Author Topic: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)  (Read 72655 times)

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Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #150 on: September 07, 2009, 04:48:36 pm »
Hi all!  I'm curious to find out how the panel went.  I saw it on the schedule and really wanted to go (a friend and I have been wanting there to be something like this for years!), but since it was in the middle of the cosplay contest, and I had friends doing an entry, I couldn't make it.  Was it a success?  Did you have good discussions?  Was much fun had by all?

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #151 on: September 07, 2009, 05:44:06 pm »
Hi all!  I'm curious to find out how the panel went.  I saw it on the schedule and really wanted to go (a friend and I have been wanting there to be something like this for years!), but since it was in the middle of the cosplay contest, and I had friends doing an entry, I couldn't make it.  Was it a success?  Did you have good discussions?  Was much fun had by all?

As the coordinator I am extremely pleased with how it turned out. I of course cannot speak for everyone but it was really a highlight of my Kumoricon and we'll definitely be back next year, hopefully even better! =3

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #152 on: September 07, 2009, 06:47:28 pm »
I really hope I can make it next year!  What type of stuff did you guys end of discussing?  Was there a good turn out? (<--is obviously far too excited about this...)

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #153 on: September 07, 2009, 07:04:59 pm »
I really hope I can make it next year!  What type of stuff did you guys end of discussing?  Was there a good turn out? (<--is obviously far too excited about this...)

We got a little caught up on talking about series that portray queer people positively/negatively, but it was still very interesting. We also talked a little about theory, such as bisexuals in fiction, why queer people are attracted to otaku culture, and the rarity of yuri compared to yaoi.

There was a simply amazing turnout, my guess would be 50-60 people, so many that a staff member informed me I wasn't allowed to admit anybody else into the room for fire safety. I really didn't expect people to be so interested!

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2009, 07:32:08 pm »
That's awesome!  It seems like it would definitely make for a good panel.  I'm personally always a little bugged by the way gay/bi/queer characters are often portrayed in yuri and yaoi in particular.  It's also odd to find fans who think yaoi is OMG AWESONE but yuri is icky...frustrates me a bit.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #155 on: September 07, 2009, 08:15:43 pm »
That's awesome!  It seems like it would definitely make for a good panel.  I'm personally always a little bugged by the way gay/bi/queer characters are often portrayed in yuri and yaoi in particular.  It's also odd to find fans who think yaoi is OMG AWESONE but yuri is icky...frustrates me a bit.

Heehee! We did in fact discuss this for quite some time! Please come next year, I think you'd have enjoyed it.

Did you get to go to the Yuri panel? I didn't because of the AMV Iron Chef tournament, but I'd really love to hear what somebody thought about it. The yuri fandom really is just pathetically small :P

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #156 on: September 07, 2009, 09:29:38 pm »
I didn't get to make it, though later I wished I had.  I was worried it would be nothing but creepy boys, despite my high hopes and dreams, lol.  I should have at least poked my head in though!

I will really try to come next year!  I just hope it's not in the middle of the cosplay contest again, since I hope to be entering.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #157 on: September 07, 2009, 09:35:33 pm »
I didn't get to make it, though later I wished I had.  I was worried it would be nothing but creepy boys, despite my high hopes and dreams, lol.  I should have at least poked my head in though!

Hahaha yes that is indeed why I didn't go. But I hear it was double-booked with the yaoi panel and thus was awful (because they outnumbered the yuri people by a ton and were a lot louder, etc). Still, we should both try to get there next year for at least a minute, that means that there'd be at least 2 not creepy boys, yes? Also, if nobody is really into running it, I'm going to look into taking it over because I'd make sure to put a lot of effort into it...

And yes! Please do... unfortunately I can't make any promises about that. Like you I do a contest, but mine is the AMV contest and we'll have to luck out for it to not be during either.

Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #158 on: September 07, 2009, 11:58:29 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.


Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2009, 12:19:12 am »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Offline ThiefKingsHier

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #160 on: September 08, 2009, 12:18:22 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Actually, theres no disagreement here. I'm not making the generalization.  It seems to be a socially enforced stereotype that I don't agree with.

My personal philosophy is 'whatever floats your boat" but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri. I'm not even 'eww' about it.  Just 'not mah thang".

Its similar on 'this side' of things. I like yaoi but Im almost afraid to admit it because so many obnoxious people make the rest of us look bad.

