Author Topic: Portland Convention Center?  (Read 9280 times)

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Offline melchizedek

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Portland Convention Center?
« on: February 13, 2008, 09:57:24 pm »
At the Hilton, the halls tended to be way crowded, and for 2008 I don't think it is going to be much better.  So there has been some talk about a cap on attendance... at what attendance would it be econonomicly possible to move the con to the portland convention center or something like that?

I'd hate to see k-con turn into a convention where people can't just show up and participate.
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Offline totemo_oishii

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2008, 10:00:08 pm »
There has been previous discussions on his idea.

One of the reasons we don't have it at the convention center is because of the hotel issue...

Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2008, 10:10:57 pm »
We don't have an "official" cap yet to my knowledge as it's a difficult issue to fully realize until further into the planning of the con.

Cap isn't just convention space, but programming related. Also if we want to set any limits on day passes. The nice thing about the DoubleTree, and I said this in another thread is, there are "attendee sinks", where people can go and get out of the halls. Lloyd Center, the Park, even the exhibit hall. It's also staffing related. If we get enough staff, for programming, yojimbo, etc, then we can have a high cap (assuming the previous conditions hold... of course, even if we had 300 staff, if there's only 40 hours of programming for a 3 day con, we have an issue. =P).

I'd say highest cap we could think of would be 4k, at this point. We could go higher, but I think we'd have to have the japanese subway guys with white gloves pushing people into rooms or against the walls. =P

Good questions though. I might cover some of these type things in my presentation next meeting.
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Offline Druihd

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2008, 10:16:57 pm »
(I helped find the location in previous years, so I know a bit about this)

We have looked at the convention center in years past and it has always been cost-prohibited.  Due to it not being at a hotel, there are issues with us providing our own security (yojimbo), and also cost of power is much greater.  We are getting to the point were I know we finally have the attendance to make it feasible.  Though, individual department budgets would probably have to be reduced for it to happen.

I know it is being considered for possible 2010, though I joke to the treasurer that we could do it in 09.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 12:26:15 am »
What are your thoughts on a multi-hotel solution as an option in the short term?
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 12:46:16 am »
Sorry, who's thoughts? I think Tara and or Eric might have a better opinion of this. Actually, I think John would have the best opinion having worked with Sakuracon during their years in the Hilton/Marriott at Seatac.

From my basic opinion, multiple hotels is a bit of a pain because you have a lot of people walking across the street, or block to get to the other hotel. Hopefully they're smart enough to do it in a safe way, but it's never good when you have that many Pocky addicted, Ramune drunk people hopping gleefully across the street. =P

The biggest issue is finding two hotels close to each other with convention space. This can be an issue sometimes. Sak was actually pretty lucky in the Seatac area.
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Offline Druihd

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2008, 01:07:38 am »
I can speak about what has been discussed in the past.

I know several multi-venue options have been on the table before.  When the Thunderbird was still open, there was talk about using that and the Red Lion, like the way Orycon did for years.  Another option was continuing to use the Lloyd center double tree, and have Main Events and Exhibitors at the convention center.  With the logic, that if people are willing to wait sometimes hours for these events, they will be willing to walk 2 blocks.  Another option was the Vancouver Hilton and Red Lion at the Quay.  I would be a big opponent of this for several reasons.  I believe they misrepresented prices to our staff.  (I won't go into much detail, but they have been the worst hotel for me in resolving our final bill.)  And second, we suck up the sales tax in Washington.  The sales tax we were hoping to get around by selling "memberships" instead of badges, but all the at door attendees were essentially given tickets.  So we will be paying the sales tax.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 01:17:03 am »
I'd heard the first part of that but not the second before.

Is there any reason we cannot use that plan?  I actually crafted a specific class of membership just for that reason in to my unofficial bylaws draft.

Quote
Attendee
   1. Need not devote time or effort directly, but shall informally promote the purposes of Altonimbus.
   2. Their membership shall include admission to one or more events as determined by the Board.

Also, in other parts, I ensure that they meet the minimum requirements for 'Membership' as ORS65 defines it (The ability to vote on at least one board position for two elections IIRC, however I let them vote on all of them.)
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 01:23:58 am »
I'm not sure this is entirely relevant to this thread Michael, but...

At one point last year, I'm fairly sure I recall (though, I think it was not at a meeting) deciding that we should remove the idea of "non-voting membership" from the bylaws, and the attendee reg form because it caused confusion, and ultimately didn't give us THAT much.

Personally, I'm not sure I much like the bandwidth it would require at the elections (or general meetings) to allow non-staff to vote. But...

