Im thinking it was banned more for the affiliation to pedophilia than anything else. It could be very bad for Kumoricon if people started thinking they were okay with such concepts.
We encountered a couple of costumes with string bikinis, and in each case hawkeye was the one to handle it. Each was deemed acceptable due to our own rules of allowing a costume which covers more then 60% of the body.Quoted for the effin' truth.
and as to the pedobear thing, the topic is dead but I will say this, One picture of that bear around children with kumoricon badges getting to the local papers and kumoricon would be GONE. DONE. FINISHED! so to put it bluntly, if you are so angry about having to change costumes, tough. Its better to upset one attendee and keep the con going then to please the one attendee and ruin it for EVERYONE!
I honestly don't see how, or that anyone would actually know who it was other than internet geeks. Besides, we had people playing characters who do far worse.
I honestly don't see how, or that anyone would actually know who it was other than internet geeks. Besides, we had people playing characters who do far worse.
Well consider this Mr. Kimura while a very scary person, has a happy marige with wife and kids, and is only used for a comical sense and is on a far leser known level than that of Pedobear.
Now Pedobear is actualy more well known by a lot of people and although he is also used for comedy and what not the diffrence is he actualy DOES try to rape the children, (sorry if thats offensive) unlike Kimura who just dreams about it... while some may not reckognize him if it was a simple bear costume, if perhaps they put a signe around their neck claiming they were Pedobear, or if the bear costume was simpley good enough people could tell, then thats a big problem considering who Pedobear is....
While other costumes are inapropriat, and possibley of a character that is a killer, or commits other horrid crimes, can also be bad, its really consideration of what the public deems worthy of being a horrid horrid thing to dress up as... the con simply has little control of how the public reacts to these things, they just abide by the general rules so they can keep going. as said before if a picture of a kid around some one reckognizabley dressed as Pedobear gets realsed to the public then kumoricon is gone for good.
Godwin's is overused, and used incorrectly in this context. I wasn't comparing anyone *to* fascists (which is what it says, not just Nazis), I was pointing out that people *have* done those uniforms and costumes inspired by them. Also it wasn't an arguement, it was a discussion.
There *are* Nazis in anime, you realize. FMA and Hellsing are two such series, and those are both insanely popular to cosplay. But I don't see anyone worrying that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League is going to shut us down.
Darnnit, according to forum rules about PG-13 we should have even be discussing Pedo-things. The reason the other thread got yanked was due to discussion of Pedo activities on a PG-13 board. Maybe 'if the name of your character cannot be said in a PG-13 setting, then NO' might be a good place to start with the rule.
But I'm saying that a cosplayer of a Nazi character would raise a hell of a lot more red flags with the general populace than "someone dressed as a bear" if the picture appeared in the paper. Everyone knows what Nazis are. Very few people who don't go online know what Pedobear is.
Darnnit, according to forum rules about PG-13 we should have even be discussing Pedo-things. The reason the other thread got yanked was due to discussion of Pedo activities on a PG-13 board. Maybe 'if the name of your character cannot be said in a PG-13 setting, then NO' might be a good place to start with the rule.
You can't even *SAY* "pedo" in a pg-13 setting? I'm positive you can, otherwise those Movies of the Week wouldn't be rated PG-13 and those often deal with a hell of a lot worse.
Personally I was very happy that pedobear was banned. (its personal, dont ask. Id rather keep my oppinions to my self on the forum. Message me if you want personal oppinions)
I do know of another costume as well that was banned, but that was a huge dress code violation. A young lady dressed as Nyu/Lucy from Elfen Lied wasnt wearing enough bandages to be deemed public.
In reading the posts here, I think there is a perception divide about what Kumoricon is about.
I read the side who is pro-pedo-bear costume knows that the gimmik is a ridiculous joke on 4chan. They perceive the running gag as a component of the fan culture and group it in the same vein as OS-tans, internet memes and the like. They know that there is far more chance that the person cosplaying PB is along for the joke of it and shares a common theme of fandom, usually 4chan. So Kumoricon is an event for the fans, so things the fans enjoy should be fine especially when they see other kinds of cosplayers in similar tones.