Anyway, yah, thats the general idea of whatI was saying

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #161 on: September 08, 2009, 06:38:49 pm »
but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri.

Who are you hanging out with, seriously? XD Replace these people with the much larger portion of nice yuri fans I've met please.

But really, I'm surprised you have an issue (unless this is an issue of somebody who is in the hentai fandom but happens to like yuri-edged hentai, then that makes loads of sense) considering there really is not that much yuri. I mean seriously, even if some mad criminal kidnapped you and forced you to make every yuri ever made it'd take you like 2 weeks, tops. I think that Kyo Kara Mao is longer than that by itself. And sure, there's more manga than that but Japanese people have trouble finding it, let alone Americans. Whereas you can buy yaoi at their equivalent of 7/11 (I have had this verified by multiple yaoi friends who have gone to Japan XD).

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #162 on: September 08, 2009, 06:40:50 pm »
I tried to attend this as the ONLY panel I went to, and....it was full! ;o; Please schedule it for next year, and mark that we need a bigger room.  There were other people wandering around looking for it at the same time as me, so yeah, you WILL need a bigger room. 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #163 on: September 08, 2009, 07:08:18 pm »
I tried to attend this as the ONLY panel I went to, and....it was full! ;o; Please schedule it for next year, and mark that we need a bigger room.  There were other people wandering around looking for it at the same time as me, so yeah, you WILL need a bigger room. 

Oh! I wanted to see you too, you've been super involved on this forum previously :\

But yeah, I'm not a staffer or anything so I certainly have no ability to decide how much room we have... and I'm afraid I'd be an awful facilitator of 70+ people... But well, if they give us a big room I guess I'll just make do XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #164 on: September 08, 2009, 07:31:59 pm »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.

Well, I definitely invite your discussion, I just have to disagree with you. I do not assume that sexual identity necessarily has anything to do with taste in yuri/yaoi and I don't find liking one but not the other intolerant or terrible. I do think that saying that either is "eww gross, homosexuals are disgusting" is, of course. And I think you are making a huge generalization about guys and yaoi, I have some guy friends who identify 100% straight but enjoy non-explicit yaoi just as much as any other fiction of comparable quality.

The problem the yuri community has with the yaoi community is that (and this is speaking from my own experiences not necessarily the entire sub-genre) outsiders generally either lump yuri fans in with the yaoi and/or hentai fans. But we're not necessarily either. Take this for example, every year there are three panels at Kumoricon related to yaoi/yuri: the shoujo-ai/shonen-ai party, the yuri panel, and the yaoi panel. Of the three of these I have only attended the first and I was one of four people in a room of over fifty who was there for shoujo-ai. And despite it's title we ONLY discussed shonen-ai and some yaoi fans even openly made anti-yuri statements with absolutely no provoking. And the yuri panel is almost always in the same room as the yaoi panel from what I hear and has almost the same problem except that there is someone who is at least trying to orient it toward yuri.

I think on an American culture level you are right, girls are somewhat expected to be bisexual while men are assumed to be either straight or gay. But on an American otaku standpoint, I think the yaoi fans are quick to assume this carries over into the fandom. And if you are wanting to discuss stereotypes, all men are often assumed to like yuri, or they are probably gay. That's sort of the same, don't you think?

Actually, theres no disagreement here. I'm not making the generalization.  It seems to be a socially enforced stereotype that I don't agree with.

My personal philosophy is 'whatever floats your boat" but on more than one occasion Ive been insulted for not wanting to read/watch yuri. I'm not even 'eww' about it.  Just 'not mah thang".

Its similar on 'this side' of things. I like yaoi but Im almost afraid to admit it because so many obnoxious people make the rest of us look bad.

Anyway, yah, thats the general idea of whatI was saying

I totally know what you mean.  My problem doesn't come with people just not liking yuri but liking yaoi (that's a simple question of taste, and I'm not one to complain about personal preferences!).  My problem comes with yaoi fans who are crazy about guys kissing each other, yet are offended or annoyed by girls kissing.  I think it's partially that, from what I've seen, a lot of yaoi tends to completely ignore the life-style aspect of being gay.  I know some of this is due to it being Japan, and thus a different cultural obviously, but it always feels kind of empty to me.  Basically, it feels like it's written for girls (which it is) instead of gay boys (much like lesbian porn in America).  Which is all well and good, but I'd much rather be reading some cool queer lit that's actually dealing with the issues its bringing up.  To be fair though, I don't read much/any yaoi, so I could be missing out on some series that do that.