Anyway... can we get back to the purpose of this thread?
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 04:10:50 am »
Actually it was on topic.  One of the major reasons given for not holding the convention in Washington (like last year) is the tax issue.  If being an actual Member (Probably as ORS65 defines it 65.001 Definitions (Sorry, their HTML skills are weak)
Quote
(28)(a) "Member" means any person or persons entitled, pursuant to a domestic or foreign corporation's articles or bylaws, without regard to what a person is called in the articles or bylaws, to vote on more than one occasion for the election of a director or directors.
      (b) A person is not a member by virtue of any of the following rights the person has:
      (A) As a delegate;
      (B) To designate or appoint a director or directors;
      (C) As a director; or
      (D) As a holder of an evidence of indebtedness issued or to be issued by the corporation.
      (c) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection, a person is not a member if the person's membership rights have been eliminated as provided in ORS 65.164 or 65.167.
) means that we don't get the tax ding, then that's one major strike off that area.

The only other issue for that area is something that the hotels right here in Oregon seem to be doing to us as well.  So I think it simply requires -VERY- careful review by a LARGE number of eyes to make sure we think of everything before inking it.
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Offline Evaldas

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2008, 08:31:30 am »
I understand that the costs for the the C-Center is much higher...how much of that would spill over to the vendors and artists? 80 dollars this year is a little hard to swallow, but doable if you are serious about your work. I know if we ended up at the C-Center, that would go up...and well that would not be advisable (Anime expo charges 76 dollars for a 6foot table, no drapes, no space, but a spot in the directory...)

I am still in favor in returning to the Hilton in Vancouver. I haven't been to the Doubletree, but I do have my apprehensions (one being I hate east side for several reasons and I would rather have the straight shot over the river).


Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 08:51:34 am »
Michael,

I'm sorry, your statement still doesn't belong here. If you want to discuss membership, it should be done somewhere else. Preferably with the board. Further, you're speaking of taking away one of the few really tangible things we give to our staff for their service: the vote. A hand in directing the con from year to year. Something that I know was fought for very hard last year for a few special volunteers! Don't you think by giving the average attendee that right, we're taking away something significant from our staff? Why would someone be staff after that? Why not just volunteer and come and go with the con as you please? (I know, and respect, many volunteers are a lot more like staff than attendees, but still). Lastly, I'm pretty familiar at this point with OR Chapter 65. Unless you were quoting it for other people's benefit.

About Vancouver. I think the big point people are forgetting is Kumoricon is and Oregon Convention. We're based in Oregon, and we started in Oregon. We were in Vancouver last year because we had no other choice. While this doesn't rule out going back at some point, it's still a major point.

Also, Michael, no. No other hotels have been as difficult to work with on final billing than last years. It took over a month to get it all straightened out. Normally it takes about 2 weeks, tops. But, I'll defer to Tara on that one since she was the person that handled final billing the last 4 years.

Again, none of these things are particularly relevant to a thread about moving to the convention center.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 09:27:48 am by staze »
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 09:13:34 am »
Well, I heard that the vendor's hall sells out a whole lot faster than the con.  Perhaps more vendors could cover the price of the higher costing venue without passing on the cost to the vendors in terms of higher priced booths?

The whole multi venue convention might be neat.
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 09:23:16 am »
Eric would probably be the person that could answer that one, as Treasurer and former Exhibit/AA Manager.

But generally you're correct, within reason. It really depends on how much more the space costs, and whether we can fully offset that with more cheaper rather than fewer spender. =P

The big problem with the convention center, that at least Sak sees, are Union costs, that can't be negotiated out of a contract. This year, power is included with all AA and Exhibit booths (it's just part of the cost). Sak can't do that because power per booth is like, $300 for the weekend. =/
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Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2008, 09:28:45 am »
We could definitely use some of the parts of the convention center.  
We don't have the money for it and it would be really inconvenient. They don't have the hotels.
If we took the Double Tree and the Holiday Inn and moved them across the street from it then the convention center would be way more attractive, as it stands now though the nearby hotels are too small.

The trouble is that any one hotel we stay at is going to fill up with attendees and if it's not on a MAX line for locals, they'll want a room as well and will likely have to walk a few blocks anyway. Same problem as the convention center. However, holding the con at a hotel allows us to save some money, leaving the department budgets where they are and allowing us to make important gear purchases that make us more self sufficient. After a few more years we're going to have a lot of great gear that we can set up in most any space without requiring the location to provide much at all.

Even if it's crowded for a few years, it'll all work out!
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2008, 09:39:52 am »
Thanks Tom. You bring up good points.

There are a couple really cool things we learned this year since we have been talking to POVA (Portland Oregon Visitors Association) and the Convention Center.

1. We can use our own AV equipment (this was, as I'm sure you heard with the hotel contact/addendum this year, huge).
2. There are financial incentives in place to help growing events move to the convention center. We're obviously going to look into this more, because yes, finances are a HUGE issue. You'd probably be floored if you heard what we pay for a hotel compared to what Sak pays for the Seattle Convention Center. As someone who's seen all the "budgets" from this con since we had them, it makes my ears want to bleed (yes, the cost is so high, I can hear it. =P)

Hotel space is a huge issue. From what I've heard, this may be getting remedied in the coming years. I know there are other groups besides us that really want more Hotel space down on that end of town (NBA anyone? Ever wonder what would happen if the Blazers hosted the Finals at the Rose Garden?). So, it sounds like plans are afoot.

