Author Topic: DJ Hero  (Read 6002 times)

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Offline Mr Silmero

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DJ Hero
« on: October 17, 2009, 11:02:15 pm »
Seems as if there is no topic about this yet so I will get the ball rolling.


There are 10 days and counting till the release of DJ Hero for all major systems and I want to get everyone's basic opinion on what you think about it. I for one cannot wait till it comes out as it seems to be a rather enjoyable game with a new'ish concept with tracks that sound good (for the most part) and a controller that is fun to dink around on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XGbfGdxv2k right there is my (and many other people's) main push to buying (Note: Trading in old games) this particular title, everything else is just icing on the top of the lovely Daft Punk filled cake that is DJ Hero.

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 12:29:10 am »
i played it yesterday and hated it.
the idea is cool, but there are 2 reasons it sucks.

1. it is a crappy and cheap beatmania knock off.

B. the cross fader, and record are both too easy to move. the middle setting on the cross fader is too hard to get back to after cross fading either way. its ridiculous.

Offline DancingTofu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 12:54:13 am »
From the MEW Con forums:
That wasn't short.

Okay, so I was going to actually go check this out, but after watching the tutorial videos, I see this game being boring, tedious, or both.  I can't see this game being enjoyable at all.  Once again, there are no graduated timing windows, meaning there's no way to gauge your syncing.  This is one of the reasons why I find Guitar Hero unplayable.  The timing windows are crap and the lag exacerbates it.  Maybe this game's actually properly synced and it's not a problem, but I still dislike the fact that it's hit-or-miss, especially given how simple the game is.

The layout really bothers me too.  There shouldn't be buttons on the turntable.  How is that supposed to emulate a DJ experience?

This just looks like a haphazard effort in general.  At least guitar hero had more buttons and added a whammy bar.  Nothing about this game is appealing to me at this point.  Sure, it's cool that they used ball-bearings and vinyl surfaces on the controller, but the control layout in general is crap. 

On top of all that, this game looks less enjoyable to watch than Bejeweled.  The game play seems entirely uninteresting, the controls look painfully droll, and the game doesn't even succeed at what it's supposed to accomplish: be a party game.  After people get over the brief phase of "wtf is that?" I doubt it will hold any substance.  The fact that they're planning a sequel of such a poorly crafted concept baffles me.  I don't see how this game made it beyond conception.

Probably what bothers me the most about this game isn't even the game itself; it's the intent.  When BeatMania came out, it was stupid for the same reason: pretending to be a DJ is retarded.  DJing is about three things:
1. play the right songs at the right time to satisfy the crowd.
2. manage fades to influence mood changes and make the production smooth
3. experts only: mix and merge sounds to make the experience unique
Neither this game nor BeatMania accomplished, or even tried to accomplish any of these.  The reason is because that would be work, and nobody wants to play work.  So, BeatMania settled to be a challenging game where the player focuses on essentially playing the music.  It's not about being a DJ; the controller becomes a dynamic musical instrument.  DJ Hero seems to be caught on the notion of trying to make the player into a DJ, which it doesn't.  If this game came with a couple turntables and a crossfader, a few modulators, some pitchbend knobs, and a bunch of intoxicated teens, I'd be willing to say that this game was about being a DJ.  At this point, it looks like the primary purpose of this game it to be a really bad poser.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 12:57:32 am »
i love you tofu.
you are pure awesome.

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 01:47:50 am »
From the MEW Con forums:
That wasn't short.

Okay, so I was going to actually go check this out, but after watching the tutorial videos, I see this game being boring, tedious, or both.  I can't see this game being enjoyable at all.  Once again, there are no graduated timing windows, meaning there's no way to gauge your syncing.  This is one of the reasons why I find Guitar Hero unplayable.  The timing windows are crap and the lag exacerbates it.  Maybe this game's actually properly synced and it's not a problem, but I still dislike the fact that it's hit-or-miss, especially given how simple the game is.

The layout really bothers me too.  There shouldn't be buttons on the turntable.  How is that supposed to emulate a DJ experience?

This just looks like a haphazard effort in general.  At least guitar hero had more buttons and added a whammy bar.  Nothing about this game is appealing to me at this point.  Sure, it's cool that they used ball-bearings and vinyl surfaces on the controller, but the control layout in general is crap.  

On top of all that, this game looks less enjoyable to watch than Bejeweled.  The game play seems entirely uninteresting, the controls look painfully droll, and the game doesn't even succeed at what it's supposed to accomplish: be a party game.  After people get over the brief phase of "wtf is that?" I doubt it will hold any substance.  The fact that they're planning a sequel of such a poorly crafted concept baffles me.  I don't see how this game made it beyond conception.

Probably what bothers me the most about this game isn't even the game itself; it's the intent.  When BeatMania came out, it was stupid for the same reason: pretending to be a DJ is retarded.  DJing is about three things:
1. play the right songs at the right time to satisfy the crowd.
2. manage fades to influence mood changes and make the production smooth
3. experts only: mix and merge sounds to make the experience unique
Neither this game nor BeatMania accomplished, or even tried to accomplish any of these.  The reason is because that would be work, and nobody wants to play work.  So, BeatMania settled to be a challenging game where the player focuses on essentially playing the music.  It's not about being a DJ; the controller becomes a dynamic musical instrument.  DJ Hero seems to be caught on the notion of trying to make the player into a DJ, which it doesn't.  If this game came with a couple turntables and a crossfader, a few modulators, some pitchbend knobs, and a bunch of intoxicated teens, I'd be willing to say that this game was about being a DJ.  At this point, it looks like the primary purpose of this game it to be a really bad poser.
The intent of all music games is to emulate something (except for KBM , which is playing piano). Does this bother you equally about DDR?