The other side is the con Covering their Butts; the convention isn't just for existing fans, but for parents of little fans. It's a very general audience venture so jokes and gimmiks that exist inside of the fandom aren't seen with their intent, only the black-and-white context of the joke which is often exceptionally crude and unfunny (Think "bi*** get back in the kitchen and make me some chicken pot pie!" you are likely to get the joke, but tell that to a woman off the street and you'll probably have some painful experiences). Because of this, the staff have to dilute some aspects of the fandom to make it 'edible.' So it then isn't an event for *the* fans, but it's an event for the public where the fans are the bulk of the attendees.
That's my readings of this anyway. Personally I'm divided, I get #2 but have mixed feelings about becoming so generic with who the event is aimed at, that it loses it's identity. We're still small enough (not for long though T_T) that with #2 we still are in touch with #1; it's that balance which is difficult.
But I'm saying that a cosplayer of a Nazi character would raise a hell of a lot more red flags with the general populace than "someone dressed as a bear" if the picture appeared in the paper. Everyone knows what Nazis are. Very few people who don't go online know what Pedobear is.
We are not talking about general populace. We are talking about our attendees.
Also, is this theoretical situation okay:
Man walks down street full of general populace full of kids. They swarm to him and someone takes pics. These pics wind up on the internet and these innocent kids are now in pics where the implication is that the bear is about to try to do bad things to them
Personally I was very happy that pedobear was banned. (its personal, dont ask. Id rather keep my oppinions to my self on the forum. Message me if you want personal oppinions)
I do know of another costume as well that was banned, but that was a huge dress code violation. A young lady dressed as Nyu/Lucy from Elfen Lied wasnt wearing enough bandages to be deemed public.
Tears. I am crying tears of regret for not having seen this. See my avatar for the reason why.
Well, there are ways to deal with this divide. We DO have adult-only content. If people want 18+ Cosplay Events, Art Shows, meetups, etc, this can be done. We just need people willing to run them. *hinthint* And, well, we need more of our awesome Yojis to check IDs and keep the kiddies away.
In truth, we try to play to many audiences. Kids, teens, adults, parents. Also, anime fans, lolis, goth lolis, jpop fans, live action fans, free-sake-tasting fans, even those freaky people who like to play Go. We can have balance, as long as people are being jerks about it and are respectfull of the fact that we do need to cover our butts and protect minors.
I'd love to see us have more 18+ (and 21+) programming.
Well, there are ways to deal with this divide. We DO have adult-only content. If people want 18+ Cosplay Events, Art Shows, meetups, etc, this can be done. We just need people willing to run them. *hinthint* And, well, we need more of our awesome Yojis to check IDs and keep the kiddies away.
In truth, we try to play to many audiences. Kids, teens, adults, parents. Also, anime fans, lolis, goth lolis, jpop fans, live action fans, free-sake-tasting fans, even those freaky people who like to play Go. We can have balance, as long as people are being jerks about it and are respectfull of the fact that we do need to cover our butts and protect minors.
I'd love to see us have more 18+ (and 21+) programming.
Every time I try to think up a means to gradiate the attendees for difference groups it always comes up with holes. :( With this kind of thing I suck and would just suggest if people want their cake and be able to eat it they should make a 16+ or 18+ only convention, or find facilities which offer 3 usable building spaces: 1 for general con (games, video rooms, etc), 2. dealer room, 3. 17+/18+/whatever for all the relevant stuff. Each solution comes with some nasty problems though :(
And as far as people who run the oddball panels... eh I'm not very diverse (http://scmb.sakuracon.org/viewtopic.php?t=15668) in what I can host. :)
We've done pretty well with having PG-13 space and 18+ space I think. I do think that 18+ cons are a good idea, though. Yaoi-con is 18+ for, well, obvious reasons. Though, even there we can't have nakkie men running through the halls as it's public space.
Public space and not freaking out the hotel are both things we need to consider. On an mailing list for con organizers some people were talking about 2 months back about how the hotel freaked over content a panel alledgely had and not only can they not renew thier contract at that venue, they have been blacklisted from every hotel in the city. Last I heard the con had no options but to shut down. Kcon so far has a very good relationship with the hotels in Portland we need to preserve that. We get known as trouble makers and if we are lucky we only need to deal with paying more for venuew space. If we are unlucky ... This isn't just an issue of how big the con is getting. If we were smaller we'd be even more vulnerable to certain problems.
i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about
We've done pretty well with having PG-13 space and 18+ space I think. I do think that 18+ cons are a good idea, though. Yaoi-con is 18+ for, well, obvious reasons. Though, even there we can't have nakkie men running through the halls as it's public space.