I definitely know what you mean, I often get blank stares for not wanting to read yaoi, when I have nothing against it, it's just not my thing :D

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #165 on: September 10, 2009, 01:35:21 am »

 Im hesitant to post my opinion here but I am one of those horrible people who likes yaoi and not yuri. I just want to shed some light-

Im a straight woman. I like to look at men, not women. Theres nothing else to it and Im not begrudging anyone who does.

That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.
 Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.

I dont understand how one preference is more acceptable than another and Id like to explore the psychological/social reason for that idea.
Guys just don't open up as much.  Personally I've seen a lot of guys I thought "dam that's a nice set of abs," though it was more of an "I want mine like that" then something to do with me liking the guy in some other way. It's all dependant on who the person is, and how they open themselves up.  As for girls expected to be more open?  Well they just are, so that's how its going to be until you see more guys home cooking and watching their kids then woman.  Which wont happen for a while, its just how we were organized in this crazy world, go ahead and try and change it if you dare.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #166 on: September 10, 2009, 08:51:28 pm »
Guys just don't open up as much.  Personally I've seen a lot of guys I thought "dam that's a nice set of abs," though it was more of an "I want mine like that" then something to do with me liking the guy in some other way. It's all dependent on who the person is, and how they open themselves up.  As for girls expected to be more open?  Well they just are, so that's how its going to be until you see more guys home cooking and watching their kids then woman.  Which wont happen for a while, its just how we were organized in this crazy world, go ahead and try and change it if you dare.

Hmm, well I disagree with a lot of what you said but please do not take what I am about to write offensively. I think the new "expectation for women to be bisexual" is socially a very new element of American culture- other cultures have had it longer (ie Japan) or not at all (ie Latino culture). I think this has very little to do with women being more expressive than men, although they are indeed encouraged to be so in our society. Instead I think that this can be largely attributed to two other factors--

First, the prevalence of queer women in American pop-culture. Before the '90s there were few if any "out" women in the limelight. Indeed, an expression has occurred in lesbian culture referring to this- "After Ellen". With more queer women in the public's mind, it makes sense that queer women were in fact thought about more often. Of course, the same can be said for gay men in the last ten-twenty years, so obviously this is only part of the cause.

The second element here is definitely up to interpretation, but I attribute it to the prevalence of "lesbians" in heterosexual pornography. (I use "lesbians" to refer to depictions of women who are described as lesbian but who actually behave as bisexuals.) With being queer becoming increasingly socially acceptable and with lesbians already being so heavily sexualized, it was a natural progression for lesbian-fetishists to take it one step further and begin suggesting to women that they /should/ be attracted to other women, rather than /could/. This was no doubt re-enforced by songs like "I Kissed a Girl", which we briefly touched upon in the panel.

Returning to the question "Why are women expected to like yuri?" and the response "Men are less expressive (and the conclusion that this will stay the same until men "cook and watch after children more than women")": Interest in yuri is unarguably not mainstream, especially non-hentai yuri (hentai itself couldn't be construed as mainstream), so there cannot be any special clause in American consciousness for it. Instead we are seeing a separate but connected phenomena adapting to our own specific subculture.

As for camname21's response, I find myself quite bothered by his underlying assumptions because they would mean that, if they are true, America is still unwilling to accept male homosexuals. However, within our own subculture there is proof that he is at least partially incorrect-- yaoi is consumed almost entirely by women so the sexual interest in opposite-gender homosexuals definitely exists in females as well. And even more conclusively, I have certainly had self-proclaimed "yaoi-fangirl" friends who are /constantly/ trying to pressure their friends into yaoi, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation. I think the lower proliferation of this can be almost entirely accounted for by the greater acceptance of lesbians in comparison to gays in American society.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #167 on: September 10, 2009, 08:57:35 pm »
I apologize for the extremely long post. A TL;DR version for those of you who can't be bothered to read all of that: Some men find lesbians sexy. Lesbians are getting lots of new civil rights. Some women find gays sexy. Gays are arguably further behind in civil rights. As gays get more civil rights and homophobia towards them fades it is likely that yaoi will become even more popular and there will be a larger number of women who begin to pressure men into liking it as well.