The rest is an analysis of the game without even playing it. You're writing off a game on points that are completely subjective before even playing it.... That's what killed DDR in the eyes of the gaming mainstream.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 01:52:14 am by ha~ma »

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 01:51:23 am »
The intent of all music games is to emulate something (except for KBM , which is playing piano). Does this bother you equally about DDR?

The rest is an analysis of the game without even playing it. You're writing off a game before even playing it.... That's what killed DDR in the eyes of the gaming mainstream.
except i totally did play it yesterday, and i hated it.

DDR actually has some quality gameplay, good control system, well designed controller, and a great fanbase.

DJ hero has crappy gameplay, a terrible controller, poor design, and the fanbase is pretty much made up of guitar hero fanboys.

That being said, i do enjoy my fair share of guitar hero, as guitar freaks is too hard to find these days.

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 01:58:28 am »
The intent of all music games is to emulate something (except for KBM , which is playing piano). Does this bother you equally about DDR?

The rest is an analysis of the game without even playing it. You're writing off a game before even playing it.... That's what killed DDR in the eyes of the gaming mainstream.
except i totally did play it yesterday, and i hated it.

DDR actually has some quality gameplay, good control system, well designed controller, and a great fanbase.

DJ hero has crappy gameplay, a terrible controller, poor design, and the fanbase is pretty much made up of guitar hero fanboys.

That being said, i do enjoy my fair share of guitar hero, as guitar freaks is too hard to find these days.
I was talking to tofu, wasn't even addressing you. The points I was addressing weren't even in your post >_>. Anyway I'll gladly debunk the rest of your post.

DDR has some horribly unpolished AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED CHARTS for most of the game, has good control yes (to a degree, the hardware delay is too great for EX marv window so this point is debatable), a questionably designed controller that forces arcade owners to buy new proprietary sensors every couple of months, and a fanbase that can't take criticism or critically analyze stepcharts.

How long have you played rhythm games? What do you know about what makes a good stepchart / notechart good?

Guitar Hero is a better game than Guitar Freaks sadly. GF may be a competitive game due to it having timing windowsbut it is terrible due to the fact you have to pick early on everything or you get echo boos.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 02:31:24 am by ha~ma »

Offline legoman60

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 12:46:01 pm »
Addressing peoples points in no particular order:

Graduated timing windows are very useful for measuring true skill in a rhythm game yes, but for games like guitar hero the point of the game is not to hit the note with precise timing but just to hit the note. Comparing to DDR is not truly possible as the games, although both rhythm games, have completely different aims.

DDR vs. GH/RB:

DDR is meant to be highly competitive, either against yourself (trying to beat your last score), or against other people. I can almost guarantee that there is a high percentage of people who play songs on DDR not because they enjoy listening to them, but because they are considered hard to play/beat/get a high score on/etc (this is not to say that no one enjoys listening to the difficult songs). There are a couple reasons bad step charts exist: the main cause is people want to play the songs they enjoy (but have little skill making charts) but can't find a chart for their favorite song so they make one, or someone just wants to make a chart for a random song for the sake of making a chart (I know I fall into the previous category, minus the chart making).

(Include Rock Band in this section as well, as Guitar Hero and Rock Band are very similar) Guitar Hero's aim, on the other hand, is for people to play the songs they like hearing (the reason for so much DLC) and to simulate playing them on an instument (how ever poor of a simulation it may be). To this end the binary timing structure works very well (simple hit/miss structure). The goal is to hit the correct notes with some accuracy, not perfect accuracy. If you think of playing an actual guitar (or other instument), the average person is not going to notice that you (the music expert, for arguments sake) are play some notes 0.1 seconds early/late as long as you are playing the right notes. Guitar Hero has become a competitive game because its players have made it so, and even if you do not want to compete you can still enjoy the game.

DJ Hero vs. Beatmania near the same argument as DDR vs. GH/RB. Although I have not played either extensively (one because I don't care much, the other because it is not out yet), I can tell you from my experience as a gamer (rhythm games and more) that they each have their own niche.

From the M.E.W.con forums:
Quote from: Mr Silmero
OK I finally get it- Beatmania is all about getting so good at a song that you impress people and feel good, DJ Hero is all about having fun and playing it as a party game, THAT is the main difference between them. Granted DJ Hero has some songs that are hard to play just by looking at them but nothing compared to Beatmania.

Although I do not entirely agree with the impress people part, Mr. Slimero has hit the nail on the head here.

From the MEW Con forums:

When BeatMania came out, it was stupid for the same reason: pretending to be a DJ is retarded...

Neither this game nor BeatMania accomplished, or even tried to accomplish any of these.  The reason is because that would be work, and nobody wants to play work.  So, BeatMania settled to be a challenging game where the player focuses on essentially playing the music.  It's not about being a DJ; the controller becomes a dynamic musical instrument.

DJ Hero is trying to simulate a few aspects of being a DJ. Fully simulating it would involve a massive controller that would be hard to play let alone understand. BeatMania has settled on being a challenging (competitive) game, where as DJ Hero is settling on being a party game.