There's also something less tangible. Hotel cons generally are less industrial. At a hotel, you can run up to your room, and change costumes, fix a wig, take a nap, etc. Convention Centers don't really allow that (Fanime is one exception because of the attached Hotel. And Sak isn't too bad when it comes to this). In some ways it would take Kumoricon, and turn it into a trade show.

But, we fully realize that we're outgrowing possible space in the Portland Metro area. And the Convention Center is the logical step, other than having a multi-year cap like Sak did when they were in the Hilton/Marriott. We also know that the Portland Convention Center is larger than Seattle's... so we could theoretically get bigger than Sak in Portland. =p Not that we'd want to... but, you have to keep an open mind.
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Offline Pezzer

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2008, 09:58:59 am »
Well, I heard that the vendor's hall sells out a whole lot faster than the con.  Perhaps more vendors could cover the price of the higher costing venue without passing on the cost to the vendors in terms of higher priced booths?

The whole multi venue convention might be neat.

I hate to say this but it's really the inverse. The more venders you have the less they are willing to spend on their booth. The more attendees we have the more they are willing to spend on a booth.  Think about it that if each attendee was willing to spend $10 in the venders/Artist Alley area (its a round number and this is my example) and say we 3000 attendees last year. So that's $30,000 going around to share between them. So if we add more venders in each one gets less money and going to our con really becomes less attractive to them.

If we want to charge a boat load of money per vender, we would shrink the EX/AA space and charge an arm and a leg cause each person would have such little competition (see 06). And to be honest the Venders would rather pay more and compete less at a con. Though this also means less variety in what is there to buy.

I understand that the costs for the the C-Center is much higher...how much of that would spill over to the vendors and artists? 80 dollars this year is a little hard to swallow, but doable if you are serious about your work. I know if we ended up at the C-Center, that would go up...and well that would not be advisable (Anime expo charges 76 dollars for a 6foot table, no drapes, no space, but a spot in the directory...)

I am still in favor in returning to the Hilton in Vancouver. I haven't been to the Doubletree, but I do have my apprehensions (one being I hate east side for several reasons and I would rather have the straight shot over the river).

The 80 for the booth (not table) really is just barely enough to cover what it costs us for power and to pipe/drape it. i think we have something like a 3 or 4 dollar margin on it. That doesn't even take into account that you also are getting a full pass to the convention. Yes it has gone up from 25 in 05, but it also has started including much more (pass to convention and power). In 06 it was still 25 but that as for half a table.

I can honestly say that if we return to the Hilton again I won’t be apart of the con that year. It was hands down the worst Ex/AA space we have ever had. It was an unconverted parking garage. That is all I will say on it. The Double tree has lots of nice windows and a good ventilation system. Though the Red Lion wins hands down for best view out of the 20’ bay windows, if that space was bigger I would love to go back there (and so would the venders)
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2008, 10:40:39 pm »
Actually, I just realized something.

What do we want the convention center for?
Space Space Space... obviously.  However -when- do we want that space?  When do they bill for it?  If it's anything like Hotel space, what we really want is just Saturday and Sunday for the space.  So the numbers might look different.

As far as the topic of Hotels goes... 2007 was held in a place that I think many attendees enjoyed, even if it wasn't on the maxline.  Space for the exhibitors and other issues should be researched further.  The information at the January meeting was promising.  There are also several other hotels in the area, even though Google doesn't know about them.  There are worse places we could pick, and we shouldn't eliminate this as a consideration.

Hotel billing timeframe, if you want a quick one, negotiate that in to the contract, have deadlines, explicitly mentioned.
Why be Staff if any Member can vote at the Annual Meeting?  All the other things you get to vote on maybe?  Besides, Staff would show up in person for the one meeting they elect the Board at or regret doing so due to scheduling conflicts (and it'd have to be something important for them to miss it).  The average attendee probably wont, but they don't have to actually vote, they just have to have that ability.

... Another option was the Vancouver Hilton and Red Lion at the Quay.  I would be a big opponent of this for several reasons.  I believe they misrepresented prices to our staff.  (I won't go into much detail, but they have been the worst hotel for me in resolving our final bill.)  And second, we suck up the sales tax in Washington.  The sales tax we were hoping to get around by selling "memberships" instead of badges, but all the at door attendees were essentially given tickets.  So we will be paying the sales tax.

I didn't even realize this until the Google map search.  I'm thinking of just the hotels right around that park, as there is more then one, NOT the Red Lion that's still in Oregon.

I don't know anyone in there right mind who would split a convention across a state line and a river like that.  There'd have to be some very compelling reason I haven't thought of to consider it for very long.

