just kidding.  ;D

Argh, you caught me - I'm sexist against everyone who has hormones, being that I'm a budding asexual (no pun intended). Hormones of any sort are evil. Down with them, I say!

Now I have to kill you for learning my secret.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 02:37:39 pm by randompvg »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2010, 02:37:21 pm »
@ Felix having a positive experience of being alt-gendered: That. Is. Awesome. More power to you.
@ Malaria for differentiating radical feminism from misandry: That's it exactly. Thank you.
@ Hormones: It is not simply what one experiences biochemically but how one is inculcated from earliest childhood to view the experience of our natural bodily rhythms. In goddess culture, in the new Red Tent movement, in Chassidic Judaism, in various pre-Christian cultures, women are valorized as life-bearers, celebrate being in harmony with the moon, are given access to special honors (such as purifying Mikveh bath rituals), are even seen as most intuitive & most in touch with nature, during our cycles.
Contrast that with Western Christian-influenced culture, "Original Sin", massive multi-million dollar industries with advertisements and products centered around shaming women for natural processes and scents, teasing and harrassment of young girls entering puberty...oh and the fact that the increasingly younger and younger age of onset of menarche is directly a result of overutilization of artificial hormones in animal feed and of exposure to toxics (http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm). And the vast prevalence of early childhood sexual assault against those who hit puberty early (happened to me concurrently at 9). And you have an undeniable constellation of environmental and psychological factors that are culturally constructed that shape how women experience our cycles that are unnecessarily negative and in the absence of which many of us (I'd go so far as to say most of us other than those with dysmennorhea) would have a positive or at least neutral experience of those very same hormones.
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2010, 04:25:30 pm »
random, individuals develop tolerances and dependencies to hormones, chemicals, toxins, and neurotransmitters based on their exposure to them over time.  Obviously, the average adult male isn't ten times as large and angry as the average adult female, because a tolerance to testosterone is developed.  Likewise, males adapt to a comfortable consistency when it comes to hormone levels; male mood cycles are strictly environmental, whereas women have steep, observable biological hormone cycles.  I'm not at all claiming that this makes women wild and crazy and unstable; but it's certainly a difference.  Hormones directly control which neurotransmitters are being produced in the nervous system, which directly controls muscle stimulation and which parts of the brain are being triggered.  Also, neural steroids such as progestrogens, especially progesterone, affect myelination of nerve cells which is a process where glial cells coat the axon of a nerve cell to prevent it from unintentionally triggering other nerve cells.  Lower progesterone correlates to less myelination, which correlates to bad triggering of nerve cells.  Nerve cells are what your brain is made of.  An unmyelinated nerve cell is like an uninsulated wire.  I build computers, and once neglected to properly insulate a wire.  Just one.  At one point that wire came in contact with the metal body of the computer case and shorted out the entire computer.  All it takes is one bad trigger like that to have an adverse effect on the brain as well (although the probability of a total shutdown occurring is much less likely, since the brain is much more elaborate than a computer), but I imagine you can understand how less myelination might correlate to some genuine adverse psychological effects tied into a woman's natural hormonal phase.  Now, I'm not saying the difference in myelination is severe, but it's another element that is there.

Also, the term mood swing is a DIFFERENCE in mood or personality.  If it's consistent; it's not a mood swing - just perhaps a more aggressive person.  On the other hand a female can be perfectly pleasant and rational 25 days a month, then she can be angry and aggressive for the other 5 days.  Whatever a male is like, he's generally like that pretty much all the time.  Women naturally have a cyclic personality.  I don't think that justifies workplace discrimination, especially in a case like with goatchild's mom where the workplace was familiar with her and knew that she was (presumably) emotionally and rationally stable enough to work in the medical field.  However, I think it justifies a degree of discretionary caution.  If you spend a week with a male and he is completely laid back and rational, you can expect him to be the same way if you spend another week with him in 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 10 weeks, 15 weeks, et cetera.  You can't always have the same expectations from a woman.  In order to know what a woman is like, from her best to her worst, you really need to spend 2 or 3 months around her to get a feel for what she's like throughout her cycle.  Hormonally speaking, women are dynamic, men aren't.  Some people train themselves to be otherwise (as a musician, I've intentionally trained myself to have mood swings so I can write dynamically), and I say more power to them.  It's the differences we exhibit that make our society work, and the more different we are as a society, the more different roles we can serve.  That said, if you subscribe to a gender but not the socially accepted roles of that gender, you're swimming upstream against a powerful river and it's your own fight.  Gender roles will exist as long as gender exists.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2010, 10:26:57 pm »
More susceptible?! Well, that sounds kind of sexist!

Just kidding.  ;D

Argh, you caught me - I'm sexist against everyone who has hormones, being that I'm a budding asexual (no pun intended). Hormones of any sort are evil. Down with them, I say!

Now I have to kill you for learning my secret.  ;)
@ Random: Thanks for a fun full-circle stream-of-consciousness here.  As I actually have a penpal on FB who is a public advocate of asexuality (i.e., of the assertion that for some, celibacy is an inborn orientation the way that being gay or straight is for others),
it took me awhile to remember examples of asexual reproduction via budding from AP Bio...which then reminded me of the asexual relationship between Sheldon Cooper & Amy Farrah Fowler (er...if readers don't know that's on Big Bang Theory, they need to be reminded there is TV out there that is utterly geekworthy that is not animated!).

P.S. Thank you for point about the misogynist etymology of hysterical.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:37:27 am by RemSaverem »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2010, 12:36:14 am »
First of all, an excellent graphical scale of different hormones and neurotransmitters found in blood samples.  Note that the scaling is logarithmic.  As you can see, there's a huge difference between Males and Females for testosterone, estradiol, and progesterone.  This is the cause of the major stereotypes that men are larger, more muscular, and more emotionally consistent than women, and women have better memory, more "common sense", and are smaller than men.  These are accurate claims when looking at modes, medians, and averages; they are well-supported by neuroscience, psychological science, and chemical biology.