Public space and not freaking out the hotel are both things we need to consider. On an mailing list for con organizers some people were talking about 2 months back about how the hotel freaked over content a panel alledgely had and not only can they not renew thier contract at that venue, they have been blacklisted from every hotel in the city. Last I heard the con had no options but to shut down. Kcon so far has a very good relationship with the hotels in Portland we need to preserve that. We get known as trouble makers and if we are lucky we only need to deal with paying more for venuew space. If we are unlucky ... This isn't just an issue of how big the con is getting. If we were smaller we'd be even more vulnerable to certain problems.
That actually sounds suspiciously like AX some years ago where a dealer sold some "questionable" goods to a minor and got the whole lot in trouble. Granted, AX is a terrible convention >:(
When I mention 18+ con, I don't mean pr0n only, but space which is less sensitive to the mediums which the fans choose to express (language, wear, etc).
Another point which just crossed my mind with respect to the news paper example is that the media will blow anything they can out of proportion wherever possible. If it isn't the end of the world, it isn't going to sell. "Teddy bear with a group of kids" (what it appears to a normie) will be sold to the masses as, "Japanese cartoon convention promotes pedophilia with mascot" or something similar. When you're trying to keep a large event going with the traditional masses looming your perimiter you have to tread very carefully lest you step on a landmine :(
i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about
i too am happy that it was banned, I firmly belive some things should not be joked about
I firmly believe that everything should be joked about.
Just to add to the nazi vs. pb debate: Neo-Nazis and the like have rights in this country. Pedophiles, not so much.
Im just curious... is this the nazi everyone is talking about?I don't know about anyone else, but no, the person I saw was female and wearing tan/olive colors.
[PICTURE!]
I believe that everyone here understands that no one's opinion on the subject will change, and that the only opinion that matters, that of Altonimbus Entertainment, will not change.
This does not need to be discussed any further.
I believe that everyone here understands that no one's opinion on the subject will change, and that the only opinion that matters, that of Altonimbus Entertainment, will not change.Requoting myself as to note that the contents of my quote are not to be underestimated.
This does not need to be discussed any further.
Well, it'd be nice to see a more complete list of what you consider inappropiate costumes, and open that for discussion. Especially since this came down to a specific character who would only be inappropiate if the viewer had knowledge of the character rather than what the character looks/dresses like.
I know some cons banned costumes like Kekko Kamen because the character is naked and most cosplayers wear skin-colored body suits, but to me a body suit is still sufficient coverage. The appearence of nudity isn't the same as actual nudity, after all.
As has been said before. Since this cosplayer decided to push the issue, clearer rules will need to be made.
Secondly, I wore my costume with the intent to have fun and such. I proudly wore it under the assumption that if people from the con had an issue, they would assign a yojimbo or tell me to only wear it to the 18+ panels, or after minors were no longer permitted.. Instead i was told to "remove my costume or the police would be called".
Secondly, I wore my costume with the intent to have fun and such. I proudly wore it under the assumption that if people from the con had an issue, they would assign a yojimbo or tell me to only wear it to the 18+ panels, or after minors were no longer permitted.. Instead i was told to "remove my costume or the police would be called".
Ok, there's something I want to add to this because it has been bothering me. The day you were wearing the costume, which I assume was Saturday (all the days are just blurring together for me), a person in your group came up to me at info desk to complain. This person stated that you were being given a hard time by Yojimbo for being "pedobear" when really you weren't here with the intention of being "pedobear". Your costume was a real character from a real anime, and he listed it, but I don't remember exactly what was referenced. I pointed this individual to the Yojimbo office, because this issue was not something I had power over.
But you were pedobear. You knew what you were doing, and you knew people might take issue with it. And when stuff started hitting the fan, people with you started lying to members of staff in an effort to convince us to not have your costume banned.
When you wear a risky cosplay or premeditate to do something that people at the convention may take issue with, BE PREPARED FOR THE CONSEQUENCES.
So, take this and learn from it, and know that those on the board definitely will as well.