Might I also ask for confirmation that the billing issue was with the 2007 hotel, and not the older Red Lion one that may have been used in prior years?
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 12:08:23 am »
The Red Lion at the Quay (in Washington) is not the Red Lion on the River (In Oregon).

The billing issues from 2007 belong in 2007, and not something we need to bring up here because they are heated subject between several people, and I don't wish to breed drama.

No issues, no matter how ill suited, are removed from any table at this point. That means where ever we can find space, and that space has our dates available (or even other dates), is possible. However, all that research is being done by a few people, and reviewed by the board. Though, I assure you, should a change in date be needed, or a major change in venue, that information would be presented to the staff. We've been very lucky to keep our date since the beginning, and our hope is that PAX does not present too much of a drain on our attendee pool.

Billing for convention space is based upon the location. Hotels are generally very accommodating in billing, and allow for payment pretty much anytime up to and including at/after the event (within reason). Convention Centers may or may not be the same way, though I know Sak pays for their space in several installments over the year since their space rental is quite high (just as a number, Otakon pays $10k/day for JUST Air Conditioning (that's $30k in AC). Sure, it's Baltimore, but still... totally different scale. We pay less than that (much less) for all our space, power, etc).

But, if we're wanting to use the convention center for main events, or exhibit hall, we're not talking Sat/Sun, we're talking all 3 days, plus setup and tear down. Exhibitors would not be happy with only having space 2 of the three days, plus having to pay convention center rates. Our AV staff would NOT be happy setting up and tearing down a Main Events space so we could use it for what would amount to 24 hours if we only get it for 2 days.

Many attendees did enjoy the Hilton. Many didn't. Many attendees enjoyed the DoubleTree in 05. Many didn't. Hell, many enjoyed the Clarion in 03, or the Marriott in 04. Most attendees don't overly care about the hotel space as long as the programming is good, and what they want to do is allowed, and easy to do. I assure you, if we had the crappiest hotel on the planet, if we had awesome programming, and friendly staff, they'd still enjoy themselves. =) I would.

Hotel billing is in the contract. It was in 07, and has been every year. But it's a one way thing. It's so they have a way to force us to pay the bill, not so we have a way to force them to give us the bill, or look at billing issues that arise. They're not going to sign a contact that says "You must provide us with a detailed, accurate bill within 14 days of our event, so that accounts can be paid". Because ultimately, the people on their end that sign the contact aren't the people that do Accounts Receivable. Catering Services, or Event Services don't really handle billing. It would be like signing up for a credit card and you stipulating that they have to bill you in a timely manner, or else you can sue them. They're totally not going to sign that... because stuff happens. The accountant is sick, there is a billing question, etc.

From your previous post, it sounded like you were arguing that any member can vote for any thing. If I misread that, I apologize. But ultimately, the point still stands. The vote contention issue in the past hasn't been over the right to vote for a motion, it's been the right to vote for leadership of the con, and therefore the direction the con takes in any given year. Further, most attendees (and therefore non-staff members) have no clue who people are, why they help run the con, or why they want to be in a leadership role, and ultimately, have relatively nothing to loose should bad leadership be elected. They can just hit another con, or lament the loss of our con, but ultimately, get over it. A staff member, or someone that has really put their heart and soul into this con for the year (or several), has something to lose for bad leadership. It's like asking an American to vote for in the Japanese elections. Sure, if we vote for crappy people, and their economy tanks, we're going to lose a lot of really important stuff in our market (Toyota? Sony? etc), but it's not going to kill us. But if we vote for crappy leadership here in our country... see the point?

I understand the law in Chapter 65, and I understand that our current bylaws and policies show a flaw like this. It's going to have to be something that is addressed, but I don't think it's fair to our staff to fix it in the way you are proposing, but rather to change things so that attendees are not members. I guess, in a possible compromise situation, since it isn't exactly fair to the attendees to strip them of an assumed right, we could have one or two board positions that were elected by ALL members, and some that were elected by only staff members. This would satisfy Chapter 65, as well as prevent any excess hardship on either party. Again though, this is something that will need to be discussed and chewed over for a while. But at the moment, I can't see any serious flaws with this option.

And as always, thanks for the interest.


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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 05:35:21 am »
The Red Lion at the Quay (in Washington) is not the Red Lion on the River (In Oregon).
Wow, there are two that close... I didn't even notice, I just saw it as I was zooming in.

From your previous post, it sounded like you were arguing that any member can vote for any thing. If I misread that, I apologize. But ultimately, the point still stands. The vote contention issue in the past hasn't been over the right to vote for a motion, it's been the right to vote for leadership of the con, and therefore the direction the con takes in any given year. Further, most attendees (and therefore non-staff members) have no clue who people are, why they help run the con, or why they want to be in a leadership role, and ultimately, have relatively nothing to loose should bad leadership be elected. They can just hit another con, or lament the loss of our con, but ultimately, get over it. A staff member, or someone that has really put their heart and soul into this con for the year (or several), has something to lose for bad leadership. It's like asking an American to vote for in the Japanese elections. Sure, if we vote for crappy people, and their economy tanks, we're going to lose a lot of really important stuff in our market (Toyota? Sony? etc), but it's not going to kill us. But if we vote for crappy leadership here in our country... see the point?