Everyone has anecdotal stories of how hormones do or don't affect emotional stability, I'm sure. I've seen it happen both ways. I've known women whose emotional affect went way the heck out of control when they were getting too much progestogen from low-estrogen or no-estrogen hormonal contraception. And one of my best friends, who has to take steroids when his Crohn's gets out of control, is one of the gentlest people I've ever known because he goes so far out of his way not to let hormones send him into "roid rage". But anecdotal stories, as meaningful as they are to us as individuals, are not the same as data. Have any studies been done which correlate emotional stability to gender and hormones?

Additionally, the PNG that you link shows that the highest concentrations of progestogens (specifically, 17-OHP) are to be found in males, though they're close during the follicular phase. This is close, but not quite true (as is often the case with Wikipedia graphs). Male levels of 17-OHP are slightly surpassed by peak levels during the luteal phase. And if we were going off of anecdotal evidence, in my experience progestogens (which are weakly androgenic in females) and testosterone are far more destabilizing to mood than estrogen. In fact, estrogen seems correlated to mood stability, given that the famous "PMS" occurs in the luteal phase when progestogen levels are at their highest and estrogen levels are low. For that matter, estrogen withdrawal has been positively correlated with mood swing, and replacement with stabilization.

All of this begs the question: Are women commonly thought of by men as "overemotional" because for several days a month (i.e. there's a noticeable contrast), they're exposed to a progestogen:estrogen ratio similar to what men are exposed to all the time (i.e. no noticeable contrast)? If that's the case, then I don't think it's fair to say that being prone to mood swing every day of the month is more emotionally stable than being prone to mood swing for several days a month.
Your research and your logic continue to impress me. Thank you, Random. BTW: One way I've been able to get guys to stop talking about hormones is to remind them that if they don't want their girlfriends to be affected by hormones, they better man up and be the one taking full responsibility or birth control....It's revealing how many men are like 'hormones=bad' when it's a convenient excuse for their sexism or judgement, then immediately 'hormones=good' when they want their own lovers to ingest hormones in pill form every day rather than inconvenience or discomfit themselves with prophylactics.
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2010, 05:34:00 am »
random, individuals develop tolerances and dependencies to hormones, chemicals, toxins, and neurotransmitters based on their exposure to them over time.  Obviously, the average adult male isn't ten times as large and angry as the average adult female, because a tolerance to testosterone is developed.  Likewise, males adapt to a comfortable consistency when it comes to hormone levels; male mood cycles are strictly environmental, whereas women have steep, observable biological hormone cycles.

Do you have a source for this assertion? I'd be interested in seeing the research that's been done since I was in school, because the notion that hormones are like a drug which builds up tolerance pretty much flies in the face of what I learned there.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not being sarcastic. As one of my mentors put it, one of the most important aspects of molecular biology is knowing how very much we DON'T know. It's a developing field, and the theories of one generation are often overturned by the next generation. (You don't have to look any farther than transposons or the chemiosmotic theory for examples of that. Both were ridiculed, and both are now pretty much accepted as fact.*)

But this would indeed be news to me, and it doesn't seem to jive with the fact that hormonal contraception (including non-cyclic such as Depo-Provera or Lybrel) doesn't induce tolerance. A woman can take it for decades, and doesn't need to keep increasing doses lest it become ineffective.


* - Actually, those make their own interesting story in the context of this thread. Both discoveries had sound work behind them, but they were ridiculed and ignored until "one of the boys" did the research themselves. McClintock was outside the club by virtue of being a woman in the '40s and '50s, and Mitchell was outside the club by virtue of independently funding his own research.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 05:59:09 am by randompvg »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2010, 10:06:24 pm »
Random, once again you are on point. The very notion of what constitutes valid research and who are viewed as valid researchers is itself elitist and sexist. This observation and documentation of the pervasiveness of such in positivistic physical and social sciences form the cornestones for and create the exigency for feminist epistemologies. @DT IMHO, it is ridiculous to think men don't have cycles. Think serotonin, dopamine. Think sports, steroids, caffeine, intoxicants, stress. Think THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE: Build-up of tension, violent explosion, honeymoon period. Think of the vastly disproportionate number of murders committed by men. I am anti-essentialism, but if you want to push essentialism, women as nurturers vs men as murderers is as valid a cliche/stereotype as any (and could just as easily be portrayed in statistics), so you should be rallying for all political offices to be held by females. Ready to let go of essentialism yet?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:01:20 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2010, 11:04:05 pm »
I just wanted to say that, first of all, I'm not too thrilled to admit that this is where I got this from.

Second, I agree with one saying from Family Guy: "Feminism is about being free to make your own choices."  (Or something like that)
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2010, 09:25:39 am »
Random, once again you are on point. The very notion of what constitutes valid research and who are viewed as valid researchers is itself elitist and sexist.

Elitist? Yeah, I'd still pretty much have to agree with that. Research is still a "club"; in some ways a mutual-admiration society. And there's a lot of "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" wrt grant funding, which makes for issues with objectivity.

Sexist? Ehhhh... I can't speak for all fields, but I think that's mostly in the past now (at least in the physical sciences). What's left now is lingering "viewpoint" sexism - i.e. the same kind of stuff that led to the long-held misconception (no pun intended) that sperm and egg take on the stereotypical male-female sex roles, with the sperm trying to make the egg "give it up". Researchers' frame of reference for understanding their data is shaped by their experiences, which makes for misunderstandings if most of the researchers in a field have the same traditionally-male perspective. Give it another generation or two, though, and it'll (probably) mostly be gone as well.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2010, 12:57:10 pm »
Entrenched androcentrism in research science is often literally deadly. Take the medical research field. For years what you saw in print about what to watch for in heart attack warning signs was based solely on how heart attacks present in men, which was presumed to be generalizable to women. But it's not. Heart attacks can present differently in women (i.e. have different onset symptoms). Heart medicines that were tested only on men can kill women, etc.
http://www.public.asu.edu/~squiroga/santill.HTM
I have a several books about entrenched androcentrism in medicine. One of the earliest/most famous is called "Mal/e-Practice". Among other deadly examples: When a male presents with pain, male doctors are more likely to look for physical causes; when a woman presents with pain, male doctors are more likely to look for emotional causes. There are huge industries and millions in advertising to help men with erectile dysfunction (pills, machines, herbs); women who are not orgasmic (even if the reason is lack of anatomical knowledge on their partner's part or PTSD from abuse) or who otherwise do not enjoy or are disinterested in sex with men are still stigmatized as "frigid" and pathologized. Etc.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:05:52 pm by RemSaverem »
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Offline jaybug

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2010, 06:34:15 pm »
One, the pay disparity is an AVERAGE. TO get women equal, you will need to seriously dampen men's pay. Factors contributing to this disparity are number one, motherhood, and not working concurrently. WHile they are not earning money, they are counted in the entire wage calculations. And whether not working for a short time, or giving up entirely, until the kids are grown, would mean either we can have no male CEOs, or athletes who earn extraordinary salaries, or we just keep doing what we are doing.