Alright, I apologize, there was apparently more than one incident.
this is funny to me because nobody did this "in my group". In actuality, I was staying on the 7th floor. and AFTER being banned.. maybe an hour or 2 later.. My girlfriend and I rode up the elevators in normal clothes.. and saw the cosplayer in question about ready to ride down. I said, "PEDOBEAR!" and he gave a 2 thumbs up.. then I said "You better watch it dude, I wore the same costume and they banned me 15minutes from hitting the bottom floor." He shrugged and entered the elevator.. his company he had with him were shocked when I said I was banned. He had a PedoBear seal of approval with him as well.
Let this be an end to the discussion please for all involved, it is starting to get out of hand again.
Let this be an end to the discussion please for all involved, it is starting to get out of hand again.
Yes, I would like to delve further into the controversial outfits.. and my feelings aside, I think we have been informed well enough that PedoBear was banned.. Do you know of any other cosplay that was under the watchful eye of the staff? Size issues? Lack of clothing? Too risque? Is gore ever a factor that may result in a ban?
we joke about my friend's traumatic brain injury and partial lobectomy. Just because people joke about it does not mean they realize that it is serious. My friend would have half a mind to tell you herself.
I just want to give my opinion on the whole Nazi thing. As someone who comes from a strong Jewish background, I would be EXTREMELY offended if ANYONE cosplayed as a Nazi. The only exception for me would be if they were from Hellsing or something, but only because I like that anime, but even then I would still be a little put off. But I would definitely say something to someone if anybody cosplayed as a straight-up, non-anime Nazi.
As someone who comes from a strong Jewish background, I would be EXTREMELY offended if ANYONE cosplayed as a Nazi. The only exception for me would be if they were from Hellsing or something, but only because I like that anime
^ The photos are a good idea. Like, I know Pedobear, but I looked up pictures of Nyuu/Lucy and couldn't find anything that looked even remotely problematic. So, was it an alternate outfit or something? I don't know anything about the show.
^ The photos are a good idea. Like, I know Pedobear, but I looked up pictures of Nyuu/Lucy and couldn't find anything that looked even remotely problematic. So, was it an alternate outfit or something? I don't know anything about the show.
I never said "if it were from Hellsing then it would be OK". If what I said implied that then I apologize, let me clarify. If it's a Nazi from Hellsing or some other anime with Nazis', then I would be less offended and put-off. Also, I wouldn't do anything about it since it's from an anime and Kumoricon is an anime convention after all. In fact, if it was a Hellsing Nazi, then I probably wouldn't care at all since the villians in Hellsing are almost as badass as the main characters and I can understand someone cosplaying as them. And it does make sense to think it's OK if it's from Hellsing because the reasons for the costume are different. If someone is cosplaying as Major Rip Van Winkle, then obviously the person thinks that character is totally boss, which I agree with, she is. However, if someone was cosplaying Hitler, then obviously they are either a Neo-Nazi, or they are doing it just to offend someone, and they would succeed spectacularly.As someone who comes from a strong Jewish background, I would be EXTREMELY offended if ANYONE cosplayed as a Nazi. The only exception for me would be if they were from Hellsing or something, but only because I like that anime
When it comes to definie what is acceptable and unacceptable it seems that the views of patrons involved only construes things even further.
I can see why that would offend you.. but 'if t were from Hellsing' making it okay makes no sense.
I never said "if it were from Hellsing then it would be OK". If what I said implied that then I apologize, let me clarify. If it's a Nazi from Hellsing or some other anime with Nazis', then I would be less offended and put-off. Also, I wouldn't do anything about it since it's from an anime and Kumoricon is an anime convention after all. In fact, if it was a Hellsing Nazi, then I probably wouldn't care at all since the villians in Hellsing are almost as badass as the main characters and I can understand someone cosplaying as them. And it does make sense to think it's OK if it's from Hellsing because the reasons for the costume are different. If someone is cosplaying as Major Rip Van Winkle, then obviously the person thinks that character is totally boss, which I agree with, she is. However, if someone was cosplaying Hitler, then obviously they are either a Neo-Nazi, or they are doing it just to offend someone, and they would succeed spectacularly.As someone who comes from a strong Jewish background, I would be EXTREMELY offended if ANYONE cosplayed as a Nazi. The only exception for me would be if they were from Hellsing or something, but only because I like that anime
When it comes to definie what is acceptable and unacceptable it seems that the views of patrons involved only construes things even further.