Related: I find it ironic that at the end of my enormous post about prevalence of "lesbians" in heterosexual pornography, my recent anime list showed "Resort BOIN" which does include some of that. XD I hate when my anime list is embarrassing!

ALSO: Rose (my new co-panelist) and I are looking for ideas on how to make this panel even better next year. Please contact me if you have any good ideas! =3

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2009, 09:03:07 pm »
Uh, you don't have to be gay to like yuri/shoujo-ai/yaoi/shonen-ai/ Wth,.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #169 on: September 10, 2009, 09:22:04 pm »
Uh, you don't have to be gay to like yuri/shoujo-ai/yaoi/shonen-ai/ Wth,.

Umm... when did anybody imply this? I'm sure that I wouldn't have, but perhaps I missed someone else suggesting that?

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #170 on: September 10, 2009, 09:25:57 pm »

Yet assumed that ALL woman are 'at least a little bit gay "and enjoy yuri to the extent that if we DONT like yuri, were intolerant, terrible people.


Maybe I'm  misinterpreting it but that's just a ridiculous concept.

Hohoho, sorry for budding in though~

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2009, 09:28:03 pm »
Maybe I'm  misinterpreting it but that's just a ridiculous concept.

Hohoho, sorry for budding in though~

She was specifically speaking against that perception, not condoning it. And yes, I think we can all agree that it is ridiculous.

And nono, that's definitely fine. :3 We welcome your thoughts!

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2009, 10:30:05 pm »
Well let me first say, my comments here are more of an outsiders? perspective.  I have absolutely no experience with yaoi and yuri, in fact I don't remember which one means which.  While this should not de-credit anything I say, it does show that I do not understand much of these anime cultures.  In my comment I was merely throwing my thoughts on the specific homosexual quote posted.  Wops I notice I didn't reduce the quotes :D   oh well.  Anyhow this is a more accurate and refined quote specifically to what I responded to.
That a topic Id LIKE to discuss. Its always met with " No your wrong shut up" - but why is it a widely accepted social stigma that unless a guy is openly gay they are dead against guy on guy, and wont even admit " oh hey that guys hot" and that's alright.

Now, while Murder_of_Raven has a point, all I'm saying is guys are not portrayed as sexually open in mainstream TV (not just anime) and to a lesser degree in real life public situations.  However this has changed in the last few years, and guys are probably on the same page as girls in some social circles.  Outside of the anime genres things are a little different, and that would where my thoughts are coming from.  Commence bashing me now..  :(

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2009, 11:31:42 pm »
Commence bashing me now..  :(

Eep! I was specifically trying not to bash you. See:
Hmm, well I disagree with a lot of what you said but please do not take what I am about to write offensively.

Your opinion is certainly welcome and valid, I was just adding my thoughts on the matter! Also, fyi: yaoi=gay content, yuri=lesbian content. Now you know.

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #174 on: September 10, 2009, 11:55:39 pm »
I knew what they were, just not which one went with which gender.  I see that yaoi has an A in it now "for gAy", so I think I'll be able to remember now.  As for bashing, it wasn't so bad, just me messing up more on my original quote, opening my shiny armor up to your gay hammer. :D

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #175 on: September 11, 2009, 12:50:14 am »
I knew what they were, just not which one went with which gender.  I see that yaoi has an A in it now "for gAy", so I think I'll be able to remember now.  As for bashing, it wasn't so bad, just me messing up more on my original quote, opening my shiny armor up to your gay hammer. :D
Yay! That is hardly the worst mnemonic I've heard for remembering yaoi. Gay hammer? I don't believe I have one of those XD

Offline camname21

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #176 on: September 11, 2009, 12:42:19 pm »
Yay! That is hardly the worst mnemonic I've heard for remembering yaoi. Gay hammer? I don't believe I have one of those XD
I believe you now have a new prop to build ^.^
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:42:37 pm by camname21 »

Offline Thessaliad

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #177 on: September 12, 2009, 05:55:29 am »
I promised Murder of Raven that I would post a list of the manga/anime titles that came up during the discussion, and here they are, belated though they may be.