Limiting the amount of financial aid available to men.

crud, I forgot the second one now.

Did anyone yet mention the genital mutilation of women in countries of a certain religion?

Women can own concealed handguns here, ya know. Buy one, practice, OFTEN.

Is it just me, or did the original thread seem to be the only way to elevate women, was to trod upon men?
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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2010, 07:31:31 pm »
I'm sure some people consider circumcision to be genital mutilation. ^^

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2010, 09:19:35 pm »
I think .... for me... the greates tpoint of interest is in the male and female though process.

I remember reading somewhere that men think in straight lines where as women tend to think in circles. Both have their strong and weak points.

The great divide between men and women would seem to be that of perception. What one percieves as correct anoter sees as wrong.

The funny part is neither part is completely right or wrong. Hence we are all equals we are not the same being.

(wow do I sound sappy but Im trying to word that so as not to be offensive to anyone)
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Offline reppy

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2010, 09:33:41 pm »
I am deeply offended by people that try not to offend others.  Way to go, pal!

Just kidding.

I understand what you're saying. ^^

If all men and women acted and thought the same .. man, I'd be one sad kitty cat. D:  I like girls that well, act in a way that is different from how I act.  In case you couldn't tell, I act incredibly manly.  All the time.

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Offline DemonSpawn

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2010, 10:24:28 pm »
In case you couldn't tell, I act incredibly manly.  All the time.
That's sarcasm right? ;D
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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2010, 10:50:00 pm »
In case you couldn't tell, I act incredibly manly.  All the time.
That's sarcasm right? ;D
I suspect it was meant that way, but I wouldn't have any trouble accepting it as a serious assertion. It takes a heck of a lot more courage to fly in the face of societal gender constraints than it does to fit in with them. (^_^)
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2010, 11:13:27 pm »
Jaybug:
One, the pay disparity is an AVERAGE. TO get women equal, you will need to seriously dampen men's pay. Factors contributing to this disparity are number one, motherhood, and not working concurrently. WHile they are not earning money, they are counted in the entire wage calculations. And whether not working for a short time, or giving up entirely, until the kids are grown, would mean either we can have no male CEOs, or athletes who earn extraordinary salaries, or we just keep doing what we are doing.
The higher number, 84 cents to the dollar, corresponds to men and women working the same hours in the same positions in the same fields, ie employees who are functionally the same with their only major difference being their sex.
No one is counting the outliers of professional sports. However, that presents its own set of issues. Salaries are capped in the millions for men in the NBA, while women in the NBA top out at about $200,000 per year. Talk about a sex-based pay disparity.
No one here is saying we need men to make less or women to make more, but for everyone to make the same wage for the same work, which isn't the reality. A lot of getting higher wages and promotions in corporate environments involves asking for them. There's a whole psychology of salary negotiation and when tough negotiation is appropriate associated with each sex. Women who are willing to fight for promotions and raises are viewed poorly in their office environments (think the word "bitch"), while men exhibiting the same behavior are lauded.

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Limiting the amount of financial aid available to men.
The idea of affirmative action-type financial aid is to improve the standard of living and opportunities for traditionally disadvantaged classes of society. White, straight, middle class, able-bodied men don't need the leg up, for the most part. They're already society's favorite class, enjoying all sorts of privileges and advantages.

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crud, I forgot the second one now.
If you remember, I'd be happy to hear it later.

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Did anyone yet mention the genital mutilation of women in countries of a certain religion?
I know this practice is often associated with Muslim countries, but anthropologically speaking I've only encountered it as a practice associated with African tribes, pre-monotheist imperialism. And I think it's a horrible practice, I'm just not sure what you want to address about it.

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Women can own concealed handguns here, ya know. Buy one, practice, OFTEN.
By putting the onus for defense against violent crime on the victims, you lose the opportunity to teach criminals not to commit crimes. Also, not all women like guns. Not everyone can afford to deal with the legal mess of a gun. A gun-owning friend of mine told me once that in any case where you defend yourself with a gun, even if you're in the right, you can expect to spend at least $20k in legal fees anyway. I don't have $20k.
 
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Is it just me, or did the original thread seem to be the only way to elevate women, was to trod upon men?
... Which original thread? I think it's just this one.
I am paraphrasing really hard here, but "Equality feels like discrimination to the privileged." Privilege is an unfair advantage given to one class of people just because they're that class. Achieving equality means losing the unfair advantage. Men have to lose their male privilege in order to achieve equality of sexes and genders.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:20:19 pm by Malaria »
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2010, 11:17:51 pm »
Quote from: kylite
I think .... for me... the greates tpoint of interest is in the male and female though process.

I remember reading somewhere that men think in straight lines where as women tend to think in circles. Both have their strong and weak points.

The great divide between men and women would seem to be that of perception. What one percieves as correct anoter sees as wrong.
This sounds like hyper-generalized bull to me. There are a lot of sociological theories out there about how men and women think, and it's hard to give credence to any particular theory, largely because I don't see men and women as being such unified wholes. Lots of people exist outside the prescribed norms of their sex. There might be some differentiation between the thought patterns of cisgender people, but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. We have to take people's thoughts as they are, not how we believe they should be according to their perceived sex.

DancingTofu, I'm still working on your post. It just happens to be a lot. XD
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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2010, 12:22:25 am »
No one is counting the outliers of professional sports. However, that presents its own set of issues. Salaries are capped in the millions for men in the NBA, while women in the NBA top out at about $200,000 per year. Talk about a sex-based pay disparity.