As I said in my prior post here, those who aren't interested aren't likely to vote.  Just look at the normal political elections for proof of that.

I must ask you though, if you're so worried about the possibility having any attendees at all vote in each of the position's elections, what position(s) would you be willing to let them vote on?
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 06:35:54 am »
I've been to a few large events at the memorial coliseum has the con ever put a bid in there?

For me as an attendee in 2007 the biggest turn off was not the staff, but the lack of large enough rooms for the most popular events.

1.) Cosplay contest

2.) Ball dance

3.) Closing ceremonies

4.) AMV contest

It really was sad to see people get excluded from these events.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 06:49:44 am »
Well, the room assigned for Random Panel of Doom, and the room for Anime that Scared me for Life were small as well.  Though I think if we'd opened up the wall in that pair of divided rooms in the north-east corner then it would have sufficed.

However I don't know about what else was using those rooms during that time...

Somehow though, I wonder where a solution is.  Offhand I don't think this year's hotel will much improve that, though it might do so just enough.
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Offline Evaldas

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 08:23:41 am »
The 80 for the booth (not table) really is just barely enough to cover what it costs us for power and to pipe/drape it. i think we have something like a 3 or 4 dollar margin on it. That doesn't even take into account that you also are getting a full pass to the convention. Yes it has gone up from 25 in 05, but it also has started including much more (pass to convention and power). In 06 it was still 25 but that as for half a table.

I can honestly say that if we return to the Hilton again I won’t be apart of the con that year. It was hands down the worst Ex/AA space we have ever had. It was an unconverted parking garage. That is all I will say on it. The Double tree has lots of nice windows and a good ventilation system. Though the Red Lion wins hands down for best view out of the 20’ bay windows, if that space was bigger I would love to go back there (and so would the venders)

By all means, I am not complaining. I think the deal you offer is pretty tight and I appreciate that. And I would have to agree I wouldn't mind returning to the Red Lion because of the view I had from the table was fabulous, but even that year, it was way too small.

And as for the space, I guess I have poor taste when it comes to peddling my goods. ; )


Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 08:42:50 am »
The Red Lion at the Quay (in Washington) is not the Red Lion on the River (In Oregon).
Wow, there are two that close... I didn't even notice, I just saw it as I was zooming in.

The really weird thing is the Thunderbird that is across I-5 from the RedLion we used in 06 also used to be a Red Lion. =P They were like Starbucks! Everywhere!

From your previous post, it sounded like you were arguing that any member can vote for any thing. If I misread that, I apologize. But ultimately, the point still stands. The vote contention issue in the past hasn't been over the right to vote for a motion, it's been the right to vote for leadership of the con, and therefore the direction the con takes in any given year. Further, most attendees (and therefore non-staff members) have no clue who people are, why they help run the con, or why they want to be in a leadership role, and ultimately, have relatively nothing to loose should bad leadership be elected. They can just hit another con, or lament the loss of our con, but ultimately, get over it. A staff member, or someone that has really put their heart and soul into this con for the year (or several), has something to lose for bad leadership. It's like asking an American to vote for in the Japanese elections. Sure, if we vote for crappy people, and their economy tanks, we're going to lose a lot of really important stuff in our market (Toyota? Sony? etc), but it's not going to kill us. But if we vote for crappy leadership here in our country... see the point?

As I said in my prior post here, those who aren't interested aren't likely to vote.  Just look at the normal political elections for proof of that.

Very true. But the fact remains, whether they exercise their right to vote or not, they still have the right, and therefore have something the staff actually had to work to get, rather than something the attendees paid to get.

I must ask you though, if you're so worried about the possibility having any attendees at all vote in each of the position's elections, what position(s) would you be willing to let them vote on?

I really don't know, which is why I said it would have to be mulled over. At first thought, it would probably also require significant restructuring of the Board, and position responsibilities, with the creation/assignment of a board level position that largely impacts the attendees rather than the staff. Fanime has a very different board then we do, and has a position called "Fan Services" that's largely an amalgamation of our Programming and Relations Directors. However, Fanime is NOT a democracy. The chair is appointed by a small group of "shareholders", and that chair then appoints all directors.

One point I think largely missed in a lot of this discussion is just how different we (and Sak for that matter) are than many other very successful cons when it comes to election or appointment of our board. But, that's an ideological argument, and not really something for this thread/forum.
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Offline Pezzer

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2008, 11:43:07 am »
if we allow for your attendees to vote wouldn't that mean we would have to meet quarum regarding them as well? so we would need something like 2k people at the elections meetings?

and once again this isn't the right thread to be talking about this in.