In the end you can not compare DJ Hero Vs. Beatmania and Guitar Hero Vs. DanceDance Revolution (and Guitar Freaks for that matter) because, although they fall into the same general category as rhythm games, they are different types of games (party games Vs. competitive games). It is the same as comparing Rock and Country, although they are both music (and they use some of the same instruments), they are different types of music.

For the record: I enjoy both DDR and GH/RB, and am looking forward to DJH.

Also, if you are going to debate games (or anything for that matter), do it in an intelligent manner, not "This game sux/is crappy/terrible/poor/cheap/etc.", instead "I don't like ThisGame for A, B, and C reasons (actual reasons, not my earlier example), and I feel that ThatGame is better for X, Y, and Z reasons (again actual reasons)" remembering the entire time that this is all a matter of opinion. It is also a good idea to avoid attempting to compare dissimilar things (DJ Hero and DDR, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy (not counting the MMO's), football and basketball... otherwise known as This Subcategory vs. That Subcategory of the same general type).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 12:52:20 pm by legoman60 »
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Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 07:47:37 pm »
DDR's aim was not initially competitive and that's why it has fallen flat on its face (see third para). It is completely possible to compare the two because they are mechanically casual with competitive elements that are not entirely fleshed out.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about on the  next point: ITG has custom songs, DDR doesn't. There is no reason Konami should be releasing a game with charts that don't make sense musically or patternwise. Guitar Hero and Rockband have been doing this since day one. You should probably play the games / know a little more about what you're talking about before commenting on this... Mr Silmero too.

I think another issue is that whenever a game has scoring, it WILL be played competitively. The initial aim of the game doesn't matter as much as how the game ends up serving its fanbase. Many cookie cutter or "casual" games end up being played competitively. In the end DDR fails as a competitive game and so does GH / RB / GF / DJ HERO.

Basically this topic boils down to many people mudslinging many different uninformed opinions.

P.S. there are uniform things in rhythm games that are done right or wrong.
Scoring,  presence of (feasible yet challenging) timing windows, charts that musically make sense and sync of the chart to the music. On these points you can fairly say that there is one game better than another. I'm not saying "GUITARZ -> DANCING ITS FOR FRUITZ HUTRRRR". I'm saying that all of these games are doing things wrong on the basic front, GH / RB less so than DDR / GF. Beatmania has a ton of problems too (certain playstyles are not feasible, timing windows are too small, sync is incredibly stupid, syncing is not consistent from version to version), and I by no means hold this game or any of its revisions on a pedestal. As a competitive rhythm game and as a casual game, ITG2 is probably the most complete. It's not as complex as some other games, but it has the basics down very well.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 07:59:27 pm by ha~ma »

Offline legoman60

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 08:54:17 pm »
DDR's aim was not initially competitive and that's why it has fallen flat on its face (see third para). It is completely possible to compare the two because they are mechanically casual with competitive elements that are not entirely fleshed out.

DDR has evolved to be competitive, like Beatmania. In part due to it's fan base, in part due to the mechanics of the game working very well in competitive situations. I never said it was initially competitive, check your reading. Also, if you look into DDR is a fairly big thing in japan, therefore it hasn't exactly fallen on its face (possibly because statistically American's are fat and lazy).

You don't seem to know what you're talking about on the  next point: ITG has custom songs, DDR doesn't. There is no reason Konami should be releasing a game with charts that don't make sense musically or patternwise. Guitar Hero and Rockband have been doing this since day one. You should probably play the games / know a little more about what you're talking about before commenting on this... Mr Silmero too.

ITG has fan made custom songs. Meaning that it is more likely for the step charts to be bad then not. Rock Band (and to a lesser extent Guitar Hero) have hundreds of professionally made DownLoadable Content (DLC). Which means they are statistically going to be higher quality than the custom songs you are going to find for ITG. Konami is brain dead when it comes to DDR, we know this. A great many of the Guitar Hero charts and Rock Band charts that I have encountered (after playing through Guitar Hero's 1-3, and well over 100 different songs on Rock Band) are fairly good. Yes, some of them have problems, this is going to happen in any game regardless of what it is (there is no perfect game). If you are going to call people out, do some research.

I think another issue is that whenever a game has scoring, it WILL be played competitively. The initial aim of the game doesn't matter as much as how the game ends up serving its fanbase. Many cookie cutter or "casual" games end up being played competitively. In the end DDR fails as a competitive game and so does GH / RB / GF / DJ HERO.

If a game exists, it will be played competitively, plain and simple. Even if it is just speed runs (or some really cool TAS runs that I have seen {btw this is not a TAS vs. natural debate so don't start}). Again, I wasn't speaking of the initial aim of a game, but what the aim is now (which is how it has served it's fanbase, yes). DDR has become a competitive game where as Guitar Hero remains primarily a party game. The only reason that DDR (and ITG for that matter) fails as a competitive game is because there is not enough people to compete in it (possibly because of the intimidation factor from the good players to the newer people, whether intentional or not).

On top of all of this, this topic has derailed horribly. Requesting mod split.

P.S. on a side note i found a really cool Chrono Trigger TAS. Search Youtube for Chrono Trigger Inichi and you will find it. Its a really trippy 21 min run. Now I'm off to make a TAS topic.