That's more of a popularity issue.  As it stands currently, The WNBA product does not have the same caliber of athlete and talent that the NBA does.  It does not garner the same audience.  You can claim a sex bias, but I'd much rather watch this, this, this, or this.

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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2010, 12:25:54 am »
DancingTofu, I'm still working on your post. It just happens to be a lot. XD
Thank goodness I decided to go with an abbreviated version then ;P
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2010, 12:38:20 am »
No one is counting the outliers of professional sports. However, that presents its own set of issues. Salaries are capped in the millions for men in the NBA, while women in the NBA top out at about $200,000 per year. Talk about a sex-based pay disparity.

That's more of a popularity issue.  As it stands currently, The WNBA product does not have the same caliber of athlete and talent that the NBA does.  It does not garner the same audience.  You can claim a sex bias, but I'd much rather watch this, this, this, or this.
I really have no interest in basketball, so I can't say too much either way. It's just a neat number I saw a while back on Jezebel in an article I can't find anymore. xP
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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2010, 12:47:50 am »
Honestly, I'm more irritated by the fact that the most "attractive" female athletes make the most money, not the most skilled.  But that's an issue with society and what people are willing to pay money to see.

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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2010, 01:44:54 am »
Honestly, I'm more irritated by the fact that the most "attractive" female athletes make the most money, not the most skilled.  But that's an issue with society and what people are willing to pay money to see.
Ohey, it's like women are often valued more for their looks than their skills. As opposed to men, who can be valued largely for their skills above their looks.
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2010, 01:49:40 am »
So, my original plan was to take the time to fully respond to all of Malaria's initial statements as well as any new lines of discussion that came into play in the mean time, but that's not going to happen with how much action this thread is getting.  Instead, I'm going to try to just cover as much as possible without responding to anything specifically.
Sounds good to me.

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First of all, an excellent graphical scale of different hormones and neurotransmitters found in blood samples.  Note that the scaling is logarithmic.  As you can see, there's a huge difference between Males and Females for testosterone, estradiol, and progesterone.  This is the cause of the major stereotypes that men are larger, more muscular, and more emotionally consistent than women, and women have better memory, more "common sense", and are smaller than men.  These are accurate claims when looking at modes, medians, and averages; they are well-supported by neuroscience, psychological science, and chemical biology.
Ohmijesus so much science I have no practical grasp of. You'll have to forgive me for deferring to Random's interpretation of the data, because I don't have the knowledge base needed to draw any conclusions.
I'm more able to speak to the danger of turning the average into the expectation, and the power of reinforced expectation. When you tell someone, directly and indirectly throughout their lives, that they will be emotionally consistent, they will work to appear more emotionally consistent. Unless, by chance, they happen to have been raised in an environment that discouraged that sort of social programming, or they are smart and self-aware enough to reject it on their own. In which case, they get looked at strangely by everyone around them that did and does subscribe to that programming, programming which doesn't include tolerance for people outside the norm. Thus, those who aren't exact medical average, and instead exist in the many unacknowledged liminal spaces of sex and gender, suffer from the intolerance of those who have very set ideas of what each sex should do and be like.
When I say people in a liminal space, I don't necessarily mean trans people or genderqueer or intersex people. I mean women who aren't inherently very empathic or men who aren't inherently very muscular. By allowing prejudice based on something as variable as the medical average, we encourage the suffering of those who aren't the medical average, and we give ourselves leave to make assumptions and judgment

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That said, it is entirely inappropriate to judge an individual based on an attribute of a population which that individual identifies with,
Glad we're agreed.

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but it really can't be prevented,
Of course it can. Widespread social movements in the last twenty years have vastly improved the social acceptability of queer people, when for a long time we had all sorts of “science” that told us they were bad, evil perverts and pedophiles. Knowing that we've made mistakes like that in the past, going forward we can make the conscious choice to judge people based on their individual qualities, rather than depending on science which, as Random pointed out, is unclear at best.

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yet there comes a point when stereotyping is widely accepted as bad (generally when the legal system and societal moralities dictate as such).
Just because we think a thing is generally bad doesn't mean we do anything to actively prevent its implementation. Most stereotyping is written write into our psyches by years and years of messaging about what qualities various types and classes of people have.

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In the communities in which most of the people involved in this discussion currently exist, that is the case.
See above. We stereotype whether we think it's a good idea or not. You do it, I do it.  Only with constant vigilance and critical examination of our judgments of individuals can we discover what stereotypes might be coloring our perception of those individuals.

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Certainly, there are other countries and even a few states or small communities here and there where sexism is not considered bad, but most of us operate within environments where it is.
It really, really depends on what you mean by sexism. It's almost never so simple as “women bad, men good,” or “women should be in the kitchen, men should be doing hard labor.” The sort of sexism that we encounter on a day to day basis is passed over as “the way it should be,” like in Griffinclaw Princess's post. Her opinions aren't abnormal. She spoke rather eloquently for the silent majority.

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That being the case, activism is really quite counterproductive.  By drawing attention to something like that, you make people think about it, and when people think about sexism, well, they're thinking about it.
I think it's great when people are forced to reconsider their underlying assumptions. When people can effectively question themselves, they become more thoughtful and are likely to act more conscientiously.
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If they don't think about it, but they subconsciously know it's bad, sexism is gone.
Not thinking about it doesn't mean people aren't encountering, it just means they don't care. You can't call the days before any sort of feminist movement not sexist just because it wasn't a concern for anyone. Ignorance isn't absence.

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The fight for sexual equality has made a lot of progress in the last 100 years.  Today, organized activism is trivialized in our society.
I sort of agree with you here in the general sense. The combination of emotional distancing and ease of organization through the Internet has made activism easy to the point where people feel as if they've contributed to a cause just by joining a Facebook group.

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The fight for equality is, as has been said, never won, but you can't win unless you fight the enemy.  Sexism against women, as it exists today, is largely caused by women drawing attention to the fact that they are, in fact, women.
You can't dismiss the sexism I and many others experience in our day to day lives. As I said above, just because you are ignorant of it does not make it absent.

