Plans to make 2010 even better

[CassieR]

Hey everybody, I doubt most of you know me because I don't get on the forums a lot, but I'm the current Assistant Director of Publicity, Cassie Richoux. I've been going through a lot of the posts now, though I have by no means gotten to all of them, and figured I'd address some of the concerns to the best of my ability.  I know most of the execs are getting through the forum posts today, as tear down finally finished at nine last night, and most of them had work today or sleep to catch up on. I'm not speaking for the board or anything, but just trying to let you guys know some of the things I've been hearing about what we are going to do for next year in our never-ending quest to make sure the attendees have the best time possible.

Hotel staff - overall, it seems to have just been a few staff members that were repeatedly rude. Both Kumoricon execs and the hotel management know about these problems and any identifiable hotel staff members seem to have been/are being dealt with by the Hilton. If you got names and specific incidences, please contact the Hilton so they can keep investigating this. Overall, the staff of the Hilton were excited to see us, where taking pictures of us to share with friends, and had a fun time working with us.

Escalators - The reason the escalators where turned off some of the times was so that long skirts and props would not be caught, as it is very difficult to do any kind of emergency stop if that happens. That was a decision that was made between Kumoricon and the hotel staff, and we will look at what is the best option for next year, for both keeping up the flow but also trying to assure our con goes safety.

Elevators - First, thanks to those of you who used the stairs when you did not need to go very far!  Four banks of elevators is perfectly fine for normal hotel traffic, but not during an event like ours. The elevators have a lot of electronic capabilities though, and we will be figuring out a better plan for how to utilize them. One idea is to have some of the elevators set up to only go between the main floor and the guest floors, which would mean 4-23. This should help for people who want to get to their rooms, and don't want to walk up twenty flights of stairs.

Also, next year the Hilton is planning to make sure that only K-Con attendees will be staying in the main downtown Hilton, and all other guests will be in the Executive Tower. This should help with the elevator situation a little.  One problem was that there was a wedding going on, and while they knew and actually thought it would be fun to have the convention at the hotel, the wedding party quickly realized that it was impossible for them to get between floors as was necessary to make all the wedding preparations, hence the need for segregated elevators. Next year, this will not be the case.

Cell Phone Reception downstairs - This was an unexpected problem, but one we are definitely aware of and will think of ways to help with it next year. Because of the cap, I know some people go trapped going upstairs to make a call and were then unable to get downstairs right away. It was suggested at rant and rave that you can contact your provider and get a signal boost, so that is something to think about next year. But this is a serious concern with as many minors as we have attending, so we will definitely be thinking of a better way to let people get upstairs to make phone calls (or for parents to be able to come down and physically check on children).

Photo Shoots and Hang-out Spaces - We've all gotten a little spoiled the last few years by having some great parks nearby and wonderful weather. This year the rain trapped us all inside and while Pioneer Square was close, it wasn't quite as convenient (though I did hear that as the weather cleared up, people did start moving over there for some great photo shoots and to show off their costumes for Channel . Now we have a whole year to think of ways to give attendees some kind of better spacing within the hotel to just hang out and to get their photo's done. I know some ideas being tossed around are things like a photo shoot room or a hang out room, though of course these would both mean possibly taking away from some kind of programming. Unfortunately, no matter what kind of hotel we are in, we never seem to have enough space for all the events we wish we could be doing.

Signage - Yeah, signage wasn't the greatest this year. Going into it, we didn't realize things would be so confusing, and the multiple levels didn't help. That being said, there is no excuse not to have it be much much better this year. We are planning to incorporate signage notes into the walk-through and add a lot more navigation and arrow signs. In addition, the signs will definitely be larger in some places.

As for next year, this is definitely our hotel. I go to a lot of conventions across the country, and actually, from the staff level at least, this hotel has been great to us. They always made sure to get tables and chairs to rooms immediately, always helped out our staff with getting things done, and immediately filled in for holes that our yojimbo couldn't handle.  2011 may be a different story, but we are just trying hard to find conventions that can deal with our size.  But unfortunately the convention center isn't built for fan event and would cost the majority of our yearly budget. Other departments would have to be slashed, which would result in things like less guest and no new video games.  And as far as hotels go there is a tiny one about two blocks away (though remember just walking across that convention center is another couple of blocks), and the double tree is roughly 6 long blocks away, or a max stop. Do-able maybe in a few years, but this isn't an option for next year.

We're actually really lucky with the Hilton, they are aware of the problems and are happy to work with us to solve them for next year. Most of their staff is excited about us and think we are a fun group.  So, next year should definitely go a lot smoother.  Please though, keep posting constructive criticism and let us know what went well as well, so we don't accidentally mess with something you loved.

Also, please come join staff if you think you have some ideas on how to make things better!  One of our goals is to get more yojimbo so that the hotel staff doesn't need to be helping us out with line control and movement. Most of our yojimbo worked the entire weekend, some had 16 hour shifts at a time, so we'd really love to let them get some rest next year!  Our convention is all run by volunteers, by fans that passionately want to make every year better than the last, and we'd love to have you join us!

[reppy]

Here are some of my suggestions.  Note that I didn't encounter all of these problems myself, but some of them seemed to be a recurring theme amongst complaints.

1- Lack of communication.  Too many staff were giving people conflicting information.  What one staff member said was okay another said was against the rules.  So lets say that there was a last minute change and now they need to move a line because it poses a fire hazard or some sort of safety risk.  How is that communicated to all the Yojimbo?  Is it done person to person?  Do the Yojimbo have radios to communicate?  I think an easy and cheap way to communicate any up to the minute news could be done via a special Twitter account for Kumoricon or a sort of e-mail list that would send SMS to the cellphones of the Yojimbo.  Twitter would be most convenient for its ease but I think an e-mail list with the SMS addresses of all the Yojimbo would be better.  If done this way, you could at least group certain e-mails and then send out the relevant information.  This is helpful because 1) there would be no unnecessary information for people that didn't need to know it 2) it would save on any incoming text charges.  I understand some volunteers might not like this idea since it could incur a cost to them, so it should be voluntary.  However, so long as it is done sparingly, how much could an extra 50 at maximum or so texts over the course of a weekend hurt you?

2- Lack of signs when they could have been very helpful.  How many people had to be turned away by Yojimbo because there was an event being held that limited access?  A lot of confusion for con attendees and the Yojimbo could easily be alleviated if there were poster boards on a stand somewhere near the locations in question.  I noticed there were signs on gaming room doors saying "EXIT ONLY" and such.  Why can't there be signs telling people, "The gallery is for participants in the gaming competition ONLY from X to Y PM."  On Saturday, I didn't see any signs that indicated which escalators were up and which were down.  This just confuses the con attendees and makes for more work for the staff.  And even when they were placed, their placement seemed slightly odd like I might miss them if I wasn't paying close attention for them.  So, something to consider and work on for next year.

3- Stress management.  I personally have never had any issues with Yojimbo or staff in the 6 or so years I've been attending Kumoricon.  However, I understand that their job is stressful and I wonder if 1) their needs are fully being tended to (i.e., food, drink, restroom) and 2) they have any sort of training in how to deal with their increasing stress levels.  I also understand that due to the high volume of the crowd, that they have to yell.  Some people can misinterpret this as meaning the Yojimbo is being rude to them or is angry at them.  I missed opening ceremonies this year, so I don't know if it was discussed but I think it would be helpful to inform the con attendees that the Yojimbo are there to provide crowd control and often have to raise their voices so they can be heard.

4- Say thanks!  This goes for staff and attendees.  Again I've never had an issue where I thought someone was being overtly rude to me or disrespectful, but saying "Thanks" to someone for moving out of the way or answering your question really goes a long way.  So maybe add a "please" after you yell out "up against the wall" and then a "thank you" as you pass by.  And when you ask a Yojimbo for directions and he points out the spot to you, be sure to say "Thank you" for the help!

Edit: Oops.  I must have missed your little rant about the signs.  ^_^;  Anyways, that was really about my only gripe (and it was relatively small) about the entire weekend.  I had a fantastic time and met a lot of great people.

[murder_of_raven]

I know that it might be extremely inconvenient, but I really really think we should post a Yojimbo (or a Hotel Staff, or a designated police officer, etc) at the Pioneer Square MAX station from maybe 10PM-3AM.

I noticed a lot of little problems this year at the convention but this was the only thing that caused me to feel really uncomfortable and unsafe. By that late at night everyone creepy in downtown PDX has heard about the anime convention and everybody normal has gone to bed. I had some really uncomfortable situations myself and I've read about people having even worse experiences on the forums. I know that a security person at PS wouldn't fix everything, but at least people would know there was someone safe to ask for help outside the hotel.

[reppy]

Here's another one:

5-Embedded con goers!  Basically, select a group of con goers that will attend panels and events like normal, and their only job is to report to someone so staff can get a feel for things.  Too much congestion somewhere?  Out of control attendees?  A staff member overstepping their boundaries?  They can report it.  Honestly, the last part, about reporting on out of control attendees/staff members acting out of turn doesn't really sound too good to me, since it seems like a sort of "secret con police" and I don't like that idea on principle.  But, I think it might be a good idea to have a staff of con attendees that you know will only provide helpful information and legitimate criticisms to help things flow nicely.  They'll kind of be on the front lines of the convention so to speak.

[murder_of_raven]

Here's another one:

5-Embedded con goers!  Basically, select a group of con goers that will attend panels and events like normal, and their only job is to report to someone so staff can get a feel for things.  Too much congestion somewhere?  Out of control attendees?  A staff member overstepping their boundaries?  They can report it.  Honestly, the last part, about reporting on out of control attendees/staff members acting out of turn doesn't really sound too good to me, since it seems like a sort of "secret con police" and I don't like that idea on principle.  But, I think it might be a good idea to have a staff of con attendees that you know will only provide helpful information and legitimate criticisms to help things flow nicely.  They'll kind of be on the front lines of the convention so to speak.

I really like this idea and would be happy to do this. :3

[CassieR]

1- Lack of communication.  Too many staff were giving people conflicting information.  What one staff member said was okay another said was against the rules.  So lets say that there was a last minute change and now they need to move a line because it poses a fire hazard or some sort of safety risk.  How is that communicated to all the Yojimbo?  Is it done person to person?  Do the Yojimbo have radios to communicate?  I think an easy and cheap way to communicate any up to the minute news could be done via a special Twitter account for Kumoricon or a sort of e-mail list that would send SMS to the cellphones of the Yojimbo.  Twitter would be most convenient for its ease but I think an e-mail list with the SMS addresses of all the Yojimbo would be better.  If done this way, you could at least group certain e-mails and then send out the relevant information.  This is helpful because 1) there would be no unnecessary information for people that didn't need to know it 2) it would save on any incoming text charges.  I understand some volunteers might not like this idea since it could incur a cost to them, so it should be voluntary.  However, so long as it is done sparingly, how much could an extra 50 at maximum or so texts over the course of a weekend hurt you?

We are always working to figure out better ways to communicate.  Radios are used, but there are of course always never enough and plenty of staff don't carry them. I know my cell phone was busy all weekend just keeping in touch about guest and publicity things.

Part of the problem though is that many things are left up to the discretion of the specific people. And things like room caps changed some during the weekend as we had fire marshal issues (at least this is what I understood. Unfortunately, this is not my department at all.) Next year we will have a much clearer idea t the start about things like room caps and where there might be flow problems.

Stress management is also always something we try to work on, we tried to get staff feed and sent to bed, but there are plenty of great staff members who don't want to sleep until they are sure their is someone else to replace them, and that can't always be done. Our yojimbo are very hard working people!

And you're right about saying thank you and please. Those things make the day move so much more smoothly.

And embedded con goers is a nice idea. Ideally we have people monitoring each panel, ready to help out the panelists if needed, but that's not always the case.  This is definitely something volunteers could be doing. Remember, if you don't want all the responsibilities of staff, there is also volunteering.

[CassieR]

I know that it might be extremely inconvenient, but I really really think we should post a Yojimbo (or a Hotel Staff, or a designated police officer, etc) at the Pioneer Square MAX station from maybe 10PM-3AM.

I noticed a lot of little problems this year at the convention but this was the only thing that caused me to feel really uncomfortable and unsafe. By that late at night everyone creepy in downtown PDX has heard about the anime convention and everybody normal has gone to bed. I had some really uncomfortable situations myself and I've read about people having even worse experiences on the forums. I know that a security person at PS wouldn't fix everything, but at least people would know there was someone safe to ask for help outside the hotel.

The safety of our attendees is our highest concern. Unfortunately our abilities stop at the door due to liability issues. We have no real power outside the doors. Still, I wonder if something could be done that wasn't "official" but maybe ask for people who are willing to help set up a buddy system, so that if attendees feel like they need someone to walk with them, there could be some people available to walk with them. We'll definitely have to think about these things before next convention.

[MichaelEvans]

The fire code issue rumor/facts are a big concern of mine.  I'd really like to know any areas that were detracting from the previously rated conditions and how we could improve them.  It could be as simple as better signage/hotel marking.

As an example, altering the lighting to have the exit paths and doors illuminated more than other areas, and reflective tape on the floor to mark emergency exit routes might help us.

If we keep that rolling door up, but have some kind of barrier that can be opened, but which would set off major fire alarms/such (and was clearly marked as so) that might solve escape issues.  I can see a -lot- of traffic flowing up that ramp safely at once.

[BigGuy]

That gate was keep closed to prevent people from coming in and messing up the head count to keep the entire level within fire code. Plus people could just walk down the ramp and skip the line starting at the top of the escalators and people in line for a while wouldn't be able to get in if we had to close the doors when the main room capped.

[MichaelEvans]

That gate was keep closed to prevent people from coming in and messing up the head count to keep the entire level within fire code. Plus people could just walk down the ramp and skip the line starting at the top of the escalators and people in line for a while wouldn't be able to get in if we had to close the doors when the main room capped.

Those security measures were at the wrong point.  Queue control is one thing, headcount control is another.

The firecode considerations should be at the door going in/out.  The line controls should be in other areas.  Ideally we could do ticketed/batch entry next year and do away with the lines entirely.

[shanime_panda]

the only thing I wish would change is that events would start ON TIME and that the dances would start and hour earlier since the curfew for minors is midnight, the dances didn't start until 10:00 or 11:00 and they started LATE.

correct me if I'm wrong, but to be more fair to the minors, it should start around 9:00
isn't that how it was at 2008?

[Rathany]

the only thing I wish would change is that events would start ON TIME and that the dances would start and hour earlier since the curfew for minors is midnight, the dances didn't start until 10:00 or 11:00 and they started LATE.

correct me if I'm wrong, but to be more fair to the minors, it should start around 9:00
isn't that how it was at 2008?

Things are never going to run without delays as we get no dress rehearsal.  I booked two bands for this year because "We've done it before and having two bands is awesome".  It was my booking two bands that caused the timing to be so tight.  My thought for next year is to limit us to one band to ease the strain on all that needs to go on in Main Events. 

[AllyKat]

Besides, how do we get the kids out of the dance by midnight? I'm still confused at how this was supposed to work...
Do we just ask nicely? do Yojimbo get to go around with flashlights and check badges 1/2 durring the dance?

Or will there have to be an early dance for under-agers next year that ends early, everyone has to leave or have a stamp
or something....

AHH! it just seems like a logistical nightmare...!

~Allykat

[Rathany]

Besides, how do we get the kids out of the dance by midnight? I'm still confused at how this was supposed to work...
Do we just ask nicely? do Yojimbo get to go around with flashlights and check badges 1/2 durring the dance?

Or will there have to be an early dance for under-agers next year that ends early, everyone has to leave or have a stamp
or something....

AHH! it just seems like a logistical nightmare...!

~Allykat

It is a logistical nightmare.  I am just glad it's not my logistical nightmare.

Sak had tried the earlier dances aimed at minors at their con.  (The Sak I keep refering to is Sakuracon in Seattle if I am confusing anyone.  We are their 'little sister' con.)  Anyway, their attempts at that completely fell flat.  No one was interested.  Main events not only has to deal with lots of big events, but the different events need different chair and tech setups.  The dances need to be earlier.  Going down to one band and killing the Masquerade will help this alot. 

[AllyKat]

Yeah... There is Sak/S-con/Sakura-Con.... but if you are really in the know there is Sac-Anime in
Sacremento CA and then you are talking about Sak and Sac and you could really get confused!

LOL

I had a feeling a minors early dance just wouldn't work... well perhaps someone will come up with
an ingenious idea by October! Maybe since they are technically on private property in the hotel
as long as they are in the dance minors can have a specific little sticker on their badge that permits
them the DANCE ONLY as a way to stay up late. There room would have to be in the Hilton main
tower, barring youth who have to cross the street to the other executive tower-

see this is just too hard... oy!

~Allykat

[Rathany]

Yeah... There is Sak/S-con/Sakura-Con.... but if you are really in the know there is Sac-Anime in
Sacremento CA and then you are talking about Sak and Sac and you could really get confused!

LOL

I had a feeling a minors early dance just wouldn't work... well perhaps someone will come up with
an ingenious idea by October! Maybe since they are technically on private property in the hotel
as long as they are in the dance minors can have a specific little sticker on their badge that permits
them the DANCE ONLY as a way to stay up late. There room would have to be in the Hilton main
tower, barring youth who have to cross the street to the other executive tower-

see this is just too hard... oy!

~Allykat

We tried something similar to that last year, allowing minors to stay for dance only, and it did not work at all.  Alot of the minors wound up upset with us over 'well, if we can go to the dance why can't we go to this other thing?'

Also, if we don't keep logistics simple, people will get confused.  Alot of our logistics staff only ever get one training session and it's hard to learn tons of detailed info in one, long training session.

(At least Sac is pronounced Sack and Sak is pronounced Sock.  We used to have a con north of us called KeiCon, that was really confusing.  Also, I used to run games at Arcon.) 

[Jamiche]

The only time we've had the dances earlier is when we didn't have a band.  If we want to go back to that, then no bands is an option.

The Masquerade Ball timing was not affected by a band, it was affected by the Cosplay Contest.  We can look at moving it earlier in the day (which has been expressed by others as not a good thing), or shortening it (same thing).  And I know this is not going to be a popular thing, but the Ball was a dance that minors were allowed to go to... it just wasn't a rave.

Like I said in Rant and Rave... it's a balance issue.  I have one big room to schedule all the big events, and timing is an issue.  We do our best to try and ensure that it is fair for everyone... we are not singling out any one group to screw over.

[Rathany]

The only time we've had the dances earlier is when we didn't have a band.  If we want to go back to that, then no bands is an option.

The Masquerade Ball timing was not affected by a band, it was affected by the Cosplay Contest.  We can look at moving it earlier in the day (which has been expressed by others as not a good thing), or shortening it (same thing).  And I know this is not going to be a popular thing, but the Ball was a dance that minors were allowed to go to... it just wasn't a rave.