Edit: Response to the P.S. that got added while i was typing.
P.S. there are uniform things in rhythm games that are done right or wrong.
Scoring,  presence of (feasible yet challenging) timing windows, charts that musically make sense and sync of the chart to the music. On these points you can fairly say that there is one game better than another. I'm not saying "GUITARZ -> DANCING ITS FOR FRUITZ HUTRRRR". I'm saying that all of these games are doing things wrong on the basic front, GH / RB less so than DDR / GF. Beatmania has a ton of problems too (certain playstyles are not feasible, timing windows are too small, sync is incredibly stupid, syncing is not consistent from version to version), and I by no means hold this game or any of its revisions on a pedestal. As a competitive rhythm game and as a casual game, ITG2 is probably the most complete. It's not as complex as some other games, but it has the basics down very well.

So in a nut shell, what you have done is ranked majorly known rhythm games in a nice masked manner, DDR/GF<GH/RB<ITG2. In other words, at the top is ITG2, I smell a fanboy/fangirl.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 09:14:19 pm by legoman60 »
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Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 09:41:36 pm »
DDR's aim was not initially competitive and that's why it has fallen flat on its face (see third para). It is completely possible to compare the two because they are mechanically casual with competitive elements that are not entirely fleshed out.

DDR has evolved to be competitive, like Beatmania. In part due to it's fan base, in part due to the mechanics of the game working very well in competitive situations. I never said it was initially competitive, check your reading. Also, if you look into DDR is a fairly big thing in japan, therefore it hasn't exactly fallen on its face (possibly because statistically American's are fat and lazy).

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Many games are played competitively then abandoned like DDR. And last time I was in Japan DDR was dead. It still hasn't seen a revival. None of the top players still play anymore.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about on the  next point: ITG has custom songs, DDR doesn't. There is no reason Konami should be releasing a game with charts that don't make sense musically or patternwise. Guitar Hero and Rockband have been doing this since day one. You should probably play the games / know a little more about what you're talking about before commenting on this... Mr Silmero too.

ITG has fan made custom songs. Meaning that it is more likely for the step charts to be bad then not. Rock Band (and to a lesser extent Guitar Hero) have hundreds of professionally made DownLoadable Content (DLC). Which means they are statistically going to be higher quality than the custom songs you are going to find for ITG. Konami is brain dead when it comes to DDR, we know this. A great many of the Guitar Hero charts and Rock Band charts that I have encountered (after playing through Guitar Hero's 1-3, and well over 100 different songs on Rock Band) are fairly good. Yes, some of them have problems, this is going to happen in any game regardless of what it is (there is no perfect game). If you are going to call people out, do some research.

That's completely untrue. You obviously haven't looked at the ITG community's step packs that come out very regularly and have easily bested the content originally in the game. Again, know the game before you talk. I was already aware of DLC on GH and RB.

I think another issue is that whenever a game has scoring, it WILL be played competitively. The initial aim of the game doesn't matter as much as how the game ends up serving its fanbase. Many cookie cutter or "casual" games end up being played competitively. In the end DDR fails as a competitive game and so does GH / RB / GF / DJ HERO.

If a game exists, it will be played competitively, plain and simple. Even if it is just speed runs (or some really cool TAS runs that I have seen {btw this is not a TAS vs. natural debate so don't start}). Again, I wasn't speaking of the initial aim of a game, but what the aim is now (which is how it has served it's fanbase, yes). DDR has become a competitive game where as Guitar Hero remains primarily a party game. The only reason that DDR (and ITG for that matter) fails as a competitive game is because there is not enough people to compete in it (possibly because of the intimidation factor from the good players to the newer people, whether intentional or not).
No. You're wrong. They fail as competitive games for deeper reasons that I already mentioned. You've already proven you don't know anything about the games, so why do you continue to post like you do?

Edit: Response to the P.S. that got added while i was typing.
P.S. there are uniform things in rhythm games that are done right or wrong.
Scoring,  presence of (feasible yet challenging) timing windows, charts that musically make sense and sync of the chart to the music. On these points you can fairly say that there is one game better than another. I'm not saying "GUITARZ -> DANCING ITS FOR FRUITZ HUTRRRR". I'm saying that all of these games are doing things wrong on the basic front, GH / RB less so than DDR / GF. Beatmania has a ton of problems too (certain playstyles are not feasible, timing windows are too small, sync is incredibly stupid, syncing is not consistent from version to version), and I by no means hold this game or any of its revisions on a pedestal. As a competitive rhythm game and as a casual game, ITG2 is probably the most complete. It's not as complex as some other games, but it has the basics down very well.

So in a nut shell, what you have done is ranked majorly known rhythm games in a nice masked manner, DDR/GF<GH/RB<ITG2. In other words, at the top is ITG2, I smell a fanboy/fangirl.
I'm just calling this from an objective standpoint, which game has the most of the aforementioned elements together in a complete package from the getgo. I never even played ITG competitively, I only played DDR seriously. By the time ITG2 came out I lost interest in rhythm games as a whole. I never said ITG was perfect (has some gleaming flaws regarding legitimacy, consistency between machines, other hacking related issues) like a fanboy would. I'm just calling it like it is. Is that fanboyism? No.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 09:52:34 pm by ha~ma »

Offline legoman60

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2009, 09:48:38 pm »
Again, thread has derailed horribly... Refusing to continue discussion until modsplit
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Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 09:52:59 pm »
Refusing to continue discussion until modsplit
They can splice a topic, so why not continue here and have whatever we say spliced there?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 02:37:53 am by ha~ma »

Offline DancingTofu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 01:17:53 am »
Too much overlap.  I can't split it.  Don't really see how this is all that off-topic either.  DJ Hero is the rhythm gaming industry's latest concoction; it makes complete sense to discuss the history of the industry and compare it to other games that have come before it.