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Society teaches us to have a strong emotional attachment to our respective genders, and by becoming attached to our genders, we mold ourselves into the stereotypes we claim to be fighting against. A woman who wear's womens' clothing then complains about being labeled a woman is a hypocrite.
I don't know if you haven't noticed, but the stereotypes for what women are and do are expansive. More than any woman could really be. A lot of women want people to stop expecting them to fit those stereotypes and instead allow them to be whatever it is they are that isn't “womanly”: hate children, be childfree, be aggressive, be sloppy, be loud, love sports, focus on their careers, be perfectly happy without a man in their lives, suck at cleaning and all the rest of the things that women are regularly told that they shouldn't be, aren't, won't ever be. My skirt doesn't mean I want to have children, that I'm emotionally comforting, that I want to have sex. It means I like my skirt. The stifling and narrowing of women's self-expression, such that they have to be constantly vigilant of what messages they're sending because there's so much wrapped up in every move a woman makes, is one of the reasons I am such an activist. It sucks living that way. I don't like, and I don't want it for anyone else. There's nothing hypocritical about wanting to be taken for an individual, rather than a set of stereotypes. There's no hypocrisy, just a bunch of loaded assumptions being made by everyone who isn't the individual in question.

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As Ghandi said, "Be the change you wish to see in others."  Stop trying to change the whole world and just change yourself.  Exist within your own appropriate world and the world will change itself upon observing your wellness.
As much as I can be, I am the change I wish to see in others. But it's really hard to lead by example when the example is a ruthless second-guessing of every impression I form of a person, evaluating for irrational judgments made based on inculcated stereotypes of which I don't know the full depth or breadth.
This philosophy is lovely but doesn't apply to my situation or that of any other woman. I don't have the option of existing in my own appropriate world. It doesn't exist.

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The concept of rape culture is something I really want to address, because it's really something that the feminist movement took and tried to use, and it's been terribly counterproductive.
Except for all those victims who've been empowered to report their rapists, get help for any psychological trauma and counter-victim blaming advocacy.

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I fear rape and sexual predation.
Hey, me too! Doesn't change the fact that it's disproportionately a cis man-on-cis woman crime.

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While I won't divulge details since it's not something I'm really comfortable discussing publicly, I will say that I have been sexually violated in the past by both women and men, and I can say with utmost confidence that the correspondence of rape and gender has nothing to do with sexual inequality.
Your experience, for which you have my sympathy, is extraordinary. However, we have attitudes about what constitutes consent, specifically about women, that do make it an issue for and about women. Women are perceived as “asking for it” and inherently consenting when exhibiting any number of behaviors. Things like being dressed attractively, (the standards for which vary pretty wildly) flirting (or being perceived as flirting), being drunk high or otherwise impaired are all taken as “implied” consent. Women who are raped while dressed well, not sober or after talking to a guy for a while are often perceived as somehow complicit in their own rapes. Men who date rape women who were too drunk to consent get off scot free all the time, just because we have set beliefs about how women should respond to men's sexual advances. In worse cases, where it's impossible for wives to accuse husbands of rape, it becomes an issue of consistently valuing the wants and needs of men over that of women in something so basic as what we do with our bodies. In that situation, women exist at least partially to attend to the needs of their (male) partner at their own expense, because as a society, we value the sexual needs of men more than the safety and security of women.

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Almost all rape is a declaration of false superiority, used by people who are insecure about their value, and wish to enhance their image of self-worth by expressing sexual dominance over another person.
Or, as in a lot of cases, a declaration by the rapist that their wants and needs come before those of their victim.
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Some posted at some point that rape rates are 1 in 3 for women, and 1 and 10 for men.  Those are wrong.  Those might be reported rates, but those are absolutely wrong.  Most rapists threaten their victims to keep them quiet.  Most victims are children.  Most people have mysterious holes in their childhood where there seems to be no memories.
1 in 3 is the largest estimate I see, 1 in 6 the most conservative. Just fyi. Haven't seen anything other than 1 in 10 for men, though. And those statistics do take into account the frequency of unreported rapes. I don't know the formula for it, so I can't comment on its validity.

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Rape is a disturbing sociopathic act which violates every law and moral imaginable.  It occurs an act of theft, assault, adultery, murder, gluttony, envy, extortion, blackmail, and so much more.  By accusing men, many--if not most--of whom have been sexually abused at some point in their lifetime (whether they're willing to remember it or not) that they are guilty of cultivating rape culture is incredibly destructive to self esteem.  That brings us right back to the actual cause of rape: our society is frequently demoralizing to people who haven't actually done anything wrong, and feminism is a big finger-pointer.
They'll stop being accused when they stop cultivating it. Every time a man chooses to see a woman as an object rather than as a whole person, and shares that choice with the men around him, the value of women as a whole is diminished. The less men value women, the more likely they are to put their desires ahead of those of the woman, and hey, suddenly we get our rate of rape, which is stunningly high in comparison to other industrialized nations.
I'd argue that it takes a certain amount of confidence to rape someone. You have to feel as if you are more powerful than them to begin with, that you can get away with it, that it's okay for you to do so, even that it's your right. It makes sense that the consistent privileging of men over women carries over into sex, too.

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I also want to address the issue of perception here.  I'm not victimized by sexism against women, since I'm not one and have a pretty huge moustache which declares me not one, but I am the victim of sexism, and what I see is something that happens on a very individual level.
The patriarchy hurts everyone, it's true. Expectations of behavior go both ways, and are equally harmful to all people who try to function outside the norm. However, the status quo gets men all sorts of nice things to with their social taboos. Assumptions about emotional reliability and clarity, suitability to positions of authority, all these things are yours just for having a penis!
Re: acting individually. No one acts in a vacuum. Individual actions are influenced by social norms are influenced by individual actions.

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The sexism that happens isn't universally held, and therefor it's a personal, case-by-case situation, not something that needs to be addressed to society.
When the personal sexism is endemic to the whole society, then it should be addressed by the society and the individual.

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If a population of men is sexist against a woman, that woman should absolutely call them out on it, and since our legal system's bogus, a lot of the time it won't work out too great, such as in goatchild's story. However, a bogus legal system doesn't equate to sexism.  It equates to a bogus legal system that doesn't always give enough of a damn to uphold law and liberty.  Women get shafted; so do men.  Back to goatchild's story, yeah, her family encountered some sexism in the medical field.  Then they managed to find a place where sexism wasn't an issue.
A legal system that doesn't pursue the claims of women because it assumes that the claims are always frivolous is totally sexist. The point is that women get shafted differently just because they're women.
The sexism in Goatchild's story shouldn't have been happening at all. We shouldn't dismiss it just because her mother succeeded in finding better conditions for herself. We should be enraged that it happened in the first place, because no one deserves to have their skills and their experience undervalued just because of their sex or gender.