Like I said in Rant and Rave... it's a balance issue.  I have one big room to schedule all the big events, and timing is an issue.  We do our best to try and ensure that it is fair for everyone... we are not singling out any one group to screw over.

Well, 'No Bands' is easier on my budget.  And it's something I hadn't considered.  It might be worth considering.  If people want dance more than band, then, yeah, cheaper and more popular is good.

Maybe we ... hrmm....  We must have music somehow.  (Is having thoughts)

[Animeman73]

Overall I must say you did very well. I understand the escalators thing completely. When I went to Orycon 30 a year ago there was a fiasco at the Marriott involving someone's costume getting stuck in the escalator and mucking things up. Embarrasing eh?
My only real complaints were the elevators and the traffic. Also could you guys make it posible so VIPs can get front row seats for closing and opening ceremonies next year? These are my suggestions besides an idea for a guest of honor but I'll wait to give that till after the elections.

[kylite]

Adding my 2 cents: I believe we should remove the massquerade and instead have a dance for the younger attendees so they dont feel so left out when curfew hits at the later dance.

[AllyKat]

If people want bands... could we consider a mini battle of the bands?

Con-goers can sign up with their band and perform a 1-2 song set and have it
be a sort of competition or exhibition of fan bands, we can even ask them to try
and keep the songs anime/japanese based!

Thats free publicity for bands, and free bands for the con, this has probably already
been thought of and found to not have enough momentum behind it but... it might
show you... I don't know how many people are really intent on seeing a band at the
con...

~Allykat

[Rathany]

If people want bands... could we consider a mini battle of the bands?

Con-goers can sign up with their band and perform a 1-2 song set and have it
be a sort of competition or exhibition of fan bands, we can even ask them to try
and keep the songs anime/japanese based!

Thats free publicity for bands, and free bands for the con, this has probably already
been thought of and found to not have enough momentum behind it but... it might
show you... I don't know how many people are really intent on seeing a band at the
con...

~Allykat

We have equipment to setup on band on stage.  Every band requires slightly different tech.  We'd need two complete setups.  While one band played the other set would need to be changed over.  We'd need 2x the soundboards, amps, cords, mikes and tech crew.  And likely other fiddly things I am blissfully ignorant of

Just to have two bands we have to have an one hour tech walkthrough to set up them and thier change-over. 

[MichaelEvans]

We have equipment to setup on band on stage.  Every band requires slightly different tech.  We'd need two complete setups.  While one band played the other set would need to be changed over.  We'd need 2x the soundboards, amps, cords, mikes and tech crew.  And likely other fiddly things I am blissfully ignorant of

Just to have two bands we have to have an one hour tech walkthrough to set up them and thier change-over.  

It may be worth having 'new' and 'old' equipment duplicating that task (or renting 2x as much; IDK what we do now), just to eliminate that 'waste hour' when we do have two bands.

Though I wonder why we don't have the bands on one night, and the dance stuff on another.
- edit -

Right, it wasn't the band, it was Cosplay... hum... It's too bad we can't hold Cosplay somewhere else that's large and open and easier tow wander in and out of...

[Rathany]

We have equipment to setup on band on stage.  Every band requires slightly different tech.  We'd need two complete setups.  While one band played the other set would need to be changed over.  We'd need 2x the soundboards, amps, cords, mikes and tech crew.  And likely other fiddly things I am blissfully ignorant of

Just to have two bands we have to have an one hour tech walkthrough to set up them and thier change-over. 

It may be worth having 'new' and 'old' equipment duplicating that task (or renting 2x as much; IDK what we do now), just to eliminate that 'waste hour' when we do have two bands.

Though I wonder why we don't have the bands on one night, and the dance stuff on another.

It costs alot of money.  As it was, the bands were sharing some equipment to lessen setup time. Also, since we did not hit were we though we would on numbers, we have LESS money to plan next year, not MORE. 

[Jamiche]

Though I wonder why we don't have the bands on one night, and the dance stuff on another.
- edit -

Right, it wasn't the band, it was Cosplay... hum... It's too bad we can't hold Cosplay somewhere else that's large and open and easier tow wander in and out of...

Saturday night, it was the bands followed by a dance.  Sunday, it was Cosplay, followed by the Masquerade Ball and another dance.  The problem we had was with the bands, not Cosplay.

[AllyKat]

How was the Attendance to the concert?? good? sub-par... none of my group
bothered with it... we had too many other things to do... No dis-respect to the bands it's
just... not why I would come to a Con... I'm just not a concert person I guess.

I say that knowing full well if I ever heard that L'arc en Ciel were performing in Portland,
I'd sell my soul to go see them...

*sigh*

~Allykat

[murder_of_raven]

It costs alot of money.  As it was, the bands were sharing some equipment to lessen setup time. Also, since we did not hit were we though we would on numbers, we have LESS money to plan next year, not MORE. 

Seeing as it seems to be a niche audience to begin with, do you think it would be possible to /paid/ tickets for the shows? I mean, at first it might seem ridiculous but this happens all the time at amusement parks and such and I imagine people who wanted bands would prefer paying $3-8 rather than them being cut entirely. This would lighten the financial strain, but I guess it wouldn't do much for scheduling conflicts.

[Rathany]

It costs alot of money.  As it was, the bands were sharing some equipment to lessen setup time. Also, since we did not hit were we though we would on numbers, we have LESS money to plan next year, not MORE. 

Seeing as it seems to be a niche audience to begin with, do you think it would be possible to /paid/ tickets for the shows? I mean, at first it might seem ridiculous but this happens all the time at amusement parks and such and I imagine people who wanted bands would prefer paying $3-8 rather than them being cut entirely. This would lighten the financial strain, but I guess it wouldn't do much for scheduling conflicts.

With the price of admission, we try to avoid charging extra for events if we can avoid it.  I have some plans to deal with this, but, can't really talk abotu them because:

a) New Board is not elected yet.
b) It's *reeeeealy* bad form to talk about potential guests.  All GoH and band bookings are kept secret until 100% confirmed and that will be a whiles off ... no matter who is running it. 

[Jamiche]

With the price of admission, we try to avoid charging extra for events if we can avoid it.  I have some plans to deal with this, but, can't really talk abotu them because:

a) New Board is not elected yet.
b) It's *reeeeealy* bad form to talk about potential guests.  All GoH and band bookings are kept secret until 100% confirmed and that will be a whiles off ... no matter who is running it. 

And because Programming might kill you if it's found out that multiple bands are in the works

[Rathany]

With the price of admission, we try to avoid charging extra for events if we can avoid it.  I have some plans to deal with this, but, can't really talk abotu them because:

a) New Board is not elected yet.
b) It's *reeeeealy* bad form to talk about potential guests.  All GoH and band bookings are kept secret until 100% confirmed and that will be a whiles off ... no matter who is running it. 

And because Programming might kill you if it's found out that multiple bands are in the works

See, if we get enough bands ... it will solve everything ...  Hey, at least you talked me out of having 4!  4 would have been sooo coooool... ;_;

[Kurohime]

It would seem to make more sense to me to have the Masquerade Ball on one night (all ages) and a concert/dance on the other night.  You'd only need one band.  And is there a way to start them an hour earlier?  I'm not used to being up that late anymore and I've been too tired by that time to mess with it. 

I don't suppose you can please everyone though.

[Rathany]

It would seem to make more sense to me to have the Masquerade Ball on one night (all ages) and a concert/dance on the other night.  You'd only need one band.  And is there a way to start them an hour earlier?  I'm not used to being up that late anymore and I've been too tired by that time to mess with it. 

I don't suppose you can please everyone though.

The problem with shifting earlier is that it shifts everything else earlier. You may see grey patched between events in our rooms?  That is when we have our main events techs scrambling to set up for the next event.  We really have to have one less band, at least, in this venue. 

[Silvamord]

The only time we've had the dances earlier is when we didn't have a band.  If we want to go back to that, then no bands is an option.

The Masquerade Ball timing was not affected by a band, it was affected by the Cosplay Contest.  We can look at moving it earlier in the day (which has been expressed by others as not a good thing), or shortening it (same thing).  And I know this is not going to be a popular thing, but the Ball was a dance that minors were allowed to go to... it just wasn't a rave.

Like I said in Rant and Rave... it's a balance issue.  I have one big room to schedule all the big events, and timing is an issue.  We do our best to try and ensure that it is fair for everyone... we are not singling out any one group to screw over.

Out of my group of friends, we've never attended one concert in the couple years we've been at K-con. I'm not saying people don't enjoy them, but I know I haven't.
I adore the raves. In fact, they're probably my favorite event just because they're fun and not overly planned. The masquerade ball is awesome, I hope it will stay. Perhaps shuffling it to a different time slot is an option, like mid-day? I know this may get in the way of some other events people want to go to, but it would allow the rave to be moved earlier and I may be mistaken, but doesn't the masquerade ball have a limited capacity anyway? Just spitballing...

If you need additional people to assist with set-up, you could always begin a thread for volunteers. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind helping on one or two events if it meant things went quicker.

-edit -
whoops! Forgot about the cosplay thing that was going on... Perhaps that could be shifted slightly in the scheduling as well? Such as:
Day 1: Cosplay mid-day, Masquerade ball afternoon/evening, rave in late evening to early morning...
Day 2: Other events morning and mid-day, Concert afternoon, Rave evening to early morning...?

Again, I'm aware people have a huge issue with some events interfearing with other events. I had to choose between Slightly Anime Dating Game and the Masquerade Ball... but that's something that people will have issues with despite how hard people try to schedule things perfectly.

[Hoshikage]

whoops! Forgot about the cosplay thing that was going on... Perhaps that could be shifted slightly in the scheduling as well? Such as:
Day 1: Cosplay mid-day, Masquerade ball afternoon/evening, rave in late evening to early morning...
Day 2: Other events morning and mid-day, Concert afternoon, Rave evening to early morning...?

Having the Cosplay Contest mid-day is an extremely bad idea for a number of reasons - frankly, as a participant I thought it was too early this year already. Just off the top of my head:

1) Contestants need time to get into their costumes, and this can take a very long time (as an example of my own experience last year, Avatar Kyoshi's makeup alone took an hour and a half). If you hold it mid-day no one will have time to eat, and you really don't want contestants fainting backstage from stage nerves + lack of food.
2) Judging. You really can't hold craftsmanship judging any other time but before the show. So contestants need to get into their costumes, then get to judging...
3) Tech rehearsal. This one is the most crucial, actually. It's extremely important from a safety perspective to give people time to practice on the stage, and know how big it is and how to get on and off it safely. Especially if you're in a costume that restricts your vision or mobility. You can't necessarily see where the stage ends during the actual performance - those lights are pretty blinding. I've actually seen people fall off the stage because they didn't get a tech rehearsal, it's not pretty.

So... yeah. Short form - the earlier in the day you put the cosplay contest, the worse off everyone either participating in it or staffing it will be.

[Hakushaku]

-OVERALL-

I had a good time. Only one real minor incident with a Hotel Staff member. I was sitting on the table in the lobby which was against the wall beneath a large picture. The man came up and asked me if I sit on furniture at home and I said no and he asked me to please not sit on theirs. That was fine but the way he asked me to stop was just rude. And I did apologize, too. Also if there'd been more seating around that would have helped. It's not a big issue but even when people were in line to go downstairs on the non-moving escalators (which I now understand WHY they were turned-off) one of the Hotel Staff was expecting the line to move more and we just couldn't and a gal dressed as Sailor Mercury told the guy 'We CAN'T move!" Other than that it was okay. We had a Hotel Staff member named KEN help us on the last day to check-out. My friend's mother uses a walker and he would allow her to use the employee elevator as she couldn't wait for the regular elevators. The park was beautiful but not when we were approached by people who were either on crack or drunk and harassed us about how we looked and being called demonic freaks. One of the men said "Take that off" to me as my cosplay was Isaak from Trinity Blood and so some instantly think I'm dressed as a Nazi. So my friend and I did NOT go back there and won't go back there. We WERE enjoying watching a couple photo shoots there. I may have been born in Portland and lived there from birth to 1993 and have lived in Forest Grove since 1993, Portland can just have some really scary people compared to where I'm living. I also was not impressed with the mall across the street down a few blocks. It WAS good for meals, yes. Shopping, No. Better off to go to Lloyd Center.
I AM looking forward to K-con 2010 as it will be my 6th year attending!  

[Kurohime]

Um, why would you go shopping when there's an anime convention going on?  And in full costume?

Just sayin'...

Is there a way to get a higher stage?  I was 2/3 the way back during the cosplay contest and skits, and I couldn't see a dang thing below waist level of the people on stage- several of the skits had people sitting down, and so I didn't get much out of the show.  

[Rathany]

Is there a way to get a higher stage?  I was 2/3 the way back during the cosplay contest and skits, and I couldn't see a dang thing below waist level of the people on stage- several of the skits had people sitting down, and so I didn't get much out of the show.  

We likely can't for next year.  Those staging blocks are not free or cheap.  We are going to reign in cost where we can, but, we will do what we can

[Kurohime]

Even a small thing like making sure skits don't involve getting on the floor (couldn't even see the tube thing in the Wonderland skit) would help.  And would a plywood box for the presentees help things?  (Or several, if there's a group;))

[Rathany]

Even a small thing like making sure skits don't involve getting on the floor (couldn't even see the tube thing in the Wonderland skit) would help.  And would a plywood box for the presentees help things?  (Or several, if there's a group;))

Hrmm... that could be good.  But, being far out of my department that is the sort of detail I am not going to keep track of and make sure happens next year.  Maybe you could bring the idea up to our Cosplay Manager or Main Events Techs next year? 

[AllyKat]

  I also was not impressed with the mall across the street down a few blocks. It WAS good for meals, yes. Shopping, No. Better off to go to Lloyd Center.

You are right, but as a portlander you should know that Pioneer Square is the rich-kids/
pearl district mall. It's not for anyone who wants to by anything less than coture. Except
there is a sanrio store down there... ^_^

And I'm glad your still going to K-con regardless of any ill feelings!

_Allykat

[shanime_panda]

from the majority that I've read, and I hope I didn't miss anything...but...
I've never liked the bands, my friends have never liked the bands, and I've heard from friends that the bands play too many songs that arn't very good, too many songs that sound the same, and too many songs that you can't even dance too.

so if you cut something, my vote is the bands. Also...you don't HAVE to have 2 different dances. you could limit it to only the first night, that way it would leave room for more set-up time rather thant having to clean up after the cosplay contest.

but if you kept both dances, just have the first dance start around 8 or 9. there's no major events on the first day to delay set-up that I know of...and that way at least the 'minors who almost arn't minors anymore' like myself could actually GO to one. instead of neither.

[MichaelEvans]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet or not (and getting blocks of time with more detailed setup info in front would help) but...

Saturday:
10-12 Opening stuff
13-17 AMVs
19-21 One Band
22-24 Dance Dance Rave
Room Purge
00:30+ Masquerade Ball (Adults Only)

Sunday:
08-16 Cosplay prepwork/etc
17-20 Cosplay
22-24 Some other event? (Band/something I probably forgot...

[shanime_panda]

ahhh! one last thing
I know it's a masquerade BALL, but that doesn't mean the DJ should play 'formal/ball' music. it's very VERY hard to dance to, so naturally, no one will.

[Rathany]

ahhh! one last thing
I know it's a masquerade BALL, but that doesn't mean the DJ should play 'formal/ball' music. it's very VERY hard to dance to, so naturally, no one will.

Whether to play Ball type music or more typical anime dance music is one of those situations where we just can't win.  No matter which we do at least half the people will be unhappy with the music.  I doubt the Masquerade Ball is happening again next year, at least at con. 

[oslapedo]

^ A ball mini event outside of con would be really cool.

[shanime_panda]

I guess you're right. As much as I love dressing up in formal wear, and wearing detailed masks, it just isn't worth it if you're not going to have fun.

I guess we should stick to anime dances, it is an anime-con after all, but a FEW slow songs every now and then for the couples at the dances would be nice. and probably the best option as far as compromise goes.

[Rathany]

I guess you're right. As much as I love dressing up in formal wear, and wearing detailed masks, it just isn't worth it if you're not going to have fun.

I guess we should stick to anime dances, it is an anime-con after all, but a FEW slow songs every now and then for the couples at the dances would be nice. and probably the best option as far as compromise goes.

Maybe there could be a different event next year for people who want to play with formal wear.  We had a cosplay fashion show in addition to the cosplay contest this year.  If there is enough interest out there, maybe some sort of smaller event (as-in, not requiring the main events ballroom) could be put together?

[Chevi]

I was disappointed with badge pick up.  My friend pre-registered but had to wait in line for 1 hour and 45 mins, while friends who registered at con only took 5 mins.  There was really no point in pre-registering and saving $5.00 if it was going to take that long.  He did pre-reg right before it ended, but nonetheless, it shouldn't have taken that long.

I was also told, that I had to pick my badge up first, and turn it in for my artist alley badge, so I waited in line with him as well.  But when I got up there, no one knew what was going on, and it took a good 15 mins before anyone even told me anything, and all they told me was to get up at 6 am and get my badge from them.  Later I saw a sign saying Artist Alley picks up there badge in the Exhibitors Hall, but they didn't even tell me that.  I'd have felt a little better if they at least told me not to worry about it, and pick it up in Exhibitors Hall the next day, but they didn't know anything...

Finally, I know it probably couldn't be helped, but the Portland bums outside of the convention.  Many of them had no disregard for other people, I saw two cosplayers in extravagant costumes made of paper mache, and one bum was trying to smash another's costume, and headbutt the other, laughing about it.  Something should be done about keeping them away from the convention, though I know it might not be possible.

I was pleased with Artist Alley, but as awesome as it was this year, I felt sales were very low this time around, we didn't have alot of traffic it seemed like.  :/  I know it might not necessarily be the convention's fault for this, but a few people did come up to me and say that it took them forever to find Artist Alley.

[MichaelEvans]

Hum... if we're -expanding- the AA I have two ideas for it.

1) Grow it around the corner.
2) A mirror of some kind to make it obvious there is more stuff around the corner.

[murder_of_raven]

Hum... if we're -expanding- the AA I have two ideas for it.

1) Grow it around the corner.
2) A mirror of some kind to make it obvious there is more stuff around the corner.

I would also like to suggest making it so the AA doesn't lead into a dead-end. It really would seem to hurt sales for the people at the dead-end because people (like me) who don't want to press through the crowds filling rest of the the AA don't ever even see their booth up close.

[MichaelEvans]

There are -many- security and safety issues involved in the area between the 'dead end' and the other part of the areas.

If I had to lay things out, I think I'd probably put vendors who need deliveries periodically in that area, given the freight elevator/loading dock access.