The intent of all music games is to emulate something (except for KBM , which is playing piano). Does this bother you equally about DDR?
It bothers me when people think they can dance because they can play DDR; hardly anyone (if anyone at all) considers DDR to be emulating actual dancing anymore though; it's just "a game you play with your feet!"  To answer your question more concisely though, yes, it does annoy me that DDR and DanceManiaX were made with the initial intent of making the player think they're dancing. I don't have the issue so much with Paraplegic Paradise because the charts are designed with real dance charts in mind.  Likewise, it's dumb to think GF/GH actually emulate playing a guitar.

Quote
The rest is an analysis of the game without even playing it. You're writing off a game on points that are completely subjective before even playing it.... That's what killed DDR in the eyes of the gaming mainstream.
I would strongly disagree that I'm judging the game on invalid analysis.  I will admit that I'm a bit of a BeatMania fanboy, but I try not to be.  I understand that BeatMania has flaws, though I wouldn't agree that the timing windows are too harsh or that the syncing is problematic (though I would tend to agree with you more on the second point).  I am judging DJ Hero critically by watching gameplay videos.  I have not encountered a rhythm game which has been more enjoyable to play than it appears to be when I first watch someone play it (and do well).  If DJ Hero holds true to that pattern, I would expect to hate it.  Even Guitar Hero, which I had similarly biased opinions of before ever playing it, looked fun to play when I watched people play it.  This game appears to range in difficulty from boring to tedious.  That's not to say it has no redeeming qualities, just that they're buried under an overwhelming heap of flaws that succeed at repelling me.

Furthermore, I'm not passing some terrible judgment here; I'm just presenting a justification for why I don't feel like playing this game.  If I were judging it for the sake of determining whether it needed to be banned from con space or something drastic like that, I would be a lot more thorough, but I see no real reason to be anal about judging a game that I don't ever intend to play.


Zack, I would argue that it's not only is it perfectly rational and reasonable to compare DJ Hero with other rhythm games, it's also perfectly rational to compare Rock and Country music, and people do all the time.  This is because it's an entertainment industry.  I like Symphonic Metal for a lot of perfectly good reasons.  I like Folk Rock for a lot of other perfectly good reasons.  There are a number of factual comparisons that I can make between the two that have nothing to do with my opinion.

Likewise, we can compare different rhythm games critically without being futile; but we can't really call any game "better" than others on a universal level because there are differences in what people like.  For instance, if I'm not mistaken, ha~ma holds Keyboard Mania in high regards for a lot of reasons, and one of those reasons is because it actually IS just playing piano; there's no fudging of lines; it's the real thing.  He also is very critical of games with poorly synced timing.  I don't really care that much about latency on rhythm games.  That's probably partly because he has a lot more skill with rhythm games than I do, and partly just because it's not something I'm super-concerned about.  However, if you give me 30ms of latency in a fighter or a racing game, I'll stab you, because that's B.S and makes those games unplayable IMO.  Again, it's a matter of what the player values.

That said, I put a lot of my opinion into my judgment of DJH, which makes it a poor review, despite the fact that I stressed that I am merely stating and justifying my opinions based on watching the game being played.  The best reviews are opinion-free; merely presenting the facts and letting the reader judge the game accordingly.  Don't interpret my reception of this game as a review, because it's not; it's an opinionated criticism largely influenced by pre-conceived notions and prejudices.
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Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 02:35:57 am »
I would strongly disagree that I'm judging the game on invalid analysis.  I will admit that I'm a bit of a BeatMania fanboy, but I try not to be.  I understand that BeatMania has flaws, though I wouldn't agree that the timing windows are too harsh or that the syncing is problematic (though I would tend to agree with you more on the second point).  I am judging DJ Hero critically by watching gameplay videos.  I have not encountered a rhythm game which has been more enjoyable to play than it appears to be when I first watch someone play it (and do well).  If DJ Hero holds true to that pattern, I would expect to hate it.  Even Guitar Hero, which I had similarly biased opinions of before ever playing it, looked fun to play when I watched people play it.  This game appears to range in difficulty from boring to tedious.  That's not to say it has no redeeming qualities, just that they're buried under an overwhelming heap of flaws that succeed at repelling me.

Furthermore, I'm not passing some terrible judgment here; I'm just presenting a justification for why I don't feel like playing this game.  If I were judging it for the sake of determining whether it needed to be banned from con space or something drastic like that, I would be a lot more thorough, but I see no real reason to be anal about judging a game that I don't ever intend to play.


Zack, I would argue that it's not only is it perfectly rational and reasonable to compare DJ Hero with other rhythm games, it's also perfectly rational to compare Rock and Country music, and people do all the time.  This is because it's an entertainment industry.  I like Symphonic Metal for a lot of perfectly good reasons.  I like Folk Rock for a lot of other perfectly good reasons.  There are a number of factual comparisons that I can make between the two that have nothing to do with my opinion.