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Again, sexism exists, but it's far from universal.  Equality for women in most industries is pretty balanced.  In the few were it isn't, look at who's running them.  Old white men.  So old white men are sexist.
Old white men are sexist, but so are the rest of us. You and me and everyone else who was raised in our sexist society.
Equality for women in most industries isn't balanced at all. Hard sciences, especially, struggle to recruit  a parity of men and women, because women are often discouraged from going into science, math or engineering. Not as much as before, but still a problem. Corporate management is still dominated by men, too.

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Well that's nothing new.  The good news is they'll die/retire/get replaced soon, and eventually everyone running everything in the US will have lived their entire lives in societies where sexism was universally considered a bad thing, same with racism, or if you want an example of something that would have gotten me excluded from almost all aspects of society and possibly murdered a few hundred years ago, left-handedness.  Society finds really stupid reasons to exclude people, but would you take me seriously if I started pushing for equal rights for lefties?  I wouldn't take me seriously.
The people who benefit from the discrimination of old white guys, the slightly younger white male successors, aren't going to give up all the privilege they get from discrimination. I mean, maybe it'll be better. But as far as I'm concerned, it's never better fast enough. It's never enough until we are actually judging people based on who they really are, rather than the stereotypes we've decided they represent.
… Did you just try to say that racism isn't an issue anymore? Because that is straight up not true. This isn't my area of expertise, but just a quick look at the rates of poverty by ethnicity will tell you there is something very wrong with how our wealth is distributed, even generations after we supposedly ended all discrimination on the basis of race.
I just consulted with a couple lefties, (critical types, sensitive to inculcated biases) and according to my extremely shotgun poll, lots of people are apparently kind of jerks to lefties, intolerant of an inherent difference that is part of their lives. Since we live in a right-handed oriented world, lefties are expected to cope with industries that almost uniformly produce instruments, such as scissors, that don't suit how they function at all. Those concerns are dismissed with a casual “use your non-dominant hand, it's no big deal,” but I can attest from many a stupid, bored experiment that using your non-dominant hand is hard. If we can put ramps in sidewalks so alter-abled people can use our streets, we can give lefties scissors they can use properly. So we should stop being jerks to lefties and give them their scissors.
All that, right there? Perfectly serious. No one should ever have to suffer at all because of intolerance or apathy countenanced by privilege.

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With the exception of a few very backwards states, women in the US have full equal rights.
On paper. I'm more interested in the subtle discriminations that shape the lives of women. 

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Far moreso than gays, transexuals, asexuals, hermaphrodites, Latinos, muslims, and other populations.  Women are discriminated against.  That's a real shame, which is why I choose not to discriminate against women, and I'm in full support of anyone else who chooses not to discriminate against women.  If I witness discrimination against a woman, I call the offender out on it if it's something significant, because I'm not okay with discrimination, and I do the exact same thing when I see anyone being discriminated against.
That's very noble of you. That doesn't mean you know what the real time extent of sexism is in our society. It's okay if you don't really want to think about it, or don't like the way it's framed, but it'd be cool if you respected the need for those who are suffering from it to identify and address those concerns as they saw necessary in order to improve their own standard of living.
Slightly more concretely, when endemic sexism is limiting access to healthcare, both reproductive and otherwise, women get knocked down to the second level of Maslow's pyramid. You might not think of the attitudes underlying these problems as problematic in and of themselves, because you seem to believe that medical averages justify the stereotyping of women's emotional stability, which feeds into a societal perception of the lack of reliability re: women's own medical decisions and judgments, but reducing the quality of life for whole swaths of people like that is just not cool.

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Jews, Christians, Canadians; some people grow up thinking bigotry's alright and all you have to do is tell them personally: "That's not okay."  Usually that's all it takes.  Feminism, as most often observed, is impersonal.  It's a population addressing the public.  That was great in the 40's and 50's when legal rights were really being established, and it worked fine for 30 years prior and after, but now it's not the way to go about it.
That's what it takes to get them to stop one particular behavior when they're in your presence specifically. Doesn't change underlying damaging attitudes.
I find feminism very personal. It's my way of seeking a greater standard of living.
As I said above, it's not so much about legal rights anymore. It's about assumptions and stereotypes that underpin consistent mistreatment of women.
Also, you should really leave it to the activists themselves to decide how to go about their causes. Seeing as they're the ones working at them constantly, seeing what works and what doesn't.