I think that would actually -benefit- Uwajimaya, so they could more readily replenish their wares and optionally take some off site/refresh mid-day.  With that in the area down there it would naturally be a crowd magnet.  Nekopan might be a good fit for the other part of that corner.  Then maybe a photo area as extra crowd capacitance and the AA in a rough L from the elevators to the corner and a bit around it.

[Rathany]

There are -many- security and safety issues involved in the area between the 'dead end' and the other part of the areas.

If I had to lay things out, I think I'd probably put vendors who need deliveries periodically in that area, given the freight elevator/loading dock access.

I think that would actually -benefit- Uwajimaya, so they could more readily replenish their wares and optionally take some off site/refresh mid-day.  With that in the area down there it would naturally be a crowd magnet.  Nekopan might be a good fit for the other part of that corner.  Then maybe a photo area as extra crowd capacitance and the AA in a rough L from the elevators to the corner and a bit around it.

Vendors absolutely MAY NOT take deliveries during the con.  If they want it, it best by there by the end of set up. 

[DevinShadowV]

I have a idea do it at the Oregon Convention Center...the place is big enough for the con and more even though the hotels are around the convention but it breaks up the mayhem from what happened this year.

[MichaelEvans]

I have a idea do it at the Oregon Convention Center...the place is big enough for the con and more even though the hotels are around the convention but it breaks up the mayhem from what happened this year.

Already mentioned in at least two other threads...
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11118.msg466864#msg466864
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11175.msg465789#msg465789

The short answer (summarizing others) is that event spaces in hotels are subsidized by the room reservations.  The hotel naturally also shaves off a little of their usual price to encourage people to use the event code and because of the bulk rate block booking of the rooms; though there is still a portion of what would otherwise be profit from the rooms paying for the space used for events.

At a convention center the space is rented out at rates that are for the profit of the space; and the convention center is one of few places in Oregon that large of that configuration.  They charge accordingly for the scarcity.  However read the other threads, there's far more information there.

[RemSaverem]

*cowers in the corner in case anyone doesn't like the idea*
What if one of the big events, either a concert or a masquerade ball or a rave, were moved to Friday night and a separate charge applied? That might actually alleviate not only some of the during-con crowding of the schedule and the rooms, but also generate money, and also meet the needs of those who, for whatever reason, didn't pre-reg and find out (before or on con Friday) that there won't be the ability to buy a ticket at the door for the con, but they could go to this one event with everyone....?

[Kurokaizoku]

*cowers in the corner in case anyone doesn't like the idea*
What if one of the big events, either a concert or a masquerade ball or a rave, were moved to Friday night and a separate charge applied? That might actually alleviate not only some of the during-con crowding of the schedule and the rooms, but also generate money, and also meet the needs of those who, for whatever reason, didn't pre-reg and find out (before or on con Friday) that there won't be the ability to buy a ticket at the door for the con, but they could go to this one event with everyone....?

I like the idea but I'm not sure of everything that would be involved to make it happen. I think it is something that could be looked into. I do know that Friday night is generally busy for everyone and it does also start to make the con a longer con. But we had gaming open friday night. I think it is a good idea. Outside of the box.

[DevinShadowV]

I have a idea do it at the Oregon Convention Center...the place is big enough for the con and more even though the hotels are around the convention but it breaks up the mayhem from what happened this year.

Already mentioned in at least two other threads...
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11118.msg466864#msg466864
http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11175.msg465789#msg465789

The short answer (summarizing others) is that event spaces in hotels are subsidized by the room reservations.  The hotel naturally also shaves off a little of their usual price to encourage people to use the event code and because of the bulk rate block booking of the rooms; though there is still a portion of what would otherwise be profit from the rooms paying for the space used for events.

At a convention center the space is rented out at rates that are for the profit of the space; and the convention center is one of few places in Oregon that large of that configuration.  They charge accordingly for the scarcity.  However read the other threads, there's far more information there.

True but for this year it was overfilled and needs to be bigger for next year that's basically it.

[shanime_panda]

it just needs to not rain next year -_-

[murder_of_raven]

True but for this year it was overfilled and needs to be bigger for next year that's basically it.

Actually, that brings up a logic issue I've been having with the common responses given to the "Why aren't we going to be in the Convention Center next year?" question. Always the response seems to boil down to "its too expensive, we don't have enough money or people yet". However it was previously stated on the forums that Kumoricon is almost entirely funded by the last year's profits. If this year we reached (or indeed exceeded, considering there were people who were turned away) our maximum attendance, how could we make more money after next year? If people get used to non pre-reg'ers getting mass rejected, as people are worried about happening next convention, how will we have more people? It seems like all of the problems, minus the contract, that we'd have with switching venues this year, we'd have the year after that, and there is likely going to be a similar amount of negative response next year based solely on the (in my opinion) questionable merit of the venue. I'm certain that the convention staff have given at least as much thought into this as I have, but reached a very different conclusion. What am I not understanding?

[DevinShadowV]

True but for this year it was overfilled and needs to be bigger for next year that's basically it.

Actually, that brings up a logic issue I've been having with the common responses given to the "Why aren't we going to be in the Convention Center next year?" question. Always the response seems to boil down to "its too expensive, we don't have enough money or people yet". However it was previously stated on the forums that Kumoricon is almost entirely funded by the last year's profits. If this year we reached (or indeed exceeded, considering there were people who were turned away) our maximum attendance, how could we make more money after next year? If people get used to non pre-reg'ers getting mass rejected, as people are worried about happening next convention, how will we have more people? It seems like all of the problems, minus the contract, that we'd have with switching venues this year, we'd have the year after that, and there is likely going to be a similar amount of negative response next year based solely on the (in my opinion) questionable merit of the venue. I'm certain that the convention staff have given at least as much thought into this as I have, but reached a very different conclusion. What am I not understanding?

I understand the money problem but one way or another it's going to have to expanded in the future

[murder_of_raven]

I understand the money problem but one way or another it's going to have to expanded in the future

Well that's assuming the trends don't reverse. I'm sure at the height of the 80's sci-fi conventions not many people looked around and thought "Gee, I wonder what it'll be like when we have to latch onto anime conventions because all the sci-fi conventions have gone under?"

It has to be expanded at some point if we continue to be the same size or larger, which I am of course hoping, but I do think some level of perspective is important.

[Rathany]

@DevinShadowV , if we have no large viable venues in Portland, we have no viable large venues in Portland.

I canna change the laws of physics!!

I've also explained the logistics of this 390859348534897x in the past week.  People kindly linked you to some of the info.  If you have read all of it and still have questions or suggestions, please let me know.

Also, I *AM* going to be doing a big, dog and pony, in person DAWN EXPLAIN FACILITIES panel.  We may even have a special guest for said panel.  I am still confirming details, but I am hoping to have it the same day as elections, just earlier in the day.  There may even be charts and FAQs involved.  Exciting, huh?

So, until then, please, everyone, keep in mind that we are all volunteers here and many people are working their butts off for nothing more than a Tshirt and a spiffy badge and the joy of working with Kcon.  Phrasing things in terms of 'gosh it would be neat if' as opposed to 'have to' and 'must' makes things a little easier on us.  'Cus, hearing things that sound like demands constantly is NOT what gives us the warm fuzzies and makes us want to put our noses back to the grindstone.  If you really want to help, please make sure you have a full understanding of the situation before making suggestions

[DevinShadowV]

ok

[melchizedek]

RE: Ball

So here are my two coppers. 

For both the swing lessons, and the ballroom lessons there was enough space with one of the live events. 

In past years, live events rooms have been smaller, so when we had the ball there people were turned away.  However, live 2 + live 1 is quite a bunch of space.  There could be a more formal dance there with little problem. 

[AllyKat]

In past years, live events rooms have been smaller, so when we had the ball there people were turned away.  However, live 2 + live 1 is quite a bunch of space.  There could be a more formal dance there with little problem. 

Little Problem Except:

Removing the chairs from previous live events.
Setting up Music and Light Equipment and removing the Live Events Equip.
Taking the room dividers down and creating one Live events room.
Creating a queue line and managing it prior to the dance.
Removing whatever panel/workshop that was supposed to be in Live 1 AND Live 2 for that time
Getting enough people interested in an extra dance to justify the time and EXPENSE to changing the room.
Changing the rooms back into two (reversing the above proccess) at graveyard hours and wages (for hotel staff)
preping the rooms for further events.


Only a few problems! LOL Not trying to sound mean... but we keep forgeting all the red tape and black wire
that goes into moving and managing these events.. There is ALOT.

Hope none of us is planning on being a band manager when we grow up... lol I know I'd fail!

~Allykat

[Selkie]

my friend may of already posed it but hey, my idea so i'm throwing it out there. I was in Gaming Staff and was stuck with bag check. i know ppl have said we will now have shelves and all that. but we should also color coordinate the columns of the shelves.
finding #37 in column red would be much more efficient then just #37.

[AllyKat]

my friend may of already posed it but hey, my idea so i'm throwing it out there. I was in Gaming Staff and was stuck with bag check. i know ppl have said we will now have shelves and all that. but we should also color coordinate the columns of the shelves.
finding #37 in column red would be much more efficient then just #37.

Are we sure that the "Bag Check Coordinator" is making shelves for both gamming and the seperate bag check he/she is making?

Just to clarify, I don't know if both are receiving shelving units as of yet, I only heard the fella making the shelves doing it for
the new seperate bag check... but I could have missed a new development...

The biggest problem is needing shelves that are either Ikea-style deconstructable or are easy to put other things on so as not to
take up too much space in transit and are easy to put wherever they are needed.

~Allykat

[thesirensings]

Actually, the Masquerade Ball was one of my favorite events. It makes me sad that you guys are probably going to cut it from next year.

[ScrumYummy]

I know that it might be extremely inconvenient, but I really really think we should post a Yojimbo (or a Hotel Staff, or a designated police officer, etc) at the Pioneer Square MAX station from maybe 10PM-3AM.

I noticed a lot of little problems this year at the convention but this was the only thing that caused me to feel really uncomfortable and unsafe. By that late at night everyone creepy in downtown PDX has heard about the anime convention and everybody normal has gone to bed. I had some really uncomfortable situations myself and I've read about people having even worse experiences on the forums. I know that a security person at PS wouldn't fix everything, but at least people would know there was someone safe to ask for help outside the hotel.

Anywhere that there is public transportation (MAX/bus stop, etc) there are going to be "undesireables" (creepy people); it's like that all the time and has nothing to do with the con. Your best option is to ignore them; they are harmless. If it makes you feel better, carry some mace with you.

[melchizedek]

In past years, live events rooms have been smaller, so when we had the ball there people were turned away.  However, live 2 + live 1 is quite a bunch of space.  There could be a more formal dance there with little problem. 

Little Problem Except:

Removing the chairs from previous live events.
Setting up Music and Light Equipment and removing the Live Events Equip.
Taking the room dividers down and creating one Live events room.
Creating a queue line and managing it prior to the dance.
Removing whatever panel/workshop that was supposed to be in Live 1 AND Live 2 for that time
Getting enough people interested in an extra dance to justify the time and EXPENSE to changing the room.
Changing the rooms back into two (reversing the above proccess) at graveyard hours and wages (for hotel staff)
preping the rooms for further events.


Only a few problems! LOL Not trying to sound mean... but we keep forgeting all the red tape and black wire
that goes into moving and managing these events.. There is ALOT.

Hope none of us is planning on being a band manager when we grow up... lol I know I'd fail!

~Allykat

None of these above problems are valid. 

#1 chair are already removed for dance lesson.
#2 music is already set up for dance
#3 there already was a big line for the dance lesson, wasn't that bad.
#4 again, the room was changed out anyway, no need to change it out more.
#5 change back? This year once live events was combined it was left that way for the rest of con.

[murder_of_raven]

Anywhere that there is public transportation (MAX/bus stop, etc) there are going to be "undesirables" (creepy people); it's like that all the time and has nothing to do with the con. Your best option is to ignore them; they are harmless. If it makes you feel better, carry some mace with you.

Umm... clearly you missed earlier discussions of this topic. Several people have voiced actual concerns about their safety, including myself. And it was markedly worse than the past 3 Kumoricons (in my opinion).

[AllyKat]

None of these above problems are valid. 

#1 chair are already removed for dance lesson.
#2 music is already set up for dance
#3 there already was a big line for the dance lesson, wasn't that bad.
#4 again, the room was changed out anyway, no need to change it out more.
#5 change back? This year once live events was combined it was left that way for the rest of con.

Okay I will see your thoughts and raise you my own;

Chairs for dance lesson: you are using alternate causality and misquotation to refute your point. I
was NOT trying to say that this is caused by putting the dance in the live events combined, merely
to point out that it IS a problem when using those rooms, moving chairs takes time, and even as this
year saw, it took extra time then considered to remove all the chairs from just ONE live room, you are
proposing the removal of chairs from BOTH at the same time, whereas it was staggered this year.
(risemball took place 1 hour after Ballroom dance lessons started, to give the cleanup crew time to
rest) Imagine the proccess involved in removing the chairs from both simultaneously? It is a problem,
but certainly not the biggest one.

Music is set up for the dance: Now the points are getting really confused. By justifying that chair
removal occurs and the rooms stay (basically) the same for the rest of the con, meaning little maitainence
after set up, you are confusing your room designations. The dance was NOT in Live 1 & 2 this year, and
will probably NEVER be in such as it is deffinetely too big an event. Not to mention it requires the full sound
set up, as do the AMV contest, the Cosplay Contest, and all the other MAIN EVENTS. I capitalize those
words because it is important to understand that the Masquerade ball is considered a main event, needing
the full sound system. Would it sound smart to have to dismantle and re-assemble the sound system in
live 1&2 only to need to rush it down to the ball room and set it back up again for the dance afterwards?
To put this simply; the Masq. Ball cannot actually BE in live 1 & 2 for the simple fact that it is a set up
nightmare as far as sound. You are asking for the main events set-up in a non-main events room. This is
a waste of time and energy to an already overworked staff.

Line for Dance = Line for Masq. Ball: See the previous point. You are again confusing your room
designations. The Line for the dance was able to be snaked outside, permiting more room and less fire
hazzard. As Live 1 & 2 are on the 2nd floor balcony lobby, how do you propose we snake a line of minimum
200 people about the balcony without creating a firehazard? And if we do this then we have a huge line of
people waiting for 1/2 hour or more for there event taking up a large amount of the lobby capacity while
people who want to get to their events are stuck on floors waiting for the ability to get where they want to
go. I agree with you that the line will be there no matter what. But you cannot have the Masq Ball in a
place where the line will cause a disturbance or a hazzard to the convention or the safety of the hotel.

Changing the room back: I'll conceed that, indeed, the room was set up in a 1 room format from
the dating game on, however, there would still be the need to set up the correct sound equipment for
that rooms events and the need to clean up the room after the dance. There is always a "set-up" and
a "take down" and these things do take time and energy, no matter how small of amount of work needs
being done. But you are right, this is a win on your side, the room would then be ready for any of the
events thereafter. But I will point out also that this dissallows an event from taking place in the Live
rooms while the Masq ball is going on and during it's set up and take down.

It's really a moot point as the amount of people who go to the dance lessons doesn't neccissarily
indicate the number of people attending the ball. What about the people who already know how to
dance, or don't care and will instead just Middle-school there way through it, or are just coming to
see the masks and enjoy the costumes.....

There are endless refutations on either side really... the main point is they most likely will not be
moving the masqurade ball, if they even keep it in the main conventions events schedule, so the
rebuttals do nothing but waste bandwidth.

~Allykat

[ScrumYummy]

Anywhere that there is public transportation (MAX/bus stop, etc) there are going to be "undesirables" (creepy people); it's like that all the time and has nothing to do with the con. Your best option is to ignore them; they are harmless. If it makes you feel better, carry some mace with you.

Umm... clearly you missed earlier discussions of this topic. Several people have voiced actual concerns about their safety, including myself. And it was markedly worse than the past 3 Kumoricons (in my opinion).

Yeah, that's because it was held downtown (whereas the previous locations were Lloyd, Vancouver, and Jantzen Beach). Look, I'm downtown late at night all the time. I understand that there is a "presence" there of "scary" people, but there is also a police patrol that visits the Square every fifteen minutes. It's a lot safer than you think. Especially when you add police presence to population density and the fact that there are ALWAYS people walking around downtown, even at four in the morning, I would say that's it's a LOT safer that over in Lloyd, where statistically you are more likely to get shot or abducted in one of the many dark, empty parking lots over there.

But like I said, if it makes you feel more comfortable (because you have the right to feel safe and comfortable) keep your cell phone on and with you, and carry some mace/pepper spray. Walk in well-lit areas where there are people. You'll be fine.

[murder_of_raven]

Yeah, that's because it was held downtown (whereas the previous locations were Lloyd, Vancouver, and Jantzen Beach). Look, I'm downtown late at night all the time. I understand that there is a "presence" there of "scary" people, but there is also a police patrol that visits the Square every fifteen minutes. It's a lot safer than you think. Especially when you add police presence to population density and the fact that there are ALWAYS people walking around downtown, even at four in the morning, I would say that's it's a LOT safer that over in Lloyd, where statistically you are more likely to get shot or abducted in one of the many dark, empty parking lots over there.

But like I said, if it makes you feel more comfortable (because you have the right to feel safe and comfortable) keep your cell phone on and with you, and carry some mace/pepper spray. Walk in well-lit areas where there are people. You'll be fine.

I hate to be like this but were you a young girl in a frilly costume? If not I doubt you get the sort of negative attention downtown as me and others experienced. And, like myself, some of us do not have access to cell phones or pepper spray. Also, I am not sure hotel/convention policy even allows us to be carrying the former to begin with. I am not worried for my personal safety, I bring up that idea because, despite lots of other discussions about "inappropriate conduct", the most dangerous situations I saw or were involved in were definitely all off site, and the majority of them were at night. As I said earlier on the forums, if something really bad were to happen (ie a cosplayer being abducted and raped) the negative press would likely focus on our convention rather than the dangers of downtown.

And, on the subject of police presence, the time that I was most specifically harassed (by a large, drunk man) there was a police officer less than one-hundred yards away who started walking /away/ when she noticed him messing with me. So excuse me for questioning their reliability.

[ScrumYummy]

I hate to be like this but were you a young girl in a frilly costume? If not I doubt you get the sort of negative attention downtown as me and others experienced. And, like myself, some of us do not have access to cell phones or pepper spray. Also, I am not sure hotel/convention policy even allows us to be carrying the former to begin with. I am not worried for my personal safety, I bring up that idea because, despite lots of other discussions about "inappropriate conduct", the most dangerous situations I saw or were involved in were definitely all off site, and the majority of them were at night. As I said earlier on the forums, if something really bad were to happen (ie a cosplayer being abducted and raped) the negative press would likely focus on our convention rather than the dangers of downtown.

And, on the subject of police presence, the time that I was most specifically harassed (by a large, drunk man) there was a police officer less than one-hundred yards away who started walking /away/ when she noticed him messing with me. So excuse me for questioning their reliability.