Likewise, we can compare different rhythm games critically without being futile; but we can't really call any game "better" than others on a universal level because there are differences in what people like.  For instance, if I'm not mistaken, ha~ma holds Keyboard Mania in high regards for a lot of reasons, and one of those reasons is because it actually IS just playing piano; there's no fudging of lines; it's the real thing.  He also is very critical of games with poorly synced timing.  I don't really care that much about latency on rhythm games.  That's probably partly because he has a lot more skill with rhythm games than I do, and partly just because it's not something I'm super-concerned about.  However, if you give me 30ms of latency in a fighter or a racing game, I'll stab you, because that's B.S and makes those games unplayable IMO.  Again, it's a matter of what the player values.

That said, I put a lot of my opinion into my judgment of DJH, which makes it a poor review, despite the fact that I stressed that I am merely stating and justifying my opinions based on watching the game being played.  The best reviews are opinion-free; merely presenting the facts and letting the reader judge the game accordingly.  Don't interpret my reception of this game as a review, because it's not; it's an opinionated criticism largely influenced by pre-conceived notions and prejudices.

Okay, so basically you're saying that objectivity doesn't matter in your rundown of DJH. I guess that works, but not when someone wants better reasons than "I watched a vid and didn't like it". Whatever though. As a game I really don't even hold KBM in that high of a regard. It's fun but has a very skewed learning curve and needs more songs. It also has issues with the CS version costing way to much, and the arcade vers being too hard to find. It's not that great of a game and I'll openly say that. I just found it fun to play for score at the time (when I had nothing else better to do really). You can call some rhythm games better on objective points like I pointed out previously.

Offline DancingTofu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 11:08:14 pm »
True.  I can't really defend a definite critical opinion of this game; I just don't really feel excited by it.
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Offline KogaRyu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 02:13:59 pm »
Playing this game was not fun. Did not enjoy it.
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Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 02:14:41 pm »
Playing this game was not fun. Did not enjoy it.

Offline legoman60

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 03:39:33 pm »
Playing this game was not fun. Did not enjoy it.
opinion is opinion... but is still welcome

But seriously, I try and not judge games until I have at least played them. This is of course barring dislike of the premise of the game itself. If you genuinely did not like the idea behind the game then just don't post about it... but if you are judging a game based on preconceived notions of it, whether it be you've played "similar" games or something like that, then at least try it before posting about it. Ergo, the reason of my quote. KogaRyu tried the game at least, before coming to the "I do not like this game" conclusion. I guess the moral of this story would be to keep an open mind, at least with games. Whats the worse that can happen? (if you are smart and don't buy the game right away) You loose 5-30min of your time.
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Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 04:37:58 pm »
If you genuinely did not like the idea behind the game then just don't post about it...

Well that's a little presumptuous. We're all entitled to post our opinions, especially when they involve video games rather than people.

I have never played the game and I didn't plan to, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.
I was interested in seeing what songs they use, though, so I might download some of the mash-ups.
I thought the idea of buttons on the turntable was pretty weird, I had expected the turntable to be treated more like the strum bar in guitar hero rather than the buttons.

The only part of Tofu's analysis that I would argue with is his use of the term "painfully droll".
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Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 08:03:24 pm »
If you genuinely did not like the idea behind the game then just don't post about it...

Well that's a little presumptuous. We're all entitled to post our opinions, especially when they involve video games rather than people.

I have never played the game and I didn't plan to, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.
I was interested in seeing what songs they use, though, so I might download some of the mash-ups.
I thought the idea of buttons on the turntable was pretty weird, I had expected the turntable to be treated more like the strum bar in guitar hero rather than the buttons.

The only part of Tofu's analysis that I would argue with is his use of the term "painfully droll".
It's good to have critical analysis of a game whether positive or negative. However it is not good to have opinion passed off as analysis or have a person make one sentence quotes supporting his opinions in a poor attempt to troll.  If you have not played something you can make objective points in favour or disfavour of a game on certain things but 9/10 opinions in this topic are bashing this game for no reason other than either fanboyism or perceived issues that may or may not even be true.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 06:58:34 pm by ha~ma »

Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 05:55:15 am »
If you have not played something you can make objective points in favour or disfavour of a game on certain things but 9/10 opinions in this topic are bashing this game for no reason other than either fanboyism or perceived issues that may or may not even be true.

Wow, you have amazing insight into people's minds. Also, you posted about 30% of the comments here.
21 posts total (including this one), 7 of which are yours. So maybe we should be a little more careful with hyperbole.


cthulhu, did you or hardstyle actually buy a copy? If so maybe you could bring it over tomorrow to show me the craziness.
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Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 10:06:55 am »
If you have not played something you can make objective points in favour or disfavour of a game on certain things but 9/10 opinions in this topic are bashing this game for no reason other than either fanboyism or perceived issues that may or may not even be true.

Wow, you have amazing insight into people's minds. Also, you posted about 30% of the comments here.
21 posts total (including this one), 7 of which are yours. So maybe we should be a little more careful with hyperbole.


cthulhu, did you or hardstyle actually buy a copy? If so maybe you could bring it over tomorrow to show me the craziness.
hardstylezombie is buying a copy monday i believe.
i played it at best buy, and the controls were truly retarded (literally. like.. slow..)

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:50:23 am »
If you have not played something you can make objective points in favour or disfavour of a game on certain things but 9/10 opinions in this topic are bashing this game for no reason other than either fanboyism or perceived issues that may or may not even be true.