The 80 for the booth (not table) really is just barely enough to cover what it costs us for power and to pipe/drape it. i think we have something like a 3 or 4 dollar margin on it. That doesn't even take into account that you also are getting a full pass to the convention. Yes it has gone up from 25 in 05, but it also has started including much more (pass to convention and power). In 06 it was still 25 but that as for half a table.

I can honestly say that if we return to the Hilton again I won’t be apart of the con that year. It was hands down the worst Ex/AA space we have ever had. It was an unconverted parking garage. That is all I will say on it. The Double tree has lots of nice windows and a good ventilation system. Though the Red Lion wins hands down for best view out of the 20’ bay windows, if that space was bigger I would love to go back there (and so would the venders)

By all means, I am not complaining. I think the deal you offer is pretty tight and I appreciate that. And I would have to agree I wouldn't mind returning to the Red Lion because of the view I had from the table was fabulous, but even that year, it was way too small.

And as for the space, I guess I have poor taste when it comes to peddling my goods. ; )



yeah the hotel was nice and all but the vender hall would have been better at about twice the size. but then we would be displacing Main Events. and they get all bitchy. and there wasn't unused space that we could just snag for that.
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Offline BigGuy

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 02:14:40 pm »
Well, the room assigned for Random Panel of Doom, and the room for Anime that Scared me for Life were small as well.
Jaki showed the room my panel will be in this year and it's much bigger. On a side note this is the hotel I first ran my panel in.(never thought it would get so popular)
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 08:56:36 pm »
if we allow for your attendees to vote wouldn't that mean we would have to meet quarum regarding them as well? so we would need something like 2k people at the elections meetings?

Actually not if quorum is properly defined.  I don't recall the state laws having anything deal-breaking in that area.  Though that may be a concern for the current definition of quorum in my unofficial draft, or rather the possible current lack there of for elections.

Staze: I realized what your actual concern is earlier this afternoon after I'd slept on it.  I think what you're trying to express is that my suggestion gives the attendees more power then the staff.  There are several ways of working around this, but off the top of my head I'm not sure if any are disallowed by ORS65.

In general, the solution for my suggestion is to modify it in a way that limits the effective power of Attendee (and Prior Attendee) class memberships proportionally to that of the Staff.

One way of doing this would be a scaling filter.  The Staff present would vote, and the Attendees present would vote.  Attendee voting slots would be determined as a percentage of staff voting (so if 90 staff vote, and attendees get 10%, they would have 9 voting slots).  The Attendees present making up at most one vote per person, or dividing the slots proportionally based upon how they vote.  Fractional voting allowed.

Another way would be to adapt cumulative voting and distribute the voting points in a similar way to the votes above, but give Staff and Attendees different levels of points.  Possibly only one point per Attendee, and multiple points to inflate the value of being Staff.

The state laws seem to have some complications for cumulative voting however, and I think we may want to avoid those.

Still that's just a suggested resolution, showing that it isn't Impossible to allow Attendees to be part of the Membership (as Oregon defines it), and thus that if Members are exempt from taxation for membership to an Oregon based institution.  That being the case, the consideration of areas in Washington can be included in considerations based simply on the area's inherent merit verses others.

As I currently see it, the focus of this thread is the (Portland) Convention Center, VS other venues.

If you (generic) happen to agree, are there any other venues besides the 2007 location that we should be considering?
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2008, 02:06:00 am »
Michael, I agree. Though, it's funny because I just kept thinking of post-emancipation laws regarding the right of freed slave vote (3/5th rule). But yeah... there are options... certainly something to discuss. I'm not really saying the attendees would have more power, though I suppose they certainly have the power of numbers. I think ultimately what I'm saying is that we have little we can actually "give" the staff for their work... voting is the biggest thing. But, that's a heated heated debate.

The attendee/prior attendee thing is a bit moot IF we were to only give attendees the vote on director elections, because at that point, there are no "Current attendees" but only former attendees. Currently, attendee memberships expire just after the annual meeting. Which I guess presents it own problem with attendee voting... since for a given time during the con year, there are basically no attendees. =/

As for other venues, there are all kinds of options. Downtown Hilton/Exec Center, Waterfront Marriott, DoubleTree (same as this year), Vancouver Hilton, Seatac Hilton/Marriott =P. Other than that, it's the convention center. As for who people are getting information on at this point, or anything like that, that's not ready for public discussion yet (to my knowledge). Hopefully within the coming months, since we really need to book earlier and earlier each year.

So yeah... let's keep going on the main topic. =P
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2008, 03:03:05 pm »
Just wanted to point out that it's the Oregon Convention Center, not the Portland Convention Center.