I walk around downtown in skirts all the time, and I'm a youngish girl (24, and I look much younger). Yeah, it draws more attention than when you don't.

The hotel should definitely allow you to carry a cell phone. Assuming you meant to say "latter," I would assume they wouldn't have a problem with pepper spray, seeing as you don't have to have a permit to carry it and it is not considered a concealed weapon (Oregon has no legal restrictions on pepper spray). Also, I have friends that carry it everywhere and never have any problems (although, keep in mind, you can't take it on a plane). Just order some off the internet, sew a pocket in your frilly dress, and keep it in there. Seriously.

I find it really amusing that you are worried about a con-goer being abducted and raped. At the current location, it is less likely to happen than in the former locations. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to be abducted/raped from walking in an empty parking lot out in Vancouver, Jantzen Beach, or Lloyd Center than in a densely populated Downtown. It's less likely to happen downtown because there IS a police presence, even if they don't stop people from talking to you (sorry that it happened, but seriously, if the police person had intervened, they might have been accused of harassment and even made the situation worse; the fact that there WAS a police officer there should make you feel better, not worse).

As far as the "dangers of downtown" go, you are more likely to be hit by a car walking on a cross-walk than you are to be abducted and/or raped. Sorry that a drunk man talked to you, but trust me, if I were you, I would be more concerned about drivers that aren't paying attention to pedestrians.

PS...I don't mean to down-play what happened to you or make it sound like it's not a concern. It's horrible, and I know that because it's happened to me a lot. A lot. I'm downtown all the time, seriously. But trust me, this should not be your biggest concern if you are worried about safety. This is sensationalism of the "dangers of an urban setting." Downtown is very safe, unless of course you consider your chances of being hit by a car from being a pedestrian or being on a bicycle. And that is the true "danger of downtown." If you are worried about rape, then stay out of the suburbs, where there is no one to hear you scream.

[AllyKat]

I know I am gonna sound horrible for saying it but I honestly don't care:

All this basically comes down to is understanding your surroundings and yourself.

You cannot argue that it's not fair that just because you were wearing a revealing/cute/alluring
dress or garmet that you do NOT warrant leering, on the same token it is NOT an open invitation
to be flirted with/cat called. However, common sense must be put in place when you go out into
the free world when wearing such attire; men are going to look, the less polite are going to stare,
the rude are going to comment and the creepy are going to get up-close and personal. You are
first and foremost wearing something that will attract attention, you know this because it is the
precise reason why we cosplay, to get people to notice our amazing outfits. And while in con-space
you may be commented on by your craftsmanship or closeness to cannon-wear, out in the "real
world" all people without Anime-Cultural training see is a girl in a short skirt, or a low cut top or a
pretty pink frilly maid outfit walking around the streets of downtown with no real protection late
at night. They see someone who has made themselves a focus point, and they feel no reason not
to fall into the focus point. If you are attractive and young looking this doubles. It's just common
sense.

But, that doesn't help any con-goer protect themselves from the creeps and street folk that may
disregard your personal space and rights because you are dressed in a way that calls attention to
yourself. So; lets talk about options to protect from wierdos:

#1. Pick a new cosplay.
            This isn't a fun one, but if you are afraid of being screwed with, choose a cosplay that is
either less conspicous or covers you up and doesn't look so alluring. Use this concept; what would
my non-anime understanding father/grandfather/cousin/brother think if a girl walked by in this outfit.
Regardless of how we feel we SHOULD be percieved in these outfits, we have no control over there
thoughts. If it's not worth it to you to be leered at for dressing that way, find something else.

#2. Carry mace.
             It was discussed earlier yes, but some people don't seem to realize the ease and importance
of this. If you live/work/play in downtown portland, are female and you DO NOT carry mace, you are
doing yourself a dis-service. Just the comfort of having that blue canister around my neck on my ride
home on the max from Llyod Center, to S.E. Portland and Gresham quelled a LOT of my fears. If the
con decides mace is not allowed to be kept on any person in con-space, we may need to talk to the
board to change that rule. Clearly the girls of the con need security, and as long as we do not ABUSE
the privilage of having that security, I'm sure it would put a lot of minds at ease. I will tell you I personally
prefer the model I own:
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_52110?cm_mmc=froogle-_-325-5-6-_--1-_-38-610-017-83&hvarAID=froogle&mr:trackingCode=954935A9-E881-DE11-B712-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA
Now, the picture shows a more "purse friendly" version, it's not very pretty of a canister, but the one I
carry comes in so many pretty colors and attaches right to my key chain, or if you wear a lanyard can be
clipped right on to that. Its great because it is a 3 in 1 pepper spray, military grade tear gas and UV
marking dye. This means that you imobilize, debilitate and then mark your attaker so that, if you get a good
descrip, and report it to the cops, if they find the guy they can identify them by the uv paint (which you
can't see in any light but uv and also does NOT wash of easily) for quick conviction! I have never had to
use this as long as I have held it around my neck and I lived in Gresham (need I go into how many times
gresham has been on TV for shootings, rape and kidnapping?) and S.E. Portland (gangs, drugs and more illegal
activity) for 3 years. All of which my jobs required me to be on my way home alone, at any time between 12:00am
and 1:00am. There is no fool proof way to stay safe, but you should no that any protection visible is a deterant.
Evil do-ers look for an easy target, if you look lost, without a cell phone and are alone or with girls your same
build and confusion, you are that easy target. So carry mace.

#3. Travel in groups!
              You were probably doing this but your group needs to be more active and vigilant if indeed you were
in a group. And by group I don't mean 3 people, after 8pm in downtown portland, unless you are feeling like
playing a game of russian roulette, you should be with AT LEAST 6-8 people, and at least ONE of them should
be male. You are making friends at the convention anyway right? If you really need to travel more than 5 blocks
from the con-space, grab some guys to take with your group and chat them up, get them to join you to whatever
destination you are headed so that your group looks intimidating and non-confrontable. Also, make it a point to
know WHERE you are going and not look lost or confused, it's the weakest look a group of girls can present and
can be a green light for pestering from those that would do you harm. Sticking to a plan and staying in large groups
is not just SAFE, but FUN! The more the Merrier, right?

Every portlander should know these rules, keep the clothing simple, keep security on your person, visible or concealed
depending on the type (but have a permit please!) Look like you know where you are and what your doing, and stay
with a group whenever possible. It's the laws of a safe city dweller, and those who are NOT from metro should ask
those of us who have lived there and done that. It's a hard fact of life that cities just are not that secure, not as
secure as small towns at least, and even then I've seen more creeps messing with people in McMinnville then I ever
got in Portland, but that may be cause people in portland KNOW, and small town folk just have never gotten the message.

If you want to dress in a way that is attracting attention on ANY level or in ANY style, do so! Have fun! I plan to dress
as Card Captor Sakura Kinomoto, which means short frilly skirt and the whole nine yards, but I also plan to be prepared
for the wierdos, with my mace and my guy friends, and a well polished knowledge of the city. Lets all help eachother
have exactly the same tools for a safe convention!

~Allykat

[Animeman73]

This is Animeman73. I've been hearing a lot of people talking what they can do to stay safe. Well as a public service to my fellow Kumoricon attendees and staff I offer a solution. On my blog over on Wordpress.com I have a post about how to stay safe at a convention. I'd like any and all who read this to go over to Wordpress and read my post. Also if you have a suggestion on something to add please place the suggestion in the comment box at the very bottom of the post. I hope this post on my blog you find useful. Here's a Permalink to get you there:

http://scififantasyanimeman.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/how-to-stay-safe-at-a-convention/

[ScrumYummy]

Both of your posts are loaded with excellent advice. (Maybe there should be a page in the convention booklet combining the advice from both of your posts?? That way con-goers who have concerns will have that available to them.)

Although Animeman73, I think you should change the last title in your blog post to "Bill don't be an hero" XD

It's the laws of a safe city dweller, and those who are NOT from metro should ask
those of us who have lived there and done that. It's a hard fact of life that cities just are not that secure, not as
secure as small towns at least, and even then I've seen more creeps messing with people in McMinnville then I ever
got in Portland, but that may be cause people in portland KNOW, and small town folk just have never gotten the message.

I've lived in other cities, and from what I seen Portland has been the safest I've ever been in. Sure, I wouldn't want to be stranded by myself on SE 82nd at two in the morning, but downtown is another story. They have been focusing a police effort there to keep it clean, and it shows. I honestly don't feel that convention-goers should worry, however your post and Animeman73's blog post are both excellent sources of information for those who would feel more comfortable being prepared. Like I said, I think maybe a page in the convention booklet addressing attendant safety would probably help a lot of people feel more comfortable while visiting the convention.

(Although, should this be implemented, I IMPLORE you PLEASE, do not make it sound scary! Take the approach that being prepared is always a good thing, but don't give the impression that people need to walk around frightened.)

[murder_of_raven]

This is Animeman73. I've been hearing a lot of people talking what they can do to stay safe.

I think that this discussion has devolved to that point, yes, but I was /never/ talking about my own personal safety nor am I not smart enough to put together a half-dozen common sense ideas. The point I was trying to make is we're looking at 6000+ people, half of them girls, most of them young, and nearly all of those who are both cannot afford to stay at the Hilton because it is incredibly expensive. There is a point where personal responsibility only goes so far and I was trying to point out that we as a convention should be doing a lot more to protect our attendees, especially if we insist on being in the middle of downtown, with one of the least understanding, most unhelpful hotel staffs I've ever interacted with. My suggestion was that we should acquire some sort of official buddy system, for those girls who might otherwise fall through the cracks and end up alone at 2AM in a sketchy part of downtown. I was certainly not asking to be berated and treated as though I couldn't put it together how to keep myself safe. In conclusion,

I know I am gonna sound horrible for saying it but I honestly don't care:

Yes, yes you do. Thank you for taking the last of a series of posts out of context and making it that much more likely the convention staff would ignore my suggestion. I hope that everything works out for Kumoricon, but I fear that many people carry your same paradoxical view that somehow downtown Portland is somehow safe at night and simultaneously "even if it weren't" it is solely the responsibility of the individual to protect themselves.

[Animeman73]

Easy everyone, easy. Let's not start anything negative here. Murder_of_raven, it was never my intention to berate anyone. I'm just simply offering up advice on how to stay safe. If you have anything to add put it in the comment box at the bottom of my post and be nice about it. I'm more then happy to listen to other people's view and get suggestions on safety. As a matter of fact I've mentioned a buddy system in my COMMUNICATION IS MUST and THERE'S STRENGTH IN NUMBERS...REALLY THERE IS maybe not directly but it's there believe me. Animeman73 is many things but I'm no liar, if I tell you something you can take it to the bank.

And Scrum Yummy XD oh that was good, that was very good. Touche' my good fellow Touche', you win. 

[murder_of_raven]

Easy everyone, easy. Let's not start anything negative here. Murder_of_raven, it was never my intention to berate anyone. I'm just simply offering up advice on how to stay safe. If you have anything to add put it in the comment box at the bottom of my post and be nice about it. I'm more then happy to listen to other people's view and get suggestions on safety. As a matter of fact I've mentioned a buddy system in my COMMUNICATION IS MUST and THERE'S STRENGTH IN NUMBERS...REALLY THERE IS maybe not directly but it's there believe me. Animeman73 is many things but I'm no liar, if I tell you something you can take it to the bank.

And Scrum Yummy XD oh that was good, that was very good. Touche' my good fellow Touche', you win. 

I was not directing any of those comments at you. That is a very good list of suggestions, but it is only that. In most convention settings we would be fine with just some general safety thoughts, I however believe this venue requires some additional effort from the convention itself to make it safe. I meant you no offense. :3

[AllyKat]

(Although, should this be implemented, I IMPLORE you PLEASE, do not make it sound scary! Take the approach that being prepared is always a good thing, but don't give the impression that people need to walk around frightened.)

Thanks for the praise, and I agree, we should bring this up at a future staff meeting, perhaps key this in for the Staff
meeting in November? I also agree that it should be semi-light hearted while informative. Thats why I like keeping
my options full of friendly positives, like a canister of pepper spray in baby pink! or perhaps your costume hints of
neon orange? Forest green? They really do have a million colors to choose from! And also, the idea of staying in groups
and the buddy system makes sense for Convention fun anyway! I mean, who'd want to wander portland alone durring
the convention when there are 5k+ people who are looking to have fun and interact with you!

@Murder of Raven:

Your contention of Convention Responsibility as it applies to security of attendees really doesn't make sense from a logistical standpoint. Convention staff and hotel staff are limited EXPLICITLY to securing the hotel grounds and the hotel grounds only. You may even contend that, on the side walk, people have the freedom to do as the please because in all truth, sidewalks are public property. We cooperate with Hotel Security and Yojimbo because it makes sense. But there jurisdiction is voluntary to us, and a very gray area for them. If an altercation occured on public property, like the sidewalks, it becomes there duty to simply call for police assistance and then report and respond in a peaceful fashion. Citizens arrest aside, once out of the Convention space, any security that it provides are just average joes like you and myself.

While no one wants to hear the words "liability" again, it bares repeating. Your safety is your concern outside of the convention space and the coocoon of populous and security it provides. Because they are not trained officers, and because they are not civil servants, if they were to try and disperse a situation themselves for you, they themselves could arrested or reprimanded for causing a seperate altercation! No one but the police (and yourself in the case of self defense) have authority to stop a predator. There are many cases where boyfriends of victims have gone to jail for manslaughter or other violence crimes for protecting someone who could not defend themselves, because in the blind eyes of justice, the attacks were seen as "unprovoked". While this may not occur in most cases, it is something to remember as each and every security staffer is just a volunteer, and honestly would probably not do anything that put themselves in harms way so much as to fight off an attacker, or protect you in a way that could cause them to be sent to jail for fighting. They would most likely do what any person should do if they see a crime; call the police and make it known that the police are on there way.

Also; you should know that under 13, (honestly under 15 but con rules say...) young girls (and young boys for that matter) should NOT be anywhere alone, this means that if you are going out to Quiznos for a sandwhich, and you leave con-space, it's your own perogative if you want to leave behind your gaurdian, the convention can't stop you. But it's a good idea to keep your parent with you for just such reasons. Above the age line, if you are a minor and out by yourself or with a small group of friends late at night, you should know that you are putting yourself in danger. If you cannot afford a hotel room, then you need to make prior arrangements to have a chaperone or a large group together to make sure you get home safely. The convention provides a hotel space for secure rooms that are within their jurisdiction. If you choose/cannot utilize this tool, it's a hard fact that there really isn't much else they can do for you except tell you to be careful and look both ways when crossing the streets, both figuratively and literally.

Honestly there is no real way the convention staff would ever be able to come up with a "buddy" system, they are short staffed as is, and stretched thin legally speaking when it comes to Security. You are upset, understandably, that situations occured which cannot be changed or taken back that affected your Convention experience. I respect that and am sorry. However, you state that this was never about your personal safety, and yet you consistently take matters personally, instead of looking back at the situation objectively so that your concept has time to be well thought out from all angles. If my feelings were not so, and I was merely playing the part of devils advocate, I'd have to conclude that you had not looked at this theory logistically and are also not open to it's criticism. This is like saying: "Here's a problem I saw, fix it this way, I don't care if it doesn't make sense, my answer is the only one that can work to make me happy." Which is all fine well and good, but probably wont get you much face time with the Board as they will ask and repeat the same answers many people have stated here. That will probably in the end simply frustrate you and make you less likely to come up with an alternative solution to stat quo that actually IS plausible and helpful. Which I would love greatly, because I understand, for tweens and teens, stat quo is not ideal, but with knowledge and information, it's better than other alternatives.

And I also appreciate you understanding that I actually do care when I sound horrible, but my intention in that statement was to say "I am putting aside my carring to hopefully provide a concise informational about the options that have been open to me and that I have utilized and found effective in the situation you are presenting as a problem." I was not intending to mock your plight or make you feel small. I in no way intended to placate you with a "paradoxical view" of Downtown Portland. However, I may have been misleading in my optimism that, since I have never come into any altercation myself in the area, and that I -having more than just visited downtown and actually worked and lived nearby- may know a bit more about the situation that perhaps you do, think that the area is not as dangerous as some of the other options we had in previous years. The danger simply seems more apparent for one; because of the dense population of a small space. And second; it is a very commercial area and you tend to be out later in places where businesses permit the extended stay of patrons.

I earnestly hope I did not make it any more or less likely your proposition is presented to the board. Seeing as the forum is barely a legitimate sounding place for such implimentation of security protocol, the offering of secure alternatives for minors after dark in Downtown portland should be something you present at a Board meeting or to Yoji #1 his/herself. Which brings me to a very key point in the entire issue here:

CURFEW: It is in place for a reason, and while you may not see a difference between Midnight and 2AM I certainly
do. Those drunkards and waywards you fear leave the bars at this hour and you can bet your bottom dollar a cute little fantasy costume looks mighty appetizing, after several drinks when inhibition takes a back seat. For future reference, Portland City Police enforce a metro-wide curfew of 12AM for any and all under the age of 18. The Convention also enforces this rule as they are in Portland limits and in closer contact with PPD then ever before. If you are out past curfew -which you better not be because If I were to catch any minors out, they'd get a stern talking to. I don't tolerate that kind of abhorance to safety and common sense- you better be prepared for the consequences honestly. No one said you should be out that late, nothing is going on that late for you to do that couldn't be done the next day or with a parent to gaurd and watch you, and in THAT instance itself, no complaints to the Convention staff need arise.

If you are honestly calling for the increased assistance from convention staff to help minors BREAK curfew, I am afraid your pleas will most likely fall on deaf ears. This is curfew law in portland:

14A.80.010 Curfew.

A. It is unlawful for any minor to be in or upon any public property or public right of way between the hours specified in this Section, unless such minor is accompanied by a parent, guardian or other person 21 years of age or over and authorized by the parent or by the law to have care and custody of the minor, or unless such minor is then engaged in a school activity or lawful employment that makes it necessary to be in or upon any city property or public right of way during the hours specified in this Section.
For minors under the age of 14 years who have not begun high school, curfew is between 9:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, the curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning.
For children 14 years of age or older who have begun high school, curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, curfew is between 12 midnight and 6 a.m. of the following morning.

So, above 14 years old you can be out till midnight, though I'd tell you that common sense should have you planning to be home and safe well before you hit that mark. Under 14 and I have a huge issue with you #1 being out past midnight in and of itself, and #2 being out without a gaurdian REGARDLESS of time, con rules require and adult so why would you walkabout without one elsewhere?