I can see why that would offend you.. but 'if t were from Hellsing' making it okay makes no sense.
I don't care if Hitler is a legitimate anime character, it's still incredibly offensive and I doubt many people know about that anime/manga anyways. As for the other guy, .......bah why do I even try, I quit. Every time I say something someone is just gonna contradict me for arguments sake. You wanna cosplay as a Nazi, fine. But don't expect me to not say anything about it. I mean, my great-grandfather was in Auschwitz, and I'm sure at least one person staying in the hotel or just passing by was in WWII or had their lives greatly affected by it and would also be offended by seeing a Swastika on someone's chest, whether they're from Hellsing or not.
Godwin's law, much?
words
Where do you keep getting this from? There are no COMPARASIONS to Nazis or facism any place in this thread, and THAT'S what Godwin's is. Not MENTIONING Nazis in a place where it's suitable to mention them!
Plus I'm sick of that "law" any way. Sometimes a comparasion *is* valid, and the other person shouldn't gleefully decree "you lose! You mentioned Nazis!" with clinging to that stupid insipid "law" as their excuse.
A way I get around most "ZOMG GODWINGODWINGODWINGODWINGODWIN" is to switch to Stalin-Russia. Quite a bit of the same garbage, different nation. The normies who would default to calling godwin go in to an infitie loop.
Also, who can tell me what meme this is?
[Mod Edit - We are not going there.]
A way I get around most "ZOMG GODWINGODWINGODWINGODWINGODWIN" is to switch to Stalin-Russia. Quite a bit of the same garbage, different nation. The normies who would default to calling godwin go in to an infitie loop.
Also, who can tell me what meme this is?
[Mod Edit - We are not going there.]
That is less well known and doesn't have the specific characteristics of PedoBear. However, we are not going there. If this thread starts getting into topics like that fetish I will LOCK this thread. I am highly tempted to lock this overnight and unlock it when I can babysit it in the morning.
there are those of us who are DEEPLY offended with Jewish roots
Us handicapped and gay folk, two things that Hitler would have had my nuts for, were also popular targets at the time.there are those of us who are DEEPLY offended with Jewish roots
And, y'know, everyone ELSE too. People tend to forget that Jews weren't the only victims.
Good reminders. Especialy the take on our 'buddy' Stalin.there are those of us who are DEEPLY offended with Jewish rootsAnd, y'know, everyone ELSE too. People tend to forget that Jews weren't the only victims.
That is less well known and doesn't have the specific characteristics of PedoBear. However, we are going going there. If this thread starts getting into topics like that fetish I will LOCK this thread. I am highly tempted to lock this overnight and unlock it when I can babysit it in the morning.
And yet Horse Man didn't get the boot? That costume was, according to my lunch lady (who knows the guy under the mask, small world huh?) originally supposed to be PonyStalker of 4chan fame. I understand that Pedobear should/could/had better be friggin' banned, but then why not put the boot on all the animal-themed 4chan memes? They're all just as bad. As XFD said, some of those things can be seriously freaking wierd, disgusting and overall just not child-appropriate.
And yet Horse Man didn't get the boot? That costume was, according to my lunch lady (who knows the guy under the mask, small world huh?) originally supposed to be PonyStalker of 4chan fame. I understand that Pedobear should/could/had better be friggin' banned, but then why not put the boot on all the animal-themed 4chan memes? They're all just as bad. As XFD said, some of those things can be seriously freaking wierd, disgusting and overall just not child-appropriate.
Hmm, I could have sworn that the stalker animal meme was PonyStalker... Alright, thank you! Slight faux pas on my part.
Either way, why not ban all of the particularly infamous memes? Not anything like the Rickroll or loosing the game, but the really terrible ones.
Although that makes me wonder how someone would go about doing a 50 Hitler post IRL. The question still stands, though!
Except that Pedobear is *also* not a real person (or real bear).
And yet Horse Man didn't get the boot? That costume was, according to my lunch lady (who knows the guy under the mask, small world huh?) originally supposed to be PonyStalker of 4chan fame. I understand that Pedobear should/could/had better be friggin' banned, but then why not put the boot on all the animal-themed 4chan memes? They're all just as bad. As XFD said, some of those things can be seriously freaking wierd, disgusting and overall just not child-appropriate.