First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Outlaw Star
Gurren Lagan
Magical shopping Arcade
Okane ga Nai (I happen to love this one to death, but it is really horrible)
Utopia of Homosexuality

Gay-friendly Manga

Family Compo
I's
Speed-Grapher
Paradise Kiss
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Kashi Mashi
Strawberry Egg
Junjou Romantica
Plica
Yellow
Strawberry Shake Sweet
Maria-sama Watches Over Us
Rose of Versailles
After-School Romance
My Two Wings
Watashi wa Bambi
Transistor Venus
Indigo Blue
Haru wo Daiteita
Burst Angel

I'm bad, I didn't write down the genre of the manga or which of these were in translation, so anyone who has that info, please let me know and I will update.

Thanks!

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #178 on: September 12, 2009, 10:09:51 am »
Wow thanks, that list is very helpful!  I always have trouble finding LGBTQ possitive stuff, so I'm usually hesitant to try stuff.  Utena is one of my favorites, though!

Is Maria-sama Watches Over Us also know as Maria Holic?  If not, has anyone seen that series?  I've watched about half of it, and it seemed like it had promise, but also seemed like it could go really bad and end up "fixing" the open lesbian main character into being straight by the end.  I unfortunately haven't had a chance to finish the series yet, so if you have try not to completely ruin the end for me, but I would like to know if it's worth my time...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #179 on: September 12, 2009, 10:33:37 am »
Wow thanks, that list is very helpful!  I always have trouble finding LGBTQ possitive stuff, so I'm usually hesitant to try stuff.  Utena is one of my favorites, though!

Is Maria-sama Watches Over Us also know as Maria Holic?  If not, has anyone seen that series?  I've watched about half of it, and it seemed like it had promise, but also seemed like it could go really bad and end up "fixing" the open lesbian main character into being straight by the end.  I unfortunately haven't had a chance to finish the series yet, so if you have try not to completely ruin the end for me, but I would like to know if it's worth my time...

Heehee. No no, Maria Holic is not Maria-sama. I have seen both however.

Maria Holic is brought to us by SHAFT, the same people responsible for Zetsubou Sensei, Pani Poni Dash, and this season's Bakemonogatari. And despite their very different casts they all might as well be the same show. Maria Holic is a wonderful little parody of the entire yuri/gender-bender genre that me and my girlfriend both quite enjoyed (but we are SHAFT fans!), although I warn you that it doesn't really end at all. It just sort of drops off the last episode, leaving you to hope that it'll get picked up for another season.

I have no experience with the manga it is based on so I don't know if in the end they "fix" the main character, but I have to say it doesn't feel like the SHAFT version will do that. After all, the lesbian MC is interested in everyone except the only male character in the show, even his nearly identical female twin XD. That said, its a genre satire so its hardly a "realistic depiction of queer people", it's actually pretty much exactly the opposite.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:36:08 am by murder_of_raven »

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #180 on: September 12, 2009, 04:31:44 pm »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Magical shopping Arcade

Can he even be properly called gay? He saw MuneMune and was so impressed that he wanted to be a woman too. It's stupid, but no less stupid than anything else that happened in there.

Anyway, to add to the + list, Magical Pokémon Journey. Squirtle is in love with Almond, a male human, and even in the Viz Kids translation there's no beating around the bush about this.
It's also stated at one point that Charmander (male) has a thing for Eevee (also male), but the story about it wasn't translated (they stopped translating at volume 7 due to slow sales) and Charmander wound up liking I believe Chikorita (female) later. But hey, bisexual pokemon too, eh?

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #181 on: September 12, 2009, 04:42:38 pm »
There's also the thing with Sailor Moon. There's no arguing about the fact that it's a lesbian anime, but they changed so much to make it as straight as possible when it came to america...
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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #182 on: September 12, 2009, 05:09:08 pm »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Magical shopping Arcade

Can he even be properly called gay? He saw MuneMune and was so impressed that he wanted to be a woman too. It's stupid, but no less stupid than anything else that happened in there.

He might not be classified as "gay" but I would definitely put him under the "genderqueer" umbrella, and not a portrayal imo. But also, I think its a common characteristic in bad portrayals of queer people that they're not exactly sure what sort of queer they are.

And we all try our hardest not to remember that train-wreck of a translation. At least it was better than the "Cardcaptors" dub, at least in my opinion.