Those that "Fall through the cracks" as you put it do so by not heeding proper laws, and by disobeying common sense. You know it's getting late, the fact that it is pitch black out tells you so. You know shops are closing and the only places open and permitting you should only be allowing those of a certain age. If you are heading to a club and exiting afterwards, your own words say you know common sense enough to use a buddy system of your own. You don't need another person to tell you that or do that for you, certainly not convention staff. So, I honestly don't see your arguement here, was there a piece I missed? By the way, been reading this one since the begining, so you can't say I pulled it out of context, I answered the question you asked which was "What can the convention do to help me be safe outside of con space." And we told you; "Nothing but provide you with common sense rules to keep yourself safe."

In the end, I think we all just need to remember that we are ALL con-goers and we are all hoping for eachother safety and the best convention we can have! no need to be upset over the dispursal of ideas about ways to solve situations that present themselves... each convention year is different! I hope we get a lot of what went wrong, right this year!

~Allykat

[ScrumYummy]

Alleykat, I'll be at the October meeting, but in case I don't make it to November's, please bring it up XD

sketchy part of downtown

Pioneer Courthouse Square/the banking district are hardly sketchy. This is the last time I'm going to say this--the current con location is actually "safer" than the Doubletree in the Lloyd District. Please stop making this area of town out to be a big bad monster, because honestly, it isn't.

[murder_of_raven]

@AllyKat: Although I am unable to currently respond to your comment, I have read it and agree that you are being rational and thoughtful, although I certainly do not agree with some of your conclusions. For now, I would simply like to verify that I never was suggesting the convention help people break curfew laws, I was instead speaking of our age group, 18-22+, many of whom would be virtually indistinguishable from the age group directly below us (14-18) in the eyes of a predator but who have decidedly more of a right to be out past curfew.

@ScrumYummy: This seems confusing considering never have I heard so many people on the forums complain about being harassed. Perhaps being downtown for so long (an entire long weekend) attracts predators who wouldn't normally be in the area. That certainly seems logical to me.

[AllyKat]

Pioneer Courthouse Square/the banking district are hardly sketchy. This is the last time I'm going to say this--the current con location is actually "safer" than the Doubletree in the Lloyd District. Please stop making this area of town out to be a big bad monster, because honestly, it isn't.

LOL Yeah, if you want scary, head over to my old residence at 122nd and Division on the S.E. side... I was fortunate enough to on a P.O.S. that looked like it was destine for a scrap yard any day, but every one of my friends and neighbors always seemed to be replacing a window and stereo... and we called the cops on a gunshot we heard in our Apartment complex... cops came and literally told us (my friends the apartment managers and I);

Cop #1
"Well, if one of the tenants never comes around to pay rent... and you can't get a hold of them by phone, call us back and we will enter the premises with you incase it's a homicide."

Cop #2
"Or if you get a complaint of a rotting meat smell or something, it only takes a few days for a body to go real bad."

I am not kidding you, scared us all to death! Lol, but I have always considered Pioneer Square to be the ritzy, safe
section of portland, maybe only second to the pearl district in it's security, but thats only cause the pearl has a lot of money to throw around on all those cameras and things.

@Murder of Raven: Thanks for understanding! And I am totally okay with you not agreeing with me on any of my points! Thats what makes debate and deliberation work! If you agreed with me on everything, we'd never end up getting a stalwart solution to a problem we both see. I only see one plausible and logistical solution, but the fact that you are coming up with alternatives and we are deliberating them means that there are other ideas out there, we just have to find them. I appreciate you making me aware of your age demographic, as now your comments make much more sense in terms of curfew. 18 to 22 + (a.k.a. young adult women) do indeed have a serious concern on there hands when it comes to safety late at night, but as adults I think we can conclude that "If you want something done right, you are gonna have to it yourself!"

What we need to come up with is some kind of proveyor of secure lines of traffic, destinations and also perhaps saleable security goods. A Station that also sells rape whistles (I carried one around with me late at night durring highschool when I would attend Speech & Debate tournaments at College Campuses) and pepper spray as well as information on well lit or well populated routes to get to and from destinations that are frequented by con-goers.

Does that sound more effective?

~Allykat

EDIT: I repeated myself.... lol

[CassieR]

Thanks AllyKat for all your points.  Cause you're right, it mostly comes down to liability.

Murder_of_ravens - I personally am very concerned with the safety of female attendees, and I know the execs are as well. We will definitely batting around ideas on how to help attendees feel more comfortable next year walking around, though we always have to be worried about our liability, as our 'authority' (what little we have) absolutely stops at the door. So we can't really set up an official buddy system, because if something happened, we'd be in a lot of trouble legally.  But, perhaps we can help facilitate an attendee volunteer run one.  I know many colleges have sort of a "call for someone to walk you home" program, and perhaps if attendees wanted to set up a buddy system (perhaps via the forum) we could help make that happen. That's just an idea. And we've got a year now to throw around ideas. Or maybe we could have a meeting point for walking to the trimet stop, where we could post the times of the Max.  Though don't we have a max stop right outside the hotel now? That would allow people to connect to the main max line I think (but I haven't used that yet).

Anyways, this is a concern for next year, and its always good to hear your ideas on how we could solve this.  Perhaps if it comes to just needing some attendees to do it so that its not an "official" thing, you'd be interested in helping to make it happen?

[murder_of_raven]

But, perhaps we can help facilitate an attendee volunteer run one.

I am not sure why this idea didn't occur to me but it seems to solve all our problems quite nicely. I don't know how much help I can be (seeing as I live in Eugene most of the year and am of course in need of this sort of buddy system) but if there's anything I can do to help make this happen, anybody should feel free to contact me.

And on the subject of the MAX line: I have two things to say about this. First, the Pioneer Square transit stop is a lot sketchier than I think people would like, 24-7 really. Its worst at night but I guess its not ever really /dangerous/. I think the buddy system thing should focus largely on getting people to and onto the MAX, which seemed to be the biggest problem. Secondly, the MAX stops running really early on Sunday (11PM I think?) which wasn't posted anywhere and sort of screwed over a lot of people, like myself. Luckily I had a ride but I watched young people who didn't have rides go off alone in a bunch of directions. Kcon should really try to warn people about that next year.

@AllyKat- Thanks for the concern you've shown, personally I will be ratifying many of my little mistakes next year (specifically I will obtain pepper spray and a cell phone) but I did get perhaps a little hysterical about protecting others. I really love the idea of having a booth in the dealer's hall selling safety things like that, I think that'd be a really smart idea. And weirdly, I come from NE Killingsworth with is technically "one of the most dangerous places in PDX" but I feel /way/ safer there then Pioneer Square, any time of the day. I don't really know how to explain that one

[AllyKat]

But, perhaps we can help facilitate an attendee volunteer run one.

I am not sure why this idea didn't occur to me but it seems to solve all our problems quite nicely. I don't know how much help I can be (seeing as I live in Eugene most of the year and am of course in need of this sort of buddy system) but if there's anything I can do to help make this happen, anybody should feel free to contact me.

And on the subject of the MAX line: I have two things to say about this. First, the Pioneer Square transit stop is a lot sketchier than I think people would like, 24-7 really. Its worst at night but I guess its not ever really /dangerous/. I think the buddy system thing should focus largely on getting people to and onto the MAX, which seemed to be the biggest problem. Secondly, the MAX stops running really early on Sunday (11PM I think?) which wasn't posted anywhere and sort of screwed over a lot of people, like myself. Luckily I had a ride but I watched young people who didn't have rides go off alone in a bunch of directions. Kcon should really try to warn people about that next year.

@AllyKat- Thanks for the concern you've shown, personally I will be ratifying many of my little mistakes next year (specifically I will obtain pepper spray and a cell phone) but I did get perhaps a little hysterical about protecting others. I really love the idea of having a booth in the dealer's hall selling safety things like that, I think that'd be a really smart idea. And weirdly, I come from NE Killingsworth with is technically "one of the most dangerous places in PDX" but I feel /way/ safer there then Pioneer Square, any time of the day. I don't really know how to explain that one

I Think a lot of what makes downtown so scary to people is the oddities around it. Homeless people abound as well as street folk. Pioneer Square is just a great place for them to beg and pawn and be, lots of warm bodies, close to the burnside bridge (and basically home) and plenty of money carrying folk with a good chance of giving some of it up. The natural vicinity to the main bars and clubs also makes it a keen area for vagrants.

My personal aversions aren't towards these people though, and I can see how, if you DID have an fear or hesitant response towards even just a few of these folks, it must be 10x as hard to walk through Downtown at night. Whereas, in Killingsworth, you probably worry about the gang and race wars (this is from a friend of mine who had to explain to me the issues in Killingsworth, never really been to N.E. that often, cause there has never been anything up that way that I need ^_^ Unless it's Cost-co!) And in S.E. I worry about the criminal activity and more Teen violence. To me, these are more dangerous due to there organization, however other people may see these types of crimes as "don't get involved and it wont effect you". I say similar about vagrants, so in all points, we are both right! It just depends on your personal feelings and how safe you feel there.

I'd like to know what was said at the end of the years staying at the double tree in regards to safety and security. Those would be close to the years where late at night, that same park would be ravaged by TXT GANGZ. Those people who would text there friends a descrip, meet at the park, find someone in resemblance to that descrip, and beat the bloody pulp out of them. I remember working late at Llyod center and having to have a guard take us out to the MAX or our cars in groups because the police didn't know when it would happen until it was too late.

I don't know where I was going with that except that I wonder how the perception was after those years in terms of security outside the convention.

In terms of a buddy system, perhaps it can be more of a destination travel group. I like the idea of it being utilized for people hopping on the MAX and Bus Mall to get home but... what about food and bar trips? This could extend out that far as well and provide people a great deal more comfort going out after say 10pm? If someone is interested in this kind of scheme I could probably work on coming up with a list of destinations (like the concierge would have) that are close by, check them for well lit and secure areas plus populous, then have these be the "Buddy routes" and Allow groups that want to go to these certain areas to meet up at certain places with directions and a planned destination. The worst way to be prepared for an altercation is to not be prepared on your trip. If you know where you are going and have a group going with you, that increases your well being and security a lot!

I can't think of a real way for this to be implimented except maybe as a print-out for people before the convention with locations and information on places for entertainment, plus the neccessary "how to get a group together" pamphlet.... but thats as far as I've gotten on the concept. On the side of a security booth, perhaps we can convince a local sports or security shop to set up some kind of booth at the convention, this might provide the tools we need and the knowledge base for them without taking up valuable volunteer team time? Just a thought.

[ScrumYummy]

Allykat hit the nail on the head; there are a lot of weirdos/creepy people that go through that area looking for spare change, but they are pretty well harmless.

And I hate Lloyd Center. >_>  Haha, I live in NE too, on the south end of 7th (in Irvington). A lot of people react to that with "and you walk around there at night?!?" but it's actually not bad at all. We have a few "shopping cart guys" XD  but they take turns wandering the neighborhood, lol.

Anyway, back on topic, I personally think a page in the con book would be best; if you have people selling "safety gear" attendees might wonder if there is actually a need for it o_o   and it might end up being a giant scare. (By "need," I mean that there are places where you REALLY SHOULD have mace on you at all times, and downtown is not one of those places, although there is nothing wrong with being prepared).

And yeah, if volunteers organized a buddy system, maybe they could have a little booth with hand-outs or something. The booth could be volunteer-run, but maybe the con could allow them to be there (in one of the front areas)?

[AllyKat]

And yeah, if volunteers organized a buddy system, maybe they could have a little booth with hand-outs or something. The booth could be volunteer-run, but maybe the con could allow them to be there (in one of the front areas)?

My only concern with a buddy system booth is that it basically plays out one of two ways:

Option #1: Schauffer/Host/Escort service? You walk up to the booth, tell them the location you want to go to, and
then a volunteer escort takes you there, and then walks back alone? or stays to pick up other people and bring them back? Is there a walkie system so the volunteers //themselves// dont have to walk around alone? Or do they get a buddy too? Also... how many people are we expecting to volunteer for this kind of thing... especially convention attendees... they aren't gonna wanna walk the max route for 4 hours in a shift... and that would mean you'd need 4 people (at least) volunteering at all times, 2 to watch the booth, 2 to be escorts... so thats a lot of volunteers... which is possible, but not probable.

Option #2: Someone steps up to the booth, gives a desired location and there phone number/room number or a way to reach them, and then they simply wait for other people who would like to go to this place and are then contacted by the Buddy Volunteers that there group is ready, and then they go to wherever they want to go. This seems plausible and probable on paper... but for people with off hours destinations, or needs dis-similar to others... it may be awhile or never before someone else joins a group with them large enough to be considered "safe".

I dunno... maybe I'm over thinking it... I just see a lot of hurdles for the year ahead in this circumstance. It's easy for me to dismiss the problem myself... as none of this would really help me or my friends... but I also don't want it to get swept under the rug. If people are getting negative feelings about K-con due to the surronding area, we can't ignore it, we have to address it, even if it's a minority. We are a con for fans by fans after all!

On the subject of a security booth - you are absolutely right Scrummy m'dear! Creating paranoia and fear is just as bad if not worse then the actual threat. Still, something has to be done right... I guess a page in the con book is the best we can really do... I was hoping for something more forward and invasive to get people to actually notice... but... this'll have to work... (providing we are actually able to GET a page in the con book...)

~Allykat

[kylite]

note: quite a few of the big burly yojimbo have volunteered to assist with this
walking alone for them aint no big deal

[RemSaverem]

note: quite a few of the big burly yojimbo have volunteered to assist with this
walking alone for them aint no big deal

I thought about asking one to help me head home to the PSU dorm then thought that could be read the wrong way 

[murder_of_raven]

Allykat hit the nail on the head; there are a lot of weirdos/creepy people that go through that area looking for spare change, but they are pretty well harmless.

This continues to perplex me. The people I had trouble with downtown were /entirely/ late-20's drunk men who obviously had homes and such. The homeless population is indeed harmless; if they were to say, kidnap you, where would they take you? How would they get there? The drunk men lurking about transit centers and such seem to be much more of a threat, considering they are at best hecklers and at worst active predators.

Anyway, back on topic, I personally think a page in the con book would be best; if you have people selling "safety gear" attendees might wonder if there is actually a need for it.

I think that hardly has to be the case. Very few people would consider downtown late at night "completely safe" and these people couldn't be scared at that point. For the rest of the convention, a small, friendly, and unimposing booth could serve as a calm reminder to stay safe (perhaps even providing safety advice as seen on some of the previous posts on this board) and discretely provide safety items to young people who didn't consider the situation enough to bring something like that along (I fell into this category) or are simply not sure where to obtain some of these things on their own (Certainly if I am unclear where to buy pepper spray, certainly some other young adults don't know either). I am not suggesting we have an enormous booth with giant "DANGER" signs all over it, just a little table off in the corner somewhere. Perhaps it could even be combined with the "Buddy Booth"?

My only concern with a buddy system booth is that it basically plays out one of two ways:

I totally agree that we run the risk of going into one of those categories. Instead I think we should organize like Option 2, but have very specific designated routs to a small handful of important areas. Yes, it lacks the versatility of either of your scenarios, but it would be the easiest to organize and, considering there seems to be no option that would actually provide /convenience/ we should continue to focus on safety. I would recommend a common one to the MAX, one to an area that has the highest concentration of restaurants, and one to maybe a popular bar or something. Certainly we don't want to do more than 4 or 5, else we'll run into the "Option 2" problem of people having to wait extremely long times until a full group is assembled.

[/quote]

note: quite a few of the big burly yojimbo have volunteered to assist with this
walking alone for them aint no big deal

That would be quite literally ideal in my eyes. Even a large, creepy, drunk dude probably wouldn't mess with a large group of people that included a "burly yojimbo"

[MichaelEvans]

Two cell-phone carrying adults (visibly old, or at least 20's males) are probably also OK for a few blocks, especially if it's just along the max-lines or a direct line of site to the hotel.  I effectively did that one night around 9-10pm when I grabbed some Mexican food from that slightly upscale place about 6 blocks away;  I know it's not hard core-drunkard time around midnight but the after-dark creepiness was sure starting to kick in.

I also think that stating the obvious, in -large- letters, would be a good idea.  Something that keeps it short and simple.

"Outside the hotel is public property.  Our staff can only call 911 and act as group deterrent/witnesses.  Further they are strictly volunteer."

[murder_of_raven]

"Outside the hotel is public property.  Our staff can only call 911 and act as group deterrent/witnesses.  Further they are strictly volunteer."

Definitely seems to negate many of the concerns with liability that we've argued about in relation to this topic.

[MichaelEvans]

"Outside the hotel is public property.  Our staff can only call 911 and act as group deterrent/witnesses.  Further they are strictly volunteer."

Definitely seems to negate many of the concerns with liability that we've argued about in relation to this topic.

Looking at it again with fresh eyes it still doesn't quite seem complete.  Maybe...

"Outside the hotel is public property.  Our staff are only normal upstanding citizens can only call 911 and act as group deterrent/witnesses.  Further they are strictly volunteer."

[murder_of_raven]

"Outside the hotel is public property.  Our staff are only normal upstanding citizens can only call 911 and act as group deterrent/witnesses.  Further they are strictly volunteer."

Well, I wasn't talking about the specific phrasing. I think that way is a little clunky as well. ::shrug::

[CassieR]

We could certainly include something on the rules and regulations page that is like that... the wording would have to be tweaked some to probably get the message across the best. It something that would need to be discussed with operations.

Actually, all of this is really something for the operations director to handle once they are elected, but its great to keep the ideas coming. Whatever we put in place or help get set up with attendees, will not be perfect. And unfortunately we have to be careful not to stretch it too far. Already, just this discussion has gone from getting people safely to the max so they can go home, to discussing food and bar runs. We won't be able to please everyone, and personally I'd like to focus on just helping our attendees who'd like to stay later for events but are worried about how to get to the max/bus/etc. Late night food runs are a whole different subject, and really one thats best left for groups of friends and personal situations. And ordering in. Never forget that option.

[RemSaverem]

I agree that the Ops Director would logically be involved in this discussion, but I would not think it to be logical to hold without conferring with the convention's attorney, in case there are issues of legal liability involved.

[CassieR]

I agree that the Ops Director would logically be involved in this discussion, but I would not think it to be logical to hold without conferring with the convention's attorney, in case there are issues of legal liability involved.

Absolutely. Unfortunately we must remember that legal trouble could make Kumoricon go bye bye, so we are all very careful about liability. Its great to talk about what we'd like to see happen, but we always need to do the legal reality check.

[RemSaverem]

I agree that the Ops Director would logically be involved in this discussion, but I would not think it to be logical to hold without conferring with the convention's attorney, in case there are issues of legal liability involved.

Absolutely. Unfortunately we must remember that legal trouble could make Kumoricon go bye bye, so we are all very careful about liability. Its great to talk about what we'd like to see happen, but we always need to do the legal reality check.

IMHO the idea of off-site escorts will be a no-go, legally. I'd love for it to be viable, but I think that the con will likely have to not be involved even in facilitating off-site escorts online, lest G-d forbid some predator type take advantage of the info therein.