Except that Pedobear is *also* not a real person (or real bear).
Sure, in certain situations the jokes may be funny, but that does not excuse the joke to be said anywhere/anytime. *shrug*
Except that Pedobear is *also* not a real person (or real bear).
Sure, in certain situations the jokes may be funny, but that does not excuse the joke to be said anywhere/anytime. *shrug*
Not everyone will find a joke funny. you can't please everyone. In my PedoBear outfit I asked if I could come out at the 18+ events or after hours when minors were not permitted. I would think that PG13 would not apply.. the answer was FIRMLY.. "NO!" no budging, no give at all. no negotiations.
PS: SpearXXI, were you the photographer with the Turks Coffee vest?
Ok, think of it this way. 18+ panels are such because of the content the United States declares not fit for minors under 18. Is the idea of pedophilia ok for ANY age? NO. I agree with the con here. If we are going to ban a costume for pedophilia than it needs to be banned all around.
Ok, think of it this way. 18+ panels are such because of the content the United States declares not fit for minors under 18. Is the idea of pedophilia ok for ANY age? NO. I agree with the con here. If we are going to ban a costume for pedophilia than it needs to be banned all around.
Since pedophilia isn't the act, you're advocating punishment for thought crime.
That's double-plus ungood :(
This thread makes me sad, one side refuses to listen to the arguments of a joke and think of it as a real live creature, the other side points out glaring holes in the argument and gets no intelligent feedback or comments (barring one or two).
And yet Horse Man didn't get the boot? That costume was, according to my lunch lady (who knows the guy under the mask, small world huh?) originally supposed to be PonyStalker of 4chan fame. I understand that Pedobear should/could/had better be friggin' banned, but then why not put the boot on all the animal-themed 4chan memes? They're all just as bad. As XFD said, some of those things can be seriously freaking wierd, disgusting and overall just not child-appropriate.
And yet Horse Man didn't get the boot? That costume was, according to my lunch lady (who knows the guy under the mask, small world huh?) originally supposed to be PonyStalker of 4chan fame. I understand that Pedobear should/could/had better be friggin' banned, but then why not put the boot on all the animal-themed 4chan memes? They're all just as bad. As XFD said, some of those things can be seriously freaking wierd, disgusting and overall just not child-appropriate.
*cough cough*
I don't know who your lunch lady is, but Horse Man isn't themed after some stupid 4chan meme.
The original Pony-Stalker came from Full Metal Panic Fumoffu. He gave girls pony tails, and said "pony pony pony"
Horse Man was an accidental costume, that turned into a really fun time for most people involved. Look into a series of short films called "RABBITS" to see where parts of the character came from. Also, Donnie Darko's Frank was inspirational.
Just because I wore a damn horse mask doesn't mean that I was from 4chan. Horse Man is Horse Man, and that's all.
I don't need 4chan to be creative for me.
I don't know who your lunch lady is, but Horse Man isn't themed after some stupid 4chan meme.
The original Pony-Stalker came from Full Metal Panic Fumoffu. He gave girls pony tails, and said "pony pony pony"
Horse Man was an accidental costume, that turned into a really fun time for most people involved. Look into a series of short films called "RABBITS" to see where parts of the character came from. Also, Donnie Darko's Frank was inspirational.
Just because I wore a damn horse mask doesn't mean that I was from 4chan. Horse Man is Horse Man, and that's all.
I don't need 4chan to be creative for me.
Ok, think of it this way. 18+ panels are such because of the content the United States declares not fit for minors under 18. Is the idea of pedophilia ok for ANY age? NO. I agree with the con here. If we are going to ban a costume for pedophilia than it needs to be banned all around.
It was supposed to be funny and random, and it worked well.
Alright, you know what, I'm out of here. I think we're all basically agreeing here. No Pedobear, keep the con clean, all that.
Alright, you know what, I'm out of here. I think we're all basically agreeing here. No Pedobear, keep the con clean, all that.
I think you miss the purpose of this thread. Please go back and reread if necessary.. I find it mildly offensive that you assume that because you are leaving you get to make 'final judgment' on the indirect topic.
Requesting this thread to be locked permanently.