Site Specs

From my experience going to events there, I think we may still have an issue, not of too little space, but too much space.  Just the exhibition space alone would very comfortably accomodate 1200 exhibits plus another 3000 people.  If we CONtinue to grow at our current rate, (last year ~25% growth, 2006 ~22% growth, 2005 ~28% growth) we should be expecting between 3500 (18% growth) and 4000 (33% growth) total attendees.  Since many of them would not be present at many given times, much of the time, the con would seem to fluctuate between seeming very empty in the large rooms and very crowded in the hallways and big events.  I've been to a number of events at the convention center, and I feel like the events that have a lot of empty space kind of scare you away; it gives you the same feeling as an event closing down or a fair leaving town.  We don't want a lot more space than we need, and if congoers feel crowded, they will get un-crowded.

I agree on the Convention Center as a possibility for 2010, but 2008 we'll be just fine, and 2009 we'll just have to be crowded for find somewhere else, but not the Convention Center unless we have a huge growth increase. (I don't think the Convention Center would be adviseable with less than 4500 attendees if we're using the full space.)

Also, hotelzabitch.  Having to leave the building and walk to the nearest hotel is a pain, especially when you're as exhausted as any good congoer should be.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2008, 08:43:28 pm »
It would also be detrimental to 'back to room' trips for these types of things:

  • Stash vendor goodies
  • Quickly grab snack between events
  • Quickly change Cosplay
  • Cosplay that's 'weather sensitive' (some may be prone to making you sweat if it's hot and sunny, or freeze if it's at all inclimate, and a lot may be vulnerable to rain.)

Probably there are a few other detractions as well.  Some of these also hold for other sites, and in general the choice between a one or two block walk outside and no growth at all is somewhat obvious.  Especially if there is a near-by hotel that's also on our official list and we've rented some exterior tenting/corridors to temporary upgrade much of the path between the two.

However breaking the event/hotel layout across more then a very short few blocks, even if covered by a transit system like the Maxline, is just not really a good idea in my view.  The Maxline would cause us to depart and arrive in blocks, which would then crash in waves against the elevators at the various hotels, or through stressed yojimbo.  Either end seeing seemingly unending lines that just don't make sense.

Actually, thinking about the exterior tent/corridor things more, they might be nice on sunny days too.
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Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2008, 10:15:18 pm »
I think there's a misunderstanding about moving to the convention center. Yes, it's big... it's very big. But, we don't need to take up the whole space. We only need the space we need... which means we could use smaller breakout rooms, or only part of the exhibit space (Fanime uses a HUGE room for their AA, and most of it is empty: hall space, empty back parts of rooms, etc).

Michael is right... there are a lot of things that are impacted by moving to a space that lacks "residential space". The nice thing about the Oregon Convention Center (sorry, I grew up in Portland, and for a long time it was called the Portland Convention Center... just like it used to be the Washington County Zoo, not the Oregon Zoo. =P), is that it is on the Max line, and there are several places to stay within 1-2 stops, or within a few blocks. But, that's still not a great option.

Ideally in 2009 we'd move to a slightly larger venue, and really save up for the 2010 convention center move. But, it REALLY depends on what things shape up to be this year.

Tofu, thanks for the percentage increase numbers. I'll be covering that more in my presentation at the next meeting. =)


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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2008, 02:42:13 am »
Just wanted to point out that it's the Oregon Convention Center, not the Portland Convention Center.

Site Specs

From my experience going to events there, I think we may still have an issue, not of too little space, but too much space.  Just the exhibition space alone would very comfortably accomodate 1200 exhibits plus another 3000 people.  If we CONtinue to grow at our current rate, (last year ~25% growth, 2006 ~22% growth, 2005 ~28% growth) we should be expecting between 3500 (18% growth) and 4000 (33% growth) total attendees.  Since many of them would not be present at many given times, much of the time, the con would seem to fluctuate between seeming very empty in the large rooms and very crowded in the hallways and big events.  I've been to a number of events at the convention center, and I feel like the events that have a lot of empty space kind of scare you away; it gives you the same feeling as an event closing down or a fair leaving town.  We don't want a lot more space than we need, and if congoers feel crowded, they will get un-crowded.

I agree on the Convention Center as a possibility for 2010, but 2008 we'll be just fine, and 2009 we'll just have to be crowded for find somewhere else, but not the Convention Center unless we have a huge growth increase. (I don't think the Convention Center would be adviseable with less than 4500 attendees if we're using the full space.)

Also, hotelzabitch.  Having to leave the building and walk to the nearest hotel is a pain, especially when you're as exhausted as any good congoer should be.
Until we have a contract signed we don't HAVE to do anything.  I don't remember anyone pre-deciding that 2009 needs to be overcrowded.  Hopefully 2009 won't be overcrowded but also not cause the convention to go broke with venue cost.