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Malaria, maybe you're a personal feminist.  Maybe you don't go to rallies and watch Oprah; maybe you're like me and just call people out when you see discrimination which I'm totally chill with, but then why do you declare yourself a feminist?  Why not just say "I fight for equal rights and to end discrimination"?  If you see unjust discrimination against a Moslem, do you call the offending party out on it?  Do you believe that Women are entitled to certain rights that others who suffer from discrimination just as much or more are not entitled to?  Because that is what I see when I see feminism; I see people who are too busy supporting the rights of one population to give proper attention to others more in need.
Oprah really isn't my brand of feminism. She does good work, but I don't find anything particularly interesting about her show or her empire. Thinking about it, I don't know any self-identified feminists that look to Oprah as a feminist touchstone. She ain't no Gloria Steinem.
In terms of causes outside feminism, I am better read, more critical and more capable of commenting on daily discriminations oriented around sexism than I am of any other -ism. So I am primarily a feminist. But then we stumble on something known in feminist circles as intersectionality, where the rights of women intersect with eco justice, reproductive rights, racism, ableism, look-ism, access to education, access to basic material needs and a thousand other issues. I care about all of it, but feminist issues are where I am most able to act, and it makes the most sense for me to dedicate my energy where I can act most effectively. Everyone has a niche cause, and that's much better than everyone trying to push for some general, overly broad set of changes. Depth is more important than breadth, when it comes to individuals trying to instigate radical social change. As has been discussed previously in the thread, there is a whole complex of -isms that need to be addressed in the world and everyone does what they can so that in the end everyone can get as much of what they need in terms of an end to discrimination and an increase in social and economic justice. Feminists aren't suggesting that we should privilege an end to discrimination for women above that of others, especially since a lot of feminists also happen to be women of color who would like to see an end to the racism in their lives. All activists act concurrently, sometimes counter-productively, as effectively as they can.
I will not pansy out and fail to say that I am a feminist, because that ignores the stigmatization of that word. This is what a feminist looks like: I am not a stereotype of a bulldyke or a bra burner or a misandrist. There is nothing wrong with clearly stating my intention to fight for equality of sexes and genders. Just because I say I'm a feminist doesn't mean I'm not also a humanist, but failure to address issues specifically is a failure to act effectively.
I am a feminist because I put energy, thought and consideration into how to make my world less sexist specifically. I don't just “call people out” when I notice something wrong. Negative enforcement can only do so much. Forward motion and progress are needed to resolve the issues associated with sexism and every other -ism. The sort of behavior that you're advocating is pretty passive. It only addresses problems when they're obvious. I want to eliminate root causes. I want the media to stop brandishing girl and boy children with caricatures of who they are and who they should be, because I don't want them to grow up thinking they should be a particular way just because of their genitalia. I want companies to stop underpaying their women employees. I want to stop hearing terrible, nonsense generalizations about what women are or what men are and what they should be. So I'm a feminist.
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2010, 03:23:46 am »
Malaria: This is kind of a really lackluster response and I apologize for that, but there's nothing left that I really have a counter-argument for.  I think I could still argue over some trivial details, but I'll refrain, since doing so wouldn't really be productive in any way whatsoever.  It's probably better to say that I don't necessarily agree with you 100%, but I can respect your views and arguments as you've presented them.  I follow my own advice and live in my own reality where I see things as they can and (I think) ought to be, and you live in the reality where things are a lot less mellow.  I won't fault you on that if you don't fault me for my ignorance (and therein my bliss).
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2010, 09:31:46 am »
First, I have to say I share boogiepop's opinion.

From my life experience as a male I've got to say it seems like things are skewed in women's favor.  At college, they have women's resource center, women's studies, mother's rooms. 

I knew a classmate that took a women's studies class and questioned the professor about a few things, he got the response "You are male and thus not able to understand".  Apparently in her opinion, males are handicapped for being male.

Also, at work women get better breaks for having children.  Men can take an unpaid bonding leave.  Women can take a paid maternity leave, and if they want within a year take the same unpaid bonding leave.  So much for equality.

Look at divorce.  Statistically speaking women come out way ahead in divorce.  84% of single parent families are women.  Most all of the men I know who got divorced never have custody of their children, it doesn't matter who has a better job or a number of other things, unless the mother is completely incompetent she'll get the kids.  The only case I know of where the dad got the kids was when the mother still failed to pay rent even tho he was sending her child support and spent all day at home screaming at her sons. 

There was a best of craigslist post a while back that talked about how if you are a man, you are on your own, there isn't societal support that there is for women, suck it up and accept the fact of our society.

That being said, I'm with boogiepop in her conclusion, people on either extreme need to be...well yeah, go back a few pages to read. 
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Offline reppy

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2010, 10:47:54 am »
Honestly, I'm more irritated by the fact that the most "attractive" female athletes make the most money, not the most skilled.  But that's an issue with society and what people are willing to pay money to see.
Ohey, it's like women are often valued more for their looks than their skills. As opposed to men, who can be valued largely for their skills above their looks.

I recently started working in the IT field.  My boss says he used to have long hair (as I once did -- had to cut it to get a job -- that's an entirely different rant), then he cut it and found out he could make 60% more.  Looks do count for males, but only so far as they appear professional.  They can still be ugly as sin. ^^;

Quote from: melchizedek
Look at divorce.  Statistically speaking women come out way ahead in divorce.  84% of single parent families are women.  Most all of the men I know who got divorced never have custody of their children, it doesn't matter who has a better job or a number of other things, unless the mother is completely incompetent she'll get the kids.  The only case I know of where the dad got the kids was when the mother still failed to pay rent even tho he was sending her child support and spent all day at home screaming at her sons.

My brother had to go through all kinds of trouble to get custody of his kids.  If I recall, after a lot of time spent in court, he got them because his ex-wife just signed them over to him after her mother and their pastor urged her to do so.  You see, she has a drug addiction, was in an out of rehab, and was actually hospitalized twice while pregnant (not my brother's kid, hence the divorce) for alcohol poisoning.  And if I recall, if they weren't able to find the father (we knew who it was, but he was trying to avoid paying child support) then my brother was going to have to pay child support for a kid that wasn't even his.  Speaking of child support, my brother has never received a cent from either of the two mothers he has kids with.

On some issues, certain things are biased in favor of men, and others in favor of women.  I think women getting custody of kids is based on the belief that women are better natural caregivers.  I tend to believe so as well.  Having said that, I also believe it's possible for men to do just as good (or bad!) a job of raising children.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 10:57:12 am by reppy »

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Offline Washougal_Otaku

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2010, 10:59:09 am »
^ To touch up on that, in some states, including Washington (I don't know about Oregon), the rate of fathers getting custody rather than mothers is going up, especially in first-time cases.  Sometimes it is a matter of the mother being a failure at motherhood, sometimes it is because the father works better for the children as a whole, and in some cases it's because the parents agreed that this option would work better.

As for the hair thing, being one who had to get his hair cut because of a "job policy," I feel that this policy is crap, at least where I was working at the time.  It was Taco Bell.  I was originally told that guys could have long hair, so long as they kept it up, just like the females.  No problem; in fact, I got so familiar with the policies regarding hair, that I became the top enforcer of the policy.  Over half of the females would do some mediocre job, like have a hairnet over just the bun part of their hair, or something like that.  A couple would give me lip about it, but still did it correctly when I called the head manager to back me up.  I thought it was sexist and hypocritical that I was asked to cut my hair, after all of this, so I decided to not care about the policy any more.

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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2010, 01:39:13 pm »
(completely tangential rant)

If you ask me, "policy" makes a much better epithet than any of the words we have to censor on the forums. Forget men screwing women or women screwing men, the worst of it comes from the corporations that screw us both.