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #183 on: September 13, 2009, 02:37:21 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

Here I'm specificaly thinking of Harley from Pokémon, but there's gotta be tons others. He's incredibly flamboyant, and also he's a creepy vindictive jackass, but those don't have anything to do with each other.

Offline nekovamp13

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #184 on: September 13, 2009, 03:05:31 am »
And so is James...And he actually gets a sex change...
~Sakuracon/Kumoricon 2014~
King Candy (Sugar Rush)
Dot (Animaniacs)
Ice King (Adventure Time)
Beetlejuice (Animated Series)
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Octodad (Octodad)

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Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #185 on: September 13, 2009, 03:35:31 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #186 on: September 13, 2009, 11:40:02 am »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.

Yeah, I have to agree with that.  There's nothing wrong with it in theory (I mean, queer people are just as likely to go to the darkside as straight people, afterall, since they're all, well, people), but the problem becomes when the queer villians are the only (or very nearly) queer characters represented.  They can even be awesome characters in themselves, but its more a subtle message: these people are different, these people are wrong.  Again, some very awesome and beloved characters fit into this category, so the main problem is the lack of representation among good characters and POV characters.

And to go back to Maria Holic (sorry, I thought maybe the translated it and called it something else, lol), my main concern was that by the end they would hook her up with the guy character, since that seems to fit shoujo logic, so I'm happy to hear that that doesn't seem to happen.

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #187 on: September 13, 2009, 01:14:05 pm »
...so the main problem is the lack of representation among good characters and POV characters.

...since that seems to fit shoujo logic, so I'm happy to hear that that doesn't seem to happen.

I totally agree that's the problem, I love seeing non-yuri/yaoi in which the MC is just queer, that isn't the focus of the plot or anything. Although they're kind of rare, I can think of a few shows that have that to some extent-- Serial Experiments: Lain, .Hack//Sign, Utena, and of course Evangelion.

And lol meet SHAFT. Firstly Maria Holic is in no way shape or form a shoujo and secondly (more importantly) this is SHAFT we're talking about and they are anything but logic sticklers. Once you see it you'll know what I mean XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #188 on: September 13, 2009, 02:24:30 pm »
And lol meet SHAFT. Firstly Maria Holic is in no way shape or form a shoujo and secondly (more importantly) this is SHAFT we're talking about and they are anything but logic sticklers. Once you see it you'll know what I mean XD

I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #189 on: September 13, 2009, 02:50:18 pm »
I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

I absolutely love SHAFT. Tell me what you think when you've seen some Maria Holic, okay?

Yes indeed, I must say the Kaoru episode of Evangelion is what made me a Gainax fangirl. And yaoi isn't even usually my thing, it was just so awesome that near the end of one of the most influential anime ever they were like, "oh, and the main character is bisexual". And it wasn't an issue, it was just a character trait. Lain does that too ::nodnod::

Anybody know of other shows like that? I mean, other than the ones I mentioned previously.

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #190 on: September 13, 2009, 06:37:26 pm »
I must definitely watch more of there stuff!

I do agree that I love shows where the characters are non-plotfully queer.  It's always very refreshing, all the more so because it's so uncommon (not just in anime, but in most mainstream media in general).

I absolutely love SHAFT. Tell me what you think when you've seen some Maria Holic, okay?

Yes indeed, I must say the Kaoru episode of Evangelion is what made me a Gainax fangirl. And yaoi isn't even usually my thing, it was just so awesome that near the end of one of the most influential anime ever they were like, "oh, and the main character is bisexual". And it wasn't an issue, it was just a character trait. Lain does that too ::nodnod::

Anybody know of other shows like that? I mean, other than the ones I mentioned previously.

Yeah I remember being really impressed by that in Eva, since it really was an "oh by the way" moment, not a big plot point.  I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

I will definitely tell you when I finish Maria Holic!  I just need to download the rest of it, if I remember correctly.  Now I'm excited to finish it!

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #191 on: September 13, 2009, 07:36:01 pm »
I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

Yes, it always amazes me how often people forget that about Lain. Lain is in fact canonically a yuri series, at one point Lain tells Alice that she "loves her". I guess the rest of that show was just so weird that people were distracted or something XD. And yeah, you need to watch Lain two or three times before it makes sense (I've seen it 4 times!).