Wow, you have amazing insight into people's minds. Also, you posted about 30% of the comments here.
21 posts total (including this one), 7 of which are yours. So maybe we should be a little more careful with hyperbole.


cthulhu, did you or hardstyle actually buy a copy? If so maybe you could bring it over tomorrow to show me the craziness.
Why should I need to be more careful with a figure of speech? The underlying point still stands true. I guess I should have added a disclaimer to that figure for morons / trolls. If you're going to suggest that my posts are included in this 9/10 ballpark figure then feel free to correct me on points, but I believe you're just trying to bait me.

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2009, 10:54:18 am »

I LOVE THIS THREAD
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:54:48 am by xcthulhux »

Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2009, 11:55:03 am »
hardstylezombie is buying a copy monday i believe.
i played it at best buy, and the controls were truly retarded (literally. like.. slow..)

Cool. Vallie and I won't be getting Lego Rockband until later this weekend, so next week we'll be able to have a party with both crazy games.
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Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2009, 11:58:00 am »
hardstylezombie is buying a copy monday i believe.
i played it at best buy, and the controls were truly retarded (literally. like.. slow..)

Cool. Vallie and I won't be getting Lego Rockband until later this weekend, so next week we'll be able to have a party with both crazy games.
well, i hope he will have it by next week. he said he is getting paid monday IIRC, and he usually buys games right after getting paid.

Offline HardstyleZombie

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2009, 12:30:54 pm »
if i have $120 or $200 for the cool table left over i will get it

but its bill week and i need a bus pass and new clothes

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 12:37:22 pm »
if i have $120 or $200 for the cool table left over i will get it

but its bill week and i need a bus pass and new clothes
don't they stop selling bus passes after the 5th?

Offline HardstyleZombie

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 12:40:10 pm »
if i have $120 or $200 for the cool table left over i will get it

but its bill week and i need a bus pass and new clothes
don't they stop selling bus passes after the 5th?
1Oth

Offline Cyprus

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 10:05:55 am »
As I have not played it, I can't honestly say anything about it...but when my G/F & I were at Fred Meyer the other day & saw it, we both just started laughing at the very idea of it. I honestly see no appeal in this title at all...& it reminds me of a couple other games made in the past that were basically the same concept. Not my money...no thanks.

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2009, 02:08:29 pm »
haha I thought this thread died a week after I posted it, I had no idea that such a war would go on over a video game- yeesh.

Well I liked it, yes the challenge level was low for most songs- some songs I cannot keep up with but that is most likely just my reflexes' fault. Some songs are VERY boring and some you just cannot get into- it is mostly the later songs like the Daft Punk, DJ Z Trip set and whatnot where things get a bit more challenging and fun.

Anyways the bottom line:

is it worth 100+ dollars? No, trade in some old games and get it that way. I only paid about sixty bucks for it altogether (Renegade Version) and I say it was worth that, yes I am SLIGHTLY disappointed by the game but I still find it something I will keep around for and DLC and the fun tracks they do have (which is about 70 percent or so the game)

Edit: As I said in the MEWcon forums which was quoted here- Beatmania and DJ Hero live in separate worlds, just because they both deal with a style of music and a "Similar" Controller does not mean they are anything alike, after getting used to the layout of the controller I was easily able to go through DJ Hero on Hard (except for the last few sets), I still can barely do anything on Beatmania...which has gathered dust for about half a year now. Beatmania is for the challenge and DJ Hero is for the party aspect of it all, thats my two cents.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 02:17:31 pm by Mr Silmero »

Offline DancingTofu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2009, 02:55:29 pm »
I was disappointed with how small the controller was. :< (saw it at Best Buy the other day; would have tried it but it was tied up and I was more interested in the $1100 keytar over in Musical Instruments.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline Cyprus

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2009, 03:04:07 pm »
Well the thread only caught my eye because I seen it at the store...I realize it was a bit old but it was new info to me   :P

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2009, 04:40:08 pm »
I was disappointed with how small the controller was. :< (saw it at Best Buy the other day; would have tried it but it was tied up and I was more interested in the $1100 keytar over in Musical Instruments.

if it's the Demo Unit just stay away from it- it will not give you a fair opinion of the game.

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 10:14:11 pm »
I was disappointed with how small the controller was. :< (saw it at Best Buy the other day; would have tried it but it was tied up and I was more interested in the $1100 keytar over in Musical Instruments.

if it's the Demo Unit just stay away from it- it will not give you a fair opinion of the game.
it gave me a fair opinion of the game.

It gave me the basic controls, the controller, 4 songs to play with, duel action with the guitar, and a tutorial.
It is still bad.

Tofu and i rocked out on it at best buy, and found ourselves very disappointed.

Offline DancingTofu

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2009, 05:32:34 pm »
Here are some issues with the game that I wasn't expecting:

The rendering in the game causes the game to experience latency, so that both the DJ track and the Guitar track will jump, similar to StepMania playing on a low-spec'd computer.  However, due to the 3-D scroll style, this is an active assault on the player's eyes.  I was only able to make it through two songs before the eyestrain gave me a headache.

The buttons are difficult to track and highly unintuitive; moreso than one would expect.  There are functions of the game that I didn't even bother with, like the freestyle knob (seriously; give us a modulator knob if you're going to give us a modulator knob).

The timing window is not only quite small; it's off-sync.  I had to hit notes about a tenth of a second late in order to actually hit them.  This may have been audio-lag, but for a game like this to have that small of timing windows with no graduation, no rhythmic cues, and poorly tracked rhythms is just stupid.