[CassieR]

Yeah, I agree, its going to be very tricky, and possibly legally a problem.  Thats why I'd like to look into helping attendees set up something, or even maybe designate a buddy point. But it would have to be very clear that this was at the attendees own risk, etc. 

Maybe we need to just start encouraging attendees to use the message board to make new friends before the con, so they have a group to hang out with.

[kylite]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

[RemSaverem]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

that's sweet

[murder_of_raven]

please ntoe that I did say we would be willing to volunteer, not as con staff but as safe people. were just that nice

that's sweet

Yes, definitely agreed. Maybe if this all ends up falling through I'll take one of you up on the offer on an individual level... although /hopefully/ I'll be in a hotel room next year so maybe this won't be an issue for me. Maybe.

[xcthulhux]

the escort service could be something set up in the dealers hall.
have scheduled times for volunteer escorts to take you to your car, the max, the executive tower, or whatever.
they just have to sign up for it ahead of time, depending on what time they want to go to said place.

[MichaelEvans]

The route between the two hotel buildings is -quite- short.  I believe an alternate solution might suffice for that area.  As it is a public place, IIRC, it is perfectly legal to produce video records of all activity in that area.  Simply doing that and posting that the area is monitored by camera might be enough to keep anyone remotely sane from even groping someone else.  Obviously there is no defense against the insane; only offense, which would now be easy to mount in a court of law.

[Animeman73]

ATTENTION KUMORICON STAFF!!! I, Animeman73 again offer up an ultimate challenge to you! A couple years back I believe it was at the Vancouver Hilton you guys had a panel called Whose Line is it Anyway, a sort of improv game. Well my challenege to you is you can make it (18+) or whatever at your discretion but do you think you could bring that back? Or if I'm mistaken could you do a panel or live event involving that? Well, what do you say?

[AllyKat]

I would love to run a "Whose Anime Is It Anyway" Panel for the 18+ age group if enough people are interested. I am a big fan of/well trained in
improv and comedy sports activities and this could be totally fun in an anime style!

~Allykat

[RobinSena]

Can we please, please (with sugar on top), please try to get a discount on the hotel parking this year?  The three other hotels I've stayed at for K-con have all given us discounts for parking, or at least had free lots we could take over, even if it meant a block walk.  $40+ dollars (or having to move your car everyday) last year for parking was/is rather ridiculous.  I'd think that at least a flat $20 would be more fair and with far less price gouging.   Please? =^_^=

[AllyKat]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

What I AM going to try to do is see if I can work a deal out with smart park... I'm not sure how I'd go about this, it'd feel like you'd have to show your badge or something in order to get a "Kumoricon" Discount, but smart park is much cheaper than hotel parking at any rate, although you will NOT have in/out option.

I will probably know more on the parking situation as we get closer to con date.

~Allykat

[Animeman73]

One of the advanatges of being legally blind is I don't have to worry about parking. I can just take the bus or have my retired professional driver stepfather drop me off at the hotel. I know it may seem like a hassle but I find you can save a bundle on parking if you get a life and/or take the bus. You can't go wrong with Tri-Met.

[Sutie]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

Hate to be the downer but.... doesn't the con recive funds from the venders renting out space? So to put it simple it's costing us, the attendees, to have the venders there.

[AllyKat]

No matter which way you look at it, something is going to be problematic somewhere in this situation,
there is no "Perfect" solution to the parking problem when you get right down to it, because it will never
be free parking right next to people's room's. There will undoubtably be problems. The joy of having such
a central downtown location is the bane of people who drive's existence. But, could you imagine eliminating
the vendors and AA from the convention? Less money = less convention fun, and also... No vendors?
Seriously! There are solutions, and like I said, I am working on them, but everyone is not going to be 100%
happy with whatever outcome is selected. To have a convention anywhere, you make concessions and it
isn't always happy, but its the border-land where things work and are better than they could be that you
have to work at.

Tri-met is a GREAT option for ANYONE considering staying at the hotel all the days and who lives nearby the
portland metro. Most cities nearby have a smaller less frequent bus system that eventually connects to the
trimet system. I can ride from McMinnville to Portland without too much difficulty, and if you do a dance, you
could get to Portland from Eugene on some sort of mass transit! Of course I understand for cosplayers this
posses a challenge, and no one likes challenges when trying to get to a convention, but when push comes to
shove, we all know Portland is not a car friendly city, and we can't expect that to change just for our convention.

What we can do is try and work the system to get us a better deal! And I am taking that angle on the task!

I am not 100% sure what point you are trying to make with the fact that it costs convention go-ers money to
have the vendors in the parking/exhibit hall area Sutie, but the way I see it, as a con go-er last year... EVERYTHING
about the convention cost me money... it isn't free, but it's also not for profit. Everything costs money and the
convention has to pay for everything else... there isn't any greed in the budget, it's all about making next years
convention better. With that in mind we do the best we can.

~Allykat

[Sutie]

Oh no, it's not your falt at all. Portland is not a car owner friendly city. I guess after three years living up here in the north west, I'm still holding a grudge against it.
I can understand that your job is hard, especially figuring out the hotel and parking situations. I have family that work with those things with a different anime con and I hear about all the stress you guys (board of directors) go through. I thank you for your work and looking into what you can. Personally, I can't figure out a solution that makes everyone happy and how you had it last year looks to be best. It still sucks that 40 bucks is blown on parking alone.

[AllyKat]

No Doubt! 40 buck is crazy! which is why I can hopefully convince some smart park nearby that we will give them a full lot all weekend if they give us a discount... but we will see how that goes! ^_^

~Ally

[RobinSena]

I personally (and the others in my carpool) don't care if we have to walk a couple blocks from the parking lot, if it's a much better deal - that's what is was a couple years ago, when we had that awesome huge lot of free parking. =^_^=

[AllyKat]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

[Rathany]

I am looking into a parking program, but here is the problem;

The actual parking lot that the Hotel controls for guests and such, is where we have the Exhibitors Hall.
Meaning their parking is over run by our fun fun dealers! We use parking structures that work WITH the hotel, but not all of the surrounding ones (The one just up the street from the main tower) are actually owned by hilton I believe.

Hate to be the downer but.... doesn't the con recive funds from the venders renting out space? So to put it simple it's costing us, the attendees, to have the venders there.

Dealer's Hall is one of the major attractions of a convention.  And, actually, we usually break even on it. 

[Evaldas]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

I think she was the Vancouver Hilton in 2007 that had the huge free parking lot next to the hotel. I remember because I had to get there early so I could get a spot.

[RobinSena]

you wouldn't happen to remember what hotel that was at that year? Or even just what year that
was?

~Allykat

I think she was the Vancouver Hilton in 2007 that had the huge free parking lot next to the hotel. I remember because I had to get there early so I could get a spot.

I had to go find my notes, but yes, it was the 2007 hotel.  The free parking lot was a block over and around the corner, something kind of like:
[P][ ]
[ ][H]
because I remember having to go around a random building and over to get to the hotel.  But that was an awesome one, I loved having the anniversary party with all of the people dressed up in Victorian outfits, and us in our cosplay there at the same time, plus the food was yummy

[murder_of_raven]

I remember having to go around a random building and over to get to the hotel.  But that was an awesome one, I loved having the anniversary party with all of the people dressed up in Victorian outfits, and us in our cosplay there at the same time, plus the food was yummy

Oh wow! I remember that too! That was absolutely fabulous. I know there are a maelstrom of reasons and such that we're stuck in Hilton for now, but I really think that hotel was exactly the /type/ of venue that was right for Kcon. We should shoot for something like that next time.

[AllyKat]

If we want to stay a Portland Convention... we have to give in to the fact that parking will be
at a premium... but, if you show real support (AKA more voices) say what you really want is
a Vancouver... more, shall we say, "suburban" Convention... the board will start looking at that
more seriously.

Right now, I'm getting two different stories, attendees want Convention Center, but they also
want the simplicity of a cheap, city hotel. Vancouver provides a lot of space to get cheaper
ammenities... but they don't have the big venues and the location to compete with the metropolis
of Portland's downtown area....

In the end, that is my quest... the ever illusive happy medium.

~Allykat

[murder_of_raven]

Hate to post again so soon, but I'd like to say I am actually equally happy with both ideas. I think not all of us are too hard to please, I just really really do not think we should ever be downtown again, if we have a choice. This is my only preference.

[AllyKat]

That sounds like a feeling a lot of people have... but hey, who knows? This year you might be pleasantly suprised by the AWESOME FUN TIMES we have cooking for everyone!

*Can't contain her excitement for Kumoricon 2010*

I have a feeling the board is near the point of killing me over my way to excited-ness!

LOL

~Allykat

[sandrobotticelli]

Hate to post again so soon, but I'd like to say I am actually equally happy with both ideas. I think not all of us are too hard to please, I just really really do not think we should ever be downtown again, if we have a choice. This is my only preference.

I would have to agree. True, there are a lot of places downtown that are larger for the size of our convention, but personally it can get really crowded really fast. Being in the middle of downtown was kind of a pain, mostly because there were so many of us cosplayers running around and I heard a lot of people who weren't attending the convention complaining about us taking up the sidewalk and I felt there was more pressure for us to stay inside as much as possible. I know it's asking for a lot, and it's probably impossible, but I think it would be great if we could get a place next to a park or something, that way we can roam about and won't upset as many people who are trying to walk along the sidewalks and yet there is not the pressure of having to stay inside either. Not to mention I just generally really like hanging out in parks.

[The_Panda]

I know it's been discussed, but i need to project the thoughts of more than a few Eugene con goers, and some Californians, too.

1. This year, with the dance situation, a lot of us were all appalled and more than a bit upset. We were looking forward to that so much, and none of us got to. In fact, we were encouraged to go, and then told we couldn't, (which we kinda guessed when we looked at the clock and it was 11:45.) Anyone who is coming from Eugene this year who is a minor is looking forward to a dance. I myself have never gone to the bands, though I was kinda interested in seeing the Slants. But I still have not seen a band in my going on three years. I would take a dance, (Rave or Masquerade.)

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

I know this isn't really offering anything useful at the moment, but if these things are possible, it would make the experience that much better. (And less complicated.)

[AllyKat]

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

What location? I am confused? What are we talking about here? If you are referring to anything in Vancouver,
exactly what makes the 8 mile difference so much of a hindrance? I'm not upset, just confused. I don't want
to miss an obvious issue with a Vancouver hotel option, if we put Vancouver hotels on the table as an option.

On the subject of dances vs bands; I think this issue has, for the most part been resolved. There isnt going to be
anything we can do about the curfew, but most likely their should be a way for dancing to happen for those
loverly kids and minors who can't stay about the con after late! More details to follow from prog eventually.

We luuurve input. I just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of the suggestions to make future conventions
better. However;

Lets remember this thread was for the 2010 year, not future years. We cannot do anything about hotel stuff
this year. We are at the Downtown Hilton for the 2010 con year, no ifs ands or buts.

~Allykat

[Hazuza]

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is the right place, but...

Is there any possibility of splitting the Artist Alley into two parts this year; One on the second floor and one in the exhibitors hall?

I heard that having it on the second floor was considered last year, but there would be space for more artists if it was in the exhibitors' hall. (of course, I might've heard wrong) You could charge more for spaces on the second floor, since artists there would be able to set up/take down tables whenever they wish, and they would get much more exposure.
_{And I know I'm not the only one who'd love Nekopan being at the center of the con *u*}

[AllyKat]

Oh yeah, I dunno if this is the right place, but...

Is there any possibility of splitting the Artist Alley into two parts this year; One on the second floor and one in the exhibitors hall?

I heard that having it on the second floor was considered last year, but there would be space for more artists if it was in the exhibitors' hall. (of course, I might've heard wrong) You could charge more for spaces on the second floor, since artists there would be able to set up/take down tables whenever they wish, and they would get much more exposure.
_{And I know I'm not the only one who'd love Nekopan being at the center of the con *u*}

Logistically off the top of my head that doesn't seem feasible, I know some of the artists would have a hard time dealing with the lack of secuirty and numerical safety with being stranded on the reg floor (which I am assuming is what you are talking about) Also, remember space is a premium everywhere at this convention, and setting up tables
decreases out capacity dramatically. Every stand, table and chair costs us space and we have to justify it to all the people who WONT be able to get into the convention because we ran out of room. Sometimes doing what's right isnt always what we want.

But the idea of moving things and creating more oppourtunities for sellers is certainly an option I can understand, and something I'm sure thats being mulled by our Deallers hall people (or will be when we get some).

~Allykat

[Hazuza]

I understand The whole place last year was extremely crowded, so I can see how it might be a problem...

However, IIRC I remember there being a few tables lined up along the halls, aside from those for reg and the info booth(s), that were for the most part unused. What were those for, might I ask? o-o

[Serika]

Hey, just want to pitch in with issues I've seen and all that.  I'm not sure if staff is still reading this so far in, but I hope so! 

A. Location in general - I absolutely loved the location we were in itself.  I never felt endangered in any way.  Things seemed safe.  I didn't stay downtown because I live in a suburb about 20 minutes out of downtown Portland, but transportation wasn't any more difficult than it normally was.  Walking around was easy.  Going to get food and going out to eat and all that was easy.  Other than the mall, there were a lot of options for food and restaurants and hang outs.  I was even able to organize a private party with some other cosplayers at a REAL RESTAURANT!!! in which we were loud and honestly a little obnoxious, and as far as I could tell the staff didn't have a problem with us, they were incredibly nice... It was a few blocks away from the hotel (in a slightly trashier locale, though certainly not...82nd), and while we were in a group of around 8 people (only two guys!!) I'm not sensing the danger and hostility some of you have expressed.  When people commented on us, we talked to them if they seemed kind.  If they were creepy or weird, we ignored them and continued on.  And that's how you avoid creeps. 
In general, I love Portland.  I feel like we should keep the con in the Portland area. 

B. Photoshoot locations - Guys, the waterfront is like, two or three blocks away.  Sure, there's no park, but how authentic is a park (full of cosplayers and bums, i might add) as a backdrop for photoshoots?  But anyways, the waterfront had a lovely plaza, fountain, the river itself, a dock full of boats, classier, more "elegant" restaurant areas, and a tonnnn of other locations.  There really were a handful of options, it just took a little research in advance. 

C. The hotel - Yeah, there were a lot of issues.  Not much more to add here that hasn't already been touched on.  I guess the biggest issues for me were elevators, crowding, and just general confusion about what to do and where to go at times.  Info desk was helpful in the times I talked to them.  I wasn't a fan, and if we had a choice I wouldn't recommend this venue again, but for another year I can stick it out for my favorite convention. <3 Escalators weren't an issue for me once we were able to treat them as stairs, though that does bring up the point of the stairs themselves... Um, I couldn't really find them, haha.  I mean, I did eventually, but it was still confusing and YES, more signs would be nice.  I just kind of had to feel around and open every door until things turned out right.  It was also kind of difficult to keep track of what floor we were on while in there.  The faded numbers were difficult to see and this is more of a hotel issue than a con issue; some kind of extra coat of paint on the doors(or wherever the numbers were) would be fantastic. 

D. Hotel staff - Got yelled at a couple times, like everyone else.  Not too bad, though... It definitely wasn't ideal, but being told I had to go in a total U-turn to get to the same lobby ten feet away the way I was going was a little weird.  I know it's frustrating for staff to explain their, um, reasoning again and again but if we could just get an explanation for WHY what we're doing is wrong (even a sign would suffice!) then I think it'll help us understand why this way is right, that way is wrong.  If this makes sense.  I can clarify if necessary. 

E. Artist Alley.  I sold in the artist alley.  Artist alley was cut off in a dead end.  I was in the dead end.  At least half of the people coming by my booth just got frustrated upon seeing my boothmate's handmade signs reading "NOT AN EXIT" and exasperatedly stormed off in an attempt to figure out where to go. 
First of all, WHY WAS THERE A DEAD END?  That was just an awful set up.  The AA coordinator (I'm so sorry, I'm terrible with names and can't remember hers... I'm sorry!!!) was INCREDIBLY WONDERFUL AND HELPFUL AND KIND.  She made the whole experience a little bit better, but really, why was there a dead end?  And I hate to be a little... rude here, but WHY were the two booths at the entrance two of the most popular artists that frequently sell in the AA(Neolucky, as well as Kim Madison's custom sculptures)?  I realize this may not have been intentional, but if we absolutely needed a dead end, could at least one of them be thrown into the back end, to encourage traffic to circle throughout the WHOLE AA rather than reaching their destination and just turning around?  I do feel like I missed our on a lot of the customers I could have had, which is disappointing considering I did pay money for supplies, stock, registration and the booth itself. 
We absolutely need to have a circle going, with two or more ways to get into the AA section, rather than just a cut-off. 
Another issue was entering the exhibitors hall/AA space altogether.  Originally that garage door was opened, and then suddenly closed up, and I never really understood why.  Was it because of the line or whatever? (If so, I have some suggestions, though I'm not sure if they're realistic since I don't really know the inner workings of the Hilton.) I wish it had been kept this way, rather than being opened up onto the street like it was eventually changed to.  I know this encouraged more flow for the people who knew of the exhibitors area...  However, at the same time, I've heard a lot of people weren't even aware there was an exhibitors area.  Period. 
On the other hand, I did really appreciate having an electrical outlet, and again, the AA coordinator.  She was soooo helpful and while it was clear she was stressed towards the last couple weeks leading up to the con, once we were actually there in person she was fabulous.  I could not possibly have asked for more from her.  Having an outlet was great because I got to have a fan running the whole time, and my computer hooked up for visual references for commissions. 

...um, yeah, I'm not really sure how to wrap this up.  I hope that this is at least read and considered, and I'm more than happy to offer suggestions if you need them regarding anything I've mentioned! 

[murder_of_raven]

...um, yeah, I'm not really sure how to wrap this up.  I hope that this is at least read and considered, and I'm more than happy to offer suggestions if you need them regarding anything I've mentioned!  

*Ahem* I don't mean to be like this but... did you c+p an old post you made? Because I swear I've read this post in its entirety and even replied to segments of it. And we had the extensive discussion on why there was a dead-end in Artist Alley? I'm feeling a little bit crazy to be honest; I did a search with the forum's built in search function and it didn't pull anything up so now I really am wondering...

Edit: What started as casual criticism has turned into genuine bewilderment. Does anybody remember this or a /very/ similar post in the.... Oooooh! I understand what happened now! You must've posted this in the 2009 Criticism thread which was then not archived... Well, if that's the case I can understand the direct c+p but I think it would've been nice of you to revise it based on some of the many many replies you got. I also think deleting that thread was a bad move on whoever made it; from a detractor's PoV it looks like you are hiding criticism and from someone like me who just doesn't want a repeat of the mistakes made last year it prevents easy access to what I considered an almost encyclopedic collection of suggestions (if I remember correctly it was thousands of posts long and discussed a huge number of issues).

