Author Topic: Modern feminism and you!  (Read 39079 times)

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Offline reppy

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #150 on: October 29, 2010, 12:58:52 pm »
I haven't really been attention too closely, but I haven't really seen much in terms of source citing on either side.  If someone asks for one, sure, try and dig it up.  But this isn't a formal debate nor is it going to be published in a peer-reviewed journal.  So, we should all prolly lighten up a lil'.. ^^

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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #151 on: October 29, 2010, 01:06:57 pm »
I haven't really been attention too closely, but I haven't really seen much in terms of source citing on either side.  If someone asks for one, sure, try and dig it up.  But this isn't a formal debate nor is it going to be published in a peer-reviewed journal.  So, we should all prolly lighten up a lil'.. ^^

I agree generally with what you are saying here. When there are statements that could have literally life-or-death consequences, as is the case with some of the examples in this thread, is the only time I think it's important to be somewhat clear even in a chat thread.
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #152 on: October 29, 2010, 03:52:44 pm »
(Speaking as a grumpy old mod who needs more sleep and less kids on his dadgum lawn.)

So, feminism as it relates to our lives... sounds like an interesting subject. Anyone feel like discussing it?  :-\

Domestic violence and sexual abuse - are these feminist issues, criminal issues, or somewhere in between?
Hormones - is anyone familiar with studies for or against the hypothesis that they have an effect on mental stability that makes "separate but equal" treatment rational?
Cooperativity and altruism versus adversarial confrontation as different means to the end of equality - what role does each of these have in different situations?
Discrimination in the workplace and elsewhere - has it changed form, diminished, become more subtle, somewhere in between, or none of the above?
And so on.

There are a whole lot of subjects that have been brought up which pertain to the topic, and which have a lot of life left in them. Meta-argumentation isn't one of them.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #153 on: October 29, 2010, 06:54:49 pm »
I agree. It would be interesting to see if anyone has successfully made the legal argument that Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka, KS (if I am correctly recalling the US Supreme Court case that overturned Jim Crow laws & declared segregation by race illegal) extrapolates to rendering "separate but equal" unconstitutional for other delineations, e.g., gender, orientation.
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Offline @random

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #154 on: October 30, 2010, 07:11:33 am »
(Speaking personally)

Not everybody remembers it, but Brown v. Board was necessary to overturn another Supreme Court decision (Plessy v. Ferguson) which held that "separate but equal" was valid. Some of the justifications for it were the same as we're hearing now - pseudo-scientific explanations were used to rationalize why black people were supposedly intellectually inferior. It was called "scientific racism", a term that mercifully died in the '50s or so. I hope that in 2110, people will be saying the same about how scientific sexism died back in the 2050s.

"Separate but equal" jobs are still with us now as a matter of fact, if not law. When I was in college working in a grocery store, I was the only male cashier. Females were supposed to follow the ladder of cashier - head cashier - office manager, while males were supposed to follow the ladder of bagger - produce/stocking - manager in one of those departments - assistant manager - store manager. After all, women (supposedly) can't do heavy lifting or strenuous work like men can. When I tried to apply at other places, they'd let me work as a bagger - but would take untrained women over me, despite the fact I had years of experience. And I still see the same kind of stuff happening now. If nothing else, the fact people have argued for it here demonstrates it.

The reductio ad absurdum of doing away with "separate but equal" as applied to gender would be to say that it invites mandatory unisex bathrooms, changing rooms, etc. Most people genuinely would be horrified at the prospect, and find it abominable. But you know... that exact same argument (visceral dislike, i.e. "Would you really want a --- to --- beside you?") was made wrt racial segregation.

Nonsexualized nudity is not unheard of. An anecdote I heard a looooong time ago was that in Japan after World War II, the occupying Americans were horrified at the concept of unisex hot springs and public baths. They demanded that they be segregated by gender forthwith - which the Japanese didn't quite understand, but complied by putting up a rope so that men would stay on one side and women on the other. :D With increasing Western influence, things did change - but there are still some unisex onsens around, vestiges of the past. And even in Western culture, if nothing else, one would think we realize nudity isn't inherently sexual by virtue of the fact that we accept same-sex nudity (even though we no longer try to deny that gay people exist).

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the path to gender equality is for us to relax our custom of seeing each other's bodies as nothing but sex objects. (And I'm really not trying to start a discussion of locker rooms in this thread.) I'm just saying that even in the extreme cases, we should be willing to question our assumptions about what make men and women different, and how far that should be taken. Actually, come to think of it... I guess I am questioning the validity of viewing each other first as sex objects and second as people.