As for walking, a couple blocks doesn't bother me, I had to walk 2 blocks from hotel to sakuracon, and for kumoricon I drove in from oregon each day.  That being said, I understand the benefit of the hotel deal, just a little miffed to see stuff shot down when the future is still up in the air.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2008, 02:59:54 am »
I think what everyone is saying is that it's somewhat unrealistic to expect the convention center next year.  Not to stop considering it, but definitely to look at all possible aspects, including weighing various pros and cons.  Some of which, for both things, we are currently looking in to.
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Offline melchizedek

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2008, 04:18:05 am »
Yeah, thanks for the answers, I've learned quite a lot.  It is a bit surprising to see board members being so transparent.
I think I like the change.

thx :)
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2008, 04:38:17 am »
Er, wow, that reply REALLY changed the implied meaning of my own content for a casual reader.  The 'we' in my context is us, here, in this thread.  I am not on the board (Note the lack of that for my profile, and my signature.) for anyone getting me confused with Mike. (note not Michael, Mike in that case)

Though some of those in the conversation were from the board.
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Offline DancingTofu

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2008, 09:41:57 pm »
Tofu, thanks for the percentage increase numbers. I'll be covering that more in my presentation at the next meeting. =)
Sure thing.  I just wanted to give myself some numbers to work with.  You may want to check those though.  I didn't supply a number for 2004 because that was a 225% growth from 2003 or a 68% growth out of 2004. (The formula used for the percentages was 100(Yn - Yn-1)/Yn, so if you were to use one of those two percentages, the 68% one would be the one to use.)

Quote from: melchizedek
Until we have a contract signed we don't HAVE to do anything.  I don't remember anyone pre-deciding that 2009 needs to be overcrowded.  Hopefully 2009 won't be overcrowded but also not cause the convention to go broke with venue cost.
Sorry, I made a typo in the sentence you were addressing.  I meant to say that we'd either be crowded or find another venue, unless we have an attendance cap, but that doesn't sound likely, and I doubt many people would back that.  Finding another venue seems the most reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 09:50:49 pm by DancingTofu »
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Offline Evaldas

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2008, 08:22:25 am »
Well, I definitely agree that this is still a civil discussion. It is good to point out both sides and let it sit in the back the mind as we gear up for this year's convention. Sure, stats say we could have growth, major growth, but there is every possibility that we may hold to about the same attendance. Possibly for even several years (hold at +/-3500-4000).

Perhaps, it might be beneficial to do a quick recap of the pros and cons of the Convention Center thus far. I know the CC has been talking about wanting to build a hotel next door somewhere, but there is problems on who is going to fund it...especially since Portland doesn't want to flip for it. Lots can change within a few year or there can be minimal.

Offline melchizedek

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2008, 09:02:37 am »
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4184/is_20050119/ai_n10047766  here is a somewhat dated article about expansion plans. 

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-7121129_ITM this one says there are kinda having trouble acquiring the land

So I dunno, maybe in 2010 there will be a hotel adjacent to the convention center...
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Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2008, 10:17:30 am »
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4184/is_20050119/ai_n10047766  here is a somewhat dated article about expansion plans. 

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-7121129_ITM this one says there are kinda having trouble acquiring the land

So I dunno, maybe in 2010 there will be a hotel adjacent to the convention center...


Ah, at last. I've been waiting to read about these plans of theirs.
Way back in 2004 Sean mentioned that they were going to be building a hotel for the OCC and by the time they finished it Kumoricon "...will have gotten big enough to justify the convention center."

It might end up being true even if it's not on the original schedule.
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Offline MichaelEvans

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2008, 11:43:32 am »
Not having read the articles, I still won't hold my breath.  When they break ground and give a window on the hotel, then Kumoricon can start negotiations and see if it's workable at all.  Until then I don't think it should be included it in any year's plans for next year.  Though I'm not ruling out wanting to plan on it, I'm just being realistically slightly pessimistic.
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Offline Evaldas

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2008, 02:05:25 pm »
By all means, I don't think too many of us are. Wanting a hotel there has been in talks for quite sometime, so there is every likelihood that nothing will become of it. It is just something to keep in mind as a potential, a distant potential, but a potential all the same.

Offline staze

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2008, 06:59:06 pm »
Again, I want to make clear that nothing has been decided one way or the other on anything for next year, or the year after. We could still end up at the OCC next year, but at this point, there's nothing to say on that, and there are mixed feelings on the board (as well as in the staff) about making that move (there have been arguments for years, as Tom hints at, about what moving to a CC would do to the "Kumoricon Feel"). This con was started by, and is still run by fans. And we know that moving to a CC would certainly impact the con feel we're known for.

As for the board being open, please realize, all you need to do is ask. We aren't purposefully closed on things (for the most part (exceptions being things that aren't ready for public discussion yet, like guests we're working on, or locations, etc)), we just don't know what people are interested in. Asking questions is good... and we'll try our best to answer them anytime they come up! =)




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Offline TomtheFanboy

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Re: Portland Convention Center?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2008, 07:46:45 am »
Asking questions is good... and we'll try our best to answer them anytime they come up! =)

Is trufax.
Just make sure you give them time to answer. ;)
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