This game would be easier with the sound off.  The tracks sound like total crap IMO, and really distract me while playing.  Besides that, the crossfader lacks rhythm and the actually button presses are only accurate on rare occasions.
moderators gonna moderate </shrug>

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2009, 09:59:06 pm »
Most HDTV lag you see is from the post-processing effects that are popular in most modern HDTVs (filters, anti aliasing, etc), which increases the overall one way latency. I think the biggest problem with a store setup with this or any rhythm game is that the TVs they are using are unsuited for the job. First experience I had with GH was terrible due to this.

I don't think a DJ'ing setup the game is trying to emulate is very intuitive to begin with.

I'll get a chance next weekend to play this on a TV that has EXTREMELY LOW lag (preffered TV by top IIDX players, ironically) and a comfy setup with the controller etc so I'll post my impressions then.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 10:15:53 pm by ha~ma »

Offline NARUNIK

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2009, 04:37:07 pm »
I played the demo and it..

WAS AWESOME!

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2009, 10:35:35 pm »
I played the demo and it..

WAS AWESOME!
v.v
i am dissapoint

Offline HardstyleZombie

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2009, 11:16:58 am »
ok the demo sucks

the real game is fun

dj/guitar is dumb

dj/dj is fun

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2009, 11:17:48 am »
ok the demo sucks

the real game is fun

dj/guitar is dumb

dj/dj is fun
fo' rly?
i'm coming to your house to try it soon.
how's tomorrow sound?

Offline HardstyleZombie

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2009, 12:24:16 pm »
ok the demo sucks

the real game is fun

dj/guitar is dumb

dj/dj is fun
fo' rly?
i'm coming to your house to try it soon.
how's tomorrow sound?
how you going to tell me

also the best song are by the scratch perverts cuz there so fun

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2009, 01:28:31 pm »
ok the demo sucks

the real game is fun

dj/guitar is dumb

dj/dj is fun
fo' rly?
i'm coming to your house to try it soon.
how's tomorrow sound?
how you going to tell me

also the best song are by the scratch perverts cuz there so fun
dude, im getting a phone today.
i won't be able to come over today or tomorrow, because there will be a fat kid sleeping at my house tonight.

I will text you when i get my phone, and we will plan something.

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2009, 10:05:31 pm »

also the best song are by the scratch perverts cuz there so fun

"So you want to be a DJ...It's going to awful lot of practice"

the end of that song killed me hard for a few tries.

Offline HardstyleZombie

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2009, 02:04:18 am »

also the best song are by the scratch perverts cuz there so fun

"So you want to be a DJ...It's going to awful lot of practice"

the end of that song killed me hard for a few tries.
im like ya ya luts do it on expert then i got one star

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2009, 03:43:19 am »
Played this game on a Renegade controller, some thoughts: Controller is EXCELLENT, no problems here (not as good as my special Beatmania controller, but it's basically the best controller that money could possibly buy for any sample based music game). Some of the remixes are just plain brilliant, very solid soundtrack overall. Scoring system actually makes sense unlike many other offerings on the market.  Rewind rewards you score wise for consistency (being able to repeat a difficult part twice gives you tons of points, leech city if you can FC stuff) and helps newcomers redo difficult parts. Good idea. Also being able to choose your own selection of samples to use in certain portions of a song is unique to this game. This is a step towards giving music gamers more creative choice over their performances. A serious problem with the game is the price point, I'd imagine holiday discounts will help with this. Learning curve isn't that rough for an experienced music gamer but it'd be a tough first for a non music gamer. If I owned a next gen system I'd definitely buy this game under two conditions: A sequel is made, and the price dropped maybe 20 dollars.  Operating on one hour of sleep, this post probably won't make any sense to me tomorrow. Oh well.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:32:44 pm by ha~ma »

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2009, 05:22:56 pm »
A serious problem with the game is the price point

Ahh the joys of trading in a bunch of games you've already beaten *paid about 60 bucks for it*

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2009, 11:58:46 am »
Lucky :)

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2009, 07:30:22 pm »
Traded in Nintendo Dsi which I have not touched...pretty much since I got it, among other things.

Offline xcthulhux

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2009, 06:15:59 am »
Controller is EXCELLENT
I haven't played with the renegade controller, so i must ask, does it have the same problem with the crossfader that the other one does?

i can't get it to stop, it clicks, but it only clicks once, which kind of makes it jerk to the other side. It would be sooo much better if it clicked twice, so there was actually a middle, instead of it being 2 sections physically, and 3 sections virtually.

Offline ha~ma

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2009, 11:09:51 am »
Controller is EXCELLENT
I haven't played with the renegade controller, so i must ask, does it have the same problem with the crossfader that the other one does?

i can't get it to stop, it clicks, but it only clicks once, which kind of makes it jerk to the other side. It would be sooo much better if it clicked twice, so there was actually a middle, instead of it being 2 sections physically, and 3 sections virtually.
The controller I played on did not have an issue like that.

Offline Mr Silmero

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Re: DJ Hero
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2009, 09:15:00 pm »

i can't get it to stop, it clicks, but it only clicks once, which kind of makes it jerk to the other side. It would be sooo much better if it clicked twice, so there was actually a middle, instead of it being 2 sections physically, and 3 sections virtually.


It has the virtual 3 sections on mine- that was my main gripe with the game, granted with a bit of muscle memory you can just make your hand remember where the middle is but still.