[Serika]

...Um, I just typed that up last night, thanks.  I may have posted a similar critique-type thing awhile ago, but I would have remembered an "extensive discussion." Don't just assume I copy and pasted and how horrible of me (because people HAVE been saying similar things for awhile, just read this entire thread for that.  Not to mention I reference previous posts in this specific topic in my post), I just wanted to make sure that this far in the game people still remembered some of the issues, and offering YES, here's yet another person's comments about their con experience. 

And regarding the AA in particular, I've *heard* there have been discussions, but I have not actually *seen* them. (As in, Kim told me she and the AA coordinator had talked about some of the issues briefly and "something was being done.") Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place, but if you're referencing some huge long discussion that I was apparently a part of, can you please link me in some way?  Or is this the deleted topic (that, again, I have no recollection of making a giant post in)? 

[JeffT]

I also think deleting that thread was a bad move on whoever made it; from a detractor's PoV it looks like you are hiding criticism and from someone like me who just doesn't want a repeat of the mistakes made last year it prevents easy access to what I considered an almost encyclopedic collection of suggestions (if I remember correctly it was thousands of posts long and discussed a huge number of issues).

To my knowledge, no significant thread containing 2009 feedback or criticism was deleted--and I just checked the moderators' private area of deleted threads going back to August 2009 to make sure. If you can offer specifics of what you think was deleted I can investigate further, but it's very unlikely that this occurred. Remember, you can review all of your, or another member's, posts from the link in your or their profile (those posts which are not in deleted threads).

There is an off chance it was accidentally moved to a different forum area in one of the recent re-orgs, but it would still be in a publicly searchable area, so if you search on keywords of members' posts it would be found.

[murder_of_raven]

...Um, I just typed that up last night, thanks.  I may have posted a similar critique-type thing awhile ago, but I would have remembered an "extensive discussion." Don't just assume I copy and pasted and how horrible of me (because people HAVE been saying similar things for awhile, just read this entire thread for that.  Not to mention I reference previous posts in this specific topic in my post), I just wanted to make sure that this far in the game people still remembered some of the issues, and offering YES, here's yet another person's comments about their con experience.  

Oh dear, you really misinterpreted me. That was not meant to be an attack, I simply got a serious albeit apparently unwarranted sense of deja vu. Weird though because I checked myself by saying aloud what you were going to say next and each time I was more or less right... >.>

And yes JeffT, you are right, it was simply renamed and I was referring to this thread: http://www.kumoricon.org/forums/index.php?topic=11118.0. And I've searched all through the forum and I really can't find anything... I don't know people, just ignore me I guess XP

[The_Panda]

2. I know that the location is just right across the river, but I (and other Eugenians) really would prefer it stay in Portland. If we can go to the convention hall, awesome. If we stay at the Hilton, fine. If we go back to the Doubletree, even better. (I loved that park so much.) But if it is at all possible to keep it in portland, the better. Maybe not to say that we won't come to Kumoricon should that happen, but it will certainly make it harder.

What location? I am confused? What are we talking about here? If you are referring to anything in Vancouver,
exactly what makes the 8 mile difference so much of a hindrance? I'm not upset, just confused. I don't want
to miss an obvious issue with a Vancouver hotel option, if we put Vancouver hotels on the table as an option.

On the subject of dances vs bands; I think this issue has, for the most part been resolved. There isnt going to be
anything we can do about the curfew, but most likely their should be a way for dancing to happen for those
loverly kids and minors who can't stay about the con after late! More details to follow from prog eventually.

We luuurve input. I just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of the suggestions to make future conventions
better. However;

Lets remember this thread was for the 2010 year, not future years. We cannot do anything about hotel stuff
this year. We are at the Downtown Hilton for the 2010 con year, no ifs ands or buts.

~Allykat

ARGH ARGH ARGH. Let me explain my clear confusion (and lack of research). I thought that it was some 40 miles due north of portland. I, (with my NON-RESEARCH SKILLS) totally did not get that it was RIGHT over the river. Got it. Infinitely better.

So, I'm curious about something regarding the curfew and dances, then.
Year before last, ('08) the dances were allowed to go until 1 with minors. Then they got kicked out, told to go to bed, the like. But what was the dramatic change from 1 'o clock to midnight curfew? Does the hotel itself have a curfew?

[Animeman73]

I have a suggestion for you Kumoricon staff members. Do you think you could make a large print copy of the pocket schedule for the visually impaired?

[JeffT]

I have a suggestion for you Kumoricon staff members. Do you think you could make a large prinbt copy of the pocket schedule for the visually impaired?

Keep in mind we do create an online copy, which can be used with whatever tools you need. Last year's is still up:

http://www.kumoricon.org/schedule/

[AllyKat]

So, I'm curious about something regarding the curfew and dances, then.
Year before last, ('08) the dances were allowed to go until 1 with minors. Then they got kicked out, told to go to bed, the like. But what was the dramatic change from 1 'o clock to midnight curfew? Does the hotel itself have a curfew?

I suppose I should actually answer this (again ) But basically; I have to ask people not to use previous years as an example of law. This is called Ad Tradizone or an Appeal to Tradition, a fallacy stating that since something has "always been done" it is therefore right or correct. Previous years may not have taken into account Portland regulations regarding curfew which state;

                                  School Night    Non-School Night
PORTLAND & UNDER 14    9:15PM-6AM      10:15PM- 6AM
PORTLAND & 14-17        10:15PM-6AM      Midnight- 6AM

available for verification here - http://www.co.multnomah.or.us/dcj/jcjcurfew.shtml

I'd like to point out that these rules are more strict than the convention rules in regards to youth under the
age of 14. This is why; since we require 12 and under to be accompanied by a parent at all times, there curfew
is at best limited to their discourse by law. A police officer cannot cite a child who is in the protection of a parent
unless the child is being unlawful in a way that is disruptive or detrimental to the public peace. We extend at the time
our midnight curfew to all attendees, with the stipulation that as always, a parent is with all attendees under the age of 13.

It should be noted that as of May 2007 Vancouver, WA has NO Curfew for juveniles, and upon research of Washington Law, has not enacted any such curfew. The state if Washington itself leaves this up to the jurisdiction of each city.

verified here - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=35.21.635

WHAT THIS MEANS: While portland has a curfew, and we abide by it, Vancouver does not. That said, we still
have rules and policies within our own convention and as such, for liability and safety of our patrons we retain the right to enact a curfew on all guests under the age of 18. City laws are a ceiling to our policies, but within that we may decide on further procautions.

If you ever have any question regarding curfew or how it is enforced; or why you may never notice the curfew laws in portland, please PM me your questions, as law and enforcement are two entirely different entities.

[JeffT]

WHAT THIS MEANS: While portland has a curfew, and we abide by it, Vancouver does not. That said, we still
have rules and policies within our own convention and as such, for liability and safety of our patrons we retain the right to enact a curfew on all guests under the age of 18. City laws are a ceiling to our policies, but within that we may decide on further procautions.

My understanding is that as Kumoricon is on private property, we are actually under no legal requirement at all to match Portland's curfew. Although the convention policies last year did state a curfew of 12:00midnight to 6:00am, that was simply a decision of Kumoricon, and not a legal requirement. Is that incorrect?

[AllyKat]

You are half right Jeff. Private property partially protects us from curfew laws. However, its not as solid ground here in Oregon as it might be in states with less legislation on the issue.

Theoretically, because the Hotel is a Business, not a residence, it has to adhere to the laws of all municipalities in which it resides. Much like how a minor cannot run around a Pancake house at 2am and a cop have no power over it, if a Police officer so saw fit, they could reprimand a minor for breaking curfew within the convention space.

Here is where it gets tricky;

Convention space is not public domain. You have to either be an officer of the law, convention/hotel staff or an attendee to enter. It could be categorized as a "residence type" area where common law comes into play (As in dont make problems and we will not have problems). The issue here is that the moment the police are called for any incident, if it turns out regulations were not followed (IE someone gets hurt or taken and they were a minor who was allowed to remain in convention space after curfew) it becomes a crime on the part of Kumoricon who allowed the infraction to occur. The extent of the violation and retribution is, of course dependent on the judiciary finding but none-the-less a black eye on the convention itself.

As we know from other legislation (masks and decency regulations) on the street level things get complicated...

To be honest, following the Portland regulations on curfew is like looking both ways before crossing the street; it's just smarter and safer. Most of the time, it's not going to affect us if we dont, but there is that 1% chance that it might come back to bite us in the butt, I'd like to think we are smarter than allowing a thing like Minor curfew regulations to hurt our event.

In short; We are ALWAYS under legal requirement to match City Regulations; where the brightline is remains very ambigous because no one at the city level is going to come in and start checking IDs. But
liability is the big heavy dirty word in regulation and enforcement, and its better to be safe then sued.

[JeffT]

Actually, that does not appear to be what the law states. It seems the hotel being private property, is not subject to curfew laws, even though some areas may be accessible to the public (not just convention attendees).

From Portland law:

http://www.portlandonline.com/auditor/index.cfm?c=28516&a=15453

"A. It is unlawful for any minor to be in or upon any public property or public right of way between the hours specified in this Section, unless such minor is accompanied by a parent, guardian or other person 21 years of age or over and authorized by the parent or by the law to have care and custody of the minor, or unless such minor is then engaged in a school activity or lawful employment that makes it necessary to be in or upon any city property or public right of way during the hours specified in this Section. For minors under the age of 14 years who have not begun high school, curfew is between 9:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, the curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning. For children 14 years of age or older who have begun high school, curfew is between 10:15 p.m. and 6 a.m. of the following morning, except that on any day immediately preceding a day for which no public school is scheduled in the City, curfew is between 12 midnight and 6 a.m. of the following morning."

(emphasis added)

Portland law has definitions for the above two bolded terms:

http://www.portlandonline.com/auditor/index.cfm?c=28509&a=15381

"P. Public Property: any property including but not limited to parks, rights of way, easements, buildings, or other land or physical structures owned or managed by the City or other governmental agency.

Q. Public Right of Way: any thoroughfare or area intended, designed, or used for vehicular or pedestrian traffic."

In particular, there is a definition for "public place" in the law (same page as above), which would include areas of a hotel that are not guest rooms (or perhaps meeting rooms) that are open to the public. But that is not referenced by the curfew law.

To me, it is clear cut, that the curfew law does not apply on the hotel.

In short; We are ALWAYS under legal requirement to match City Regulations; where the brightline is remains very ambigous because no one at the city level is going to come in and start checking IDs

We do not have the right to say "the law does not apply in here" but the law itself says it only applies on public property and public rights of way. So it is not us circumventing the law; rather, the law simply does not apply. Furthermore, it is not ambiguous.

It is true that there is always a low chance of some unforeseen liability but that applies to just about any domain in which the convention participates. It doesn't change the fact that the law is clear on the matter here.

There may be other reasons the convention decides it's a good idea to match Portland's curfew. For example, maybe we don't want to encourage minors to stay such that suddenly, they are not legally allowed to leave the convention space without a parent.

[AllyKat]

EDIT: I conceed to Jeff's knowledge on Portland City Law, the auditor's office is in place for a reason; to protect the citizens from the enforcement offices and their liberties with law. I just feel that one of the main reasons why we have a curfew in place is for liability when it comes to legal precident and action. I may in fact be wrong, but it makes more sense then; "because we said so."


Like I said, it only get tricky when bad things start happening, or lets say a minor isn't staying at the hotel and needs to walk home or go to a different hotel? Once they leave convention space they become applicable to the law.

This is why I would have prefered to discuss this with anyone who is interested via PM. There is a difference between enforcement and LAW. The actual legislation is clear; but its enforcement is subject
to interpretation. Several sources not counting the City Auditors office (who does not represent the judicial body I might add) have conflicting information regarding the regulations connected to laws that involve minors. For instance; in multnomah county, the worst you can do is detain and return to parent or guardian. However, some sources I found claim that after 3 infractions you can be required to take a parenting class or your child may be elligible for juvinile hall. That seems odd to me and I can't find that information explicitly stated in the actual regulations.

Once again, it's about the law and the enforcement and the source. When you get right down to it, what side do you want to be on? The side thats fighting semantics, or the side safely in the right? I don't proffess to know everything about Portland city law, but I do know that a law doesn't have to be written a certain way for someone to get caught on the wrong side of it.

[JeffT]

You're right in that it's probably a good idea for a variety of reasons for the con to have the curfew, including for it to match Portland's curfew. However I just wanted to clarify the applicability because I feel it's important to understand whose authority is whose. We aren't enforcing Portland's curfew, we are mirroring it and extending it to our own event by our own decision.

[AllyKat]

You are right, thats a good distinction to make.

Of course, how many people are going to bother to sift through the muck that is our law books and
understand the differences in jurisdiction and brink of a law... is probably less than one might like.

Though you never know, anime fans tend to enjoy stuff like debate and parlimentary commentary.

[JeffT]

You are right, thats a good distinction to make.

Of course, how many people are going to bother to sift through the muck that is our law books and
understand the differences in jurisdiction and brink of a law... is probably less than one might like.

Though you never know, anime fans tend to enjoy stuff like debate and parlimentary commentary.

Well, people are expected to obey the law, whether they actually know it or not... and attendees are expected to obey our policies... so I figure it's a good idea to make them both as clear as possible if the discussion arises.

[ArienDrakon]

Ok first let me say a thanks to all the Kumoricon staff as they did excellent with what they had to work with. Having been staff at things before I know how it is to be stuck between various rules, regulations, fun, attendees, owners, other staff and all that jazz.

However I did want to present some thoughts and concerns I had about last year. And yes I read the previous pages.

My first concern is with the lobby and hallways. I know fire regulations prohibit blocking exits and entrances. Also I understand keeping walkways clear so it’s not one big human wall. However in areas like the lobby or a huge hallway I really enjoy just hanging out and talking to people. However on several occasions we were told by hotel staff and kumo staff that we had to keep moving. We weren’t allowed to sit on the carpet in the lobby or stand next to seats. Only people who had seats were allowed to remain. For the rest of us we were basically pushed outside in the rain, even those of us who were hotel guests. We never had this problem at any of the hotels in the past 4-5 years. What little there was, was never to the extent that it was at the Hilton.

My second concern is the hotel staff blocking of entire floors, via escalators, saying that there is only one event down there and it’s full. So they didn’t let us move down to the floor even if there actually was another event about to start or even just to look around to familiarize myself with the layout of the place.

Thirdly is the masks. Now I know that masks have been an issue with past hotels, but usually by the second day they lighten up and are ok with them. I was told during all three days at the Hilton though that my mask was not to be worn. I being Jack Skellington need my mask to complete the costume, but I was told that I could never have it on except for a quick photo. It’s really frustrating, especially since that is one of fulcrums for a con is the ability to dress up.

My last thought, that has been talked about a bit in previous pages, is getting organized with age limits at events. Several events I attended that was, according to some material, adult only, ended up being any age. This confusion caused various costumed events with some people dressing up and behaving in adult manor not knowing that it had been changed to a kid friendly event. One confrontation with one of my friends at one of these events had an accusing tone to the attire. They ended up crying and left feeling humiliated. There was sympathy and comfort offered, but it didn’t change the initial reaction of ‘you know this is a kids event so you are blatantly breaking the rules’ tone that was taken. (Note: all the other events I attended were very amusing and well organized. So great job on them in my opinion)

I know not everyone experienced all these things, but a lot of my friends did. Again let me say that the Kumo staff is awesome, and I don’t doubt the resolve of the hotel managers to help keep us happy. That said though it was really frustrating and on more that one occasion I left the hotel for just wandering around the city, just out of frustration. I know it will be better this year (insert faith in you guys here!), but if I knew what it would have been like last year before I went I never would have attended.

Sorry for the long post and please don’t think I’m trying to pick on you guys cause you guys rule! It’s just a couple wrinkles that if straightened out would make con epic again!

[kai-chan]

I want to post my concerns about last year *** NOTE IM TOO LAZY TO READ ALL 10 PAGES****



overcapacity rule.
     What is the legal capacity for the hotel? we had thousands of people there but the hotel kept on interrupting our events in rooms cuz we had too many people in one room. I was in the the Hentai panel. That had only one viewing during the whole con and had about 100 people * that i saw for myself* who wanted to go. but the hotel staff wouldn't let people stand to watch the event, and there was only 30 chairs. before the hotel staff came in there was about 50 people in the room 30 in chairs 20 standing in the back. the hotel kicked them all out!!! saying its a fire hazard and then 50 more people tried to get in but was turned away. I personally didnt think it would be that bad because one it was curfew time for the younger people (less threw traffic). Also it was in the hotel part that had hardly anyone in it. and that wasnt the only thing they interrupted. they took away the ramen for the ramen eating contest, and the food for the host club also was taken. Overall the Hotel staff were not con friendly at all. We should have told them if you can supply us the same product for teh same price FINE!! serve us your ramen for the contest for free , or the food in the events for the same price. Also we couldn't do congo lines during the dance!! that was a fire hazord!! its not like if there was a fire the people wouldnt have broken it up and ran for the doors. -----huff--huff--- glad that got out of me ^_-

I went to the rant and rave after the con and everyone was mad at the hotel. There was a movement going on!!! so many people had a bad experience because of the hotel. I cant wait for us to be in a different location.

there should be more hentai panels offered. somany people got turned away

[Animeman73]

Jeff T, let me say for the record i was pleased to hear that Jaz is returning as V.I.P. coordinator. After the splendid job she did last year this is definitely going to help make the V.I.P. experience better. Kudos to you and Kudos to Jaz.

[AllyKat]

I want to post my concerns about last year *** NOTE IM TOO LAZY TO READ ALL 10 PAGES****



overcapacity rule.
     What is the legal capacity for the hotel? we had thousands of people there but the hotel kept on interrupting our events in rooms cuz we had too many people in one room. I was in the the Hentai panel. That had only one viewing during the whole con and had about 100 people * that i saw for myself* who wanted to go. but the hotel staff wouldn't let people stand to watch the event, and there was only 30 chairs. before the hotel staff came in there was about 50 people in the room 30 in chairs 20 standing in the back. the hotel kicked them all out!!! saying its a fire hazard and then 50 more people tried to get in but was turned away. I personally didnt think it would be that bad because one it was curfew time for the younger people (less threw traffic). Also it was in the hotel part that had hardly anyone in it. and that wasnt the only thing they interrupted. they took away the ramen for the ramen eating contest, and the food for the host club also was taken. Overall the Hotel staff were not con friendly at all. We should have told them if you can supply us the same product for teh same price FINE!! serve us your ramen for the contest for free , or the food in the events for the same price. Also we couldn't do congo lines during the dance!! that was a fire hazord!! its not like if there was a fire the people wouldnt have broken it up and ran for the doors. -----huff--huff--- glad that got out of me ^_-

I went to the rant and rave after the con and everyone was mad at the hotel. There was a movement going on!!! so many people had a bad experience because of the hotel. I cant wait for us to be in a different location.

there should be more hentai panels offered. somany people got turned away

I want to address your concerns because I think it speaks to a lot of peoples knowledge of how hotels run.