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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2010, 05:41:42 pm »
Malaria: This is kind of a really lackluster response and I apologize for that, but there's nothing left that I really have a counter-argument for.  I think I could still argue over some trivial details, but I'll refrain, since doing so wouldn't really be productive in any way whatsoever.  It's probably better to say that I don't necessarily agree with you 100%, but I can respect your views and arguments as you've presented them.  I follow my own advice and live in my own reality where I see things as they can and (I think) ought to be, and you live in the reality where things are a lot less mellow.  I won't fault you on that if you don't fault me for my ignorance (and therein my bliss).
As long as you stop claiming modern feminist activism is a farce, I will leave you to live in as much ignorant bliss as you like.
edit: I actually take that back after thinking about it for a bit. If you acknowledge that my arguments are valid (in that you have no counter-arguments) and therefore acknowledge that sexism is kind of a problem, don't you feel sort of... amoral when you choose not to consider that problem as it appears in your day-to-day life?
Mods, is that too personal? I don't even know at this point.

I also went back and reread my post from last night, and I'm sorry it was full of glaring grammatical issues. >< That's what I get for writing things as quickly as possible while I should be sleeping.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:54:05 pm by Malaria »
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2010, 06:20:12 pm »
I realized as I was writing this that I've citing the concept of male privilege constantly, and I forgot that for most people this isn't an idea they encounter often. Here is Barry's Male Privilege Checklist, which is a pretty comprehensive list of all the things men don't have to deal with in their daily lives thanks to being men and not women or genderqueer people.

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From my life experience as a male I've got to say it seems like things are skewed in women's favor.  At college, they have women's resource center, women's studies, mother's rooms.
Those things are desperate efforts to make up the desperate difference in privilege faced by women. WRCs wouldn't be necessary if it wasn't so difficult/stigmatized for women to get reproductive health services such as birth control, contraceptives and abortion clinic referrals. Especially since the onus of sexual health in any partnership is automatically put on the women, women have to take of their health, especially their sexual health, much more than men do. Women's studies are there to make up for a historically androcentric scholarship community. Our understanding of human nature is largely an understanding of the nature of men, without credence for the worldview and experience of women. A lot of accomplishments of women throughout history were dismissed and marginalized because a lot of our history is taught using Great Man Theory, where we focus on the flow of history as something perpetrated by individual leaders and geniuses, mostly white men. Without women's studies, it's likely most people would never notice that this is something that's happening, much less an actual issue.

edit: I was stupid and forgot about the primary reason for the existence of women's health centers. It's because women need specifically trained doctors to deal with the fact that their genitalia is internal, as opposed to men who can pretty much tell immediately if something has gone wrong because it's all visible. Women can't tell for themselves, so they need routine medical checks to make sure that nothing is going wrong where they can't see it.

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I knew a classmate that took a women's studies class and questioned the professor about a few things, he got the response "You are male and thus not able to understand".  Apparently in her opinion, males are handicapped for being male.
There are some life experiences men can't ever have because they're male, and are insulated by male privilege. That doesn't mean you're incapable of understanding, she probably just didn't feel like trying to make him go through the whole rigmarole of acknowledging his privilege. Making anyone own up to any sort of privilege they might have is tiring and often unrewarding.

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Also, at work women get better breaks for having children.
Assuming the company is willing to hire them at all, for fear of them being "unreliable" due to the assumption that they will be the primary caregivers for any children they have or might have.  

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Men can take an unpaid bonding leave. Women can take a paid maternity leave, and if they want within a year take the same unpaid bonding leave.  So much for equality.
In exchange, women have to go through pregnancy and labor. The human body evolved in such a way that there isn't actually room for either of those processes in your modern human woman. I would totally trade away maternity leave for never having to push a newborn through a 10 cm canal in my body.
There's also a lot of assumptions about parenting tied up in how leave is doled out. Because we automatically assume a woman will be the primary caregiver, and because she will be seen as selfish if she chooses to be otherwise, (see the Checklist above) a woman must have extra forms of maternity leave or risk social stigmatization. If we expected parenting to be a cooperative venture, men and women would probably get about the same amount of leave.

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Look at divorce.  Statistically speaking women come out way ahead in divorce.  84% of single parent families are women.
And then we stigmatize the hell out of single parent families, assuming that the woman is somehow morally deficient (if she was never married) or a shrew and a bitch (if she was) for running her life in such a way.

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Most all of the men I know who got divorced never have custody of their children, it doesn't matter who has a better job or a number of other things, unless the mother is completely incompetent she'll get the kids.
The entrenched assumptions about who should be the primary caregiver in any given situation are also disadvantageous for men sometimes too. Perfect example of how the patriarchy hurts everyone. We're predisposed to make judgments based stereotypes of sexes and genders rather than the realities of individuals, and everyone loses.

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The only case I know of where the dad got the kids was when the mother still failed to pay rent even tho he was sending her child support and spent all day at home screaming at her sons.
Wouldn't it have been better if the authorities involved in this situation had judged it based on the realities of the people involved rather than assumptions about how they would act due to their sex and gender?

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There was a best of craigslist post a while back that talked about how if you are a man, you are on your own, there isn't societal support that there is for women, suck it up and accept the fact of our society.
Maybe if we stopped automatically assuming men should handle it on their own because men are the Competent Handlers of Things and Situations, men could establish more support systems for themselves without being looked down on for being "weak."
The writer of that post also had the option of working to improve societal support for men in crisis instead of complaining.

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That being said, I'm with boogiepop in her conclusion, people on either extreme need to be...well yeah, go back a few pages to read.
I think it's assumed in any reasonable and rational discussion that extremism is bad.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 01:32:38 pm by randompvg »
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Offline MiriaRose

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2010, 07:55:55 pm »
Also, at work women get better breaks for having children.  Men can take an unpaid bonding leave.  Women can take a paid maternity leave, and if they want within a year take the same unpaid bonding leave.  So much for equality.
Here is an interesting article. I had a much better source about how pregnancy affects women in the workplace, but I can't seem to find the link.

EDIT: Here's an article about pregnancy discrimination.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 07:57:03 pm by MiriaRose »
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