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« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 08:09:26 am by randompvg »
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Offline Malaria

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #155 on: October 30, 2010, 02:05:14 pm »
Sorry I haven't been posting at all these last few days. I've been using my breaks from college work to derp around in the Cosplay forum. >>

As for what's been going on lately, while it's good to have a properly structured debate, excluding or outright ignoring anyone who can't participate along the clearly defined lines of classic debate structure is a really great way to strangle the conversation. That's even a recognized tactic in silencing discussions of privilege! Which I think we'd like to avoid. At least I know I'd like to, since I don't have the formal education needed to recognize when my argument is veering off the perfectly groomed paths of logic, and it'd really suck to have to exclude myself from a discussion I started. So let's try to take one another on good faith, assume we are trying to engage fairly, and do so on the discussion topic of feminism and not on meta-argumentation.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #156 on: October 30, 2010, 02:33:50 pm »
^ Thank you.
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #157 on: November 03, 2010, 02:28:26 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/iamagirldoco#p/u/3/L83-Qd6FyN8
"I Am a Girl" documentary from Australia. Profiles 10 girls, including a 15-yr-old pushed into sex work to support a family of 19.
Statistics cited in trailer include 1 in 4 girls will be sexually assaulted before age of 18. 62 million girls are denied access to education. A girl dies every minute giving birth.
The claim is that there is no demographic subgroup (e.g., by race, ethnicity, religion, etc. or by class) that more increases one's exposure to violence, poverty, disease, illiteracy, etc., than simply being born female.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 02:32:48 pm by RemSaverem »
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
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Offline PhantmK

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #158 on: November 07, 2010, 04:30:52 am »
Okay so I just read through the entire thread. (By the way some amazing arguments, be proud of yourself folks.) Which when you look back at all of it, there is a LOT. But I feel it was a worthy read.

Before I even start please realize that it is essentially 5 in the morning and I have been sick the past 2 days, so I apologize for any discrepancy, but I felt if I did not type this now I would forget all my thoughts.

First off I am a male. Secondly I am a feminist although not very actively.

Now a couple points and this first one goes out to men in general: BE AWARE you do have a time of the month as well! Yes its true, once every month or so men have a hormonal imbalance just like women. I have read it and heard it for years and if you don't believe me read up: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=431376 (Yes I understand there is hyperlink but I am trying to get to bed so please forgive my laziness.) It is not exactly the same thing but we do have a form of it. Get used to the idea, really take a good look at yourself for a few months and you will find days where you have felt "off" from your normal self.

Another thing and I know it has been discussed however this is my view: Feminism tends to get associated with Females and only female equality an awful lot and its not hard to see why. But in case you don't multiple memory studies in psychology (I just studied this in Psychology 201 I can post the book name later if you wish to research) show that the average (most common) way memories are stored is by association. And due to the beginning of the word Feminism being the same as Female (Fem) and the fact that females are mentioned in the meaning of the word. This association is what stays with the average person whom has only every so often heard the word without looking into it with any further detail.
However, Feminism as a whole goes both ways. Feminism is about equality for both males and females. SO if you believe that men should have the same equality as women or women should have the same equality as men, you have a feminist belief. (Being nerdy I know but ex: if Feminism means  XX = XY then Feminism also means  XY = XX)

Okay now that I have that bit off my chest I did notice something else that started to be discussed and then got veered away from.
Morals. All equality is different in the perception of each person. So the argument at hand is one of the hardest type, one of morality. Convincing someone to change their moral code can be one of the hardest things you could ever do. Also, when dealing with morality, you have to consider that how they were raised, how they were educated, personal events and interactions, and where all of those things happened. All of these things and more can go into just one of the aspects of the equality attempting to be reached. Even if it is trying to be reached by both sides, there can be a breakdown of allies in the argument let alone foes.

My thought is this: What, where, and how do you think equality should be? And if you were to be lenient toward letting some part of your ideal be compromised what would it be?

Now I agree and disagree with a lot of different things that were said, (such as female circumcision ~Shudder in disgust~ which is awful) But for the time being to keep it simple; I mainly agree with Malaria on many of her points. Although I do have some different views which I will discuss later with a fresh mind.

Thanks for the evening of intrigue and thought, Hope to be discussing this again later today.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 11:47:26 am by PhantmK »
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Offline RemSaverem

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Re: Modern feminism and you!
« Reply #159 on: November 07, 2010, 07:10:57 am »
@ Phantom, thank you, that was awesome. @ Malaria, since I didn't get off work in time to meet you at Radien's, maybe we could meet for tea with Roget?
Ellen. 2003: Fanfic panelist & contest judge.
2004: Beta Station Coord. 2005: Fan Creation Station Coord.;pre-event assistant to the con chair.2006: Fanfic Mgr/C.S. Coord.
2007, 8, 9, 10: Fan Creation Manager. 2011: Writing & Editing Coord (Publicity).