Remember those bottles of water they put in hotel rooms? Or the "mini bar" they talk about in movies? Remember how its like $3 for a bottle of water or $12 for a premixed mini-cocktail?
Take all that overpricing and multiply it at least by 3 and you get the overpricing that goes on for in house catering, and every other little thing (even electricity) you use at the hotel. Hold on to this information, because you'll need it later in my answer.

CAPACITY: Every room has a super secret special number that exists in the ethereal wonder somewhere that will come down on us like a ban-hammer of epic death if we exceed it. Fire marshal's are all powerful and exist to protect the safety and worst case scenario mortality of an event space. Basically this means that even if there are only 5 other people in the hotel, you can't fit 50 people in a room that only safely holds 30. And just because we think we could fit a few more chairs, does not make us right. Fire Marshals have final say.
Here's where that becomes a problem; Hotel tells us that x room can fit y people in it with z setup. We bring in y people to x room after setting it up in z style. The fire marshal comes in and says we can only have q people in the room and also gives us a warning if we keep breaking fire code, we could get shut down. We become nervous because the numbers we were given for x room no longer apply, which means that the numbers for all the other rooms could also be in correct. Suddenly having more than 4,000 people in the event space is impossible, and the con is 1 day in and more people are coming into reg.
Its a night mare, but it happened. Now my job is to preempt the horror of "You can't have that many people in this room!"

FOOD PANELS: No matter what, this is something that absolutely has to go through the director of programming. You cannot have food in a panel unless you go through her. Even if you just plan some little quick contests. When in doubt, ask the director or your panel's coordinator who answers to the Director of Programming. Why? Because what you do in those panels reflects our business relationship with the hotel. When we allow a panel to go off in a hotel room run by a fan, we are counting on you to represent Kumoricon in the best way possible.
If sneaking past rules by not telling us about food you plan to have in the panel occurs and the hotel or we find out, the Hotel comes to use with the infraction, and it goes on our record with them. While this may not seem like a big deal with a hotel that many believe did us wrong more time than not, we do NOT need that kind of bad publicity.
When in doubt, ask the Director of Programming. If you think your panel MIGHT involve something that may need clearance, ASK! do not ever ever ever hide it and think you will "get away" with doing it at the convention.
I think a ramen or Japanese noodle eating contest could be fun! But only if done through the proper channels, and that includes running it through Programming so THEY can get the proper tools, clearance and food items that will make your event a success. IF however, the director or the programming staff cannot get approval on food, or cannot find the funds to make it a reality, you have to respect that, there are a ton of panels that want to occur every year, and not all of them get in, so not all of them are going to get everything they want.
Trust me, the worst thing anyone could possibly do is try and do a food panel without permission.
On that same subject, food in panels will ALWAYS cost money, no way around it. And they wont offer it to us free because THEY are doing us a service by allowing us to even have food in one of their rooms. Think about it, they are a business, and they could either not allow us to do something, or charge us a good deal of money to do it. Thats the perfect model, whether we like it or not is irrelevant, EVERY hotel will run that way, in accordance with the industry.

HENTAI PANEL/MORE PANELS: Wouldn't that be neat! I agree, there should be more panels, but there should also be more space, and we don't have it. There is a sparkly magic algorithm I'm sure that spits out the amount of panels and types we can have at any given time, including how many staffers we have late at night and the like.  My job is to find Jaki (or the Programming Directors of Christmas future) more space, so she in turn can approve more panels...

But EVERYONE who loves K-con has a job to do; Find more staff!
We really need way more staff to run as fantastically streamline as I know we want to be, it just takes more hands and we can really get a lot moving! With so many over worked staff, we really are running a miracle with a skeleton crew! So thank and love the staff around you, and go find them help! ^_^

A lot of this is mostly just my personal observation, when you have questions, ask the Director or staffer in charge of that specific section of the convention for more specific clarification, we are always willing to help people become more informed! Knowledge is power!

And thanks guys for understanding all the hard work everyone did last year, we appreciate it and I'm sure everyone appreciates the support for this year!

[ArienDrakon]

Hey I might not have been clear. For that I apologize, but I was wondering if I could get some feedback on my concerns from the previous page.

[pyronine]

A little note about ally, we joined on the same day, last year at con. She has done a tremendous job as Facilities Liaison. That is a board memeber position, not just regular staff, she jumped into the position and has made tremendous leaps and bounds. Board members have a lot more duties throughout the year than most, it can be considered a second job.

And she is right FIND MORE STAFF!!! I couldnt believe how con was run by so few staff members.

So please If you want to make con better, try helping out, we did.

[AllyKat]

Sorry ArienDrakon, Lets see what I can comment on.... And for future reference, even if I don't reply to something someone posts, that doesn't mean I didn't read it. Either I assumed I had already commented on the subject or I don't have anything new to add. I don't hate chya! Just not always chatty!

Ok first let me say a thanks to all the Kumoricon staff as they did excellent with what they had to work with. Having been staff at things before I know how it is to be stuck between various rules, regulations, fun, attendees, owners, other staff and all that jazz.

You have no idea (well maybe a little bit of an idea) how much this means to staffers! They do everything they do for free, often times working sleepless nights or tirelessly for the simple joy of being able to say "I helped". The fact that people appreciate the work they do... makes it worth coming back each year, and we need Staff Retention, so those comments are a big help!

However I did want to present some thoughts and concerns I had about last year. And yes I read the previous pages.

My first concern is with the lobby and hallways. I know fire regulations prohibit blocking exits and entrances. Also I understand keeping walkways clear so it’s not one big human wall. However in areas like the lobby or a huge hallway I really enjoy just hanging out and talking to people. However on several occasions we were told by hotel staff and kumo staff that we had to keep moving. We weren’t allowed to sit on the carpet in the lobby or stand next to seats. Only people who had seats were allowed to remain. For the rest of us we were basically pushed outside in the rain, even those of us who were hotel guests. We never had this problem at any of the hotels in the past 4-5 years. What little there was, was never to the extent that it was at the Hilton.

Without sounding like a repeat of exactly what you just said; Fire regulations prohibit a MILLION and one things, safety codes and the fact that we are GUESTS in the hotel, not owners of it make it hard to fight those rules. Think about it this way; even if I were paying full price for the whole hotel, and the convention space, that doesn't give me the right to bring a bunch of people into the lobby and sit on the floor and hang around, essentially loitering does it? Unfortunately for our lovely group, it does not. We have to treat the hotel as it is meant to be treated, which means sitting, where sitting is allowed (chairs) and moving along in traffic ways. I realize this isn't easy, and I realize that that person dressed up as Riku has been sitting in the red chairs for 4 hours and she and her friends will NOT move and let other people sit down... but I don't control them, they have free will to be jerks, as long as they aren't sitting on the floor or blocking traffic in the hall way.

That may indeed suck, but every single hotel is gonna have that rule. Especially nicer ones with the amount of space and facilities we require. We are a very unique group. That gives us some leeway... but it doesn't do much for our ability to have an Anime Sit-in. I am sorry about that, I wish I could change that, but Until a good, safe, secure and legal way to make a public lobby a hangout appears, we just have to play by the rules.

My second concern is the hotel staff blocking of entire floors, via escalators, saying that there is only one event down there and it’s full. So they didn’t let us move down to the floor even if there actually was another event about to start or even just to look around to familiarize myself with the layout of the place.

This coincides with the ever present fire codes. And all I can say is, there are new things going into function that should prevent SOME of the pile ups. Can't guarantee it'll all magically go away, but thats the way the hotel is laid out, and we can't change that. Certain areas HAD to be closed off because the fire marshal outright said if we put any one else in an area we'd break fire code AGAIN (believe it or not we were having issues with this all weekend, and we did NOT need to get into a bad tiff with the city of Portland and the fire marshals. I realize that if an event should be starting and you can't get to wear it is is frustrating, but please be patient, we will try and work it out as best as possible. 

Thirdly is the masks. Now I know that masks have been an issue with past hotels, but usually by the second day they lighten up and are ok with them. I was told during all three days at the Hilton though that my mask was not to be worn. I being Jack Skellington need my mask to complete the costume, but I was told that I could never have it on except for a quick photo. It’s really frustrating, especially since that is one of fulcrums for a con is the ability to dress up.

I apologize that this situation made it difficult for you. It's never fun to be the one at the party screwed by the rules. But you are right, this is a issue at EVERY hotel. In fact, most hotels have a much more strict mask policy than any attendee will ever see because we put a lot of time into coaxing as much freedom out of them as possible.
A lot of things with masks were communication errors. And for that I'm sure you understand, we are sympathetic. While I know most of the staff was doing their best to continue to uphold the rules, things changed a lot mid convention, information was brought to light that changed things, and rules that hadn't been common knowledge were suddenly being forced on everyone. It makes it hard, and everyone has a right to be stressed about it. While I can't change the past, rest assured I will make the Costume Policy as clear and specific as possible and I will be informing the hotel and every staffer that will be working with us and you of the policies that affect them and you. Thats the best I can offer anyone.

My last thought, that has been talked about a bit in previous pages, is getting organized with age limits at events. Several events I attended that was, according to some material, adult only, ended up being any age. This confusion caused various costumed events with some people dressing up and behaving in adult manor not knowing that it had been changed to a kid friendly event. One confrontation with one of my friends at one of these events had an accusing tone to the attire. They ended up crying and left feeling humiliated. There was sympathy and comfort offered, but it didn’t change the initial reaction of ‘you know this is a kids event so you are blatantly breaking the rules’ tone that was taken. (Note: all the other events I attended were very amusing and well organized. So great job on them in my opinion)

I don't... exactly understand the situation here... As far as I was ever aware (and I was a attendee at the convention for 2009 so while I went to a lot of events, I by no means went to them all) All the adult panels I went to were adult, and all the all ages were all ages. I have found, however, that people were listening to people about certain things with second hand "he said, she said" telephone  style communications. Nothing about programming is easy... but events that are being run by the convention are pretty safe bets... however, there are these wonderful panels and things that Attendees ask to run... and... while we try to give them every ounce of help and support we can, we have to trust our panelists to go by what they have given us, or someone to tell us if things go wrong.

An adult panel rating (by this I think you mean 18+) will ALWAYS require some kind of ID/Ident checking at the door. If this is not done, consider the panel a PG event... ALWAYS. If we don't check ID then there is a chance, A VERY GOOD CHANCE, a kid could wander in and see or hear things they are not permitted to hear. That, is a big legal problem. If what I am hearing from you is true then there should have been clear signals that something was off about the audience or the make up of the panel. Regardless, I feel for your friend who clearly sounds like they were not trying to cause a scene, but ended up in the middle of a difficult situation. It can only be, for me... a reminder to be vigilant and to remind EVERYONE that you can NEVER be too careful, even in a 18+ panel room, always assume that there is the potential for a child to be watching unless you entered the room after being IDed. That is your only assurance, and your only safety net, other wise, assume all bets are on. I'd live by that at any convention.

[/quote]
I know not everyone experienced all these things, but a lot of my friends did. Again let me say that the Kumo staff is awesome, and I don’t doubt the resolve of the hotel managers to help keep us happy. That said though it was really frustrating and on more that one occasion I left the hotel for just wandering around the city, just out of frustration. I know it will be better this year (insert faith in you guys here!), but if I knew what it would have been like last year before I went I never would have attended.

Sorry for the long post and please don’t think I’m trying to pick on you guys cause you guys rule! It’s just a couple wrinkles that if straightened out would make con epic again!

[/quote]

I for one appreciate your comments. They keep me on my game and in my thinking cap... I need to remain fresh to the problems of the past year to ensure they are not repeated.

Hope my answers helped you some... at least for peace of mind...

Oh, and by the way Pyro... thanks for the love! You rock too! If it wasn't for you and Brandon standing outside that first meeting, being so friendly and positive to me, I'm might have never had the courage to really get involved... thanks a million!

[snowshoedtiger]

Excuse my ignorance but, what is signage?

[AllyKat]

Excuse my ignorance but, what is signage?

The signs we put up in the hotel directing you to things/people/events/points of interest

ie;  Sign next to elevator which reads: "ELEVATOR THIS WAY ->"

[snowshoedtiger]

Excuse my ignorance but, what is signage?

The signs we put up in the hotel directing you to things/people/events/points of interest

ie;  Sign next to elevator which reads: "ELEVATOR THIS WAY ->"

Oh! Ok, thank you.

[KHking]

I have two suggestions:
1) Let us wear masks.
2) Nicer hotel staffers. They were kind of jerks.

[Midnight Divine]

I agree with KHking, the mask rule really ruined Kumoricon 2009 for me because I went as Rorschach and my mask cost me a lot of money, as soon as I walked in they made me take it off. I was very bummed out. I heard it won't change this year, but it's a con!, so many people go there to have fun and most people spend a lot of money on there masks just to know you can only wear it in the ballroom area and some of the events. It should be allowed everywhere!

[LexManos]

Let me explain the mask thing, from my understanding (its been a year so its kinda fuzzy)
But the Con itself only actually rents the ROOMs that the events/panels are being held in. And we can pretty much do whatever we want in those rooms.
However the hallways between the rooms, and the main lobby, remain hotel public access.
It is against hotel policy to wear a mask in their space.
So basically the rule became, While in rooms, Masks ok, Everywhere else, No.
This is because of the hotel, not the con.

And honestly, this only came up after they received a few complaints from the non-con hotel guests.

Also, to address the overcapacity thing, the number isn't secret. It's actually posted in every room, by law. Though, you are correct that it fluctuates based on the setup of the room. But there is actually a formula to figure it out. I'll see if I can find it in my law books.

[Midnight Divine]

That's what I thought. You can wear your masks in the ballroom area, in your room, the kumoricon events, and downstairs where you can buy things, and outside correct?. I also heard that the mask rule is also a fire hazard rule?

[LexManos]

As far as I know (its 1:30am u.u) masks have nothing to do with the fire code.
And like I said, the spaces where the con actually rents, masks were ok (or so we yoji were told).
As for outside, as far as I know, theres no law about walking around town with a mask on. Its a hotel policy that restricts it.
THOUGH the majority of all establishments also have anti-mask rules. (If you ever walk into a store, look by the doors theres usually something saying no-masks, especially if the place gets robbed a lot)

Bottom line: Either do a cosplay without a mask, or make it easily removable.
And from the talks I had with the hotel staff last year, helmets are ok, as long as the FACE is visible.
Basically Good bad

*Note: I haven't had the cash to go to the meetings this year, I am solely going on common sense and last year. My word is not law.

[Midnight Divine]

Well thank you for taking the time and informing me about these details. I'm going as Hei from Darker Than Black so my face will be covered up, but like last year, in the areas I shouldn't keep my mask on, it will be on top on my head or to the side, so that my way my face is visible. Thanx again.

[AllyKat]

On Masks:

This is a HOTEL policy, and no hotel has been more Lenient to us than the Hilton, historically.
Most of the hotels we go to have a NO MASKS whatsoever policy. This is for the comfort of
their other guests and the outside public. Why? Because people in masks apparently upset normals.
We don't have to agree with it or like it, we just have to respect it.

The hotel has been kind enough to allow us to wear our masks in the convention spaces that are
not visible to the "public" IE: any place that ISN'T the main lobby. If you are on the main lobby,
we ask you to remove your masks. Anywhere else the hotel has permitted us to wear our masks.

If this is confusing for anyone, feel free to PM me regarding the issue and I can explain what
this means. And of course, if this rule ever changes by the hotel, I will do my best to inform everyone
of the changes in a timely manner.

[KHking]

^Good. Then when I do Pyramid Head eventually, I will just carry the helmet around with me until I'm out of the lobby.
Normal people are oversensitive, btw.   

[taru678]

I hate to bring the subject of the rave again but I would just like to know something... Why do the minors have to be out by midnight...? I would just like to know because there is a under-age night club down the street called The Escape. Its for ages 15+ and they don't close until 4 a.m..I guess that i could be hotel rules..but don't the adults(18+) stay way after midnight?? And as I've said I hate to bring this up and this problem has probably been fixed or something..I was just wondering why it was like this last year? I hope I put this in the right place.

[LexManos]

Go to page 10 and read the debate over it, but to sum up. It's the law. Portland Curfew is 12am-6am for 14-17.
I *think* the loophole for the escape is that it is private property and curfew does not apply to private property. Though, closing at 4am, in the middle of curfew, sounds like a jerk thing to do.

When it comes to the con, basically, we are mimicking Portland laws. So that we and the attendees don't get in trouble.
The escape is a prime example, say there are 100 teens in there parting it up. Then it closes at 4am so they kick everyone out.
You now have 100 cases of curfew violation.

Like I said, go back to page 10 for more detailed information.

[taru678]

Well they don't kick everyone out at 4 am they make sure everyone is gone before closing but 4am is just the usual time everyone leaves. Not to mention that people hang out outside and stuff and the cops always pass by. 

[LexManos]

Still doesn't mean they aren't breaking curfew.
If the escape stays open till 6am, then they are fine.
Its the customer's choice to break curfew by leaving the club early then.
Point being, we're mimicking the law. Thats why we have curfew at midnight.
This really isn't a debate, like I said, read page 9-10 for more information.

[taru678]

Yeah...I was not trying to debate though. I was just curious as to how the escape did it and why kumoricon can't but i guess i didn't think of it like that. lol thanks for all of the help ;p

[Animeman73]

Okay folks I have something very....NICE to say. Your VIP coordinator recently sent me a questionaire on what i would and wouldn't like to see among other things. It was an excellent idea my compliments to Jasmine on such a fine idea and anyone else who helped come up with it.

[The_Panda]

So, did we figure out what we were doing about the Rave? Last I heard, we might take out the guest band, or just move everything back, time-wise.

And I believe that I saw someone say that the dances didn't matter too much. I disagree entirely. Half of my K-con is doing the rave. That is a great outlet for all the energy that is stored up during the day. Me and my friends are HUGELY disappointed that dances are just being put at second priority to minors.

I ask again, is there anything being done about including minors in the rave?

[AllyKat]

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: When Programing Schedule is up you will see what I mean.

Sorry, I'm not the correct person to answer this question, and I'm bound to answer it wrong, but I do know things have been done to make this work.

[camname21]

That's what I thought. You can wear your masks in the ballroom area, in your room, the kumoricon events, and downstairs where you can buy things, and outside correct?. I also heard that the mask rule is also a fire hazard rule?

The only thing that was not answered here was "downstairs where you can buy things."  You are not allowed to wear your mask in dealers hall, this is because of theft and being able to see people just like a regular store.