Offline BlackjackGabbiani

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2009, 06:22:59 pm »
Another thing to be careful with is that a gay villian isn't necessarily a statement about gay people. It's possible to have a villian who just happens to be gay.

I would agree with you in theory, however I believe most people in the LGBTQ community would agree with me that queer people are disproportionately used as villains, especially as secondary villains. When there's a series like Loveless or Sailor Moon, where a large portion of the cast are queer the presence of a queer villain or two seems natural. When they are the only queer character in the only series or, worse and perhaps more common, they are one of several queer villains, at best it questions the tone of a series. All too often it comes off as directly homophobic. I would even maybe place Pokemon in the former category, no offense.


The fandom has always distinguished Harley's flamboyance from his evilness, seeing them as completely unrelated things. Which they are. Frankly, I'd think anyone who tried to connect the two would be an idiot.

Especially considering he's the only "gay villian" we have. Sure there's James but it's been stated that he likes girls. If anyone else is gay (and in gameverse you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that Maxie and Archie didn't have *something* going on at some point), it's never addressed because it doesn't matter.



Heck, in one of the comics, a villian's love (however you define it, it could be a platonic love) for the lead character is his redemption. I could say more but it's a spoiler.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 06:24:38 pm by BlackjackGabbiani »

Offline Serika

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #193 on: September 15, 2009, 12:24:49 am »
First are the "bad" manga, where depictions of GLBTQ folks are horribly stereotyped, portrayed as evil, or just plain awful

Gurren Lagan

Wait, my friend wants me to watch this, but i haven't gotten around to it yet.  What should I look out for? 
lol peer pressure

Plans:
Kumoricon '11: Catherine (Catherine), Nanami (Revolutionary Girl Utena)
Sakuracon '12: Ryfia (Arc Rise Fantasia), other things

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09) Belated Panel report
« Reply #194 on: September 15, 2009, 01:51:46 am »
Wait, my friend wants me to watch this, but i haven't gotten around to it yet.  What should I look out for? 

A fairly minor but extremely stereotypical gay male. Personally I do not believe it ruins the show; I highly recommend it overall.

Offline Winfred

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #195 on: September 15, 2009, 10:23:19 am »
Ooh, ooh, how bout Kuroshitsuji for the "bad" side? The portrayal of the red-headed reaper during the Big Reveal was kinda sorta...just terrible. Eesh. I mean, remember how certain members of Anime Club reacted, Raven? My respect for freshman went plummeting downward!

(Kept purposely vague to reduce spoilage, but y'all would know what I meant if you saw it.)

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #196 on: September 15, 2009, 10:38:51 am »
Ooh, ooh, how bout Kuroshitsuji for the "bad" side?

Hmm, an interesting point. I'm not sure it was negative or not, I've always been sort of split on that character. At first it does come off as a little comic-relief-esque, but later in the series they are considered an important asset. At the very least, all of Kuroshitsuji compares favorably to some of the other shows with questionable queer characters, like Gurren Lagann? Does anybody else have an opinion on this?

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #197 on: September 19, 2009, 11:31:33 pm »
I don't remember when it happened in Lain, but it doesn't surprise me.  I really need to rewatch that, lol.

Yes, it always amazes me how often people forget that about Lain. Lain is in fact canonically a yuri series, at one point Lain tells Alice that she "loves her". I guess the rest of that show was just so weird that people were distracted or something XD. And yeah, you need to watch Lain two or three times before it makes sense (I've seen it 4 times!).

Yeah, like I said, I'm not at all surprised.  It always appealed to my group of friends, which can usually tell you something  ::)  I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Offline murder_of_raven

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #198 on: September 20, 2009, 10:21:06 am »
I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Hahaha that is ironic. I am always amused when I ask somebody how an anime they own is and they reply "I haven't seen it". XD

Offline Rushifa

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Re: Homophobia in Otakudom (09)
« Reply #199 on: September 20, 2009, 04:36:38 pm »
I think I've only seen Lain once, and that was like 6 years ago!  Ironically, I own it...

Hahaha that is ironic. I am always amused when I ask somebody how an anime they own is and they reply "I haven't seen it". XD

Well, usually the stuff I actually own (read: payed money for, as opposed to downloaded), I've seen.  However, I got Lain a few years ago because I friend didn't want it anymore (I think he got a better version or something, this one is slightly bootleged), and of course I accepted it, but I haven't gotten around to watching it.